Restoring vs. Maming a cabinet - The complete rule book

[Sir Auros]

Re:No, and I think the first few people that commented handled it well. However, the thread quickly devolved into a virtual lynchmob, and the fault lies partly in people ganging up on him and partly in the hands of some people who are just holier-than-thou on this subject.

EDIT - I think the mob mentality is one of the things about this forum that makes it so hostile to people who haven't been regulars for years and years. Now that I've voiced an opposing opinion, it'll be open season on me.

EDIT 2 - I'm not up for continuing the argument if others want to debate it with me. I just wish you guys could see how damn nasty this place can be sometimes. Namely, if you don't agree with the majority.

[MadGamer]

Here is someone doing their part take note.

[Sir Auros]

In a way, that's kind of awesome. Imagine what a hit that'd be in a dorm if instead of plain, cardboard boxes, it were made out of Beast (or any other cheap beer) boxes.

[CheffoJeffo]

Welcome to teh innernets! 

As I said previously, my personal stance has softened markedly. I have seen cabs burned, smashed, thrown off of buildings, dragged behind cars and sent to the dump. And that wasn't by MAMErs, but by actual collectors. Reactions range from supportive to total disgust.

Having said that, if you do something that people are going to find objectionable and then post about it in a place where those people congregate (this isn't just a site for MAMErs), then you can expect people to object loudly (even csa3d said that he was expecting more flames).

The outrage will continue, just like the butchering of classics will continue. NOTE: I am not making any judgement as to csa3d's specific project in this statement.

[Hoopz]

What is the problem with trying to convince a newbie not to butcher a complete, working and rare cabinet (as that was) ?

Did you notice how many people voiced the same opinion ?

Do you think they are all meanies ?

I think there is a line between trying to share that opinion v. attacking someone personally.  Some people cross the line and make it personal and IMHO that's wrong.  A message that's thoughtful, accurate, and persuasive has much better chance of being received positively than personal attacks.

Not saying you did that, but it's pretty clear some others do.

[SithMaster]

 

Seriously im going to die laughing and i dont care.

[CheffoJeffo]

EDIT - I think the mob mentality is one of the things about this forum that makes it so hostile to people who haven't been regulars for years and years. Now that I've voiced an opposing opinion, it'll be open season on me.

EDIT 2 - I'm not up for continuing the argument if others want to debate it with me. I just wish you guys could see how damn nasty this place can be sometimes. Namely, if you don't agree with the majority.

The mob mentality happens in every online forum and isn't limited to the old timers by any stretch. I also think there is a flip side to the "regulars vs newbie" argument that you make -- how many old timers, whom have been very helpful over the years, spend vastly less time here because of the attitude they get ? That road goes both ways.

And it can get nasty at times -- I know that I have been guilty of going too far on occasion (haven't we all ?), but that path isn't walked by oldtimers alone either.

EDIT: Never mind ... this shouldn't be a newbie vs oldtimers argument ... there is room for everybody here.

[MadGamer]

I always thought the same way why not make it out of something less expected. What kind of imagination is that. Hey I'm going to make a video game out of a video game.

But really you should try and preserve these games. That what makes this site so important. So there is a place to come and get all the information you need to enjoy gaming without harming a potentially rare arcade classic. Someone had mention how the preservationist don't like this group and its tough to defend it all the time. Can you even imagine what the scene would be like without saints contribution. Those other groups should be smart enough to know an Alli from an enemy. Ponder that

                                                     

[brandon]

What is the problem with trying to convince a newbie not to butcher a complete, working and rare cabinet (as that was) ?

Did you notice how many people voiced the same opinion ?

Do you think they are all meanies ?

Trying to talk somebody out of it is one thing.. but to continuely bust his balls after the fact... what's the point?  Trying to make an example of him?

[Sir Auros]

CheffoJeffo - I read your post before you edited, and I get your points, but I don't think it has to be that way. I don't know that I'm saying it is here, either.

[CheffoJeffo]

Trying to talk somebody out of it is one thing.. but to continuely bust his balls after the fact... what's the point?  Trying to make an example of him?

My point there was that I didn't think that was a bad thread or that it devolved into a lynch all that much. People kept trying to make their points, sure, but there were a lot of people with the same opinion and I didn't think it was nearly as bad as it was made out to be.

[brandon]

In case anyone wants to see an example of what I'm talking about...

BYOAC regulars scare off newb. Congratulations, you guys saved a cabinet...in Estonia.

they didnt save anything.. he just quit posting..  There's probably a pink fluffy monstrosity in his room as we speak..  The Smash TV and the Dig Dug  examples are light years beyond what's been done to that Galaxian.  He's actually keeping the original artwork theme intact and integrating his monitor and controls into the available space.. Its by no means the hack job of the former two examples..

[FrizzleFried]

In case anyone wants to see an example of what I'm talking about...

BYOAC regulars scare off newb. Congratulations, you guys saved a cabinet...in Estonia.

they didnt save anything.. he just quit posting..  There's probably a pink fluffy monstrosity in his room as we speak..  The Smash TV and the Dig Dug  examples are light years beyond what's been done to that Galaxian.  He's actually keeping the original artwork theme intact and integrating his monitor and controls into the available space.. Its by no means the hack job of the former two examples..

Please explain how that is different?  Seriously...just playing devils advocate.  If it's uncool to destroy an arcade machine badly (IE: The Dig Dug &  Smash TV examples),  then what makes it OK to destroy an arcade machine well (IE: Galaxian)?

Isn't the end result the same...a dedicated classic arcade that will never be again?

Does anyone here REALLY think this Galaxian will ever house another set of Galaxian boards....ever?

[brandon]

Isn't the end result the same...a dedicated classic arcade that will never be again?

Does anyone here REALLY think this Galaxian will ever house another set of Galaxian boards....ever?

how do you know it wont?  Maybe the guys grandkids will restore it original some day... maybe he'll build a scratch built cab in a few years and ebay that one.. Somebody else can put a wire harness, monitor, etc back in it then.  What if he had bought a Galaxian to Jamma adaptor and then installed a J-Pac and Mamed it that way... would the cabinet have been anymore likely to ever have original PCBs installed at a later date?  sure, it would've been easier but its not impossible now.  If I had the parts I could undo what he has done in a week or less.  Maybe the fact that I've undone so many BAD conversion is why this doesnt bother me that much.  There really isnt that much to the internals of these machines... 

[MaximRecoil]

If I had the parts I could undo what he has done in a week or less. 

He mangled the speaker panel pretty good, not to mention what he did to the monitor mounts and such.

Regardless of that, your claim doesn't mean much. There are plenty of people that could build a Galaxian from the ground-up in a week or less if they had all the parts.

[brandon]

If I had the parts I could undo what he has done in a week or less. 

He mangled the speaker panel pretty good, not to mention what he did to the monitor mounts and such.

Regardless of that, your claim doesn't mean much. There are plenty of people that could build a Galaxian from the ground-up in a week or less if they had all the parts.

then you made my point for me.. If what he did is easily UNDONE then its not a big deal that it was ever DONE in the first place.

[MaximRecoil]

then you made my point for me.. If what he did is easily UNDONE then its not a big deal that it was ever DONE in the first place.

I didn't say anything about "easy"—you did. Because something can be done in a week or less; that doesn't necessarily make it "easy".

Most any damage to most anything can be "undone" in a sense; including total destruction. That doesn't mean that damaging stuff is to be commended.

[brandon]

then you made my point for me.. If what he did is easily UNDONE then its not a big deal that it was ever DONE in the first place.

I didn't say anything about "easy"—you did. Because something can be done in a week or less; that doesn't necessarily make it "easy".

Most any damage to most anything can be "undone" in a sense; including total destruction. That doesn't mean that damaging stuff is to be commended.

The fact that it CAN be undone with minimal time and effort means this.. You can't compare it to killing off some endangered species.  According to KLOV:

Of the 40,646 video games (3,114 unique) tracked by the Video Game Preservation Society, this game ranks a 81 on a scale out of 100 (100 = most commonly seen, 1=least common) in popularity based on ownership records

Mortal Kombat only scored a 63.. so its actually less common.. Also, "5 VAPS members currently looking for this game." yet, 7 VAPS members are looking for MK... So, it would seem that Mortal Kombat is more rare and in fact, in more demand that Galaxian.   Do you honestly think everybody would be freaking out if he Mamed an MK machine?  According to the stats they should..   Oh I "GET IT" just fine.  I just think you folks are overreacting..  especially since the "damage" is done and you're accomplishing nothing by chastising CSA3D

[DaveMMR]

Brandon, the stats on KLOV pertain to members who own the game in some form (PCB, dedicated, coversion).  It's not a scientific indication of anything being "rare" or "common".  You forgot to read this part afterwards:

Rarity is NOT necessarily an indication of value. Some common games show up as very rare here because collectors don't want them (they are common because arcade operatos might be sitting on tons of them in warehouses), while some fairly scarce games are grabbed by collectors every time they show up.

Back to the debate at hand:  I can understand everyone's stance.  But the fact is some people seem to have this general disrespect for others' passions.  Many people are here because they have a love for the technology and design of classic cabs and are trying to recreate that feeling.  Some, however, just want to stick a computer in whatever cabinet comes their way and just get at playing some games - no matter if it's rare and desirable or not. 

And you know what, again... it's his or her cab.  But you can't go destroying a classic cab and then act all confused when the arcade collectors who frequent this board get insulted and/or angry at what's been done.  Some people may not understand why this is.  But it's almost as if you go on some record collecting message board and showing off pictures of how you're using the "butcher cover" of The Beatles' "Yesteday and Today" to chop vegtables.  Yes, some people have a great deal of respect for the original cabinets.  It's just the slightest bit disrespectful to laugh it off and say "what's the big deal" and have no idea what the heart of this hobby is all about. 

Again, if you want a big box with games inside, empty, gutted cabinets are easy enough to obtain to those who look.  And building one is not that hard.

[Sir Auros]

The problem with your argument, of course, is that this isn't strictly an arcade collector's board, and judging from the name, the book, and probably the majority of the threads, this board seems aimed much more towards MAME cabinets.

[DaveMMR]

The problem with your argument, of course, is that this isn't strictly an arcade collector's board, and judging from the name, the book, and probably the majority of the threads, this board seems aimed much more towards MAME cabinets.

Reread my post.  I never said this was strictly a "collector's board".  I simply implied that many people who frequent these boards are also collectors of coin-ops.

And building MAME cabinets is not synonymous with altering a classic cab to play MAME, btw.  If that's what your beliefs are then remind me to keep you away from Chuck E. Cheese.   

[yalborap]

The problem with your argument, of course, is that this isn't strictly an arcade collector's board, and judging from the name, the book, and probably the majority of the threads, this board seems aimed much more towards MAME cabinets.

Reread my post.  I never said this was strictly a "collector's board".  I simply implied that many people who frequent these boards are also collectors of coin-ops.

And building MAME cabinets is not synonymous with altering a classic cab to play MAME, btw.  If that's what your beliefs are then remind me to keep you away from Chuck E. Cheese.   

...Dammit, now I want to sneak into a Chuck E. Cheese in the middle of the night and use J-Pacs and Mini-ITX boards to convert all the machines to mame.

[Sir Auros]

Re:DaveMMR

I read it correctly the first time. Maybe if people feel that strongly, they should stick more to the collector's boards or just stay out of project announcements if they can't behave themselves.

I just got around to reading csa3d's project thread all the way through (I'd only read the last page up to now), and the critical responses from CheffoJeffo, Level42, and leapinlew were more than reasonable. However, Fozzy the Bear (sorry bro, I'm with you on SlikStik, but not this) and FrizzleFried turned things nasty when the thread was revived recently.

I'll admit that I probably misspoke when saying that there are a lot of ---uvula--- collectors here. I assumed that more people than just those two were giving him a hard time based on this thread and the final page of his.

I think it was brandon who said that it's just a vocal minority that ---smurfette--- and moan. I suppose he's right.

Finally, I never implied that MAME cabinets were built from scratch or entirely conversions. However, I'd put money on most MAME cabs being conversions. There's no way to prove or disprove that, but it seems logical to me.

[Avrus]

In case anyone wants to see an example of what I'm talking about...

BYOAC regulars scare off newb. Congratulations, you guys saved a cabinet...in Estonia.

I'm not a collector by any stretch ... but that guy is a complete ---meecrob--- for doing that to a Smash TV cabinet.

That would be likened to taking a '69 corvette stingray in good condition and modding it into some off road monstrosity.

Like, it was still playable, and the control panel was in great shape. 

[Avrus]

In case anyone wants to see an example of what I'm talking about...

BYOAC regulars scare off newb. Congratulations, you guys saved a cabinet...in Estonia.

I'm not a collector by any stretch ... but that guy is a complete ---meecrob--- for doing that to a Smash TV cabinet.

That would be likened to taking a '69 corvette stingray in good condition and modding it into some off road monstrosity.

Like, it was still playable, and the control panel was in great shape. 

  Then go to ---smurfing--- Estonia and get it from him.

He's modding the Stingray on Neptune, do you still want to save it?

Maybe you and I just differ?  Like I said, I'm not a collector but I can appreciate how rare and how beautiful a working, good condition Smash TV cabinet is. 

Yes, if he was modding the Stingary on Neptune, I would pay shipping (through UPS no less) to have it shipped to Canada to save it.  Also, imagine the response one would get in a Stingray enthusiasts forum.

If I had a spare thousand or so I would buy the Smash TV cabinet off him as well because it's a travesty.

Just because someone can do something, doesn't mean they should.

You do realize this is a hobby filled with arcade enthusiasts right?

[DaveMMR]

I read it correctly the first time. Maybe if people feel that strongly, they should stick more to the collector's boards or just stay out of project announcements if they can't behave themselves.
(rest of post edited but alluded to)

So basically you're saying "anyone who has an opinion that differs from mine should stay off those threads"?  Is that fair?  Has anyone told you to "find a different thread" when you expressed a difference of opinion?  Yeah, some people express their opinions harshly.  But as someone pointed out, it's the nature of the internet.  If anyone can't deal with critism, then don't post your creations/modifications/projects to a public space and ask for opinions.

And yes, there's a vocal minority.  But I suspect there's a larger group who just look at projects like that "modified" Dig Dug, and shake their head in disbelief without saying anything.  And yeah, I'm one of the silent detractors of butchering cabs irreversibly (not referring to the topic starter's cab, btw - it's pretty much reversible).  

EDIT: I see as I was typing this you were getting verbally angry at someone else for caring about a pristine Smash TV.  If it bothers you so much, perhaps you need to take a breath and relax for five or ten minutes.

EDIT 2:

Finally, I never implied that MAME cabinets were built from scratch or entirely conversions. However, I'd put money on most MAME cabs being conversions. There's no way to prove or disprove that, but it seems logical to me.

You added the above as I was typing my original response.  There is a way to prove it.  There's an example link on this site that let's you filter our "scratch-built" and "conversions".  I don't know which is more plentiful and I don't care because that's immaterial.  Again, I was referring to "butchered classic cabs", not "conversion of a gutted and/or generic" cab.  Although now that I think about it, we should be able to filter out cabs that were originally a Tron or Centipede but transformed into a MAME machine with a 6-foot wide panel.

[CheffoJeffo]

Yes, if he was modding the Stingary on Neptune, I would pay shipping (through UPS no less) to have it shipped to Canada to save it.

 

 

EDIT: Before anybody gets offended, it is the shipping through UPS to Canada that is funny ...

[fixedpigs]

aye...

just get zakk to pay the brokerage fees...

[CheffoJeffo]

As a reminder that it isn't just MAMErs who sometimes do bad things to good cabs ...

http://www.brentradio.com/Hellcade.htm

 

[Avrus]

For the record regarding the Smash TV cabinet.  I told my friend (who's not a MAME'r but is the same age as I am) what the guy was doing with the Smash TV Cabinet.

His response.

'Why would he do that?'  'Why would he want to do that?'

I think that sums it up.

[pcb]

Let me put my 2 cent in here.  All you that want to preserve “history” here is one for you to think about.  In my town a guy had an old house and the windows were real lead stained glass.  They were making his daughter sick.  He replaced them with new windows.  Well the town historical society sued him to make him put the original windows back in AND WON.  He owned the house out right and it was not on any historical registry or anything like that.  I am sick to death of people that care more about preserving history, animals, or any other thing at the expense of someone else’s health or finances but not there own.

You have a link or something for that story? Is it recent or old? That is absolutely crazy, and I would think it could make national attention.

The guy should stop letting his daughter lick the window.

[Avrus]

...and you say nothing to Avrus for also getting "verbally angry," or any of the other people in that thread? Like I said, the problem is that a certain viewpoint is accepted here to the point where it's apparently kosher to be abusive to people, regardless of saint's efforts to keep things nice around here.

Naw man: sad, disappointed, bewildered. 

[yalborap]

For the record, I am not against preservation of cabs. Rather, I am against YOU and the others on the same side as you in particular. Though yes, I will admit, I don't care about them as much as I could. I'm only 16; arcades were in their swan song by the time I was born, and by the time I was old enough to get properly into games, they were dead in the US. So I never had a chance for them to become a major part of my life; They're there as a second-degree part, simply because the SNES was a big part(we didn't get an N64 until they were down to $99, so my early early childhood was pure SNES), and hence other games from around that era(both timeline-wise and graphically) resonate with me.

So...Yeah. I've said what I'm going to say. React how you all wish, but I'm done with the fighting. I came here to have fun and discuss old arcades games and the tech involved in MAME cabs, not argue over this as if it could save the world's economy if we were to preserve enough cabs or burn them all as a hip new fuel source or something. We can have a civil discussion over this, but I'm not touching any further arguments.

FOOTNOTE: Reading over this, I really bounced from point to point too much....Oh well. Might as well just live with it instead of trying to rewrite it from the ground up.

[Avrus]

For the record, I am not against preservation of cabs. Rather, I am against YOU and the others on the same side as you in particular. Though yes, I will admit, I don't care about them as much as I could. I'm only 16; arcades were in their swan song by the time I was born, and by the time I was old enough to get properly into games, they were dead in the US.

Right ... so that's why you wouldn't understand the passion of many of the people here.  I'm 33, I spent every waking moment I could in an arcade.

I took an hour and 15 minutes of buses to get into the 7-11 in downtown Calgary because they were the only place to have Street Fighter 2 Championship Edition.  The lineup was 75+ people from 6 in the morning until 2 or 3 the next morning.

It's a part of my culture and my youth as much as the Atari 2600, cartridges, the Commodre 64 etc.

I mean no disrespect by my post, but I don't think it's something I could explain.  If it wasn't a part of your culture I wouldn't expect you to understand the feelings these cabinets emote.

Judging by the other posters response I expect he's fairly young too because he just doesnt 'get it'. 

[RayB]

At the end of the day... it's all about emotional attachment to inanimate (though interactive!) objects.

[yalborap]

For the record, I am not against preservation of cabs. Rather, I am against YOU and the others on the same side as you in particular. Though yes, I will admit, I don't care about them as much as I could. I'm only 16; arcades were in their swan song by the time I was born, and by the time I was old enough to get properly into games, they were dead in the US.

Right ... so that's why you wouldn't understand the passion of many of the people here.  I'm 33, I spent every waking moment I could in an arcade.

I took an hour and 15 minutes of buses to get into the 7-11 in downtown Calgary because they were the only place to have Street Fighter 2 Championship Edition.  The lineup was 75+ people from 6 in the morning until 2 or 3 the next morning.

It's a part of my culture and my youth as much as the Atari 2600, cartridges, the Commodre 64 etc.

I mean no disrespect by my post, but I don't think it's something I could explain.  If it wasn't a part of your culture I wouldn't expect you to understand the feelings these cabinets emote.

Judging by the other posters response I expect he's fairly young too because he just doesnt 'get it'. 

Well, speaking as a guy who has been a gamer longer than he can remember, I can certainly 'get' severe passion for games. I just think it's a little silly to get overly worked up, whether it's over maimed cabs  or what company is better or the rerising costs of console titles or...ANY of it. They're games, right? For better or worse, no matter how much passion we have for them, they are created first and foremost to be fun. Shouldn't we honor that and just enjoy them?

NOTE: I am making an exception for getting overly worked up at the sheer unfairness of a game. That is acceptable and at times mandatory. Devil May Cry 3 Dante Must Die mode, I am looking at you. Ninja Gaiden NES version, I am looking at you and your Xbox reboot too. Contra without the konami code, I am looking at you. Megaman, I am looking at you with rage never before conjured by man.

[NIVO]

please maintain subject matter to on topic discussion only.

[brandon]

As a reminder that it isn't just MAMErs who sometimes do bad things to good cabs ...

http://www.brentradio.com/Hellcade.htm

 

I dont get it.. what's wrong with these cabs?


J/K!!   

[brandon]

Judging by the other posters response I expect he's fairly young too because he just doesnt 'get it'. 

I'm 29 so I most definitely get it.. what I dont get is folks like Fozzy and Frizzle utterly chewing this guys ass after the fact...  More than one person said their peace over a year ago about how he should restore his Galaxian and not Mame it.  Well.. he heard your advice but choose to do something else.  You dont have to like it but what's done is done.  Has nobody heard of beating a dead horse?  Nobody is asking you to be OK with it... nobody is asking for your praise..  You've stated your opinion and its been noted.  No point in personal attacks or spamming his project thread with off topic stuff.   and like I've stated before.. I personally wouldn't have Mamed that cabinet.  I would've got it working as-is, sold it and used the money to buy parts for an 27" 4-player uber cabinet   BUT that's not what he did.  Just because I personally wouldnt have Mamed it that doesnt mean that I'm going to question CSA3D's ethics or morals because he did. 

That pretty much summarizes my opinion on the matter

[RandyT]

I'm having a bit of a hard time getting too sentimental over this particular specimen myself.  I definitely like to see a cabinet left in one piece and restored if possible, but when so much is defective or unoriginal that you are replacing or repairing virtually every single item, it's a lost cause.  So much of the end result will be aftermarket, it might as well be a scratch-built copy.

I have a Galaxian sitting behind me that some joker decided should have the entire kickpanel painted black, probably due to similar damage.  I'll probably just print a nice new front for it so it looks presentable again, but I won't pretend that it is going to be as good as if the panel was original, clean and just required some "touching up".  The sides are dirty and need a touch-up, but nowhere close to the condition of this poor beast in question.

I say be happy it didn't get torched so some doofus could put a video of it on You-Tube.

RandyT