a possibly insane idea

[Spacejack]

Okay, I've had this notion floating around my head for a couple of days.  Please excuse me if it's been covered before.  What if you duplicated an old piece of game hardware on a breadboard and plugged in real game ROMS?

It seems like this could be done... what would be the legal status of such a machine?  Could you even get the ROMS separately from the rest of the hardware, perhaps off of a board that died, or a replacement kit?  (I know you could burn eproms off of existing ones, but I was kind of wondering if you could legally run the thing as an amusement if you were using legit ROMs).

It certainly seems a scratch-built classic game would be a cool thing, even if it was limited to the typical mamecab home usage.  Anyway, just a weird thought.

[Fozzy The Bear]

Okay, I've had this notion floating around my head for a couple of days.  Please excuse me if it's been covered before.  What if you duplicated an old piece of game hardware on a breadboard and plugged in real game ROMS?

Not unless you have a complete circuit diagram and all of the now out of production chips and custom chips that would be on it.

I was kind of wondering if you could legally run the thing as an amusement if you were using legit ROMs).

No!  because you're still running the software on illegitimate hardware.... It'd be no different to those illegal multi game boards.  Think about it this way: It'd be like plugging a legitimate Nintendo cartrige into an illegitimate console.

It certainly seems a scratch-built classic game would be a cool thing, even if it was limited to the typical mamecab home usage.  Anyway, just a weird thought.

That's exactly what you would be limited to.... but if you want to take it on as a personal project then go for it. I don't think it would be easy to achieve but it's not totally impossible to do either.... Personally I think you'd be better off buying a working board off e-bay. It'd be a damned sight quicker.

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)

[brandon]

build a PONG

[Spacejack]

Fozzy:

Are the boardsets ALL that weird?  I thought if I went old enough I could find something with fairly common components.  The whole idea sorta came to me when I was looking at an Invaders board on ebay and didn't see many chips on it.  I'm probably misunderstanding at least three things.

I don't know if it's worth doing at all... it just sorta popped into my head that since these things are already in boxes the size of refrigerators, might as well go ahead and build a gigantic board to go in there (or down the back)...

Well, like I said, possibly insane.  Of course it would be easier to just get a board...  and then I could use it commercially too...  it was just a crazy thought.

[grbgemen]

it would definitely be very cool if it worked. 

[RayB]

No!  because you're still running the software on illegitimate hardware.... It'd be no different to those illegal multi game boards.  Think about it this way: It'd be like plugging a legitimate Nintendo cartrige into an illegitimate console.

You're partly wrong here. It all depends on the status of the patents involved. Patents are typically 20 years. So right now, you could duplicate the hardware of pretty much anything pre-1988. The catch is not using any trademarks that might still be valid, and having legal license to any and all software contained on the chips. (ROMs like the OP already mentioned, but also the BIOS, if any).

[Fozzy The Bear]

No!  because you're still running the software on illegitimate hardware.... It'd be no different to those illegal multi game boards.  Think about it this way: It'd be like plugging a legitimate Nintendo cartrige into an illegitimate console.

You're partly wrong here. It all depends on the status of the patents involved. Patents are typically 20 years. So right now, you could duplicate the hardware of pretty much anything pre-1988. The catch is not using any trademarks that might still be valid, and having legal license to any and all software contained on the chips. (ROMs like the OP already mentioned, but also the BIOS, if any).

That's a very grey area Ray. The trouble would come with the software that forms the  design of the custom chips. 90% of arcade boards have at least 1 or more custom chips on them. You could I suppose double blind reverse engineer them, but that's beyond the bounds of possibility unless you spend thousands doing it.

The patents issue is not the same worldwide. I believe that in the UK we actually have stronger and longer lasting engineering design patents. This is of course not to mention the design copyright issue which goes well beyond the question of patents. The original designer could sue, even if the patent had expired if the intention is to copy the original product. It would require a test case through the courts to define that and I don't think the original poster wants to be that test case.

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)

[Spacejack]

I guess one could maybe make the case that by building new boards for a set of ROMs that came out of a real (broken) machine, that you were simply performing repairs?  Well anyway, it's not like I was actually going to do it all the way to taking quarters, it was just an extension of the thought.

[Fozzy The Bear]

I guess one could maybe make the case that by building new boards for a set of ROMs that came out of a real (broken) machine, that you were simply performing repairs?

You could try and make that case.... I think you'd be in for a pasting from any opposition barrister if you did. It certainly wouldn't be classed as a repair because, you're only using one component and building the majority (90% or more) of the machine.

There's still nothing stopping you from doing it for yourself though. Just that you can't make commercial use of it if you do.

You mentioned Space Invaders. That's an interesting machine, because it doesn't have a CPU. All of the logic on it is built from the ground up using discrete chips.

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)

[DJ_Izumi]

Simply put, I think it would just be a lot cheaper and easier to take a 1-2ghz PC and use a dedicated emulator in the box.  Especially since, to replicate an arcade board you would need to have that board on hand to backward engineer or very detailed design papers that would be nearly impossible to obtain.

Additionally, many arcade boards would simply too complicated to construct on a breadboard and you'd need to clone the entire PCB as a PCB...  You don't want to hear what that'll cost you, but simply put, it'd be cheaper to BUY the real cab or at least it's boards.

[Fozzy The Bear]

Simply put, I think it would just be a lot cheaper and easier to take a 1-2ghz PC and use a dedicated emulator in the box.  Especially since, to replicate an arcade board you would need to have that board on hand to backward engineer or very detailed design papers that would be nearly impossible to obtain.

It would if it's just for himself..... but that still doesn't get round his legal question for commercial use of the machine.

As you say.... buying a cab is his best option if he wants to use it commercially. If it's just for himself then Mame!

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)

[Ummon]

As you say.... buying a cab is his best option if he wants to use it commercially.

But he would still need local licenses, right?

[Fozzy The Bear]

As you say.... buying a cab is his best option if he wants to use it commercially.

But he would still need local licenses, right?

Not necessarily.....  In the UK there is no licence required at all for video games. Licencing is only required on fruit machines and gambling machines.

So it really depends what his local laws are.

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)

[RayB]

That's a very grey area Ray. The trouble would come with the software that forms the  design of the custom chips. 90% of arcade boards have at least 1 or more custom chips on them. You could I suppose double blind reverse engineer them, but that's beyond the bounds of possibility unless you spend thousands doing it.

The patents issue is not the same worldwide. I believe that in the UK we actually have stronger and longer lasting engineering design patents. This is of course not to mention the design copyright issue which goes well beyond the question of patents. The original designer could sue, even if the patent had expired if the intention is to copy the original product. It would require a test case through the courts to define that and I don't think the original poster wants to be that test case.

You're just repeating what I said. If there's any software on a chip (like a BIOS or similar) then there's still a copyright hurdle. Also, Space Invaders uses an 8080 cpu. Not sure why you'd assume it's all discrete.

As for patent durations, everyone knows only the US matters. ;-) OK just kidding! What matters is the jurisdiction of the law where the patent is registered, but my claim of 20 years is pretty spot on. Just read about Famicom/NES clones here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nintendo_Entertainment_System_hardware_clone#Post-patent_Famiclones

[Fozzy The Bear]

You're just repeating what I said. If there's any software on a chip (like a BIOS or similar) then there's still a copyright hurdle.

Ermmm no I wasn't repeating what you said... the point I was making was that the only way to overcome that is to double blind reverse engineer them at a staggering cost.

As for Space Invaders.... sorry my error.....

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)

[Bluedeath]

Copyright and legal issues aside. Build a PCB arcade bootleg from scratch would be an intersting challenge and could be really educational.