Happ Pushbuttons... anything better out there...?

[RoninEditor]

I realize this might be blasphemy but I got some Happ pushbuttons (real, legit ones) but I'm wondering if there's anything else better out there, with a microswitch?  I didn't realize how "cheap" they seemed, like, hollow and 'plasticky', without much 'pop' to them like the good ol' days... honestly, they don't seem any different than X-Arcade ones.  I wanted to stay away from leaf switches but I hear these are the real deal, original buttons, maybe I'll have to try those.

In the meantime, is there anything more 'beefy', like, something with more pop to them?  These Happ springs seem way too loose or something, they almost echo, if that makes sense.  How are Ultimarc's and GrooveyGameGear's in comparison...?  Do they feel more 'legit'?

[Ginsu Victim]

Want pop? Use leafs.
I'm not even going to get into the rest of what you said ("blasphemy" is correct).

[RoninEditor]

LOL, okay, okay... just making sure I have the best microswitch buttons out there 

[Zobeid]

Want pop? Use leafs.

I'm not sure I understand what you guys mean by "pop".  I thought he meant the snap or click when the switch engages.  But that's exactly what you don't get with a leaf switch.  No click.

The strongest click I've seen yet is from Zippy microswitches.  They are stronger than Cherry.  To me they are annoyingly stiff and loud, but I'm sure some people like them just that way.

The weakest is from the GGG Micro-Leaf switch.  They have a soft spring and barely detectable click.

[MazzMn]

What happened to the leaf switch replacement for micro switches. Did people not like them?
Link

[RoninEditor]

Oh, sorry, I meant like, ya know, on Donkey Kong, in the original, you could almost fire a quarter off it the pushbutton because of the pop it had, LOL.  Like, the bounceback, great for shooter games like Galaga, nice tight springs. 

Don't get me wrong, these Happ buttons will be fine (when I finish prepping this CP) but I was hoping for something closer to the stuff I remember as a kid.  It looks great though, good shape and all of that.

[RoninEditor]

What happened to the leaf switch replacement for micro switches. Did people not like them?

Mazzmn... I should clarify, I've been doing a ton of research in my years lurking on here but I finally am putting it into action and invested into the hobby now, cut my MDF, ordered a ton of parts, etc... but I'm not clear on what 'makes' a button springy, I've just been told that the original leaf buttons are the ones with the good feel to them, not sure what makes them so good, the spring or the leaf.  I'd honestly prefer to keep it microswitch but there are no leaf to microswitch converters, are there...?

[Zobeid]

What happened to the leaf switch replacement for micro switches. Did people not like them?

I have asked about those, I wanted to try them.  All I can find out is that they aren't available right now.  There is supposed to be another batch of them eventually, and I was told to watch for the announcement here on BYOAC.  And that's all I know.

I had no problem getting Micro-Leaf switches from GGG, so that's what I'm using.

[Xiaou2]

 The things you describe are caused by the design of  Happs buttons.

 The button  in made from flexible plastic.   Its fairly loose in tolerances,
so it will rattle a little from side to side.   Its button top is hollow underneath,
and the shape of that hollow tube causes that 'hollow sound' and 'cheap feel'.

 The Wico leaf buttons are designed completely different.   They use a much
smaller diameter 'Solid'  cylinder...  and the base tolerance is much tighter so they
dont slosh around as much.     The plastic they use is much stiffer too.

 As for Microswitches themselves... there are various 'feels'  to them.   Some are very
easy to depress,  but dont have a very strong Pop when they activate.   Kinda mushy.
Sometimes this is simply the result of worn or old micros... which eventually fail.
Of course, there are some micros which are so very crisp and are pronounced - but really,
they are too stiff for log play durations and rapid fire games.

 Leafs are great for certain types of games.  Quicker responses, less fatigue due to
less pressure needed.  And more.    But,  they can get out of adjustment sometimes, and
need to be cleaned occasionally.   They are not the best for fighter games in joysticks...
as sometimes leaf joys can be a little 'flippy' with diagonals when using stop-n-go movements.

 

[Zobeid]

I'm not clear on what 'makes' a button springy, I've just been told that the original leaf buttons are the ones with the good feel to them

There are two things that make a button springy.  There's a spring inside the pushbutton housing itself, and there is also a spring in the microswitch.  (Or in the case of a leaf switch, the leaf acts as a spring.)  It's the combination of the the button spring and the switch spring.

You can open up a pushbutton and adjust the spring.  You can make it stiffer by stretching it a little, or you can put in some kind of spacer to give it more tension.

With a microswitch you also have a snappy or clicky action, which I think is what you mean by "pop".  You apply pressure up to a certain point and then the switch snaps down with a loud click.  Some microswitches have a stronger snap than others.  Leaf switches do not have this snap effect.

Some people like a stiff spring, some like a soft spring.  Some like a hard snap and loud click, so they'll know it registered.  Some people want a smooth action with no click.

It sounds to me like you are looking for a stiff spring and a strong snap.  I suggest giving Zippy microswitches a try, if you can find them.  They seem stronger than Cherry switches.

[RoninEditor]

Ah, thanks for explaining... totally makes sense now.  Yeah, that was EXACTLY what I was talking about, that hollow feel.  I'm probably making a mountain out of a mole hill but I just had to check.  I might buy some buttons from other companies just to compare but it seems like Happ's last the longest, without any adjusting, like, a little give and take.

[RoninEditor]

I'm not clear on what 'makes' a button springy, I've just been told that the original leaf buttons are the ones with the good feel to them

There are two things that make a button springy.  There's a spring inside the pushbutton housing itself, and there is also a spring in the microswitch.  (Or in the case of a leaf switch, the leaf acts as a spring.)  It's the combination of the the button spring and the switch spring.

You can open up a pushbutton and adjust the spring.  You can make it stiffer by stretching it a little, or you can put in some kind of spacer to give it more tension.

With a microswitch you also have a snappy or clicky action, which I think is what you mean by "pop".  You apply pressure up to a certain point and then the switch snaps down with a loud click.  Some microswitches have a stronger snap than others.  Leaf switches do not have this snap effect.

Some people like a stiff spring, some like a soft spring.  Some like a hard snap and loud click, so they'll know it registered.  Some people want a smooth action with no click.

It sounds to me like you are looking for a stiff spring and a strong snap.  I suggest giving Zippy microswitches a try, if you can find them.  They seem stronger than Cherry switches.

Zobeid... really, I can open them?  I never tried, afraid I'd break them (I have extras through).  Do you open them from the top or bottom.  Yeah, I'd love to get some spacers in there, I think that's the only thing I'd need.

[Ginsu Victim]

I was referring to the sound when I said POP. Microswitches are more clicky. Leafs have a different sound.

[Zobeid]

Zobeid... really, I can open them?  I never tried, afraid I'd break them (I have extras through).  Do you open them from the top or bottom.  Yeah, I'd love to get some spacers in there, I think that's the only thing I'd need.

There is a trick to it.  First take off the switch.  Then put both of your thumbs on the two tabs that stick out the bottom of the button housing.  Give them a firm push in-and-down, they should snap into the housing, then it just comes apart.

[Kajoq]

Sanwa buttons all the way.  Happ can't even compare, especially the concave HAPPs.

[Bleagh]

Have you tried the happ buttons with vertical switches?  They are a bit "beefier" and less "hollow." 

http://www.happcontrols.com/pushbuttons/539200xx.htm

[RoninEditor]

Haven't tried the vertical switches, I'll have enough space to try them if tightening the springs don't do the trick... great tip though.  I think I'll snap a couple from Divemaster with my next order to check them out.

[RandyT]

The button  in made from flexible plastic.   Its fairly loose in tolerances, so it will rattle a little from side to side.   Its button top is hollow underneath, and the shape of that hollow tube causes that 'hollow sound' and 'cheap feel'.

The HAPP button is made from nylon, which is a very high quality material.  Some other buttons out there are made from cheaper materials and are far more flexible.  As for tolerances and rattle, I compared them with the tolerances on the leaf buttons installed on a couple of old cabs sitting next to me in my office, and the "slop" is virtually identical.  It's not dictated by the retaining prongs, rather the difference in diameter between the plunger and the housing.

The "pop" that is being talked about is specifically a spring issue.  Different springs inside of different sized cavities = different plunger return characteristics, as well as different vibration levels.

Here's something you really need to try before going nuts looking for replacements;  remove the spring from your current horizontal button and grab it from as close to the two ends as possible.  Then stretch it until the length of the spring is roughly 2 1/4".  Replace it into the button and you should see a huge difference in the way the plunger returns and how "solid" the button feels under your finger.  I just did this with a HAPP button and it has as much "pop" as the leaf buttons.

The sound will always be a little different because the internal cavity is larger.  More resonance.  However, the extra spring resistance cuts down on vibration, so this is less prominent.

And FWIW, stay away from those vertical microswitch buttons.  IMHO, they were just a bad idea whose time has passed.  I started with these on my machine years ago, and couldn't believe how much nicer the horizontal ones were when I replaced them.

RandyT

[RoninEditor]

Thanks Randy, I'm gonna definitely try the spring stretch!  In the meantime, I found a quick fix that I really like, suggested from the posts above... instead of washers right now, I folded card stock paper and basically made a 1/4"-5/16" thick triangle shape that rests between the top of the spring and the button.  It really pops now!!  And, no hollow sound, definitely feels more like the old school buttons.  But the spring stretching sounds like it would be a lot easier, vs. making 12 of these inserts.

[Xiaou2]

Guess my memory was a little fuzzy in some spots.   Anyways...

 To reduce the hollow sound,   one could probably glue a cylinder such as wood dowel to the bottom
of the base assembly.   Much be centered,  and must have decent clearance for the spring to move.
And of course, must not be so tall that depressing the button will collide with it.


 

[Bender]

one more thing to note is the height of the button travel
the newer buttons (like Happ's) have a short travel like an 1/8" and the older original games were more than 1/4" travel for both microswitch (Donkey Kong) and Leaf (say Tron)
for me the longer travel has a more satisfying feel, although there could be a slightly slower response time, but that is debatable (personally I've gotton my highest scores on the old style buttons)
again all comes down to personal preference

My suggestion is to go to and arcade and find a button on a machine that feels right and research what type of button it is, I'm pretty sure you can still get just about anything

[Bluedeath]

one thing i can say avoid vertical microswitches button like the plague.

[Xiaou2]

Bender... that not entirely true.

  You can adjust Leaf switches to activate in less travel than a Microswitch.

 A common mistake when playing with leafs, was to push the full travel of the button
when you didnt need to do that.   

 For rapidfire, you simply bounce the switch up/down quickly - but only a mm or less of travel
in each direction.

 Micros extra mechanical resistence, causes poor 'bounce-back' (cant fire repeated as fast as
leafs)  as well as giving more fatigue to the player because of the added resistence.

[Bender]

Bender... that not entirely true.

  You can adjust Leaf switches to activate in less travel than a Microswitch.

 A common mistake when playing with leafs, was to push the full travel of the button
when you didn't need to do that.  

 For rapidfire, you simply bounce the switch up/down quickly - but only a mm or less of travel
in each direction.

 Micros extra mechanical resistance, causes poor 'bounce-back' (cant fire repeated as fast as
leafs)  as well as giving more fatigue to the player because of the added resistence.

What is not entirely True?

No mater how fine you tune the leafs the spring still has a 1/4" travel (old school games)
now given if your really good you don't have to let the button come all the way back up, but again I think that it is the same for both and  a matter of opinion
I mean really the the actuation on a micro switch is maybe, giving you the benefit of the doubt 1mm as well and as what you are saying a leaf extremely well adjusted is 1mm,(which is extremely hard to maintain, by the way)  which translates into how small a fractions of a second when you playing, I just don't know?

Oh yeah, I think I tried to avoid this argument by saying it was debatable

So as I was saying there are different opinions

don't take what any one says completely, including me, these are only opinions. the only way of finding out what is right for you is to just try some out and see what feels right!


for me micros feel right on Donkey Kong and Leafs feel right on Tron

it is really hard to judge what is "best" over all

I would have to agree with Xiaou2, that for rapid fire leafs are probably the best

But for "snap" and "PoP" I still like the Nintendo type micro switch( which are very different than the happ ones)

GOD DAMM it I swore I wouldn't be sucked into this debate

[Xiaou2]

While leaf travel may be near 1/4" ...  you can make it actuate in the 1st mm of travel (or less).   
You dont have to push down 3/4ths travel like in micros.

 *** Ok I decided to actually Measure:

  A Happs horizontal button had 1/2 mm play (space) between the button actuator and the mircoswitch actuator.
And, pressing the button down, it actuated the switch at 2mm.   


 That is:

      1/2 mm  play (space)
1 & 1/2 mm  microswitch activation

(and I think there was another 1/2 to 1 full mm of  travel after activation.  I forgot)
 

 I didnt have an open leaf in access...  but,  I felt underneath the Asteroid Deluxe to feel the buttons
top leaf... at the same time feeling the top of the button with the other hand.

 As soon as I pressed the button a hair - the leaf was matching the action.  There was no 'play' at all
as the button was sitting directly on the leaf spring.

 The leaf's themselves can be bent to be touching at all times.  This means that you can easily adjust it
to 1mm distance to total activation quite easily.

 Of course, over time, you will need to re-adjust them.   That is one of the problems of leafs.


 As for Pop - if that is what one desires.. then that is clearly a Microswitch thing.   I have some industrial
Micros that are very heavy to activate - but when they do... man do they Pop.   Twice as loud, and
the vibration is twice as strong from the activation - compared to typical arcade micros.

 I think I recall the Epyx handheld joystick for the old C-64 I used to have,  had those same
micros too.

 I just checked and found one.   I think I got it from a local
surplus place.   Same size as happs.    Name:  " OMRON "    Made in Japan.

Reads:

 1975RA5
 10A     250VAC
 V-10DL-3C8
 10A  250V~
 / 716 \   T80
 
 This one has a metal leaf on top - of course, it could be removed.   Compared to the other micro-leafs,
it really packs a punch when activated.   It also appears to need more a little more travel to activate.

[Bender]

While leaf travel may be near 1/4" ...  you can make it actuate in the 1st mm of travel (or less).  
You dont have to push down 3/4ths travel like in micros.

 *** Ok I decided to actually Measure:

  A Happs horizontal button had 1/2 mm play (space) between the button actuator and the mircoswitch actuator.
And, pressing the button down, it actuated the switch at 2mm.  


 That is:

      1/2 mm  play (space)
1 & 1/2 mm  microswitch activation

(and I think there was another 1/2 to 1 full mm of  travel after activation.  I forgot)
 

 I didnt have an open leaf in access...  but,  I felt underneath the Asteroid Deluxe to feel the buttons
top leaf... at the same time feeling the top of the button with the other hand.

 As soon as I pressed the button a hair - the leaf was matching the action.  There was no 'play' at all
as the button was sitting directly on the leaf spring.

 The leaf's themselves can be bent to be touching at all times.  This means that you can easily adjust it
to 1mm distance to total activation quite easily.

 Of course, over time, you will need to re-adjust them.   That is one of the problems of leafs.

Hey Xiaou2,

Great point!

the micro activates after the majority of travel
and the leafs travel the majority after they activate
that is a really good way to describe one of the differences
I hadn't thought about it that way, but very true!

oh yeah, HEALTHY debate IS good!

Thanks,

Bender