720 Degrees spinner, joystick, new thread, logitech hack

[Spacedueler]

I just came across this game in my mame setup. What a flashback I had! I searched the threads on original controls for it, but most lead to dead ends or were outdated. For input in v.123 it asks for AD Stick, but the original control was a specialized spinner (so I've read). Does this mean the chances or using the original control (if I could find one) or customizing a spinner (or mouse hack) is no longer possible since mame is currently supporting joysticks for 720 and not dials? Did the original control or spinner hacks ever work well for this game?

I've read how the original control was basically a special spinner that used one tooth on the y axis to calibrate at 12:00 and the x axis to turn the skater. That doesn't seem like it would be to hard for me to make, but getting it to work in mame I'd need some help.

In the mean time I'm hacking my $18 Logitech Attack 3 joystick. Just removing the spring makes playing this game 100x better. Next I'm going to either cut away the flat sides on the existing restrictor with a dremel for a full circular action, or I'm going to try to fit my own round restrictor into the existing one. I also have some ideas on how to mount a restrictor at the bottom of the base to prevent moving the stick through the middle. A cheap quick fix...

Any new news on using a U-360? Any new help on restrictors? How about the center blocking restrictor? I see they list a circular one that is a semi permanent install. Cost $60 (ouch) for a single game dedicated controller, although a much nicer finish and more durable than my quick fix... 

[Donkey_Kong]

Nice work. I'd say keep going with this. We have been trying to do something with the u360 and it's close but we need to prevent the stick from coming off the outer perimeter, like the actual 720 stick rides the outer perimeter, solely.

Check here for more on that...
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=72562.0


I have that exact same Logitech stick and have actually had my best luck playing 720 with that and haven't done any modification to it at all. This is why I say keep going, I'd be interested to see what you come up with. I believe the u360 has potential to be a great 720 stick, but we need an engineer to get a hold of one that is also a big fan of the game 720. I'm definitely not that guy.

Another thread I started awhile ago that has other 720 solutions by some of the forum pros...
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=60230.0

There are more threads, just search for 720 and quite a few pop up. Also, there are a few repros on the market but VERY expensive ($300) It has also been questioned on whether or not the original is compatible with mame, but possibly on older versions.

[SavannahLion]

Did you get a hold of the operators manual for 720 yet? It has a breakdown of the joystick/spinner thingie. It seems like it would be a big help in determining just how you should go about modifying your existing joystick to get the feel just right.

[NoOne=NBA=]

Here is the best site I know of that addresses this issue.

Jstookey's 720 Arcade Joystick Site

If this site hasn't been mirrored here, it should be.

[Spacedueler]

I went to the website listed above and downloaded the compiled mame and ran it with my 720 rom. I also copied his cfg file text into my /cfg/720.cfg file. While moving the mouse the X axis the skater steered left and right. Any movement on the Y axis and the skater slowly steers toward 12:00. I'll try it tomorrow with a two separate spinners. The two will give me better isolation of X and Y.

While this gives hope for a mouse hack 720 spinner with X and Y, I expected something different from my first test. I expected that the skater would jump immediately to 12 o'clock with the slightest movement of the mouse Y axis. Any thoughts? I'll play with it over the weekend.

[jerryjanis]

While this gives hope for a mouse hack 720 spinner with X and Y, I expected something different from my first test. I expected that the skater would jump immediately to 12 o'clock with the slightest movement of the mouse Y axis. Any thoughts? I'll play with it over the weekend.

When 720 first boots up, the first time that the calibration wheel (the Y axis) passes through the encoders, the skater jumps immediately to 12 o'clock.  After that initial calibration, it works like you said:  when the calibration wheel crosses the encoders after that, only a slight correction is made towards 12 o'clock.  I'm not sure why the creators did it this way, but I described this to somebody who owns a 720 machine on these forums, and he said that that's how it worked on the actual arcade machine.

[SavannahLion]

While this gives hope for a mouse hack 720 spinner with X and Y, I expected something different from my first test. I expected that the skater would jump immediately to 12 o'clock with the slightest movement of the mouse Y axis. Any thoughts? I'll play with it over the weekend.

When 720 first boots up, the first time that the calibration wheel (the Y axis) passes through the encoders, the skater jumps immediately to 12 o'clock.  After that initial calibration, it works like you said:  when the calibration wheel crosses the encoders after that, only a slight correction is made towards 12 o'clock.  I'm not sure why the creators did it this way, but I described this to somebody who owns a 720 machine on these forums, and he said that that's how it worked on the actual arcade machine.

I'm just guessing here, but I think the logic behind it is, if the encoders somehow start getting out of alignment during game play or if the internal software state generates an error in some fashion during same, you wouldn't want the skateboarder calibrating immediately to 12:00 every time that encoder wheel passes by. Just for giggles let's say that somehow, sometime right in the middle of a game, the encoders or the software state is off by 10 degrees. Rather than popping the skateboarder back to 12:00 when the alignment wheel swings by, offset by a single degree. If the skateboard is still out of alignment on the second pass, realign by another degree. Wash, rinse, and repeat, until the control is calibrated again. That way you keep the gamers happy by not jumping your skateboarder all over the place during crucial high scoring moves in the game.

  Of course, I didn't write the software or create the hardware so what the ---fudgesicle--- do I know? 

[TelcoLou]

Errrm, sorry for the hijack, but I was wondering about this;

I just got a new PC and was trying out some games that previously ran slow on my laptop. One was 720 ... it now runs great, speed and sounds seem spot-on. I read this thread and was prepared to use the linked web page to set up the controls to work with a standared 8-way joystick .. but discovered I don't need to 

I'm running Mame 0.110, and using a Logitech precision joypad .. and the skater controls perfectly; I push the pad in the direction I want to skate, and it goes there!

Is this some sort of weird cosmic anomaly, or maybe it's a  version-specific control scheme??
I'm glad it works this way "out of the box", was just very curious as to why 

[u_rebelscum]

I'm running Mame 0.110, and using a Logitech precision joypad .. and the skater controls perfectly; I push the pad in the direction I want to skate, and it goes there!

Is this some sort of weird cosmic anomaly, or maybe it's a  version-specific control scheme??
I'm glad it works this way "out of the box", was just very curious as to why 

Mame now simulates the (uncommon) original controller using the (much more PC common) analog joystick.  This pleases most people (example: yourself ).

The real reasons could include (but I'm just guessing):

• normal spinners didn't work well anyway
• the old method, as one plain dial/spinner, wasn't accurate emulation anyway (IOW, hooking up an original controller worked as poor as a normal spinner)
• the original control was an "indexed incremental encoder", whose signals can be transmitted through the standard two mouse axes; not exactly an easier to understand "dual axis spinner" but close
• since neither mame or windows have an "indexed incremental encoder" type input, mame has to choose between the types it does have: dial, dial + dial(vertical), or analog stick.  AFA documenting the original hardware they about the same; they just differ where and how it's documented
• with mame, using the analog joystick type would support both analog and 8-way joysticks
• in the user base, 8-way & analog sticks are more common than the original controls
• there are less complaints about controlling 720 now with the analog stick code
• a working mod (mine) that included an analog stick hack simulation was out for a while before mame included the same idea but better coded
• it's up the the driver's author to decide how these non-standard inputs are handled.

[TelcoLou]

Ah, thanks a bunch ... that was very informative 

[Spacedueler]

I'm going to put my 720 stick testing on hold for a while. I need to get my cab built first. Seems like the current options will temporarily make due for a mame cabinet, although eventually I'll pursue better options.

The progress on the Attack 3 posed its own problems. I don't think it would be that hard to build the appropriate restrictors but calibrating would be a big problem. Logitechs drivers calibrate the stick each time it's plugged into the computer. With the stick restricted to the side, it calibrates that position as center. With windows drivers calibration requires hitting a button with stick centered. The center restrictor would have to be designed to be able to disengage during calibration or when connecting the controller to the computer.

I already have a plan to build spinners using a mouse hack. After I get a somewhat workable cabinet I'll have more time to specialize one for 720, and I'll post the results back here.

[Cornchip]

  What a crazy controller. Jstookey's site was very informative (great pictures). I believe the U360 could be a good match for this game (it would be crazy expensive). Modding  an original 720 would be the easiest route. Keep everything above the lower ball that moves the eccentric. Below the eccentric, the U360 magnet would be mounted offset (and angled) to center on a shaft driven by the eccentric. A problem that could pop up is the control movements would be opposite when viewed from above (stick at the top of the arc would actually be at the 'down' area of the U360 PCB). The base would have to be rotated 180 degree's to fix that (or the U360 PCB). Seems like a lot of work to play a single dedicated game unless there's others that use this same 720 joystick.

 Cornchip.

[u_rebelscum]

...A problem that could pop up is the control movements would be opposite when viewed from above (stick at the top of the arc would actually be at the 'down' area of the U360 PCB).

No problem here.  That's how the u360 works already; the pivot point is between the top and the sensor.  Very much like the super, competition, perfect360 digital joysticks too.

[Cornchip]

   Wow...I missed that.     The controls are already reversed with the U360 when viewed from the top. Placing the magnet in a holder on the lower shaft (offset) and held to that shaft with a setscrew could also give any orientation you needed for this application (or just rotate the U360 PCB 180 to suit if it was even a problem).

 Cornchip.