Joy and button alignment and of other control panel questions

[Mr Kray]

Hi Everyone,

I'm redesigning my control panel and when looking through some other threads I started to question a couple of my original design plans.

I have a couple of questions but my main one is..

I did a few searches and read in a thread that you should align the joysticks so they point towards the monitor otherwise players trying pushing up but instead push diagonally. Just wanted a bit more clarification on this.. should up on the joystick be perpendicular to the monitor or should it point to the midpoint of the bottom edge of the monitor?

Also with the buttons, I like the curved layout where the middle buttons (on a standard 6 button layout) are slightly higher than the outer ones, I'm set on this but on my current design the whole set are angled to the left (kinda ergonomic for the angle of your arm); I read that this may end up feeling cramped if you have no space next to the other player and can't put your elbow to the side as much.

What are the opinions on this? My current design is 2 player and outlined below with my ideas and some other questions..

My control panel is currently 1000x400mm but I want to cut it down to about 840x350 (Although I don't mind keeping it at 400).

The current design is 2 players with 2 joysticks per play and space for a 3" trackball in the middle.

the 2 joysticks are one wico 8-way on the left of 7 buttons and one SNK rotary on the right.. This allows for normal games, dual joystick games and rotary games (but you have to switch hands)

I was thinking of adding buttons to the right of the rotaries so they can be used as 3 and 4 player joysticks but I'm not sure if it will make the panel to cramped or cause problems for using the trackball effectively.

Any thoughts on this?

Thanks everyone,

Mr Kray

[Fozzy The Bear]

should up on the joystick be perpendicular to the monitor or should it point to the midpoint of the bottom edge of the monitor?

The sticks should be perpendicular to the monitor.... Otherwise they just feel wrong while you're playing. Up and down on the monitor should be in the same plane as up and down on the stick. If they're not set that way, it's not even obvious which direction is up and down on the stick, because from the top of a panel there are no clues to that. Even if you put a graphic design on the panel to indicate it, it'd feel unnatural to play them if they're not square on to the monitor face.

Also with the buttons, I like the curved layout where the middle buttons (on a standard 6 button layout) are slightly higher than the outer ones, I'm set on this but on my current design the whole set are angled to the left (kinda ergonomic for the angle of your arm); I read that this may end up feeling cramped if you have no space next to the other player and can't put your elbow to the side as much.

Your first idea here is the right one..... DONT angle the buttons like that... Again it just feels wrong. Real arcade machines don't have them angled the way you suggest in the second part of that.

the 2 joysticks are one wico 8-way on the left of 7 buttons and one SNK rotary on the right.. This allows for normal games, dual joystick games and rotary games (but you have to switch hands)

Absolute overkill..... Unless you're very set on and have very specific games that you must play on two sticks and must play on two sticks with two players at the same time then ditch this idea altogether. It's just needless excess otherwise.

Also ask yourself how many times you're going to be playing 4 player games. That is games that have 4 players playing at the same time. There are actually not that many games that even have four players.

90% of the time it's going to be just you playing... think long and hard before you build what kind of sounds like a Frankenpanel.

Just my 5 cents...

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)

[isucamper]

My CP goals are eerily similar to yours.  I started out thinking a 2 joystick CP would be enough, but both Ikari Warriors and Smash TV were big games for me and my brother when we were kids, so I've been struggling to come up with a design that would use 2 Ultimarc 360s and 2 Rotaries and include support for rotary games, 2 player dual stick games, and 4 player games... all while keeping the length small enough that the whole CP is not obnoxiously large.

Each iteration I've come up with is a bit cleaner than the last, but Fozzy's right.  Your gonna have to sacrafice some aesthtics and ergonomics if you want to get it to fit. 

When I get home tonight I'll post some of my design iterations in this thread.  My goal has been to keep it under 40 inches.

[Stub]

  I also am going with 2 sticks for player one and two for smash tv and tank. I can still make it look nice enough, but it's there to be played. Dont listen to people down playing it. If you design it so that it is functional and does not cramp the useage of other controles go for it.

  I have been trying to decide on sticks. I was going to go your way, but with bender's adaption of the u360 for rotary I believe one way or another I will achieve that mod myself in time. So I am trying to find an analog stick with a topfire and trigger for the right. There are several out there, but I am looking for small ones that will not dominate my cab. The tron and most flight sticks are rather tall.

[isucamper]

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f298/isucamper/cp1.jpgAfter messing with several different design tools (thanks to arzoo for pointing me towards MS Visio and getting me started with his Arcade Addiction design), I came up with this design.  The two inner sticks are P1 and P2 and they are U360s.  These sticks are the focus of the CP as I will be playing a lot of fighting games.  The two outer sticks are rotaries.  It was important to NOT angle the outer sticks so they could also be used for 2 player dual stick games like Smash TV.  On the rare occasion that I would have enough friends over to play 4 player games, this CP would support it and players 3 and 4 would have the option to sit at the front of the panel along side players 1 and 2 (though it would be cramped and they'd have to reach behind their sticks to get to their buttons) or they could sit at the side of the panel.  If they sat at the side, player 3 (on the left) would have to play right handed.   A sacrifice to be sure, but 4 player games will be rare and they aren't the main focus of my cab.

I chose only 3 buttons for players 3 and 4 because, by my count, there are only two 4 player arcade games that use more than that; the two Capcom D&D fighters.  If I ever get 4 people playing those games, I figured I could come up with some clever button mapping using the admin buttons at the top of the panel for their menu buttons. 

It was my first try and there was a lot of stuff that bothered me about it so I kept playing around with it and came up with:

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f298/isucamper/cp2.jpgBy pulling the track ball down I was able to remove a few buttons and get some more space in between player 1 and player 2.  Also, by this time I had decided on a TRON theme and added an 8 way topfire button adjacent from the spinner.  Now I was worried that the leftmost two joysticks were too close together, and I was completely out of room unless I wanted to sacrifice the symmetry of having the trackball directly in the middle of the panel, so I did this:

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f298/isucamper/cp3.jpgHad to sacrifice having the two leftmost sticks being level with each other, which might make dual stick games a little weird, but I was able to get more space between the sticks and still give player 3 the option to sit at the side of the cab during a 4 player game.  There's still a lot about it I'm unsure of.  For instance, I'm worried about player 2 during Ikari Warriors using the rightmost stick... not sure what buttons he will use or how it will feel.  Also, the trackball is pretty darn crowded. 

So I'm not completely happy with where I ended up, but I've decided to wait until I can prototype some of these ideas and see how they work before wasting anymore time and energy thinking about it. 

I did all this with the free trial version of Visio which lasts like 2 months.  If anyone wants any of my templates send me a pm.  All of these CPs are 40 inches long.

[MiKman]

what are the dimensions of your panel? I currently have a 2 player but I wan't to do exactly what you have done here.  4 player panel with option for 2 play smash tv, but I don't want to redo the entire panel, just the top would be ideal...

[Mr Kray]

From the images isucamper has supplied it looks like his panel is 40" x 17", each of the squares on the grid are half an inch.

I like what you've done isucamper, I'm still working on the layout of mine and I've been a bit busy the last couple of weeks so I haven't been able to get much done in the way of control panel layout (been concentrating on building the actual cabinet), but I'll reply again tonight when I've had a bit of a play around with some ideas.

[paigeoliver]

Grown men don't like playing 4 player games all together at the same time. I'd forget all about a 4-player panel unless you have at least 3 preteen children. 4 player games out in the wild actually very rarely saw actual 4 player action.

Your vision of you and all your buddies going through TMNT or whatnot is something that might happen 1 time.

My current machine DOES have sticks on both sides of each button bank for 2 player Smash TV, however I didn't actually drill that panel (traded for it), and I wouldn't have designed it that way myself. It has been over a year and the dual sticks have never seen use in that manner.

Also, if you wish do play dualjoy games DO NOT mismatch the types of sticks that will be in each hand. Dualjoy games are way harder with mismatched sticks. This is the main reason why my player 1 currently has a pair of Perfect 360s with stiff springs and robotron handles, while player 2 has a pair of supers. I originally tried it where each player had the (way superior) p360 with Robotron handle as their main joy and a Super as the secondary and robotron and such were MUCH harder to play. I also have the same experience trying to mix a Topfire stick with a super and ended up going with a pair of topfire sticks on the project, even though the second stick didn't need the topfire function.

[Vash]

Grown men don't like playing 4 player games all together at the same time.

Uhhh...what?  First of all, I'm not sure at what junction in life it suddenly becomes inappropriate or awkward to play a four player game together, and second (and most importantly) that's entirely untrue.  What about Smash Brothers, Mario Kart, and Halo?  Goldeneye?  While those may not be arcade games, I tend to think whatever stigma 'grown men' might have towards playing games with their buddies is non-existent.  It might be your personal preference, but don't knock it like it's something horribly immature or inappropriate.  You may just come off as a little bit pretentious if you do.

[paigeoliver]

I was talking about standup arcade games, not console games. Believe me, getting 4 grown men to squeeze around a Sunset Riders machine is harder than you think it is, and isn't likely to be repeated. In 8 years of being involved in this hobby, after having owned multiple 4 player machines and been to many auctions and to the game rooms of many collectors I have seen 4 grown men play a 4 player upright one time, and it was a Pong and it was a 60 second game.

Grown men don't like playing 4 player games all together at the same time.

Uhhh...what?  First of all, I'm not sure at what junction in life it suddenly becomes inappropriate or awkward to play a four player game together, and second (and most importantly) that's entirely untrue.  What about Smash Brothers, Mario Kart, and Halo?  Goldeneye?  While those may not be arcade games, I tend to think whatever stigma 'grown men' might have towards playing games with their buddies is non-existent.  It might be your personal preference, but don't knock it like it's something horribly immature or inappropriate.  You may just come off as a little bit pretentious if you do.

[Mr Kray]

While I understand the logistical issues of fitting 4 grown men around a cabinet, I don't think the TMNT control panel was all that thin (although I don't know the exact dimensions and I'm going from memory) and the third and forth players where at a bit of an angle thereby increasing the space for the players.

Also, you seem to be talking about commercial arcades - as you mention the Sunset Riders machine - which I assume would be designed to minimise floor space so there is more chance an arcade will install it.

The benefit of building our own cabinets is that we can do things that would not have been appropriate in a commercial design, from making cramped cabinets to save space to the over-sized control panel monstrosities you see around the forum quite regularly. - If you have the money and more importantly the space, you can have a large monitor and an equally large control panel to allow 4 grown men room to breath.

Now, I don't know how old you are but I'm 28 and my childhood arcade game memories are heavily based around the games from the late 80's to mid 90's and one huge aspect of that was 4 player games like TMNT, Dungeons and Dragons, etc. I can assure you that my friends will have no issues cramming around a cabinet to get in on some 4 player action.

Although I have a little issue with you stating your opinions as if they are facts, I do concede that you have more experience than I (I do take your comments on board and they have made me rethink a few things) and I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just saying that just because your friends don't like rubbing thighs for a bit of 4 player action doesn't mean mine won't! 

Having said that, I'm not sure about the 4 player route anyway, I like the idea that someone mentioned on another thread of having a couple of USB ports and some game pads to allow the third and fourth player to join in.

I do not want a 5 foot wide control panel with everything under the sun hooked up, but I do have a number of games as a priority, they are:

Smash TV
Ikari Warriors
Final Fight
TMNT
Marble Madness
Street Fighter
Fatal Fury

Unfortunately this poses issues as some of my favourite games are the first two and both pose issues, especially when combined with Marble Madness.

I'm toying with the idea of a modular design or just having a replaceable control panel (which my cabint design incorporates anyway for other reasons) so that I can play my favourites and not have a cramped control panel.

I don't have a mock up of my latest ideas yet, but here is an image of my original layout done in SketchUp...

Things to note:

• The squares up and to the right of the buttons are where the SNK Rotaries are to go, but I have finished the SketchUp models of them yet.
• Obviously the middle is the trackball.
• Ignore the lines running from back to front on either side they were initial ideas on where the sides would be, that's probably going to change
• The angled buttons are too close together
• The angled buttons are meant to be a bit more ergonomic
• The buttons have a pinky button instead of a thumb button for SNK games
• This also allows for the 5th, 6th, and pinky button to be remapped and used with the rotary joystick for Ikari warriors etc. - But joystick would be in right hand, button bashing with the left
• Normal Wico 8-way leaf for left joystick was to be used with rotary for dual joy games

Now in light of what you've said (paigeoliver) regarding the mismatching of joysticks for dual stick games, I would have thought it wouldn't be too bad for a game such as Smash TV in which you aren't trying to fully coordinate the joysticks (they are often moving in opposite directions etc.) like you might with other games.

What do you think? - I might add that I haven't played any other dual joystick games and I'm not that fussed if it's a hindrance on them as long as it isn't too much of a hindrance in Smash TV.

Anyone have any suggestions on the spacing of controls? How much space do you need around the trackball, I don't play Golden Tee but I would play bowling games.

[lanman31337]

Grown men don't like playing 4 player games all together at the same time. .

I guess all the people jammed around the 6 player x-men didn't like it either.  Maybe my friends and I aren't grown men either, but we sure do play a lot of Simpsons, TMNT, and Gauntlet.

[Mr Kray]

Okay so it seems I'm not getting any responses to my long-winded post. 

Or maybe no one is responding because my thread was taking over by the is-a-4p-control-panel-really-worth-it argument.

Either way I have a 5 simple questions I need answered so I can proceed with my cp and I hope the previous 'discussion' can be ignored so we can move on!

1. How much space do you need inside the control panel - Just enough to fit the trackball or do you need a little more? (I would say what depth but every seems to think that means the size from front to back)

2. How much space do you need around the trackball to take into account follow-through from whacking it in bowling games?
    - I'm mainly worried about the distance between the trackball and the 2p joystick.

3. I'm using 18mm (3/4"?) MDF and some plexi (not sure the thickness yet), should I get a normal trackball, high-lip trackball or highball trackball?

4. Does the highball trackball really come of the rollers that much?
    - At the moment I'm leaning towards the high-lip rather than highball for this reason.

5. Can anyone tell me the standard six button layout for arcades, specifically I'm talking about how far the buttons are apart horizontally, either from edge to edge or from centre to centre.
    - I'm going for the six buttons with the middle two raised slightly from the outer two look, similar to the picture in my previous post but without them all being angled to the left and not so close together.

I would take a tape measure to a real arcade but they've all shut down around my area. 

I've decided to go the modular route so most of the previous posts don't apply anymore.

I thank you all in advance so you feel obliged to respond! 

[Kajoq]

Here is the layout I really like:


Just ignore buttons 7 and 8.

[Stub]

This is the layout I am most likely going with. I have been testing it on a box for a week now, I think it is going to end up on my final CP build.

[Stub]

The hexagons are markers for the art to line up with.

[u_rebelscum]

1. Depends on which joysticks you get, which TB, and how you mount them.  I'll have to measure my CPs, but I think a few of my joysticks (perfect360s & supers with trigger-finger sticks hacked in, all routed bottom mounted) need more space under the CP than my TBs (mounting plates, no plexi).

3. High lip or high ball are better with the plexi, since the lips are 3/16" and 1/8" tall, respectively (vs the old 1/16").  I prefer the high lip, but others here love the high ball.  Most current models actually are highlip/highrim, and it's hard to find the "normal" 1/16" lip now a days.

4. Depends how you hit the ball.  It comes off too often (once a game is too much IMO) for me, but others here don't seem to have my problem.  I play with my hand a little above the CP and "roll" it over the ball; the high ball sides are too vertical so I knock the ball off the rollers. 

5. There is no "standard", rather a few different designs.  The ones already posted are good, IMO, even though I prefer straights.

[Mr Kray]

Stub - Your layout looks great, I can see your cabinet theme is in line with your avatar and it's going to look awesome when it's finished. 

Aesthetics aside, just wondering why you have buttons 7 and 8 so far away from the rest, although it looks great from an artistic point but it seems they wouldn't be very easy to use, have you made a test panel to see how easy it is?

Karoq - I think your layout is more in-line with what I had previously envisioned, I was going for the six button layout with the seventh sticking out on the right like you have.

I'm leaning towards a mash of both your designs, the button layout of Karoq's but with the joystick more vertically centred as in Stub's layout.

1. Depends on which joysticks you get, which TB, and how you mount them.  I'll have to measure my CPs, but I think a few of my joysticks (perfect360s & supers with trigger-finger sticks hacked in, all routed bottom mounted) need more space under the CP than my TBs (mounting plates, no plexi).

Thanks u_rebelscum, I should have posed the question better, I meant to ask if there was any reason to have the control panel box deeper than is required to allow the joysticks/trackball to work.

I have SNK rotaries and wico leaf switch joysticks which I'll be bottom mounting so I think I'll just make the cp box deep enough for everything to work and that's it.

3. High lip or high ball are better with the plexi, since the lips are 3/16" and 1/8" tall, respectively (vs the old 1/16").  I prefer the high lip, but others here love the high ball.  Most current models actually are highlip/highrim, and it's hard to find the "normal" 1/16" lip now a days.

4. Depends how you hit the ball.  It comes off too often (once a game is too much IMO) for me, but others here don't seem to have my problem.  I play with my hand a little above the CP and "roll" it over the ball; the high ball sides are too vertical so I knock the ball off the rollers. 

Looks like I'll be going for a highlip rather than highball then, I haven't used an arcade trackball in years and it seems the safer bet.

Thanks for all your help guys, most appreciated!   

[Stub]

Thanks, but you can credit pixlehugger for the logo. My attempts were much less classy.

As for the 7 and 8 buttons, I have been moving them closer and closer each revision, but I have this mocked up right now testing on games, and I like it. It is positioned as a thumb button.

I settled on this layout after a bit of thinking. It accommodates most of what I am looking to play. I play eighties classics which have one or two buttons, Smash Tv, MK with the 5 button X, SF and Marvel 6 button fighters, and I am emulating original PlayStation ( and it works oddly well with that button layout ). I cant think of any 4 button in a row games I care to play, but I can still play them with either the left or right four.

Actually button 7 works great for a thumb button but I an using it as the main button for the old button mashing type games with a single button because there is more room to smash it.

[u_rebelscum]

I meant to ask if there was any reason to have the control panel box deeper than is required to allow the joysticks/trackball to work.

I have SNK rotaries and wico leaf switch joysticks which I'll be bottom mounting so I think I'll just make the cp box deep enough for everything to work and that's it.

Okay, remember the joystick actuators move (especially that rotary unit on the bottom of the ls-30s).  I had add some space for my first CP with the trigger finger button joystick hack, as I didn't leave enough space for the wires to the buttons on the stick to come out the bottom of the hacked hollow stick.  It would have been barely enough if the stick didn't move, but of course it did and rubbed the wires on the bottom of the CP. 

The bottom of the TB doesn't move, but you might think about leaving enough space under to bottom light the TB.

(didn't measure my CPs last night, soory. )