Using a TV

[chrimeg]

Just wondering if someone could help me here.

I'm building my mame cabinet and looking to use a 27" T.V.

What connections on the TV should I look for and what about the Video Card? Currently my video card only has an SVGA connection going to a computer monitor.

Can anyone give me some info/help here?

Thanks

[TOK]

Welcome! 

I think you should get a TV w/Component. I'm using a 27" Toshiba with a Radeon 9550 and Component adapter. Lots of people have traveled this path, check out the Monitor/Video section for tons of info.

[Fozzy The Bear]

Depends where you are located.

In the UK or Europe, you have access to a SCART connection on TV sets. Which gives you an RGB input. Effectively bypassing the TV circuits and turning it into a 15Khz Arcade monitor.

In the USA and most of the rest of the world TV's don't have SCART connectors. So you have the option of S-Video or Component. Out of those two component will give the best results.

As far as video cards, you should take a look at the ArcadeVGA card from Ultimarc. www.ultimarc.com (also works perfectly with TV's equipped with SCART sockets).

You could also, take a look at pretty much any ATI card that has S-Video out if you intend to use S-video. But the ArcadeVGA card will generate native resolutions that the original games played in, without the computer having to do quite so much work.

If, you're going the component video route, then look for a TV that can handle as high a resolution as possible and a video card that can output component video.

It also wouldn't hurt you any to read the WIKI http://wiki.arcadecontrols.com/ before asking questions on here. Many of the answers you seek can be found there.

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)

[Daniel B.]

Component is by far the best solution for us in the US for TV's, however, it doesn't always work. I have a radeon 9500 pro, with svideo out. I got one of the svid/component dongles and it only transmits in b/w. I don't know if it's the card, or the tv. I swapped out for Svideo, and it looks fine to me. In the future, I will try to use component again, but for the time being s-video appears to suit.

[BORIStheBLADE]

For component you mean this right?

[Daniel B.]

Yes, composite is the yellow wire.

[unclet]

Your current video card only allows an interface to a PC monitor.  You will need to get a video card which has a "TV out" port.   Some video cards (like mine) have a SVideo out port (others have component out ports, etc..).  My 27" JVC TV has an SVideo in port so I just connect a SVideo cable from the video card to the TV ..... thats it.  I got a cheap ATI 32Meg video card from Ebay and it works great running the Mame games (in my opinion).

So check what ports you "TV" has on the back and then buy the appropriate video card which has the same type of ports for output.

Hope this helps.

[chrimeg]

Well I think I may have tracked down a used T.V for $40.00. It suppose to have composit and S-Video etc.

Just checking on the size to fit my cabinet. Is it ok to remove the t.v from its housing and just place the electronics and tube in the cab?

[unclet]

I am no electronics person but I would imagine it has a case on there to protect people from accidentally touching something bad.  It also keeps out all the dust.

[GAtekwriter]

I'm using S-Video and it looks great... not sure if it matters, but I was told to buy a quality cable, though.

Jim

[FhM]

Dont decase your TV if you dont know what your doing as there is potentially lethal voltages stores in there if not discharged by someone who knows what they are doing.

[unclet]

I have a normal SVideo cable and it works fine.  I would not recommend buying Monster cables or such ...... they are way too expensive in my opinion and I can not tell the difference.  Just my opinion.

[SithMaster]

You should leave the tube inside the case.  People have removed it but its best to avoid that route if possible.

[Afterburner]

Along these same lines, how restrictive is it to use a TV?

Right now my cab has a 17" PC CRT monitor.

I have a 27 inch TV that I've been thinking about using in the cab.  It would fit perfectly and really give it that arcade cab feel.

My video card has an S-Video output, however, the TV does not have any inputs other than a coax RF input (yeah, it's really old).  So I'd need an RF modulator, but that isn't a big deal.

Do vertical games display properly on a TV?  Are there many (mame) games that can't be played on a TV because the resolution is so low?

I just wondering how much hassle I'd have using a TV....the PC monitor seems to work pretty well for me and I'm not sure I'd be happy if I switched.  But it sure would be nice to have that large screen.

[Fozzy The Bear]

My video card has an S-Video output, however, the TV does not have any inputs other than a coax RF input (yeah, it's really old).  So I'd need an RF modulator, but that isn't a big deal.

You really won't be happy with the image from a modulated signal. Especially after using a PC Monitor. It'll be very very fuzzy and unstable with weak and bleeding colours. Really not worth the cost of an RF Modulator.

You be better off using the money you would have spent on the modulator by buying a second hand TV that does have SCART or S-video or component input.

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)

[protokatie]

Are there many (mame) games that can't be played on a TV because the resolution is so low?

If your video card has Svideo out, then all it is doing is converting the image in its "native" resolution to NTSC or PAL resolutions. In other words, you can (sorta) display a 1280X800 on the TV, but the system has to convert it, so you will lose much of the detail (it become blurry). Basically, there are no normal NTSC/PAL resolutions on most Video Cards, and they take this into account and just convert to NTSC/PAL when it goes out to Svideo.

Unless there are any MAME games that require very sharp very hi-res imagery to play effectively (IE you need to be able to read small text for instance) the games should play fine on a TV. Also note, what Fozzy says is true, and even more than I imagine Fozzy knows: If you TV is NTSC, the RF modulation will cause much more colour bleed than PAL will!!!!

[Fozzy The Bear]

Also note, what Fozzy says is true, and even more than I imagine Fozzy knows: If you TV is NTSC, the RF modulation will cause much more colour bleed than PAL will!!!!

Oh! I know exactly what NTSC is like..... I work on standards conversion for NTSC to PAL and PAL to NTSC quite often. I've written software converters that now outperform the hardware ones in terms of getting good quality video conversions.

We have a saying that, NTSC stands for Never The Same Colour...  It really is the most inferior colour carrier system ever invented.

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)

[protokatie]

We have a saying that, NTSC stands for Never The Same Colour...  Grin It really is the most inferior colour carrier system ever invented

You can blame the commitee in the US for that, they had very strict rules on backwards compatibility for the signal with B/W sets. Also, wasnt NTSC the first to incorperate a color sub-carrier? That might have something to do with how crappy it is...

[Fozzy The Bear]

You can blame the commitee in the US for that, they had very strict rules on backwards compatibility for the signal with B/W sets. Also, wasnt NTSC the first to incorperate a color sub-carrier? That might have something to do with how crappy it is...

That's just like a Camel....... A horse designed by a comittee.   

And yes it was the first practical colour sub carrier system.

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)

[protokatie]

That's just like a Camel....... A horse designed by a comittee.  Grin Grin 

 

Yep, I can see the meeting now:

Director: Ok,ok, our client wants a quadrpedal animal that will work well in the desert, Jenkins, do you have any ideas?

J: Yes, I think it should conserve water well enough that it only drinks sparingly.

D: Ok, good. Where to we put the water? Mrs. smith?

S: Hmm, well we could design 2 humps on its back to hold it!

D: That might be expensive...

Mr Roberts butts in: We could have an economy model with only one hump!

D: Excellent! Good ideas. Now, what about defence? How should this animal defend itself?

R: Hmm, well we do have those big water tanks, maybe we could make it like to spit at things it doesnt like?

D: Yes, excellent idea. Also, Waste managment? Jenkins?

J: Hmm, well, we dont want it to cost more than the price point and with the features we already have, I dont think we have enough left over to deal with pollution. I say let it leave its waste whereever it wants.

D: Agreed! Ok, We now how our new FORD Mustang, desert edition!


 

[chrimeg]

Well I managed to get a 27" TV with S-Video.

I hooked it up to my computer with a ATI 32MB RageII 128 video card.

The picture seems really fuzzy I've tried to correct it using the ATI utility tha comes with the drivers for the card. The screen itself looks great when used as a T.V just seems to be a problem with the settings when running off the PC.

Whats weird is that when I set the DPI/Text size at 200% greater that the normal it lloks good. However, you have to move the mouse around to scroll the screen etc.

Any suggestions anyone?

[Green Giant]

Well I managed to get a 27" TV with S-Video.

I hooked it up to my computer with a ATI 32MB RageII 128 video card.

The picture seems really fuzzy I've tried to correct it using the ATI utility tha comes with the drivers for the card. The screen itself looks great when used as a T.V just seems to be a problem with the settings when running off the PC.

Whats weird is that when I set the DPI/Text size at 200% greater that the normal it lloks good. However, you have to move the mouse around to scroll the screen etc.

Any suggestions anyone?

When you say it looks fuzzy, what is it you are looking at.

Have you tried running mame on it.  On my cab the regular windows screen looks crappy but when Mala kicks in and I play mame, it is all good.

[chrimeg]

By fuzzy....I guess blurred.

All the text under Icons, window buttons etc is broken/pixel-lated.

When I set the resolution really high nothing fits on the screen and I have to move the mouse to scroll the screen around.

I'll try and take a picture to show you guys.

What resolution are you guys running on 27" T.V's.

[Afterburner]

Keep in mind that resolution of NTSC TV's is typically only 320 x 240.

Some CRT TV's will support resolutions up to 640 x 480, but these are rare.

I think the "enhanced" TV's may run up to that as well.

But yeah, if you set your resolution on the PC any higher than the native resolution of the TV, it's just going to give you a really big desktop with the scrolling you are describing.

Set it lower.

[Xiaou2]

There are a few factors at play...

 One thing is that the Older ATI cards have much worse tv out signal.   I believe that might
be the case with your current card.

 Also, some TVs have better or worse quality.

 My TV has automatic interlace capability, and component inputs.   So, when getting an svideo signal, its crystal clear.  I believe its capable of 480i resolution.  (640x480)

 Even tho my tv isnt supposed to support resolutions higher than 640x480..   I recall that my
last ATI card was able to pump 1024x768 to it,  by using a sort of software interlace trick.


 If your tv is an older model, and cant do interlacing... it may not be able to show a picture that
is very clear at all.

 If your software is trying to interlace, and sending out more info than your poor low-res tv can
display well..  its probably causing the problem with poor output.

[IG-88]

I have a cheapo Insignia flat screen that I've been tinkering around with today. I am using an All-in-Wonder 7500 for the card and it's set at 640 x 480. The picture is pretty good (and thats all a matter of perception I suppose). I just tried to go 1024 x 728 and it worked although the text in XP is damn near impossible to read at that size.

Why would a person want to go higher than a 640 x 480 anyway? I can get all my games to work so far with a little tweaking in Mame. I'm not being critical by the way, I'm new to using TV's myself and I'm just learning....

[Xiaou2]

 Some want to be able to navigate windows,  and in a setting less than 1024x768,  it can
be a bit of a pain.   Also, certain pc games may choose to play in that res.

 But yeah, most games are going to look great at 640.   The problem he is having, is cause
he can only get 320?  or a very very poor 640.

 As for text in 1024.. you'd want to tweak the ati settings.  Theres a reduce flicker setting, and
you turn that so that its got the most flicker.   Which gives the highest quality picture.
(software interlace)   You might also increase your font size a bit too.

 Personally, I kinda miss my old ATI card, which had crappy output and blended the pixels colors more
like how old arcade monitors did.  It lacked that software interlace too.   And it seems like you
can not disable the interlace on the new cards/software.

 I also wish there was a tweak in mame to adjust each R.G.B  individually,  so that the Bleeding that
occurs with svideo in the Red color channel could be turned down.   I currently dont have my tv
in a cab.. so while I could tweak the settings in the software... then it would mess up my desktop
settings for my pc monitor   


on the video card software...  then when you go

[FhM]

These days drivers generally have an option for profiles so you could have a profile for your TV and one for your PC monitor.

[ark_ader]

Ditch the ATI 128 Pro and get a basic ATI 7000. Use the Svideo out and get a short shielded cable 3 feet will do.  You can get this card in either AGP or PCI.  You can get a ATI 9200 as an alternative.

Encase the PC as it keeps everything cool and minimises on signal noise.

If you are running XP in your cab max the desktop size and use large fonts.

Otherwise like the guys here said, once you get a game like Donkey Kong on the TV you will lose the fuzziness.

Oh BTW you can run Daphne through that card and Dragon's Lair looks superb. 

[Fozzy The Bear]

I also wish there was a tweak in mame to adjust each R.G.B  individually,  so that the Bleeding that
occurs with svideo in the Red color channel could be turned down.

It's more to do with the way that colour is encoded in an NTSC signal than it is to do with adjusting RGB levels. NTSC simply can't cope with the bandwidth needed to produce a good signal.

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)

[cybergold]

Greetings from a new poster.

Fozzy, you suggest using an ArcadeVGA card and that it works well with tv's equipped with a SCART socket.  I'm thinking about using a Toshiba 43H70 with component inputs.  I have previously made a home made dongle for a projector to go from VGA to component.  Is there anything in the SCART socket that translates the incoming resolutions for the tv or will my tv work just as well?  The dongle I made was for a Home Theater in a Box that outputted by component into my projector's VGA socket.  I would think that it should work in the other direction.

Thanks

[ahofle]

Component won't be nearly as good as using SCART in this case.  You can't run authentic arcade resolutions over component -- you will have to force everything to 480i (or 576i for PAL).  The bright side is you won't need an ArcadeVGA card though.

[cybergold]

Okay, so I should stick with a regular old video card as the tv won't translate the resolutions that the ArcadeVGA is outputting.  I was wondering because the literature just mentions PC monitors.  Gotcha

Thanks

[ahofle]

Your best bet with a component TV is to get one of the ATI cards that supports the DVI to component adapter.  Search around here for "ATI DVI component" and you should find more about it.

[chrimeg]

Thx for the help. I guess I'll just change the card and cable and see what happens.

I've got a picture of my screen but the file is 2.5mb. To large to send here. I can email it to someone if they wish to see what I'm talking about.

[chrimeg]

I managed to shrink the picture down in gif format sh here it is....

[protokatie]

Looks pretty standard for trying to show a hi resolution image on a device intended for 640 (or so) by a mere 240 (or so) physical lines. I had an NTSC monitor (meant for the C64) that had a physical pixel set up that was like 320x 200 or so. You are only as limited as your display TV, as this is the weakest link (lowest capabitlity in res).

[chrimeg]

Well I've decided to use a new video card. I'm now using a Asus Geforce MX440-SE 64MB 8x AGP.

The screen resolutions are much better 320x480 and I can go lower I think.

Many features to play with on this card so I'll give a run in mame and see what a happens.

[Barracuda]

I am not sure if you guys have seen one of these.  They are NEC monitors that can usually be found on craigslist.  I used one in my cab and it turned out awesome.  It can do 1024x768 so that you can read small text.  If you can find one they are worth the money (mine was $125).  I know here in the US they used to be used in schools so they can be found at auctions too.  Check out all those input options in back!