AGP video card question

[ahofle]

I posted this question earlier in the monitor forum, but I think it's more of a general PC hardware question than a video problem and there are more PC experts in the open forum, so I thought I'd try here.  I am trying to move my ArcadeVGA2 to another computer.  The 'newer' computer is a P4 3.0ghz with an Asus P4P800-E Deluxe.  The AVGA2 is the AGP model (Radeon 9250).  I first tried to install windows with the AVGA in, but setup would keep hanging.  I then took out the AVGA and put in a temporary video card and was able to install XP.  Then I shut down and put the AVGA back in and I see all the POST and boot screens including the XP startup logo and then it hangs on the logo screen.  I can boot up in safe mode with the AVGA, but I can't install any drivers that way.  The AVGA works fine when I put it back in the old computer.  Anyone have any ideas about this?  I've never heard of certain AGP cards not working on what should be a compatible AGP slot.  According to ATI:
http://ati.amd.com/products/radeon9200/radeon9200/specs.html
and ASUS:
http://usa.asus.com/products.aspx?l1=3&l2=12&l3=31&l4=0&model=178&modelmenu=2

...it should work fine.  Any ideas what's happening here?  I checked the bios and I can only adjust the AGP voltage from 1.5V to 1.8V (it's currently on 1.5V).  I also have AGP over PCI priority set.  I am really at a loss here -- any help would really be appreciated.

[2600]

You fail to mention what the temporary video card was?
If it was an ati, you have to uninstall the drivers first.  I would run the ATI Drive uninstall utility anyways just to be on the safe side.

Also, have you tried installing the AVGA drivers in SAFE Mode as specified on the Ultimarc website.  It appears you haven't, but I'm either reading your post wrong or you didn't specify why you can't.


It's been a while, but I think I just got in the habit of installing the drivers in SAFE Mode.  That and I use Nlite to remove the ATI drivers from the XP CD.

[knave]

After booting with the temp card, remove any drivers that may have instaled. It should be set to the generic VGA driver.  Then try booting with the avga installed. 

Other than that check everything, Power supply, jumper settings, bios, ram.

I would even double check to see if there's a conflict, IRQ or otherwise with the new card.

good luck

[ahofle]

The temporary card was an Nvidia 6800GT.  I have not installed any video drivers yet, windows is still  using the generic VGA driver.  When rebooting with the AVGA, it hangs.  I did try to install the drivers in safe mode, but windows gave me some error message that I was using the generic driver and thus could not install the ultimarc ATI driver.  I'll try it again tonight and report the exact error msg. 
I did not even think about IRQ problems (haven't had that issue in years LOL) -- I'll explore that more as well.

[2600]

Doubt it's an IRQ problem.

BTW, you are using an original XP CD, correct? Not tinyXP or anything?

[zelony]

You should make sure you have the most current BIOS for your motherboard.  Also, keep in mind that the AVGA is an old card based on old technology.  It is not uncommon to find older cards that simply will not work with a newer motherboard.

Good luck.

Jeff

[ahofle]

It's a full XP Pro installation, not TinyXP.  And I forgot to mention, upgrading my bios was the first thing I tried.  I was starting to think what zelony said (maybe this card just isn't compatible for whatever reason) but I saw a few posts in my searching of people using an ATI 9250 with this mobo with no problems. 

[SavannahLion]

Then I shut down and put the AVGA back in and I see all the POST and boot screens including the XP startup logo and then it hangs on the logo screen.

Have you tried getting rid of the splash screen so you can at least see which driver(s) are failing to load? It might not even be the AVGA that's failing, but something conflicting with the AVGA.

[ahofle]

Cool, never knew about that.  I'll try it and report back.

[ahofle]

Here's the msg I'm getting trying to run the ultimarc ATI setup program:

[Ummon]

That's weird to me. I haven't seen anything like that on XP. Win98 yes.

[SavannahLion]

Have you tried what I suggested yet? I think we can get quite a bit of information from the boot process.

[2600]

Here's the msg I'm getting trying to run the ultimarc ATI setup program:

Just to make sure.  Are you running the setup program or following the instructions on the Ultimarc Website.  I'll paste the instructions here so you can read them and verify this is what you are doing.

Windows XP may try to invoke the built-in Microsoft ATI driver and this will not work with the ArcadeVGA card, and causes a blue-screen error. If you see this, re-start and hold down "F8" and choose to start in Safe Mode, then install the ATI driver from the ArcadeVGA CD. To do this, you will need to enter device manager, right click on the expanded video card listing under 'Display Adapters' (or, the undesignated option, if the device has not been recognized at all, and has a yellow X next to it), click on properties, go to driver tab, and click on 'update driver'. This is the only way to install the driver in safe mode, as attempting to install via ATI's setup utility will produce error messages and result in a failure to install the driver. You will need to point the driver install to the correct location on the CD as mentioned in "Forcing a driver install", further down this page.

[zelony]

Well, Windows has told you the problem... You are not using a standard VGA card.  The problem is that the ArcadeVGA card is a modified VGA card and will not work for setup.  That being said, install XP using a generic VGA card then install the ArcadeVGA in Safe Mode like the post above said. 

Good luck.

[ahofle]

Have you tried what I suggested yet? I think we can get quite a bit of information from the boot process.

Yes, sorry I didn't bother posting all the details as I was so pissed for wasting 4 hours last night LOL.  The last driver it loads is agp440.sys, then hangs.  I did some googling and found a ton of similar issues with that service, including a microsoft bulletin which suggested booting in recovery console and disabling it.  That enabled me to get into Windows, but the card was not listed in the device manager and windows was using a 'VGAService', so I couldn't install the AVGA drivers.  There was also an exclamation next to some 'AGP bridge' in the device manager because I disabled the AGP440 presumably.  When I reenable it, it hangs on startup again.  So I have isolated the problem, but there seems to be absolutely nothing I can do to solve it.  Other things I wasted time on last night:
- boot into recovery console, and chkdsk
- tried beta BIOS for my mobo
- loaded 'bios default' safe settings
- tried XP repair

As I've mentioned before, yes I installed windows with a different card (NVidia 6800GT) with no absolutely no problems.  I then shut down, put in the AVGA to install its drivers and I don't even get past the XP loading logo.

Just to make sure.  Are you running the setup program or following the instructions on the Ultimarc Website.  I'll paste the instructions here so you can read them and verify this is what you are doing.

I've tried both, but I can't even get that far because the card doesn't appear in the device manager (in safe mode or otherwise).  That's also why I can't install the drivers from the setup program.  I have yet to see anything ATI related in windows when the AVGA is plugged in.  It's like it doesn't even know it's there and XP falls back to this 'VGA service'.

[2600]

I've tried both, but I can't even get that far because the card doesn't appear in the device manager (in safe mode or otherwise).  That's also why I can't install the drivers from the setup program.  I have yet to see anything ATI related in windows when the AVGA is plugged in.  It's like it doesn't even know it's there and XP falls back to this 'VGA service'.

Can you take a screenshot or photo with Device Manager open?  Expand Other Devices and the Display Adapters.

[ahofle]

Can you take a screenshot or photo with Device Manager open?  Expand Other Devices and the Display Adapters.

Not easily as I've begun exploring using Soft15khz with an ATI 9600XT I had lying around.  I can tell you that there was no 'display adapters' tree item, nor were there any problem devices with an exclamation under 'other'.  The only problem device was that AGP bridge I mentioned when I disabled the agp440 service.

[AndyWarne]

Its quite common for the ArcadeVGA card to require the procedure on our web page www.ultimarc.com/avgainst.html under the heading "Forcing a Windows Driver Install" to be used.
This needs to be tried, but I am not sure that there might be another problem with that agp440.sys file. Thats not an ATI driver, it is something to do with the AGP slot on the motherboard.
This is best resolved via email.
Andy

[ahofle]

Thanks Andy.

[knave]

I doubt that the problem lies with agp440.sys, If you watch another pc boot it stops at that file like the screen is just not scrolling, and then boots right up.  

We had a pc hanging like this at work a while ago and we all thought it was this file.  Turns out it was some bad ram and nothing to do with the file at all.  I googled it for three days before I  started to put two and two together.  

Follow andy's instructions and get back to us. If that fails, there is some conflict we havn't found yet.

[SavannahLion]

We had a pc hanging like this at work a while ago and we all thought it was this file.  Turns out it was some bad ram and nothing to do with the file at all.  I googled it for three days before I  started to put two and two together.

Try Memtest86. I still use an older version of Memtest86 that last fit on a floppy (shows the last time I actually needed to use Memtest86  ), it appears that Memtest86 has diverged into Memtest86 and Memtest86+ since I last used it.

It can't truly compare to a dedicated RAM checker, but it is the next best thing and it is free. In only one instance, I did have it report RAM failure on known good RAM (an OCed BH6), this seems to indicate a problem elsewhere in the system (bad CPU or bad MB) that manifests itself as bad RAM. Either way, you have an answer.

In case I misunderstood the post, unless Memtest86 has been updated, it does not check video RAM.

[ahofle]

I doubt that the problem lies with agp440.sys, If you watch another pc boot it stops at that file like the screen is just not scrolling, and then boots right up.

In this case I think the problem does lie with agp440.sys because the only way I can get into Windows with the AVGA is by disabling the agp440 service.  Once I re-enable it, I can't boot again.

Follow andy's instructions and get back to us. If that fails, there is some conflict we havn't found yet.

I can't follow his instructions because there is no display adapter (AVGA or otherwise) listed in the device manager! 

I'll post up if Andy figures something out.  I'm thinking there is just some bizarre incompatibility with my motherboard and this card that cannot be solved.

[ahofle]

That enabled me to get into Windows, but the card was not listed in the device manager and windows was using a 'VGAService', so I couldn't install the AVGA drivers. 

I actually misspoke: it was called 'VGASave', not 'VGAService'. 

[ark_ader]

What Bios is it?

What motherboard is it?

Do you have a plan vanilla PCI video card?

What do you get when you go into Safe mode?  Will the standard windows vga driver work?

Have you tried installing the Radeon drivers with this card?

Have you considered rebuilding XP?

[ahofle]

Just to update, I had installed an ATI 9600XT in there last night with the latest drivers.  Tonight, I uninstalled those drivers, removed the 9600, plugged the AVGA back in and booted into safe mode.  This time the 'found new hardware' dialog showed up.    
I was able to install the drivers with no problems.  I got nothin. 

[SavannahLion]

That makes sense. It's possible some portion of the install required the vanilla ATI drivers. Of course, the only person that can really make that determination is Andy or whomever Andy hired to create the drivers.

Mayhaps this should be noted in the Wiki or on Andy's website for future reference in case someone else runs into it?

[Avrus]

Wow, too many responses.

When going from an ATI to an Nvidia or Nvidia to an ATI you need to nuke all the software that gets installed along with it.

It doesn't sound like you've done that.

There is an epic ton of crap that gets installed into Windows by either manufacturer.

Here's a driver cleaner from Guru 3D:
http://downloads.guru3d.com/download.php?det=745
Here's another:
http://www.download3k.com/Install-Driver-Cleaner-Professional.html
And another from Guru 3D - driver sweeper:
http://downloads.guru3d.com/download.php?det=1655

[SavannahLion]

When going from an ATI to an Nvidia or Nvidia to an ATI you need to nuke all the software that gets installed along with it.

It doesn't sound like you've done that.

The OP did state:

I first tried to install windows with the AVGA in, but setup would keep hanging.