First standalone CP, looking for input

[mperemsky]

I am making a 2 person control panel that I want to be friendly to my 8 and 7 year old sons. Meaning I would prefer to have pause, quit buttons that did not require shift keys.


Admin Buttons:

Enter, Pause, Menu, Escape
1-player coin, 1-player start
2-player coin, 2-player start

Joysticks and button layout:

I was thinking of using 2 Mag-Stik Plus joysticks from Ultimarc as those allow you to switch from 4 to 8 way without having to take anything apart.

As far as button layouts for the joysticks I was thinking of 8 buttons for each joystick. For some reason I thought that there were some fighting games that had 8 buttons. I looked through MOST of the CPs that people have put together and did not really see any that had more than 7 buttons with a joystick. Am I mistaken in there being games with 8 buttons?



Trackball and button layout:

I was going to go with the 3" usb trackball (from Happ)? Instead of having dedicated buttons for the trackball I was thinking of using the player 1 buttons. I do not remember any games other than Missile command that used a trackball and up to 3 buttons, so using either the 8 button setup I originally planned or the 7 button setup I see other using (if that is recommended) should work equally well for this.


Spinner and button layout:

As suggested to me by dm, I am thinking of going with the umtimarc spintrak usb. I am not 100% certain as to the best use of buttons with the spinner. I am thinking that I should use dedicated buttons, but am not sure how many buttons I would need for this. I am thinking of 2. I can only think of Tempest which uses 2 buttons, the fire button and the zap button. Are there other games which use a spinner and more than 2 buttons?


Active buttons:

From what I have been reading, I (think) the most active buttons I would have during any 1 game with this setup is (8 for the 8-way joystick + 8 for the 8 buttons associated with the joystick (7 if this gets reduced) + 2 for coin and start) * 2 + 4 admin buttons. For a grand total of (8 + 8 + 2) * 2 = 36 + 4 = 40.

Is my calculation correct? If so, what kind of controller IPac-2(?) would I need for this type of setup? I want to be able to use a USB connection to connect this to my computer.

Last question.

I was kind of confused; if I plug in the CP to a USB port can I leave the keyboard plugged in too or will the computer get "confused". It seems to me as long as only one input device (CP or keyboard) was being used (even though both are plugged in) it should be fine.


A start at the CP looks like the following (reduced to 7 buttons on joysticks)



I look forward to your feedback, tax refund is coming soon and I need to spend at least some of it on something fun instead of just dumping it ALL on the credit card bill. :-)

[Jdurg]

The pass-thru features of the I-Pac have you plug the keyboard into the I-Pac and the I-Pac connects like a normal keyboard would.  So when you build your CP, I would suggest figuring out a way to have a keyboard plug connector at the back of the CP.  (If you are going by the PS/2 connection method).

Your calculations for the buttons are a bit off.  8-way joysticks only have 4 inputs.  Up, Down, Left, and Right.  The other four directions are determined by combinations of the four basic inputs.  Up-Right is actually two inputs being pressed at the same time by the bottom of the joystick.  (Up and Right).  The difference between the four way and eight way sticks is that a four way stick won't recognize two inputs being pressed at the same time.  A true four-way stick has a restrictor which prevents two inputs from being pressed at the same time.  8-ways that act as a four-way joystick are just ignoring the diagonals, but you can still physically move the joystick in that direction.

So for your panel you would need 32 unique inputs which means you would have to get the I-Pac4 since the I-Pac2 only has room for 28 inputs.

[javeryh]

A couple of comments:

IMO, the only joysticks that are friendly to use for people other than the builder (and especially kids) are the ones you can program like the U360.  No 7 year old is going to be able to switch from Pac-Man to Street Fighter and also switch the joystick from 4-way to 8-way.  That's my experience anyway - I have switchable joys on one of my cabs and every time people are playing it whether it is kids or friends every single game gets played in 8-way mode because they don't know or care.  I need to overhaul it.

I'm not sure why you need "menu" or "enter" buttons.

The top row could be laid out a little better I think - something more symmetrical and pleasing to the eye.  Also, your spinner buttons seem to be very far apart (and I think the other action buttons are too but that's a personal preference).

Some people put 8 buttons on a CP for console emulation.  If you are going to use MAME only then 6 is plenty - the 7th is for the "proper" neo-geo layout but it isn't necessary.  Also, an 8 way joystick doesn't have 8 switches - when you move into the diagonals two switches get pressed simultaneously.

2 buttons for the spinner is enough (I think - I wouldn't add any more.  Check maws for the list of spinner games that use more than 2).

Good luck and post a lot of pictures when you get started!   

[Fozzy The Bear]

So for your panel you would need 32 unique inputs which means you would have to get the I-Pac4 since the I-Pac2 only has room for 28 inputs.

If he needs 32 inputs then the Keywiz provides that without the extra expense and additional unnessesary inputs of the Ipac4.  Check out www.groovygamegear.com Keywiz MAX 1.5 offers exactly what he needs including a keyboard socket.

Another thing to avoid is a key encoder that uses USB as this limits the number of simultanious keystrokes that are allowed.

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)

[CrazyKongFan]

Maybe it's me, but I don't consider player start buttons to be admin...they're they're on original machines and it's kinda hard to play without them That being said, I only recently got my cabinet going, and I included 3 separate admin buttons on the panel, ESC, TAB and P. It's so much easier going thru and tweaking things having ESC and TAB readily available, and of course, P (pause) is really nice to have. I also have a reset and service button, but I located them in the proper location, on the little bracket inside the coin door. I've also got the coin mechs wired up (although only one works by dropping coins in, I need the plastic mech on the other one), but did utilize a couple of old security bolt holes by the coin door to press in a couple of Radio Shack push buttons to do coin 1 and 2. They certainly weren't required though.

[ArtsNFartsNCrafts]

A couple of comments:

IMO, the only joysticks that are friendly to use for people other than the builder (and especially kids) are the ones you can program like the U360.  No 7 year old is going to be able to switch from Pac-Man to Street Fighter and also switch the joystick from 4-way to 8-way. 

Right you are.  Not to mention that switching it takes a bit of elbow grease!  The thing is built quite sturdily.


...or maybe I'm just really freakin' outta shape! 

[ivwshane]

So for your panel you would need 32 unique inputs which means you would have to get the I-Pac4 since the I-Pac2 only has room for 28 inputs.

If he needs 32 inputs then the Keywiz provides that without the extra expense and additional unnessesary inputs of the Ipac4.  Check out www.groovygamegear.com Keywiz MAX 1.5 offers exactly what he needs including a keyboard socket.

Another thing to avoid is a key encoder that uses USB as this limits the number of simultanious keystrokes that are allowed.

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)

I've heard people say that about usb but then on ggg's website they have this header on their usb gp-wiz.

Unlike USB Keyboard Interface technology, USB Gamepad interfaces have no limits on simultaneous button presses. They are also faster, capable of delivering the status of all 32 inputs every 10ms. They are easy to install, and multiple units may be used at the same time with no conflicts.

Am I missing something?
For the best performance (lets say a two player button masher) which one would perform better, the keywiz or gp-wiz (usb)?

[mperemsky]

Thanks for the helpful feedback. I would put quotes in here but still a noob and not sure how to get quotes from multiple postings into a single posting. So here goes...

Jdurg/javeryh:

Thanks for the correction on the 8-way joystick for counting active buttons.

javeryh:

I saw the "menu" and "enter" buttons on a mamewah interface in the CP sticky post. I have not been able to get mamewah running on my machine yet. I made the ASS-umption that these were useful for mamewah. If not, then I will need to re-think these.

I was thinking of trying to implement the SNES and maybe the Atari 2600 emulators also. The SNES has 6 play buttons, not sure how easy that would be to play on a CP like this. The Left and Right buttons on the controller do not seem like they would be very friendly on a CP like this. So it seems like the 7-button layout will be more than sufficient.

Not sure what maws are in "check maws for a list of spinner games that use more than 2 buttons".

Fozzy:

Thanks for the note about the usb vs. ps2, I had forgotten about that. I looked up the IPac-4 and the Keywiz Max 1.5. Looks like the Keywiz is about half the price. Have you tried both the IPac and Keywiz before? Do I need a dedicated button on the keyboard for the Shazaaam Key on the Keywiz?

CrazyKongFan:

Yeah, I did not really think of the start/coin as admin per se, just kind of threw them in there to include all the buttons. At least we both have Escape and Pause the same.  Now, if I use the Keywiz, do I need a Shazaaam key as an Admin key?!?


Joysticks...how to integrate

Hmm, I was kind of wondering how hard it would be for the boys to switch the joysticks from 8-way to 4-way. Do the U360's work well for all 2/4/8/+ way games? I see online that the U360 uses an analog/usb connection, how does this connect to the IPac-4 or the Keywiz? Does the joystick not connect to this piece of hardware or is there some other piece needed to get them to talk to each other? This part is very confusing to me.

CP Image 2:

Ok, here is an updated CP image. Slightly more compact 14" x 29". For some reason 29" wide seems kind of wide to me, how wide are panels typically?

[javeryh]

MAWS is a sortable database on the games in MAME - you can search by controls to see which games use what.  http://www.mameworld.net/maws/

As for the U360, it can switch from 4-way to 2-way to 8-way, etc. on the fly.  It is totally customizable.  You plug it in by USB and not into an encoder (like the ipac).  There is a harness for it which allows for 8 additional inputs (more via shifting) but you are going to need more than that, I think.  The only thing I should mention about the U360 that certain people may not like is that there are no switches and no restrictor plate (although you can add one if you want).  It takes a bit of getting used to but once you do I think it's the best "all-in-one" solution.

Your revised CP looks a bit better - I don't think your button layout is ergonomic enough for my tastes but that's a personal preference.  I like this one and a 7th button could easily be added if that's what you want:



SNES and Atari 2600 should be playable with your setup but you also have to have a solution for start and select because some games used those buttons as well if I remember correctly - you could map them using the shift function of the ipac because I don't think you will need them while playing other than to view in game maps or something.   

29" is pretty narrow for a 2 player CP with trackball.  I'm working on one now that's 34" wide so if you can do it in 29" that's great! 

[DaveMMR]

Now, if I use the Keywiz, do I need a Shazaaam key as an Admin key?!?

Ok, here is an updated CP image. Slightly more compact 14" x 29". For some reason 29" wide seems kind of wide to me, how wide are panels typically?

I would make the Shazaam key some small, hidden button that only you really know about, especially since you have Pause, Exit and Coin buttons anyway.   It's not horrible on the panel though - just hanging around wasting space and tempting people to press it leading to those inevitable "what does this do?" questions.

Secondly, ditch the TAB key.  Especially if you're going to be using a shifted-button method (Shaazam key) to map additional commands.  Leaving the TAB key out in the open is inviting people to come and mess with your settings.

And 14" x 29" should be fine.  I have a 10" x 25" panel and all the same controls (TB, Spin, 6 button), and I have no complaints at all.   Although javeryh is right in saying that if you go a bit wider/deeper, you have more comfort.

[tel0004]

What I'm planning on doing for select and start is maping it to the one player and two player buttons.  Just program it in the console emulator to be 1 and 2, which is the defualt for one and two players.  There is no shift key required with that setup, and I plan on putting a one and two player logo on the buttons, and a select and start logo on the CP. 

The only problem with this design is that they have to be next to each other.

[RetroACTIVE]

For me personally, I prefer the 1P, 2P 1COIN, 2COIN together...  I would put them up at the top (centered if possible)... and ditch the spinner buttons... You have plenty of p1 and p2 buttons you could use for spinner games..  most probably prefer having the dedicated spinner buttons but for a small 2 player panel you may be happier with less buttons overall.

Have fun! 

[mperemsky]

retroACTIVE:

Aesthetically, I think the coin/start buttons look better in the middle. Had to move the spinner and buttons over (I want the dedicated buttons, must use for Tempest)  
 
javeryh:

Thanks for the ergonomic input, I was not sure about the straight buttons on the control panel. Just in looking at your diagramand putting my fingers on my keyboard that seemed friendlier to me already. I think I am going to try to implement the controls as you show them.

From other threads I think I am going to try the controls in a cardboard mock up before I cut any boards to make sure that they seem right. This should also let me know if the 14" x 29" layout needs to be stretched in either direction.

tel004:

I can probably do the same for mapping the select/start  buttons, I do not think the kids will be playing those games and if they do they will have to learn those keys. :=)

As for the U360, it can switch from 4-way to 2-way to 8-way, etc. on the fly.  It is totally customizable.  You plug it in by USB and not into an encoder (like the ipac).  There is a harness for it which allows for 8 additional inputs (more via shifting) but you are going to need more than that, I think.

So, if I have 2 U360 joysticks, then I need 2 usb cables to go from the CP to the computer for them to work? from a quick perusal of the ultimarc site, this appears to be what is happening.

So,, I would have the spinner and trackball go to the ipac, along with the buttons, then have an additional 2 usb connections for the 2 joysticks. So in the end, 2 connections from the CP to the computer, 1 PS2 and 2 USB.

Updated CP image
I like the ergonomic buttons better. I moved the 1 and 2 player buttons together and shifter the spinner over a little.



Again, thanks for the feedback. I greatly appreciate eveyone's input.