wtf!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!rom sets for sale?

[boranes]

well just got back from this huge comic book convention called megacon, which is in orlando fl
and what to i stumble upon as im walking around? a guy selling rom set, yes selling!!!!
all of the them sega,snes super nintendo and mame. using such apps as mame 32, zsnes gens and etc. claiming that he wrote a programs to allow his customers to play thousand of gamings..
heres the prices.
mame (hole mame set). 40$
snes,gens, game boy advance ,sega cd (hole set) 25$

unfortunately i was not able to get any info on this fellow or a picture as he "only sells a conventions"
i know this takes place everyday, but the fact that hes claiming to write the program's himself? he had to made at least 1500 to 2000 dollars in a coarse of 3 days!




the guy in the back works at different booth and is no way connected with this scumbag!

[Games001]

Actually, there is a fine line here.

It has been said by some that thee is NO legal breach if you sell a CD/DVD ser of ROMS, so long as there is not profit in the sale.  Charging for the time and resources it takes to make the rom set is still a hazzle, but charging for the roms themselves is a 'legal' way to do business.

I agree that the roms need to be protected and they need to be available to ALL persons, not just the lucky few that can afford $500-$3000 per machine.  GO White-Hats!

[fixedpigs]

It has been said by some that thee is NO legal breach if you sell a CD/DVD ser of ROMS, so long as there is not profit in the sale.

he wouldn't be wasting his time with them if he wasn't making a profit...

[Patent Doc]

Actually, there is a fine line here.

It has been said by some that thee is NO legal breach if you sell a CD/DVD ser of ROMS, so long as there is not profit in the sale.  Charging for the time and resources it takes to make the rom set is still a hazzle, but charging for the roms themselves is a 'legal' way to do business.

I agree that the roms need to be protected and they need to be available to ALL persons, not just the lucky few that can afford $500-$3000 per machine.  GO White-Hats!

Games001

You are incorrect.  Unless this guy has a distribution license for all the ROMS he is providing, what is being done is VERY illegal and, in fact, the selling of ROMS is protected.  You might have heard of copyright.  Well, this very real protection is what covers the games.  You are not allowed to copy for distribution whether you sell or not.  The only gray area is when an individual copies the ROMS they own or has someone do this for them.  This is why people who distribute ROMS provide the disclaimer that one enlisting their service will be in violation of copyright if they don't own the ROMS and since they can't verify what you own, your use of their service is an implied agreement that you are not obtaining the ROMS illegally (or something to that effect).  Essentially this disclaimer protects the ROM distributor by providing a defense of "they claimed they had legal right to own the ROM and I told them that was required...it's not my fault they lied."  That people don't charge for more than materials is further insulation from damages beyond the statutory ones.  The lack of charge is also a courtesy to the community.  Just because nobody has been sued for copyright infringement doesn't make it legal.

Moreover, selling many of the emulators is in violation of those lisencing agreements and would subject a  person to civil suit there as well (copyright out of the question here as it is freeware and nothing procludes anyone from copying the files many times).

In short, the dude at the convention is doing something illegal and runs the risk of endangering the online ROM providers as the visibility is greater.  Although ROM providers have a reasonable defense (whereas this guy has none), I would hate to face civil charges and use it...the odds are not great in their favor.  Hell the company running the convention can also get sued for this guys actions.

I might add, the illegality of ROMS is why it is a taboo subject to ask where to get them on this board.

[shardian]

That is pretty ---smurfy--- methinks.
I think I would have mentioned the illegality to the convention manager so he could shut the guy down. I love playing emulators, but I also believe that all of it should stay in the FREE domain and people spread it by person to person directly and P2P digitally.

I HATE it when people blatantly try to profit off of this stuff in this manner.

[CheffoJeffo]

Actually, there is a fine line here.

Nope.

Uh uh.

Not really.

Ooops.

[shardian]

Actually, there is a fine line here.

It has been said by some that thee is NO legal breach if you sell a CD/DVD ser of ROMS, so long as there is not profit in the sale.  Charging for the time and resources it takes to make the rom set is still a hazzle, but charging for the roms themselves is a 'legal' way to do business.

The "some" you heard that from are wrong. Roms are copyrighted intellectual property.

If you need clarification, as all those people who were sued for "distributing without profit" songs on Napster.

Distributing roms is against the law. Sorry, that is a fact. Accept it and move along.

[saint]

Actually, there is a fine line here.

It has been said by some that thee is NO legal breach if you sell a CD/DVD ser of ROMS, so long as there is not profit in the sale.  Charging for the time and resources it takes to make the rom set is still a hazzle, but charging for the roms themselves is a 'legal' way to do business.

I agree that the roms need to be protected and they need to be available to ALL persons, not just the lucky few that can afford $500-$3000 per machine.  GO White-Hats!

Complete fabrication. Distributing ROMs, regardless of whether or not you make any money on it, is illegal. Period. The only exception are ROMS where the copyright holder has granted permission to you to distribute them.

(OK, I'm just jumping on the bandwagon here but it's worth repeating. )

[Games001]

Very well, I stand corrected.  My misunderstanding of the recent piracy laws.

[TelcoLou]

They do this all the time at computer shows. Only the very naive would buy NES, SNES, Genesis, etc. roms anyway 

[Patent Doc]

Games001

Not a problem...we all have had our share of misunderstandings.  It could always be worse, you could have learned you were wrong by being sued by a copyright holder.

FYI - and, not meant to rub salt on you, but these "recent" laws were in effect in at least 1976 so not exactly recent.

[rlemmon]

My understanding was wrong to. I thought if you got them from a rom burner (0nly paying for materials) that it was ok.  Not the first time iv'e been wrong......or the last

[Xiaou2]

Distributing ROMs, regardless of whether or not you make any money on it, is illegal

 How did everyone here get their roms?   Someone had to distribute
them.   And more than likely, nobody has ONLY the roms they own.
 
 I dont see why people get their panties in a twist over this stuff.   If you have Roms
you are not supposed to have,  then you are just as guilty as the people you
point fingers at.

 So, is it that you are jealous cause the people make money off of selling it, and
you are not?    Id bet if your HD crashed the day before the show, you sure
wouldnt mind picking up a fresh CD set from that guy...

 If you didnt realize,  people actually making a big stinking thread about this
stuff only makes more Negative attention to it,  thus making things seem much worse
than the real event itself. 

 If the people who owned the copyrights were so infuriated.. then let them take
care of the guy.    As it stood before - nobody would have known,  and all
would be happy.   Drawing attention to it only may cause companies to decide
to do something drastic.  Leaving it alone, they instead may just take down
the occasional 'mass-seller'.  Not to mention, you just manage to make a good
day filled with a spot of negativity.


 Also, I gota say, this is nothing compared to people who pirate a new movie for example.
Or even people who sell new movie bootlegs...

 Drop the 'Holier than Thou' crap, and get real people.   Loosen up. Relax. Enjoy
your pirated roms while you can.

 

[CheffoJeffo]

Loosen up. Relax.

I can't ... someone is watching me through my TV ... 

[shardian]

 So, is it that you are jealous cause the people make money off of selling it, and
you are not?   

...

 Drop the 'Holier than Thou' crap, and get real people.   Loosen up. Relax. Enjoy
your pirated roms while you can.

 

It's not jealousy, it is annoyance.  And in cases of blatant selling like this guy, it also has nothing to do with "holier than thou". He blows the moral gray area right out of the water with a frikkin nuke.

You mentioned movie piracy. Once upon a time, that was just an annoyance to the MPAA. There was a street vendor here and there in large cities. When it first started in digital form, few people knew about it. Once it became "mainstream" though, all hell broke loose. You can find pirateers at every flea market in the country here in the states. It is 1 million times worse in the rest of the world.

You get enough "vendors" of roms out there and it will start to get noticed. I don't think it is a bad thing to shut down "vendors" of roms. The more we keep it in the P2P domain, the less it gets noticed.

[MaximRecoil]

My understanding was wrong to. I thought if you got them from a rom burner (0nly paying for materials) that it was ok.  Not the first time iv'e been wrong......or the last

It is okay...with most of the community anyway. Copyright law is something entirely different than the "honor among thieves" that goes on in the emulation community.

BTW, I'm not calling anyone a "thief". It is just a well-known phrase so I used it to illustrate a concept. Plus, it sounds better than "honor among copyright violators".

[Turnarcades]

It's not worth getting into the old MAME/rom legality issue; we all know where it stands, or should anyway.

It's not uncommon; and not just with emulators. At computer fairs in the UK the organisers supposedly actively regulate the content of the markets, but every time I go, it's chipped cable boxes, pirated software (rows and rows of stalls), blatantly stolen goods and the one at Dunstall race course in Wolverhampton usually has a dude there who chips consoles way before anyone thinks they can be cracked. He was doing 360's with the anti-online-detection chips before the console was even available in the UK, let alone the chips available globally.

It was here I first played the PS3 and several had been obtained by admittedly dodgy means for resale.

[TelcoLou]

Actually .. now that I think about it, did you get any permission from the people in the attached pic to reprint them here?

If not, that's illegal you know ... they could sue you.

[FrizzleFried]

Loosen up. Relax.

I can't ... someone is watching me through my TV ... 

Yah?  I was just sent a free ticket to something called a "Death Train"?!?

 

[FrizzleFried]

Actually .. now that I think about it, did you get any permission from the people in the attached pic to reprint them here?

If not, that's illegal you know ... they could sue you.

Not true...a photo taken in public is public domain.  At worst the venue organizers may hold a claim since the venue isn't technically "public" but rather "private".

[CheffoJeffo]

C'mon Frizz!

Stop expecting people to make sense -- this is one of those threads where everybody jumps on somebody for having the temerity to sell what everybody else just takes for free !!

 

[TelcoLou]

Actually .. now that I think about it, did you get any permission from the people in the attached pic to reprint them here?

If not, that's illegal you know ... they could sue you.

Not true...a photo taken in public is public domain.  At worst the venue organizers may hold a claim since the venue isn't technically "public" but rather "private".

... hmm, well they DO charge an admission fee to get into these events, so wouldn't that make it a private venue? It's rude at the very least .. I wouldn't want my face available for anyone to glare at without my express permission 

[daywane]

you snobs with high speed internet vrack me up
try 28 k as the fastest you can get on the internet,
I love these guys

[saint]

Distributing ROMs, regardless of whether or not you make any money on it, is illegal

 How did everyone here get their roms?   Someone had to distribute
them.   And more than likely, nobody has ONLY the roms they own.
 
 I dont see why people get their panties in a twist over this stuff.   If you have Roms
you are not supposed to have,  then you are just as guilty as the people you
point fingers at.

 Drop the 'Holier than Thou' crap, and get real people.   Loosen up. Relax. Enjoy
your pirated roms while you can.

You completely miss the point of this thread. The question asked wasn't, "is it moral" but "is it legal?" to which the answer is a plain no. The moral question is one for everyone to answer on their own. The legal question if cut and dry.

Meh, I'm wrong the opening post was a bit of either.

[saint]

Actually .. now that I think about it, did you get any permission from the people in the attached pic to reprint them here?

If not, that's illegal you know ... they could sue you.

Not true...a photo taken in public is public domain.  At worst the venue organizers may hold a claim since the venue isn't technically "public" but rather "private".

... hmm, well they DO charge an admission fee to get into these events, so wouldn't that make it a private venue? It's rude at the very least .. I wouldn't want my face available for anyone to glare at without my express permission 

There is no expectation of privacy at a public gathering like that. Though there may have been a charge to get in, it's not someone's home or a bathroom or someplace where you have a reasonable expectation of privacy.

[boranes]

its not the the roms that got my panties all tied up, but the fact that he said he wrote these programs like mame32 and zsnes..etc taking claim where he does not deserve..

[Thy]

Most people like this try and use the loophole that you're paying for the burning service and not the roms. Not sure if that would hold up but I've seen that disclaimer thrown around a bit.

[CheffoJeffo]

Most people like this try and use the loophole that you're paying for the burning service and not the roms. Not sure if that would hold up but I've seen that disclaimer thrown around a bit.

OK, except as people explained above, there is no loophole.

[Thy]

OK, except as people explained above, there is no loophole.

I understand that, was just pointing out about the disclaimer mainly. As the beaten horse has said, it's illegal, no doubt about it.

[ark_ader]

OK, except as people explained above, there is no loophole.

I understand that, was just pointing out about the disclaimer mainly. As the beaten horse has said, it's illegal, no doubt about it.

Unless you are a library, or a collector obtaining resources for documenting a history of computer games, which the Library of Congress is doing.  Intersting link :http://kotaku.com/gaming/feature/the-library-of-congress-loves-video-games-313328.php

[mrserv0n]

Not a question of legal or illegal, its illegal. period, copyrighted material. done.

Question is does a development team want to sue you for a game they made in 1994 and havent made money on since 1995. Answer No. So your not going to get in trouble for it.

If you sell things people DO make money on, movies, or xbox 360 games, you will get busted. Lets use morbid.net , was caught selling xbox games 1:1 backups. Shutdown, received 2-3 years supervised release , and a fine. finished it, started up AGAIN selling 1:1 wii, 360, ps2 backups, BUSTED AGAIN, got 2 years in prison and a $2500 fine.

On the flip side, there are mame burners out there who have been selling mame, daphne etc for over 8 years and are still up and kicking. Because noone is going to sue you for an atari or arcade set.

I see nothing wrong with selling roms, that are out of development and no longer making money in the open market,  its convenient and quick for people to get games, For those who downloaded there mame set vs buying it from a burner and thinks there method of obtaining the games is OK needs there head checked. theres no difference there.

[rrcade]

Everyone here has full sets of Roms...........Don't tell me you are Legally entitled to own and play every game.......Get off your high horse.

[Thy]

Everyone here has full sets of Roms...........Don't tell me you are Legally entitled to own and play every game.......Get off your high horse.

Whilst everyone may have full sets, they don't sell them to make a profit. Next time have a full read of the post. As saint said, we all use the roms but that's a moral issue, the selling of them is a legal issue more to the point, and the original post was about selling them, not possessing them.

[havic626]

Everyone here has full sets of Roms...........Don't tell me you are Legally entitled to own and play every game.......Get off your high horse.

im legally entitled cause i own every arcade machine mame emulate! 
you belive me right?? right??

[Bluedeath]

While detaining ROMs whithout having the physical counterpart IS illegal in almost all the world period.
While Is even morally (not only legally) questionable to sell copirighted material without having rights. The behaviour of trying to earn cash  from works that has been done 30 years ago is questionable also, with this I'm not saying that perople shouldn't earn money from their work (even if we know that the money is noy going to programmers and artists pockets), i'm, just saying that rom should be sold by the detainers at a symbolical price (1 dollar each for example)to own the original thing legally (not e repogrammed version like the collections that can be foud for pc and consoles).

I can understand (the one around here that say that never downloaded a ROM image that he/she  doesn't own is a liar) morally peolple who buy collections of rom because they don't have broadband connection what i cannot accept is that someone harvest money from these people , I can allow that someone can ask let me say twice the price of the blank support ,l ert me say to compensate the cd/dvd burned wear (and twice price of the blank is alreadyt an inflated compensation).

One question if someone has a conversioe (i.e. strider for c64) can we say that the right to play other verssions of it are included also?

[Jdurg]

Not a question of legal or illegal, its illegal. period, copyrighted material. done.

Question is does a development team want to sue you for a game they made in 1994 and havent made money on since 1995. Answer No. So your not going to get in trouble for it.

If you sell things people DO make money on, movies, or xbox 360 games, you will get busted. Lets use morbid.net , was caught selling xbox games 1:1 backups. Shutdown, received 2-3 years supervised release , and a fine. finished it, started up AGAIN selling 1:1 wii, 360, ps2 backups, BUSTED AGAIN, got 2 years in prison and a $2500 fine.

On the flip side, there are mame burners out there who have been selling mame, daphne etc for over 8 years and are still up and kicking. Because noone is going to sue you for an atari or arcade set.

I see nothing wrong with selling roms, that are out of development and no longer making money in the open market,  its convenient and quick for people to get games, For those who downloaded there mame set vs buying it from a burner and thinks there method of obtaining the games is OK needs there head checked. theres no difference there.

It's not that rock solid of an argument.  Unless those copyrights have fallen into the public domain (which they have not), there is someone out there who owns the rights to those ROMS.  If Microsoft, or Nintendo, or Sony wanted to sell those games on their online arcade system but somebody was distributing them for free or selling them and making money off of them, you bet your damned soul that they will sue the living hell out of that person.  So going around and believing that you're not going to be sued because the game is very old is a tiny bit naive.

I think the big "anger" with the person selling the roms is the fact that he's trying to make people think he did all the work to write the software and dump the data from the roms and put everything together so that he can charge an exorbinant price.  I've seen E-Bay sellers and websites selling full rom discs for $5.00 and stating that they are just covering the materials cost and not claiming that they developed the software and code.

The legality of the ROMS is a moot point.  What this guy is doing is akin to selling "free samples" of something for high prices and making people think that he's the one who created the stuff.  Meanwhile, the people could go down the road and get the exact same thing for free.  It's taking advantage of people and morally I find that far more wrong than downloading a ROM in the first place.  Hell, if I was at that show I would draw a sign on posterboard with links to sites where people could get the exact same software for free and stand right in front of his booth.  If he said something to me, I'd make him regret it.

[shardian]

Hell, if I was at that show I would draw a sign on posterboard with links to sites where people could get the exact same software for free and stand right in front of his booth.  If he said something to me, I'd make him regret it.

 

That would be good right there.

[saint]

One question if someone has a conversioe (i.e. strider for c64) can we say that the right to play other verssions of it are included also?

No. There's no legal basis for that. Also, often times one version is done by a company who has licensed the rights to do so from the original copyright holder, but are not themselves the original copyright holders. Owning version "a" of a game does not give you the legal right to use version "b" of the game you don't own.

[gnateye]

It is 1 million times worse in the rest of the world.

i'm not sure how true this is, i've read an article in wired about dvd pirating in china seems to be a huge epidemic there as well, and they have a few more people then us.... im sure the MPAA would love to have us all believe that the US is the worst.


also, and i'm not taking sides here just an observation; hasn't anyone on here been to any kind of scifi convention before? they are hotbeds of movies (new and old) pirates and anime and any tv shows you can think of always have been, before the internets you had to goto a Con to score stuff most would get from bittorrents now. again i'm not taking any sides just observing. i do think the guy claiming to have written the programs is bunk, but ive heard worse smack at Cons before.

my measly 2 cents

[Bluedeath]

One question if someone has a conversion (i.e. strider for c64) can we say that the right to play other versions of it are included also?

No. There's no legal basis for that. Also, often times one version is done by a company who has licensed the rights to do so from the original copyright holder, but are not themselves the original copyright holders. Owning version "a" of a game does not give you the legal right to use version "b" of the game you don't own.

thanks for pointing that out. but if i use images of the software that i own on the emulation of the machine that runs it is "bullet proof" legal right? (Taking for granted that i even got the machine but it may be broken or dead)