The joystick of choice?

[helpmebuild]

Hey all,

Probably another noob question but I would love some feedback from those who know best - this forum! I am about to place my orders for my 4-player CP parts, and still have not completely settled on which joystick(s) to go with. I am looking at the Happ site and Groovy and noticing some serious differences in the styles between the diff sites. The Happ stuff seems more "typical" while some of the stuff at Groovy seems a little more "unorthodox" I suppose? I don't really know what I am looking for. I would like an overall good joystick for everything from fighter's to some 1942 or Joust - a multi purpose stick if you will. Is there one that you guys would recommend for quality and performance? Any insight would be great!

[TheShanMan]

If multipurpose is what you're after, consider a switchable 4-way/8-way joystick, such as the Ultimarc Mag Stik Plus or the GroovyGameGear switchable one. You wouldn't need 4 of those (I'm not sure that there are any games with 2 4-way's), but you could go with one of these and then 8 ways for the rest.

[MaximRecoil]

If multipurpose is what you're after, consider a switchable 4-way/8-way joystick, such as the Ultimarc Mag Stik Plus or the GroovyGameGear switchable one. You wouldn't need 4 of those (I'm not sure that there are any games with 2 4-way's), but you could go with one of these and then 8 ways for the rest.

Karate Champ VS. uses two 4-ways for each player (four 4-ways total).

[Level42]

The Happ stuff seems more "typical" while some of the stuff at Groovy seems a little more "unorthodox" I suppose?

Depends on what side of the pond you live. In Europe, most of us "grew up" with Suzo's 500(=GGG) sticks, so the Happ stuff would be more unorthodox for us.

I know I've said it a million times before but there's nothing that beats Suzo's Inductive IMHO, especialy at the price.

[Timoe]

And I am a fan of the Seimitsu LS-40-01 or perhaps the Sanwa JLF-TP-8YT

[Silhouette]

I'm a big fan of the Suzo System 500 leaf switch sticks, they have the throw and response of a directional pad and a comfortable balltop design.

[danny_galaga]

i cant actually remember what type of joystick was prevalent in australia at the time. but i have sanwas and they feel 'right' and the fact that they are readily available here tells me that is what was common back in the day...

[helpmebuild]

OK so I have done much more searching for Sanwa and Seimitsu products and realized that they tend to be more difficult to find online and in stores especially for someone in Canada (me). My main concern though is that both of these manf seem to have a catalogue of "balltop" joys and I cant really say that's what I'm used to or interested in. I seem to be reading that the quality and build of the Japanese stuff is better so I'm curious if anyone knows of any models made by Sanwa or Seimitsu that are similar in their look and feel to the Happ stuff? I don't know what it is but I just cant see myself playing SFII with one of those round balltop joys at all. It seems very foreign and/or 80's to me. I'm sure for a little Frogger or something I could deal but for many diff games I don't know about these.

[leapinlew]

Here is where you want to start:
http://www.amazon.com/Project-Arcade-Build-Your-Machine/dp/0764556169
(The author owns this site)

It's cool your posting questions and getting involved, but many of the questions your asking have been debated for years. Spend a little time educating yourself and come back to post a project announcement or ask a question that hasn't been asked a 1,000 times before.

Good luck with your build.

[helpmebuild]

Here is where you want to start:
http://www.amazon.com/Project-Arcade-Build-Your-Machine/dp/0764556169
(The author owns this site)

It's cool your posting questions and getting involved, but many of the questions your asking have been debated for years. Spend a little time educating yourself and come back to post a project announcement or ask a question that hasn't been asked a 1,000 times before.

Good luck with your build.

No disrespect, but I do own that book, and always spend plenty of time to find answers elsewhere by researching before turning to a forum such as this one. Personally I think its a little rude to tell me to come back when I have a question that "hasn't been asked a 1,000 time before" . To my understanding this is a community for people who share a common hobby, or even profession, in some cases - and intimidating enough as it is to start such a task - as a first timer it is made far more intimidating to receiving criticism or sly remarks to questions that are posted such as mine. I have seen plenty of "joystick" questions posted in my searching through the forums and other sites, but none that were really in the vain that mine was. Again, after seeing your previous posts and you overall influence and sheer number of posts in the forum, I am in no way trying to disrespect you or anyone else. I may be a noob to MAME cabinets and this forum as a whole, but that doesn't mean I don't understand where you are coming from. I get the fact that some people post questions that could be answered with a simple search rather than posting it again on a board bombarded with re-posts, but as mine was a little different from posts before it (to my knowledge) and was asking opinions more so than questions, I just found it a little rude. Once I accumulate all my knowledge and have all my questions answered, like anyone else would want, I will begin and complete my project and post the results (and possibly the process) here for others to view. I just think that for something like this Arcade/Mame cabinets) with such a tight knit and small community and following that you would be a little more accepting of new (albeit weary) members. I'm not here to make enemies, but rather the exact opposite. I just felt it was necessary to address your post as it was rather bothersome when I read it.

[leapinlew]

Here is where you want to start:
http://www.amazon.com/Project-Arcade-Build-Your-Machine/dp/0764556169
(The author owns this site)

It's cool your posting questions and getting involved, but many of the questions your asking have been debated for years. Spend a little time educating yourself and come back to post a project announcement or ask a question that hasn't been asked a 1,000 times before.

Good luck with your build.

No disrespect, but I do own that book, and always spend plenty of time to find answers elsewhere by researching before turning to a forum such as this one. Personally I think its a little rude to tell me to come back when I have a question that "hasn't been asked a 1,000 time before" . To my understanding this is a community for people who share a common hobby, or even profession, in some cases - and intimidating enough as it is to start such a task - as a first timer it is made far more intimidating to receiving criticism or sly remarks to questions that are posted such as mine. I have seen plenty of "joystick" questions posted in my searching through the forums and other sites, but none that were really in the vain that mine was. Again, after seeing your previous posts and you overall influence and sheer number of posts in the forum, I am in no way trying to disrespect you or anyone else. I may be a noob to MAME cabinets and this forum as a whole, but that doesn't mean I don't understand where you are coming from. I get the fact that some people post questions that could be answered with a simple search rather than posting it again on a board bombarded with re-posts, but as mine was a little different from posts before it (to my knowledge) and was asking opinions more so than questions, I just found it a little rude. Once I accumulate all my knowledge and have all my questions answered, like anyone else would want, I will begin and complete my project and post the results (and possibly the process) here for others to view. I just think that for something like this Arcade/Mame cabinets) with such a tight knit and small community and following that you would be a little more accepting of new (albeit weary) members. I'm not here to make enemies, but rather the exact opposite. I just felt it was necessary to address your post as it was rather bothersome when I read it.

No disrespect taken. In fact, you should feel welcome. Saint goes out of his way to make this a place friendly to beginners. Now, put yourself in our position. How many in depth discussions do you think there has been discussing the "best" joystick? How can it politely be said to read the book and do some searches without the member getting intimidated and leaving? Your trying to recreate a piece of hardware for YOUR nostalgia. Your nostalgia may be fighting games with 8 way bat top joysticks or it might be donkey kong with a nintendo black balltop joystick. The best joystick depends on your personal preference and the games you plan on playing. 

Your new and you only have 8 posts, but in those 8 posts  you ask these questions:
How to take side art off?
Whats the best joystick?
What keyboard encoder should I use?
How many admin buttons do I need?
What necessities are needed for a Mame cab?

These are all questions that have been addressed dozens of times. If you did a search - you would find many many forum discussions to read and begin building your own base of knowledge. If you read the book, you would know this as well. So, excuse my skepticism on your claim to doing plenty of research.

I reiterate, do not be offended by my posts. You'll find putting on some thicker skin when coming here will be to your advantage (i.e. don't get offended so easily).

[leapinlew]

Here is the results of me searching for best joystick at BYOAC

http://wiki.arcadecontrols.com/wiki/Joysticks
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=75865.0
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=75309.0
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=74319.0

And thats just the tip of the iceberg - but should provide you enough to get going.

[helpmebuild]

Here is the results of me searching for best joystick at BYOAC

http://wiki.arcadecontrols.com/wiki/Joysticks
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=75865.0
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=75309.0
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=74319.0

And thats just the tip of the iceberg - but should provide you enough to get going.

Thanks man. Again, I can see your point, and I hope you also see mine. I think the biggest reason that I post some of the things I do rather than rely on past posts is due to the sheer age of some of them (some results are from FOREVER ago) as things could have changed since then, and also just to ensure I get the response I'm after if I haven't found it else where. Thanks for the posts and the feedback.

[Gamester]

The Ultimarc Ultrastik 360 seems to be one of the most flexible sticks out there.  It can be programmed on-the-fly to be a 2-way, 4-way, 8-way, analog, and even diagonal 4-way for games like Q-bert...

[MaximRecoil]

The Ultimarc Ultrastik 360 seems to be one of the most flexible sticks out there.  It can be programmed on-the-fly to be a 2-way, 4-way, 8-way, analog, and even diagonal 4-way for games like Q-bert...

Yes, but no physical restriction, so it is not going to feel anything like a real 2-way or 4-way, which are not only electrically confined to 2 or 4 directions, but are also physically confined to those directions.

[Zobeid]

I don't know what it is but I just cant see myself playing SFII with one of those round balltop joys at all. It seems very foreign and/or 80's to me. I'm sure for a little Frogger or something I could deal but for many diff games I don't know about these.

What blasphemy is this?     

Back in The Golden Age (meaning the early 1980s) those ball-top sticks were used on every kind of game, from Dig Dug to Robotron.  Clearly they are the only right and proper way for a MAME cabinet to go.

Keep in mind though, I can't see myself playing SFII.  At all.  I never could figure out what the younger guys saw in those ugly button-masher games.   

Back to the subject of joysticks. . .  The U360 seems to be the ultimate do-everything stick these days.  However, the guy said he was building a four-player cabinet, and four U360s would be expensive and probably overkill.

[MaximRecoil]

Keep in mind though, I can't see myself playing SFII.  At all.  I never could figure out what the younger guys saw in those ugly button-masher games.   

SFII is decidedly not a "button masher" game. A "button masher" would lose 100% of the time against a skilled player.

[leapinlew]

Back to the subject of joysticks. . .  The U360 seems to be the ultimate do-everything stick these days.  However, the guy said he was building a four-player cabinet, and four U360s would be expensive and probably overkill.

Good points. I guess it comes down to what he wants to play. If he wants to play some vs Karate Champ and then some smash TV - then he'd need 4 U360's or 4 4 ways and 4 8 ways. 

It all comes down to personal preference, the games you play and the importance of authenticity.

[Zobeid]

SFII is decidedly not a "button masher" game. A "button masher" would lose 100% of the time against a skilled player.

In all the classic games, from Pong to Gyruss, there was a direct one-to-one relationship between control inputs and actions on the screen.  You move the stick right, your little guy goes right.  You push the shoot button and he shoots.  That direct linkage between the controls and things happening on the screen was the hook of video games.  It was the key element that made them attractive.

But with fighting games it's more like: you enter an arbitrarily complex sequence of joystick and button pushes that you have memorized (through extended trial and error, served with painful doses of ridicule), and your guy performs an arbitrary combat move from a fixed library of such moves.  How can that be fun?

[leapinlew]

SFII is decidedly not a "button masher" game. A "button masher" would lose 100% of the time against a skilled player.

In all the classic games, from Pong to Gyruss, there was a direct one-to-one relationship between control inputs and actions on the screen.  You move the stick right, your little guy goes right.  You push the shoot button and he shoots.  That direct linkage between the controls and things happening on the screen was the hook of video games.  It was the key element that made them attractive.

But with fighting games it's more like: you enter an arbitrarily complex sequence of joystick and button pushes that you have memorized (through extended trial and error, served with painful doses of ridicule), and your guy performs an arbitrary combat move from a fixed library of such moves.  How can that be fun?

Heres a set of arbitrary commands that added fun

[MaximRecoil]

SFII is decidedly not a "button masher" game. A "button masher" would lose 100% of the time against a skilled player.

In all the classic games, from Pong to Gyruss, there was a direct one-to-one relationship between control inputs and actions on the screen.  You move the stick right, your little guy goes right.  You push the shoot button and he shoots.  That direct linkage between the controls and things happening on the screen was the hook of video games.  It was the key element that made them attractive.

But with fighting games it's more like: you enter an arbitrarily complex sequence of joystick and button pushes that you have memorized (through extended trial and error, served with painful doses of ridicule), and your guy performs an arbitrary combat move from a fixed library of such moves.  How can that be fun?

I could beat you without ever doing a "special move" in any of the CPS-2 CPS-1 Street Fighter II games. You could "mash buttons" until you were blue in the face and you would be lucky to get a single hit in.

BTW, you don't seem to understand the definition of "button masher". It has nothing to do with what you described.

In the later SF games it got ridiculous (which is why I only care for the CPS-2 CPS-1 versions). It got to the point that a single button and joystick combination would unleash a huge automated combination attack. In the original games, you could do "special moves", but you had to design your own "combos", because each special move was a single attack, not a combination.

BTW, fighting games weren't the first games with "special moves". Super Dodge Ball had a "special move" in '87, and there may have been others before that.

[protokatie]

I could beat you without ever doing a "special move" in any of the CPS-2 Street Fighter II games.

Max, do you play as a Heavy or a Light? I could almost always kick butt while using a light, and I never learned any
special moves". Something about being able to react quickly in a fighting game made SF2 something I still enjoy. Button mashers never win in SF2, unless they are playing against other button mashers..

[MaximRecoil]

I could beat you without ever doing a "special move" in any of the CPS-2 Street Fighter II games.

Max, do you play as a Heavy or a Light? I could almost always kick butt while using a light, and I never learned any
special moves". Something about being able to react quickly in a fighting game made SF2 something I still enjoy. Button mashers never win in SF2, unless they are playing against other button mashers..

I use Ryu and only use the heavy ("fierce") punch and heavy ("roundhouse") kick. The only special move I use regularly is the fireball ("Hadoken"), though I can do Ryu's other two special moves as well. I use the medium and light punch buttons to vary the speed or height of a special move, but I never use them directly for anything.

[helpmebuild]

Alright, so since I started this thread with a quest to find my perfect joystick I figured I'd update ya'll with the details. I have placed my order for my CP parts - I am going with 4 Sanwa JLF-TP-8T and Sanwa OBSF-30 pushbuttons. My only concern is that these pushbuttons may not work without me modifying my CP first as they are typically used on metal CP's and "snap in" rather than screw in.

[Kajoq]

Maxim... You'd get torn up by any decent player if you fail to use four of the six buttons.  Things like ryus c.MK-> Hadoken cancel are heavily what his gameplay is based on

Sanwa Joysticks are godly for SF2, and a real player knows how to use all six buttons (and what each of the six attacks does standing, crouching, jumping straight up, and jumping angled)

Boxer rushdown FTW

Helpmebuild - If you have a plexi top on your control panel, You can snap OSBNs in to the plexi.  This is how I have my control panel set up.  its 3/4" MDF, and I drilled the button holes in it slightly larger, and drilled the correct size holes in the plexi so the MDF supports the button and they clip in to the plexi.

[helpmebuild]

Kajoq thats exactly what I think i'll do, thanks for the info. What is the thickness of the plexi you used? I heard 3mm is a good thickness from others, whats are you useing, and how do you find it?

[MaximRecoil]

Maxim... You'd get torn up by any decent player if you fail to use four of the six buttons.

Or so you say. I've yet to meet the person who can beat me consistently on SFII, or even a fair percentage of the time (and I've played a lot of different people since '91, especially during its heyday from '91 to '94 or so at Spaceport in Bangor). I'm sure that tournament-level players could beat me, but it's going to take more than what you describe as a "decent player" before I'll get "torn up", (lol). I expect from your post that you consider yourself to be a "decent player". If you're ever in Maine, stop by—I have a machine right here.

Nothing pleases me more in a game of SFII than to see the opponent using the weaker attacks. That gives me a larger margin for error, because when they do connect, it doesn't do as much damage.

Edit: In the previous post I meant CPS-1 hardware, not CPS-2. The SFII's that I prefer are World Warrior and Champion Edition.

[Kajoq]

Yeah helpmebuild - 3mm plexi is what I used.  To get the joystick height proper, You need to  do some routing for the joystick hole in the MDF, but you just drill regular holes in the plexi.  Try to find a 30mm holesaw if you can - you might have to order it online.  I used a 1 1/8" one which is ~28.5mm and filed out each hole a bit, and it was sort of a pain.

Maxim - Hit me up on AIM sometime and we can play online in MAME.  I don't really play World Warrior or CE, I'm more of an ST player myself (have the board, and its the only one really played in tournies any more)  Theres so much more to street fighter than trying to mash away on RH sweeps and standing fierces....

[helpmebuild]

Yeah helpmebuild - 3mm plexi is what I used.  To get the joystick height proper, You need to  do some routing for the joystick hole in the MDF, but you just drill regular holes in the plexi.  Try to find a 30mm holesaw if you can - you might have to order it online.  I used a 1 1/8" one which is ~28.5mm and filed out each hole a bit, and it was sort of a pain.

Maxim - Hit me up on AIM sometime and we can play online in MAME.  I don't really play World Warrior or CE, I'm more of an ST player myself (have the board, and its the only one really played in tournies any more)  Theres so much more to street fighter than trying to mash away on RH sweeps and standing fierces....

Cool man so from my understanding you just drilled larger holes in the MDF so the bottons can just slide into there but cut the plexi holes at 30mm to have them snap in and fit perfectly?

[MaximRecoil]

Maxim - Hit me up on AIM sometime and we can play online in MAME.  I don't really play World Warrior or CE, I'm more of an ST player myself (have the board, and its the only one really played in tournies any more) 

I'm not interested in playing with lag (i.e., online play) nor with playing with a gamepad (i.e. online play) and I'm not even sure what you mean by "ST" (Super Street Fighter II Turbo?), and I don't care what is fashionable at tournaments these days. I play games I like, and as far as Street Fighter goes, I like SFII:WW and SFII:CE.

Theres so much more to street fighter than trying to mash away on RH sweeps and standing fierces....

I don't "mash away" on any game. Every button press or joystick movement is done for a specific reason. Robert Mruczek described my style of play as "very methodical, almost textbook approach" after viewing my SPO tape, and that is how I play any video game that I'm good at. This is quite the opposite of "mashing away".

Keep in mind that SFII:WW and CE do not have any cheap automated combination attacks that dole out guaranteed damage even if the opponent blocks, so you would have to figure out how to connect on me consistently...manually. You might know something that the countless other people I've played since this game was a new release, don't know, but I'd be surprised.

And what exactly is an "RH"?

[Kajoq]

Yup helpmebuild - Just make the holes in the MDF slightly larger so the snap-ins can fully snap - but the plexi is still almost entirely supported.

Maxim - Theres actually new clients that are extremely good for playing online.  While not arcade perfect - definitely a lot better than trying to practice against the computer AI.  I don't play with a gamepad, I use a joystick that has full sanwa parts to play on my comp
  ST = Super Street Fighter II Turbo like you said.  I like the pace the flair of ST a lot more than the older games.
 RH = Roundhouse, hard Kick.... And you can chip people to death in WW and CE quite easily.

[MaximRecoil]

Maxim - Theres actually new clients that are extremely good for playing online.  While not arcade perfect - definitely a lot better than trying to practice against the computer AI.  I don't play with a gamepad, I use a joystick that has full sanwa parts to play on my comp
  ST = Super Street Fighter II Turbo like you said.  I like the pace the flair of ST a lot more than the older games.
 RH = Roundhouse, hard Kick.... And you can chip people to death in WW and CE quite easily.

What client would that be? I wouldn't mind giving it a try (with SFII:WW or CE) but like I said, if there's lag that screws up my timing I won't bother with it. Also, I only have a gamepad for playing on my PC. It works okay but I can't always pull off fireballs and stuff when I want to like I can on my actual machine (Happ Competitions). If I had an SNES gamepad it would help, because the D-pad on those works quite well for SFII, but I have a PlayStation controller (with USB adaptor) and the D-pad on those isn't that great for SFII IMO.

I've never claimed to be particularly good at the newer versions of SFII. Those came after my arcade days and I've never played them much; and what little I have played of them, I didn't really care for. Also, I don't know what you mean by "chip people to death".

My name on AIM is MaximRecoil if you want to try WW or CE.

[ArtsNFartsNCrafts]

In continuing the debate between ball top vs. bat top joys.


...i was at my local arcade this afternoon, and was surprised to see that Tekken 5: Dark Resurrection was using red ball-top joys!



i was even more surprised to see how low the bat-top joys on Soul Calibur 3 were in the panel!  it was almost just bat, and no shaft!

[brandon]

Maxim... You'd get torn up by any decent player if you fail to use four of the six buttons.  Things like ryus c.MK-> Hadoken cancel are heavily what his gameplay is based on

Sanwa Joysticks are godly for SF2, and a real player knows how to use all six buttons (and what each of the six attacks does standing, crouching, jumping straight up, and jumping angled)

Boxer rushdown FTW

Helpmebuild - If you have a plexi top on your control panel, You can snap OSBNs in to the plexi.  This is how I have my control panel set up.  its 3/4" MDF, and I drilled the button holes in it slightly larger, and drilled the correct size holes in the plexi so the MDF supports the button and they clip in to the plexi.

did you mount your joystick on top of the plexi or is it just showing threw from underneath?!

[Kajoq]

No, Thats just an optical illusion from the all black paint + reflection.



You can see it a little better in this shot from before I got the top painted

[brandon]

ahh ok!  I was gonna say!  that'd would be... umm.. unique   Nice job BTW

[Kaytrim]

OK so I have done much more searching for Sanwa and Seimitsu products and realized that they tend to be more difficult to find online and in stores especially for someone in Canada (me). My main concern though is that both of these manf seem to have a catalogue of "balltop" joys and I cant really say that's what I'm used to or interested in. I seem to be reading that the quality and build of the Japanese stuff is better so I'm curious if anyone knows of any models made by Sanwa or Seimitsu that are similar in their look and feel to the Happ stuff? I don't know what it is but I just cant see myself playing SFII with one of those round balltop joys at all. It seems very foreign and/or 80's to me. I'm sure for a little Frogger or something I could deal but for many diff games I don't know about these.

Head over to LizardLick.com.  There are bat style tops that can be put in place of the ball top of the Sanwa and Seimitsu sticks.  Chad, the owner is a great guy to deal with.

TTFN
Kaytrim

[u_rebelscum]

Head over to LizardLick.com.  There are bat style tops that can be put in place of the ball top of the Sanwa and Seimitsu sticks.  Chad, the owner is a great guy to deal with.

Hah, check out LizardLick's joystick grease :

Dow-Corning  Molycoat 44 Joystick Grease

Same Mil-Spec as the Shin-Etsu G-40M shown in the Sanwa catalog. This is a white, silicone-based grease, great for lubing up your joysticks. 150gm tube.

[Avrus]

Maxim... You'd get torn up by any decent player if you fail to use four of the six buttons.

Or so you say. I've yet to meet the person who can beat me consistently on SFII, or even a fair percentage of the time (and I've played a lot of different people since '91, especially during its heyday from '91 to '94 or so at Spaceport in Bangor). I'm sure that tournament-level players could beat me, but it's going to take more than what you describe as a "decent player" before I'll get "torn up", (lol). I expect from your post that you consider yourself to be a "decent player". If you're ever in Maine, stop by—I have a machine right here.

Nothing pleases me more in a game of SFII than to see the opponent using the weaker attacks. That gives me a larger margin for error, because when they do connect, it doesn't do as much damage.

Edit: In the previous post I meant CPS-1 hardware, not CPS-2. The SFII's that I prefer are World Warrior and Champion Edition.

I'd take you apart like a moon pie. 

[MaximRecoil]

Maxim... You'd get torn up by any decent player if you fail to use four of the six buttons.

Or so you say. I've yet to meet the person who can beat me consistently on SFII, or even a fair percentage of the time (and I've played a lot of different people since '91, especially during its heyday from '91 to '94 or so at Spaceport in Bangor). I'm sure that tournament-level players could beat me, but it's going to take more than what you describe as a "decent player" before I'll get "torn up", (lol). I expect from your post that you consider yourself to be a "decent player". If you're ever in Maine, stop by—I have a machine right here.

Nothing pleases me more in a game of SFII than to see the opponent using the weaker attacks. That gives me a larger margin for error, because when they do connect, it doesn't do as much damage.

Edit: In the previous post I meant CPS-1 hardware, not CPS-2. The SFII's that I prefer are World Warrior and Champion Edition.

I'd take you apart like a moon pie. 

Not likely.