Brand New Trackball 'Spin Time'?

[Keroppi]

On a new HAPP or Imperial 3" trackball, with a good 'Golden tee whack', how long does the ball spin? 2sec? 3? 5?

I have a whole BUNCH of trackballs that have VERY light roller wear. They all roll smoothly, but I have never used a brand new one, so I'm wondering how close to new these 'feel'...my trackballs roll 1-1.5 seconds with a decent whack (not mounted, so I can't golden tee it)

...how does it compare? Thanks!

[rrcade]

A new trackball should spin for 5 days before slowing down

[Keroppi]

Real funny. Do you actually have some insight, or are you justing wasting space?

[CheffoJeffo]

3 Days ?

[Havok]

1 day until they break in...

[QuarterJunkie]

Mine spins for .325 seconds.


However, I do eat a lot of peanut butter and jelly sandwiches while I play..


Seriously, I'm sure the times are way too variable to accurately document.

[Keroppi]

Mine spins for .325 seconds.


However, I do eat a lot of peanut butter and jelly sandwiches while I play..


Seriously, I'm sure the times are way too variable to accurately document.

I'm sure they're going to be rather variable.  That's why the question was directed at folks with a new trackball. I'm sure they're all different, but I was hoping I would get responses from people as to what their time is, and not just a  telling me the number of days...

...does yours really only spin for a fraction of a second, or are you screwing with me too?

[somunny]

This is a pretty laid back forum and sometimes you're going to get someone who wants to make a joke or poke fun in a light-hearted way.  The way you'll be treated around here depends somewhat on how you handle those instances. 

So far, you seem to be having a hard time.   This is a fun hobby and people around here like to have a little fun with each other (most of the time  ).

Just my two cents. 

[rrcade]

Real funny. Do you actually have some insight, or are you justing wasting space?

I already answered you on KLOV New bearings=New grease (hard grease)=resistance=slow spin.

Spin bearings in a drill or by hand for a Long time, the grease will heat up and spread evenly as it thins and your ball will all of a sudden spin like crazy.

[CheffoJeffo]

OK, I know I am just a  , but the number is way too variable and depends on things like CP angle, direction of spin, etc.

I have a ton of used trackballs and a few new ones ... after cleaning and lubing the used trackballs, I have never noticed any significant difference in spin time. I just went downstairs and repeated the experiment on a number of different machines with a mix of new (OK, used, but they were new when I put them in not long ago) and used trackballs -- same results (between 2 and 7 seconds).

People have reported needing to wear the ball in for a bit before they get smooth spins, but I have not had that problem. When I recondition trackballs, I used 3-in-1 oil. Others sometimes use grease.

And before I forget -- LIGHTEN UP, FRANCIS !



 

[Xiaou2]

yes, there are lots of 'tools'  here...  sadly...


  Take the bearings out,  douse them in  Radio Shacks  'Electronics Cleaner'.   Then spin them
inbetween your fingers "face up"  for around 45 seconds.    Then flip it over, and repeat.   Repeat the
process once more.   (total of 2 times per side for each bearing)

  The stuff will eat the bearing grease with ease.   Trackballs need little lubrication, as they
are not used continuously for long periods of time, and do not support massive weight.

 However, if you distrust that, you can then add a small amount of 3 in 1 oil... which is
much thinner than what it comes with,  and will result in less drag (yet more drag than
without any lubricant).
 

[Keroppi]

Thank you all for the tips, and the responses. I DO need to lighten up, no doubt. But I also noticed that after I got irritated is when I actually got a legitimate answer to my question. I just wish sometimes I could ask a question and get a straight answer. 

Up to 7 seconds?...guess I need to go buy some 3in1...dare I ask, anyone know a good place to buy some?

Thanks!!

[rrcade]

Either McDonalds or a Hardware Store......sorry I had to.

[Keroppi]

 

[RandyT]

Thank you all for the tips, and the responses. I DO need to lighten up, no doubt. But I also noticed that after I got irritated is when I actually got a legitimate answer to my question. I just wish sometimes I could ask a question and get a straight answer. 

Up to 7 seconds?...guess I need to go buy some 3in1...dare I ask, anyone know a good place to buy some?

I may be wrong, but the initial response may be partially due to the fact that the answer to your question has little to do with a properly functioning trackball.  Kind of like "spin times" on spinners.  There are other factors that are just far more important.

I'm curious, though.  What games are you playing where a "slippery" 7-second spin time on a trackball is actually desirable?  Remember that momentum and lack of resistance is what is allowing for that behavior, and those two things together can actually work against you in games where any type of fine control is required.  I also assume (perhaps incorrectly) that once the head of the club contacts the ball in a golf game, the continued spin of the trackball is ignored.  So where's the advantage beyond the point of "smooth" operation?

RandyT

[Xiaou2]

 Generally, if a trackball has a 1sec or less spin time... there becomes
too much friction for certain games to control well.   

 Think about a game like  supersprint... where you whip the wheel around with
a hard fast turn... and let it spin like 20 times before you grab on again.   If
the wheel had too much friction... it might only turn 5 times... and not be
enough to take the tracks curve at such a great speed.

 A game like  'crystal castles'... requires good spin times.

Yet, mostly, its not so much about the spin time... but that  good spin-time
means overall that  the reduced friction will enable better tracking
and control at any speed.


 I have to wonder why we have not seen a Laser trackball yet.   Opticals (mice) were bad,
but laser tracking is incredibly high resolution and has superior tracking and
reliability to opticals.   

 Using a Laser, one could probably make a  trackball that had even less friction
than typical arcade optical trackballs.   And with software or hardware, one could
switch the resolution on the fly -  to be able to use the trackball for both arcade and
windows applications.   As typically... arcade trackballs are a bit too low in resolution
for PC control and PC games.

 

[RandyT]

Generally, if a trackball has a 1sec or less spin time... there becomes too much friction for certain games to control well.   

I actually think 1 second is sufficient for most.  Less may be a little limiting for some titles.

Think about a game like  supersprint... where you whip the wheel around with a hard fast turn... and let it spin like 20 times before you grab on again.   If the wheel had too much friction... it might only turn 5 times... and not be enough to take the tracks curve at such a great speed.

This is kind of an apples to oranges example, and not a very accurate one.  The momentum of a large wheel would, by virtue of it's weight, provide a lot of spin.  However, that much spin would only be required if it were attached to a very low resolution encoder.  According to the info on this page, a single revolution of the wheel on the original game resulted in the car turning 170 degrees.  At no time in that game is it necessary for the car to spin around in place 10 times .

A game like  'crystal castles'... requires good spin times.

It requires "after spin" but I think "good spin times" needs to be quantified.  1 second?  2 seconds?  I played that game quite a bit and never remember seeing a section of the maze needing more than 2 seconds of prolonged spin, let alone 7!  Reckless hard spinning usually leads to a quick demise in that particular title.  It's more about short, quick and well controlled bursts.

Yet, mostly, its not so much about the spin time... but that  good spin-time means overall that  the reduced friction will enable better tracking and control at any speed.

I have to disagree somewhat with your conclusion.  The ultimate reduction of friction would be an air bearing.  This would mean virtually no friction, but would be so "touchy" that it would make control nearly impossible.  Some friction necessarily offsets the momentum of the heavy ball.  Again, I see reasonable after spin and smooth movement to be of greater importance, with solid tracking being at the top of the list.  A "zero friction" ball that tracks badly is far worse for control than a ball with higher friction and perfect tracking.

Using a Laser, one could probably make a  trackball that had even less friction than typical arcade optical trackballs.

A Laser trackball would have to have a pattern on the ball, just like a standard PC optical trackball.  As the image created by the mouse pad (small woven fibers, small surface projections, etc) is far different than those created by a highly polished ball, there may be some inherent limitations as to what more can be achieved by using the laser.

RandyT

[Xiaou2]

This is kind of an apples to oranges example, and not a very accurate one.  The momentum of a large wheel would, by virtue of it's weight, provide a lot of spin.  However, that much spin would only be required if it were attached to a very low resolution encoder.  According to the info on this page, a single revolution of the wheel on the original game resulted in the car turning 170 degrees.  At no time in that game is it necessary for the car to spin around in place 10 times

 Actually, I believe that information is not entirely accurate.   The faster you are traveling... the less the car will turn.
As far as I remember,  that wheel rotated more than one rotation at full speed when handling the heavy turns. 
However, I dont have my wheel hooked up to make sure of it.

I have to disagree somewhat with your conclusion.  The ultimate reduction of friction would be an air bearing.  This would mean virtually no friction, but would be so "touchy" that it would make control nearly impossible.  Some friction necessarily offsets the momentum of the heavy ball.  Again, I see reasonable after spin and smooth movement to be of greater importance, with solid tracking being at the top of the list.  A "zero friction" ball that tracks badly is far worse for control than a ball with higher friction and perfect tracking.


 I agree that there should be some friction.  However, a typical arcade trackball  un-even zones of friction.   This causes a distinct
control issue... as its giving more friction in certain directions.   Horizontal and Vertical will be equal - yet trying to go in a diagonal
will result in higher friction, and a possible moment of hesitation as the ball is either jumping, slipping, or trying to overcome
the additional friction...etc. 

A Laser trackball would have to have a pattern on the ball, just like a standard PC optical trackball.  As the image created by the mouse pad (small woven fibers, small surface projections, etc) is far different than those created by a highly polished ball, there may be some inherent limitations as to what more can be achieved by using the laser.

  Optical mice needed patterns.  However,  the new  Laser based sensors do not appear to need any patterns.   I have a logitec
Laser mouse,  and it tracks on just about anything, flawlessly, without any inturuptions, skips, delays, or loss of tracking
of any kind.   Its capable of something like 2000dpi.   I only use it at about 1000 dpi.  (and 500 reports per second)

 Btw - I love this mouse.  Tracks excellent on my chairs arm (squishy-fabric,  my pant leg, even on my own arm.   Pretty crazy.
It even tracks slightly lifted above a surface: from 2mm to 4mm.  (2 pretty stable, 4 jumpy)

[u_rebelscum]

A Laser trackball would have to have a pattern on the ball, just like a standard PC optical trackball.  As the image created by the mouse pad (small woven fibers, small surface projections, etc) is far different than those created by a highly polished ball, there may be some inherent limitations as to what more can be achieved by using the laser.

  Optical mice needed patterns.  However,  the new  Laser based sensors do not appear to need any patterns.   I have a logitec
Laser mouse,  and it tracks on just about anything, flawlessly, without any inturuptions, skips, delays, or loss of tracking
of any kind. 

Neither of the laser mice I have (work: MS laser 5000, home: logitech MX rev) don't like anything polished or waxed.  They don't even like my work desktop (faux wood laminate, with grain) if it's clean.  I've tried my TBs on my logitech mouse, and it doesn't like the TB much at slow speeds, and doesn't work when the ball is spinning fast.  (Haven't tried the MS laser mouse with TB. )

A patterned ball might not be needed, but maybe the ball needs some "un-shine".

[RandyT]

Actually, I believe that information is not entirely accurate.   The faster you are traveling... the less the car will turn.   As far as I remember,  that wheel rotated more than one rotation at full speed when handling the heavy turns.  However, I dont have my wheel hooked up to make sure of it.

My recollection was a quick "spin and grab" to take those 180 corners.  I don't believe speed was a factor.  Because one had to spin the wheel so quickly, it probably seemed like a lot more.  If you have a low resolution wheel, it is a lot more, but it isn't "authentic" control.

I agree that there should be some friction.  However, a typical arcade trackball  un-even zones of friction.

This is true, but by just how much is hugely dependent upon the condition of both the rollers and the trackball itself.  If the rollers and the trackball are new, there is only a tiny contact point between the sphere that is the trackball and the cylinders that are the rollers.  As the rollers become worn, they get a 1.5" radius curve worn into them.  The longer the curve, the more friction and uneven control.  Likewise, if the hard material of a standard trackball becomes scratched or dull, there is no longer a slick surface to slide against the rollers.  This increases the drag and will also speed up the decay of the rollers.

That's why it is important to keep all of the moving parts clean and in good condition.

Optical mice needed patterns.  However,  the new  Laser based sensors do not appear to need any patterns.   

From what I understand, it uses similar technology.  It's just that a laser has much higher output than an LED, which means that the image the mouse receives is much brighter and more well defined.  The receiver would likely be higher resolution as well.  That means that a pattern of some nature, whether it be interference patterns from the interaction of the laser with the material or something else, is still necessary.  Most things have a pattern at high magnification, but you probably just can't see them with your unaided eye.  Likewise, materials that have a lot of surface scatter will probably drive it nuts.

I would expect it to track ok on a beat-up trackball, but I'd be surprised if it worked well on a new one.

RandyT

[Keroppi]

I agree that there should be some friction.  However, a typical arcade trackball  un-even zones of friction.

This is true, but by just how much is hugely dependent upon the condition of both the rollers and the trackball itself.  If the rollers and the trackball are new, there is only a tiny contact point between the sphere that is the trackball and the cylinders that are the rollers.  As the rollers become worn, they get a 1.5" radius curve worn into them.  The longer the curve, the more friction and uneven control.  Likewise, if the hard material of a standard trackball becomes scratched or dull, there is no longer a slick surface to slide against the rollers.  This increases the drag and will also speed up the decay of the rollers.

That's why it is important to keep all of the moving parts clean and in good condition.

Randy:

This is exactly why/what I was asking. Almost all of the trackball games I have ever played were beaten and worn, from Centipede to Golden Tee.

I have never used a new trackball before, and I just received a number of trackballs that appear damn near new (ie VERY light wear, ab 1/4" wide on the rollers)...but I noticed that they didn't spin very long, even after a substantial whack. So I figured the 'spin time' of a new trackball would be a good reference point to compare my units to. I was ignorant of (and have since been enlightened) about other factors, particularly the viscosity of the bearing grease from sitting on a shelf unused.

So yeah, I was just (stupidly) trying to use that as a gauge of the condition of mine, which in hindsight wasn't the best way to figure it out. I have since learned they are in damn good condition, I just need to use them! 

I can't imagine a game that would really make use of a 7 second spin time though...