Search for well-designed CPs

[GAtekwriter]

I've been reading through the older posts and doing searches for "control panel layout" and "button layout" and similar... just about overwhelmed right now.

Can anyone cite a good, solid layout of joysticks, buttons, spinner, and admin buttons to reference?  I'm basically trying to figure out just what buttons I want on my CP.

Right now, I've got the following:

1.  Happ 3" trackball
2.  14x NovaGem buttons (willing to purchase a few more)
3.  GGG Spinner
4.  2x Ultrastik

(I'm not adding a third 4-way joystick)

A lot of kids will be playing this and I want to make it easy for them to navigate to different games but I also don't want to clutter up the CP.  Any advice will be appreciated.

Jim

[Hoopz]

Did you scan this thread?

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=59359.0

[GAtekwriter]

Yeah... all 8 pages 

I've taken some good notes but what I was really looking for (and couldn't find it, although I remember reading it a while back) was a discussion on the pros/cons of certain admin buttons as well as the physical layout and dimensions.  It'll teach me to flag certain threads as Favorites when I see them... oh well.

The Search feature is great... but it's really starting to get difficult sifting through all these years of postings

Jim

[javeryh]

Just build a Knievel CP or a slight variation of it.



I also like the idea of some non in-game admin buttons on the strip below the monitor.  No one will accidentally hit those while playing.

[Zobeid]

I've been going through a similar process.  It may be helpful to get your hands on some actual control panels and take some measurements, to figure out what feels comfortable and how much "real estate" you expect to work with.  I've got an old HotRod here which has been useful for comparison.

I've also found some software that allows you to quickly play around with different layouts is a good thing.  I've been using OmniGraffle.  (It's Mac-only, but I'm sure there must be something like it for Windows.)

For example. . .



It's not to scale, so it's no substitute for a full-sized mockup. . .  But I can move things around and try different ideas in seconds, and put different versions side-by-side for comparison.

BTW, those funny looking joysticks with big mounting plates are supposed to represent an Omni-Stik Prodigy.  Despite all the praise I've heard heaped on the US360, I'm still waffling between it and the Prodigy.

[Zobeid]

Just build a Knievel CP or a slight variation of it.

Way too big for my taste.

[javeryh]

Just build a Knievel CP or a slight variation of it.

Way too big for my taste.

Well, I'm not sure how else he'd get 2 joysticks, a 3" trackball, a spinner, 14 buttons plus admin stuff all on one panel and make it comfortable.

[CheffoJeffo]

Just build a Knievel CP or a slight variation of it.

Way too big for my taste.

 

As opposed to some of the aircraft carriers we've seen recently ?

I think Knievel has efficient CP layout down to a science.

How big a panel are you looking for and what do you want on it ?

NOTE: I *PREFER* smaller, more dedicated panels, but Knievel's panels are really tight.

[weisshaupt]

Way too big for my taste.

Have you considered doing a modular panel?  It allows you to really cut down the size if you are really just looking for a 2 player cabinet. It costs a bit more on the controls side, as you might have a dedicated 6 button and 4 button panel etc, but it does allow you to have a small cp and just swap controls out as required. This also means the controls can be placed so that they are closer to what they were on the original game.  There are different sorts of mounting methods - slot and grove, docs pegs, telecom rails,  or my velcro based one.  The idea behind all of them is they allow you to swap out controls pretty quickly.  I think if you are trying to avoid the Frankenpanel, and want a small footprint, its really the best way to go. Otherwise controls just get too close together.  My 6 year old is capable of chanign the panels himself..

 I think javeryh is right that mouting out-of-game admin buttons above the CP is a good idea. But of course I do, because thats what I did on mine...

[GAtekwriter]

I do like Knievel's now that I look at it again... 2 questions:

1.  What are the black buttons inside the P1/P2/Coin area?

2.  What are the black buttons on the monitor area controlling?  I think I see Pause, but the others are fuzzy.

Thanks, all, for the conversation.

Jim

[CheffoJeffo]

Here's a link to the original project thread:

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=58647

[genesim]

I never undestood why people argue about "cluttering up the panel".   Anything over basic functions is cluttering to some extent or another.

That said, Frankenpanels are nice for many other reasons.

12 way rotary, 2 joystick player action, added Computer functions, flight stick dedication, one player joystick in the middle, ability to play tron with ease.   

[DaveMMR]

The problem with cluttering is that you begin to confuse others who may want to play your cab.  But a couple of sticks, a trackball and a spinner is not so confusing considering that they are all different enough people will know what to do with each one (as opposed to different types of joysticks that all look similar to those who don't know to look for their unique abilities). 

I love the layout of Knievil's panel too.  Multiple controls but all well laid out and aesthetically pleasing.  On top of that, great artwork that's not distracting when you're looking down.  I also used a similar layout (sans admin buttons and compacted into 25"X10" of space) and I love it.  It's actually the fairly standard "sticks/ball/spinner/6-button" layout.  You can't go wrong with it. 

One last bit on admin buttons: Don't go nuts trying to recreate the keyboard on your panel.  Stick to Exit and Pause (Starts aren't admin; Coins aren't if there's no working coin door) if you have kids using it.  You don't want Tab, F2, etc. on there and then find all your settings are messed up due to some curious tykes.

[GAtekwriter]

Thanks, DaveMMR - nice advice.  Since kids will mostly be using this, I want to keep it as uncluttered BUT as easy to navigate around as possible.

And thanks CheffoJeffo for the link.

Jim

[Zobeid]

One last bit on admin buttons: Don't go nuts trying to recreate the keyboard on your panel.  Stick to Exit and Pause (Starts aren't admin; Coins aren't if there's no working coin door) if you have kids using it.  You don't want Tab, F2, etc. on there and then find all your settings are messed up due to some curious tykes.

I was thinking PAUSE, SELECT GAME and EXIT GAME for mine.  (Of course there will also be P1, P2 and coin drops, but, as you say, those aren't really admin buttons.)

Most people don't seem to use a dedicated SELECT GAME button, it seems?  I'm sure one of the many other buttons could serve that function, but I'm not sure if it would be obvious to any stranger who walks up to the machine.  I just thought it would be nice to have one clearly labelled for that purpose.

If I did have any more buttons they would probably be hidden.  But I figured most likely I'd just use a wireless (RF) keyboard for configuration and administration.  Something like this. . .

[DaveMMR]

I was thinking PAUSE, SELECT GAME and EXIT GAME for mine.  (Of course there will also be P1, P2 and coin drops, but, as you say, those aren't really admin buttons.)

Most people don't seem to use a dedicated SELECT GAME button, it seems?

Most just use the Start Button or an action button for "Select Game". 

[genesim]

I guess that is the problem.   You sacrfice gameplay for the look. 

A two, should be played with 2 way.    Rotary should always be on the LEFT.   Flight stick or top fire is essential for a great many games.    Spinner with the left stick on player two seems to be way too far away if one is going to play Tron.

No 7th or 8th buttons for Neo Geo or Console.   No buttons at all for the roller ball?

I guess the set up is basic, but there is sure alot missing.    Yeah for the casual gamer most games will work, but for the hardcore, so many are left out.    I guess that is where a frankenpanel comes in.    One I am currently rewiring for the 4th time.      I am getting to old for this..but I am jealous of the clean wiring job.

[DaveMMR]

I guess that is the problem.   You sacrfice gameplay for the look. 

A two, should be played with 2 way.    Rotary should always be on the LEFT.   Flight stick or top fire is essential for a great many games.    Spinner with the left stick on player two seems to be way too far away if one is going to play Tron.

No 7th or 8th buttons for Neo Geo or Console.   No buttons at all for the roller ball?

I guess the set up is basic, but there is sure alot missing.    Yeah for the casual gamer most games will work, but for the hardcore, so many are left out.    I guess that is where a frankenpanel comes in.    One I am currently rewiring for the 4th time.      I am getting to old for this..but I am jealous of the clean wiring job.
I guess that is the problem.   You sacrfice gameplay for the look. 

With joysticks (especially those with on-the-fly mapping capabilities - i.e. U360, 49-ways with GGG encoder), a single trackball and spinner, you cover a overwhelming majority of the games playable in MAME.  If you need a whole lot of different control options, you're better off going modular, design your panels to be swapped out easily or build dedicated cabs. 

It's not really only about looks.  Too many controls on one panel, and it becomes nearly unplayable.  "Use the third joystick on the left to move and the middle row of nine buttons to fire, jump and use magic respectively.  Just reach around the Star Wars Yoke".   Yeah, that'll be fun... having to recite something similar for every single game, even the simple ones like Pac-Man and Donkey Kong. 

No 7th or 8th buttons for Neo Geo or Console.   No buttons at all for the roller ball?

And you only need 4 buttons for Neo-Geo. The 7th button is added to a standard set of six to line them up like the original layout, but you technically do not need it.   

EDIT: Fixed quote layout.

[genesim]

I don't see how it isn't fun.   Yeah a starwars yoke is overbearing, but then again, it is only a glorified flight stick anyway, so a regular flight stick will do(not to diss the people that love the original feel....GO FOR IT!).

The fact is, if one can walk up and use the controls, I don't see how that is any more confusing then someone having to reprogram the controls??

Incidently, I don't know how evel's panel does the neogeo very well, because even with the 4 button layout, it is way off shifted.    Yeah, call me crazy, but having the 4th button in the 7th position is very nice indeed.    Though I sacrifice it being centered, it still is alot better then every button being off.   

But that aside, having a 7th button has other uses like having an extra programmable button and of course cosole new cosole games like psx, ps2, xbox, xbox360..etc   That is a whole nother world of games.

To me,  no, it isn't convenient swapping out hardware.     Its like the total gym, yeah it sounds nice, but by the time you move that heavy bastard you already have a workout.   I would rather have a weight bench you walk right up to and play.    While the spinning kind looks nice, that too seems to busy.

People get so hung up on "looks" and forget that playing the most games is the important, if you want to keep playing games.     Favorites can get stale from time to time, and it is nice if you want to explore, that you have the controls right there.

I think the only short coming I have on my control is 2 player roller ball.   Perhaps with Andy's new thing, this will be possible.   But I may finally have to redesign.   I sure would like to play atari football and basketball, because back in the day on the consoles, they were strangely alot of fun!

[CheffoJeffo]

It is a tradeoff -- which controls do you add?

How many trackballs ? How many spinners ? What type of joysticks ? Restrictor plates ? Wheels ? Pedals ? How many buttons and where ? Admin buttons vs keyboard ? Which emulators ? Do I really need the NeoGeo button layout ?

For some the object will be playing as many games as possible (nothing wrong with that, I belonged to that club once). For others it will be trying to recreate a specific experience (nothing wrong with that, I'm in that club now). For some, it will be a matter of space. For others, space is not an issue.

The new sticks that can be programmed on the fly (by the FE, so the user doesn't need to do anything) have made things quite a bit cleaner.

It does come down to what you want to do with your cabinet. Playing the most games isn't always the right answer, hence the fact that frankenpanels aren't universally endorsed as the way to go. It may be for some, but it won't be for many. Having said that, there have been some very well-designed frankenpanels.

I personally like Knievel's CP layouts as they are always tight, clean and functional (they won't play everything, but they will plays lots of stuff really well). He's got, what, 3 MAMEys so far and has built more cabs than I ever will, so there is some comfort in copying his layouts.

I sure would like to play atari football and basketball, because back in the day on the consoles, they were strangely alot of fun!

Agreed ... although they were better in the arcades with those hundred-pound trackballs and the resulting blisters ... 

[javeryh]

If there's one thing I've learned after building these things it's make it as simple as possible.  My first cabinet has t-stiks which switch from 4-way to 8-way mode with a simple twist from the top of the panel.  I can't count the times I've tried explaining this to people and at the end of the day everything is played in 8-way mode because they just don't care.  How do you start?  What is this button for? Which joystick am I using for this?  Etc.  If you are building it for yourself then make it as complicated as you want but if you are going to have people over to play simplicity is the way to go. 

My latest cabinet has one joystick (a U360 which switches on the fly), three "action" buttons and clearly labeled Start, Pause and Exit buttons - plus an instruction card and I STILL get questions from certain people who have obviously never been to an arcade.  Keep it simple!!

[genesim]

And you don't think that people are going to ask about the Ultra360 that has to be programmed on the fly??

I explain once, and there isn't a whole lot more to get.    Never understood that.   If it takes much more then that to explain, then they shouldn't be playing to begin with.

Also, I don't care how you cut it, an 8 way seriously screws up a 4 way game.     Donkey Kong at times can be completely unplayable.

XXXXXXXXx

Cheffo,

Great post.   I will post my pics when it is done, and I swear you can critique away.   I am curious as to what alot of people will think of my frankelpanel design.

[javeryh]

And you don't think that people are going to ask about the Ultra360 that has to be programmed on the fly??

I'm not sure what you mean.  When you select a game, the correct map is loaded automatically.  You can go from Galaga to Street Fighter to Q*bert to Pac-man and there's nothing for the user to do except select the game they want to play.  It is impossible for it to be any more seamless.

I explain once, and there isn't a whole lot more to get.    Never understood that.   If it takes much more then that to explain, then they shouldn't be playing to begin with.

Well, I have young kids who have friends who have never been to an arcade and who have no frame of reference for how these things work - they still get stuck on the concept of having to put a quarter in or press the coin button.  I guess the best tip would be to build with your audience in mind...

[Knievel]

Wow, nice to tune in here and find people still giving props to my design.
I spent a lot of time tweaking the placement of everything when I came up with it 3+ years ago and am still using it to this day.

Jim here's a diagram that shows all my controls. Those extra buttons are dedicated mouse buttons...



I run Mamewah on all my machines and the 4 buttons I hace on my admin panel are:

                                LISTS  EXIT                  EMU  PAUSE

[GAtekwriter]

Muchas Gracias, Knievel...

I want to place a few admin buttons on the side of my cabinet (out of view) and I completely forgot that an EMU button would be useful to switch between arcade and Atari 2600 games (which I want to load for my son to play when he gets older).  What are the LIST and EXIT buttons for, BTW?  I haven't even started my investigation of front-ends yet, so apologize for asking a dumb question.

Jim

[brock.sampson]

I have a Knievel inspired control panel minus the dedicated 4 way and a few more admin buttons than most people care for but it makes it easy for the kids.  The one thing I have had a problem with is the spinner location.  If you get into a hard game of World Class Bowling or Golden Tee you will eventually hit the spinner.  I was playing bowling this morning a cracked my finger a couple of times.  On my next cp it will be farther to the left or right.  Just something to think about.

[Grauwulf]

I just thought I'd throw my two cents in here. I believe in keeping my control panels as simple as possible. I am working on two cabs right now being made out of Midway Smash TV cabs which have a nice small panel, just big enough for a 2-player 6-button layout with a centre mounted 3" trackball. No spinner and no admin buttons. We had people over for New Years and the only things I had to show them was how to start a game, exit a game and add credits. Granted these were not kids, but they *were* non-arcade people. So the stripped-down K.I.S.S. method works for me.

[genesim]

Javeryh,

What frontend are you using?   That would explain alot to me.   I admit that this is a new product for me, and I have been programming for each kind by simply loading.

I am sure a good front end rectifies this though.

Well, I have young kids who have friends who have never been to an arcade and who have no frame of reference for how these things work

Hey and that is cool.    Some of us on the other hand don't have the machine for strange kids...or even kids at all.    Some of us have never grown up.     As it stands, I didn't build my ton of crap for anyone but me, and my friends and select family.    So in essence, getting the classic games to work, the ones that we remember(especially ALL of them me and my friends being HUGE fans) is the most important.    Different strokes for different folks.    I just hate the connotation that it is somehow inferior logic or inferior designed panel.   

[DeLuSioNal29]

I guess if we are talking about simplicity, the front end that you choose comes into play as well.  I use Maximus Arcade because it is very simple and great for kids.  I built a 4 player panel because my nephews and friends are always playing 4 player games together.  There are a lot of buttons but they LOVE it.  NBA Jam TE is one of their favorites.

Again, Maximus arcade lets you choose emu's easily without the need for a emu button.  I also made the credit buttons on my control panel light up with the corresponding color of the player.  The kids loved that feature since it's a no brainer on who hits what button for their credits.  Looks complex, but it's actually kid friendly.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1hOz1CaZO0[/youtube]

~ DeLuSioNaL

[Knievel]

Jim the LISTS buttons is for switching between the various game lists you might have within each emulator.
For instance within the Mame emulator I have 4-Way Games, 8-Way Games, Trackball Games, Spinner Games and Favorites.

EXIT is pushed once to exit a game and return to the front-end.
Pushed a second time it will exit to your desktop.

[DeLuSioNal29]

Jim the LISTS buttons is for switching between the various game lists you might have within each emulator.
For instance within the Mame emulator I have 4-Way Games, 8-Way Games, Trackball Games, Spinner Games and Favorites.

EXIT is pushed once to exit a game and return to the front-end.
Pushed a second time it will exit to your desktop.

Yes, a LISTS button is very useful.  I have a similar one labeled Favorites on my cab since that's how my FE refers to them and I wanted it to be consistent.  I have mine set to Fighting games, 4 player games, Best of the Best (my personal picks), Driving games and Shoot-em-ups.

[GAtekwriter]

Thanks for the great discussion, everyone.  This has really helped.

I'll make sure to document my work on creating my CP with photos and notes for newcomers... once again, this site has convinced me that I am capable of doing things that I never imagined I had to skills for...

Jim

[milhouse]

Since everyone is opining on Control Panels in this thread, just wondering if anyone had thoughts about the one I am about to build.  Its slightly unorthodox but I was hoping if anyone sees a problem that I may have missed.

(Edit - admin buttons are on the face of the cab, just below the bezel, which is why they aren't shown)

Thanks