UFC 81

[CCM]

Anyone else planning on watching the PPV this Saturday?   Should be a good one.  We'll finally get to see what Lesnar can do against a quality opponent.

[ChadTower]

I will watch it.

[chopps]

I'll be watching.   First UFC ive ordered since Hughes vs Gracie.  Looking forward to see how Brock will do.

[ChadTower]

IMO, it all depends on which Frank Mir shows up.  There's the world class Frank Mir and the lazy where's my check Frank Mir.  The real fighter might be able to deal with Lesnar on the ground - the lazy one doesn't stand a chance in hell.

[odysseyroc]

This is one of those fights that isn't going to tell us a whole lot about either guy. If Mir wins, it's nothing more than a win over a guy with 1 fight under his belt. If Lesnar wins, it's a win against a guy who has been in decline since his motorcycle accident. I'm interested in this fight, but I'm even more interested in Sylvia vs Nog.

[ChadTower]

If Lesnar wins it will at least prove he has the tools to hang with a top submission artist.  Even when Lazy Mir shows up he can submit all but the top guys at any moment.

I just don't see a whole ton of guys in Lesnar's size range that have any name value right now that would be reasonable matchups for him.  The UFC isn't exactly stacked with high quality 260lb guys.  They don't have much of a heavyweight ladder.  Other than Mir, they'd have to start him with an actual contender, and that just isn't realistic if they want to keep Lesnar as a valuable property.

[odysseyroc]

They didn't need to have him fight a name fighter. This is set up to be a showcase fight for Lesnar. They are hoping the same Mir that was TKO'ed by Pe De Pano shows up. Also, other than Sylvia, Mir hasn't really submitted anybody worth mentioning. I think that Mir's reputation was enhanced by fighting in one of the weakest HW divisions ever.

Lesnar really shouldn't be headlining an MMA event yet. He should be fighting somebody like Heath Herring or Eddie Sanchez on the undercard and getting some experience/wins. If he's headlining cards now, who does he fight if he beats Mir? They are risking having to push him without letting him develop.

The whole card looks pretty good for UFC 81, so I can't wait till saturday.

[ChadTower]

They didn't need to have him fight a name fighter.

They did if they want to use him to get PPV buys.  They need buzz in the heavyweight division ASAP - Couture's departure hurts them badly.  This is what they had up their sleeve.  It may not be best for Lesnar's development but it is what the UFC had to do short term.  Lesnar really can't lose - if he gets submitted, he's just not ready yet.  No one will call him a flop for getting submitted by Frank Mir.

Lesnar really shouldn't be headlining an MMA event yet.

I can't see him headlining a card that has Sylvia-Nogueira and Jeremy Horn on it.  They're pushing Lesnar hard on Spike to attract the pro wrestling audience but I haven't see a ton of Lesnar in the other usual media the UFC uses.  No more than the other fighters, anyway.

FWIW, I mostly agree with you - they're trying to walk the line between using his name value and not headlining him.  It seems more confusing than anything else.

[Chemixtry]

I can't see him headlining a card that has Sylvia-Nogueira and Jeremy Horn on it.

Jeremy Horn - that dude used to be so good but he has been lackluster lately. I saw him fight live at Art of War 3 in Dallas he put on a disappointing show. If Brock wins I would like to see him go up against a quality striker like Cheik Kongo or Arlovski.

[ChadTower]

Kongo has gone to decision his last 3 fights - and lost one of them.  He would probably get destroyed by a grappler with the size and accomplishments of Lesnar.

That said, he may just be a good next opponent whether Lesnar wins or loses, if they are determined to build Lesnar as the top name property he has the potential to be.

Lesnar isn't anywhere near ready for Arlovski.  Arlovski has some losses now but look who they're to... Sylvia, Rizzo, Rico Rodriguez...

[Chemixtry]

I also think Lesnar versus Josh Barnett would be interesting if they could get him into the UFC again

[odysseyroc]

Kongo has gone to decision his last 3 fights - and lost one of them.  He would probably get destroyed by a grappler with the size and accomplishments of Lesnar.

That said, he may just be a good next opponent whether Lesnar wins or loses, if they are determined to build Lesnar as the top name property he has the potential to be.

Lesnar isn't anywhere near ready for Arlovski.  Arlovski has some losses now but look who they're to... Sylvia, Rizzo, Rico Rodriguez...

Arlovski is most likely gone from the UFC after he fights O'Brien. I think they sort of buried him, because he got boring after Sylvia KO'ed him.

[ChadTower]

Heh.  I have no idea why they keep Sylvia around.  Crowds boo him.  His fights are as boring as MMA gets.  He doesn't even try to do damage anymore - all he does is stand on the outside and jab.  Sure, he wins, but he can't sell PPV buys.  They had to stick Brock Lesnar on this one to make up for Sylvia being the main event.

[havic626]

Ill wait till the next day and d/l off bt 

[Jouster]

I had never even heard of Lesnar prior to the last PPV when they promo'd this one.  And I still couldn't give a crap about some roided up actor...excuse me, wrestler. 

Jouster

[ChadTower]

So placing second in NCAA Div 1 in 1999 and winning it in 2000 don't do anything for you?

In a funny bit of info... the guy who beat Lesnar in 1999 for that championship?  Stephen Neal, starting guard, New England Patriots.   

[odysseyroc]

I think Lesnar is going to win on saturday and I think he's got the tools to become really good. Most MMA fans are mad that he gets to go to the front of the line with no real MMA experience. Chad is correct about him having  legit wrestling credentials.

[CCM]

I had never even heard of Lesnar prior to the last PPV when they promo'd this one.  And I still couldn't give a crap about some roided up actor...excuse me, wrestler. 

Jouster

I'm sure he's roided plenty in his day, but you can't deny his legit wrestling skill.  His biggest problem will be defending Mir's submissions.   I think Mir is a great test to see if Lesnar is for real or not.

[CCM]

Good article about Mir:

http://www.mmaweekly.com/absolutenm/templates/dailynews.asp?articleid=5579&zoneid=2

He is confident about his chances facing Lesnar, but he’s also realistic as to what he needs to do to pull off a win in this pivotal heavyweight match-up.

“Definitely a finish cause that’s the only way I’m going to win,” said Mir. “I’m not going to out-wrestle Lesnar for 15 minutes and put him on his back and hold him down. So for me to win I either have to take his arm or neck, or knock him upside his head.”

[odysseyroc]

I'm sure he's roided plenty in his day, but you can't deny his legit wrestling skill.  His biggest problem will be defending Mir's submissions.   I think Mir is a great test to see if Lesnar is for real or not.

a good wrestler who's been seriously training in avoiding submission is really hard to submit. That's why Mark Kerr was Abu Dhabi champ back in the days. He'd just take guys down and kill their movement. If you can't move your hips, you ain't submitting anybody.

Depending on how good Lesnar's boxing is, this fight might never even hit the ground.

[ChadTower]

a good wrestler who's been seriously training in avoiding submission is really hard to submit. That's why Mark Kerr was Abu Dhabi champ back in the days. He'd just take guys down and kill their movement. If you can't move your hips, you ain't submitting anybody.

It's also damn near impossible to submit someone with the strength of a pissed off bear.  You have to get it quickly and perfectly or they just rip the limb out.

[CCM]

a good wrestler who's been seriously training in avoiding submission is really hard to submit. That's why Mark Kerr was Abu Dhabi champ back in the days. He'd just take guys down and kill their movement. If you can't move your hips, you ain't submitting anybody.

It's also damn near impossible to submit someone with the strength of a pissed off bear.  You have to get it quickly and perfectly or they just rip the limb out.

I wouldn't say it's damn near impossible, there's plenty of strong mma fighters that have been submitted.  Kevin Randlmen, Mark Kerr, Bob Sapp, Jeff Monson have all been submitted.  The strength of 'a pissed off bear' isn't gonna be enough to avoid submissions.

Alot of people believe that pound for pound Matt Hughes is one of the strongest fighters in mma and he's been submitted.

You can be the strongest guy in the world and if you can't defend submissions, you're in trouble.

Now, I'm not saying that Lesnar doesn't have good submission defense (I don't think any of us know that based on his one fight), I'm just saying that brute strength alone won't save you.

[ChadTower]

He doesn't have brute strength alone.  Combine the strength with the wrestling ability and that is a very different story.

Did you really put Bob Sapp into this?    

[shardian]

You can be the strongest guy in the world and if you can't defend submissions, you're in trouble.

Example: UFC IV - Dan Severn Vs. Joyce Gracie. Severn was an excellent wrestler, was big, and strong as a bear. He lost because he wasn't a good striker, and he didn't know how to defend submissions. However, he learned that stuff and went on to be very sucessful in MMA.

When I think of Brock Lesnar in MMA, I compare him most closely to Dan Severn.

[ChadTower]

You can't compare the guys from that era with the guys from today.  The sport has evolved too far.  That was proven pretty conclusively when Royce Gracie got his ass handed to him by Matt Hughes - that fight wasn't even close.

There is just no way Lesnar is going to come in without having learned decent submission defense.  He's been working over a year for this and has world class trainers teaching him.  If that were to happen they should all leave MMA and never return.

[CCM]

Did you really put Bob Sapp into this?    

   he may have been a reach...


 

[ChadTower]

So Lesnar got caught... it was pretty much win-win for the UFC.  Lesnar does more than enough to prove he is for real.  Mir wins a really tough one decisively and jumps right back into the heavyweight title picture.  Mir is younger than Lesnar.  Now instead of one potential monster they get a potential monster that reasonably needs more work and the return of a former heavyweight champion that is still only 28.

Lesnar needs more work on submission defense and gameplan execution.  He kept leaving his limbs way out there and using power to yank them out of danger.  That may work against 99% of jiu jitsu guys on the planet but it won't work against Frank Mir.  A guy like Nogueria would finish him even faster.

It was good to see both guys classy after the fight.  The boos for Lesnar turned to cheers when he was all class and props for Mir in the post fight interview.

[shardian]

So Lesnar got caught... it was pretty much win-win for the UFC.  Lesnar does more than enough to prove he is for real.  Mir wins a really tough one decisively and jumps right back into the heavyweight title picture.  Mir is younger than Lesnar.  Now instead of one potential monster they get a potential monster that reasonably needs more work and the return of a former heavyweight champion that is still only 28.

Lesnar needs more work on submission defense and gameplan execution.  He kept leaving his limbs way out there and using power to yank them out of danger.  That may work against 99% of jiu jitsu guys on the planet but it won't work against Frank Mir.  A guy like Nogueria would finish him even faster.

It was good to see both guys classy after the fight.  The boos for Lesnar turned to cheers when he was all class and props for Mir in the post fight interview.

I watched that fight this morning. At  a minute thirty, it didn't take much out of my day. That fight served as a clinic as to how absolutley impressive and dominating jiu jitsu can be. The dude knew he didn't have a prayer fighting, so he just went for any submission he could sneak into. That was crazy that Lesnar just shook off that arm bar. He will be scary good once he learns to defend against submissions. And like I said before, it was the EXACT same outcome as Dan Severn's fight with Gracie 9not technically, but the situation was the same). Lesnar was dominant, but the submission expert took a beating and latched on at the first opening.

Lesnar will come back and do much better next time.

[ChadTower]

I was surprised at how out of control Lesnar was... that has to be inexperience.  He would get on top and instead of gaining a solid body control, which would be easy with his bulk, he'd just press Mir down and start dropping hammer fists.  Only once did he spin for a better position - and he did it with startling ease.  It really looked like adrenaline got the best of Lesnar and he didn't execute his gameplan very well.  I think that lack of control is what cost him the fight more than anything else.

[shardian]

I was surprised at how out of control Lesnar was... that has to be inexperience.  He would get on top and instead of gaining a solid body control, which would be easy with his bulk, he'd just press Mir down and start dropping hammer fists.  Only once did he spin for a better position - and he did it with startling ease.  It really looked like adrenaline got the best of Lesnar and he didn't execute his gameplan very well.  I think that lack of control is what cost him the fight more than anything else.

The pull off and penalty probably did more to upset his concentration. When exactly did UFC outlaw head punches anyway?? That has been a staple defense attack since forever. Even recently, remember Tito Ortiz turning Ken Shamrocks head in a likeness of the Toxic Avenger? It appeared to me Mir was taking advantage of that rule to break things up.

[ChadTower]

The pull off and penalty probably did more to upset his concentration. When exactly did UFC outlaw head punches anyway??

Back of the head has been illegal for a long time.  That isn't necessarily a UFC rule - it is an athletic commission rule in most places.  I believe it is illegal in boxing too.  Lesnar hit Mir right in the back of the head - but Mir was turning away at the time.  The ref took the point with zero warnings given.  I've never seen that before except in obviously intentional situations.  It was a terrible call that should have been a verbal warning and not a stoppage at all.

That has been a staple defense attack since forever. Even recently, remember Tito Ortiz turning Ken Shamrocks head in a likeness of the Toxic Avenger? It appeared to me Mir was taking advantage of that rule to break things up.

When that happens in other fights the guy on top will usually stop punching or start throwing punches to the temple/ear with more care.  Lesnar didn't have the personal control to do that.  Of course, if you stay rolled up and don't defend yourself, the ref starts yelling "do something, get out of this" until it happens or the ref stops the fight.  That stoppage may have saved Mir but I don't think he was hurt enough to say it did.

[CCM]

I was surprised at how out of control Lesnar was... that has to be inexperience.  He would get on top and instead of gaining a solid body control, which would be easy with his bulk, he'd just press Mir down and start dropping hammer fists.  Only once did he spin for a better position - and he did it with startling ease.  It really looked like adrenaline got the best of Lesnar and he didn't execute his gameplan very well.  I think that lack of control is what cost him the fight more than anything else.

Yea, I think Lesnar's lack of experience and adrenaline definitely got the best of him.  He had no control whatsoever.   With his size and power he can be great, but he's got some serious work ahead of him.  I hope he learns from this fight that his strength alone won't win him every fight.  If he wants to be a ground and pound fighter, he needs to go watch some Couture tapes and see how it's supposed to be done.

I wonder where the UFC is going to go from here?  Does Mir get a shot a Nogueria next?  With Sylvia losing, I could see Lesnar possibly fighting him next.  And then there's Kongo, if he wins next month he may be in the mix for a title shot.

[CCM]

The ref took the point with zero warnings given.  I've never seen that before except in obviously intentional situations.  It was a terrible call that should have been a verbal warning and not a stoppage at all.

I wonder if the fact that Lesnar was so out of control contributed to the immediate stoppage and point penalty? 

It definitely looked like Mir turned his head and it was a bit too quick of a stoppage, but I seriously doubt that Lesnar would have even heard a warning in the crazy state he was in. 

[ChadTower]

If he wants to be a ground and pound fighter, he needs to go watch some Couture tapes and see how it's supposed to be done.

Why tapes?  If he wants to be a ground and pounder he should go train with Couture.     How cool would it be for the hot ex girlfriend of the heavyweight division to come back with an unstoppable monster to corner?

The adrenaline problem does surprise me a little bit from a guy who has main evented Wrestlemania.  He has been in front of much larger crowds many times more than almost anyone in MMA.  I know it's not the same but the size of the spectacle alone is enough to intimidate a lot of guys.

I wonder where the UFC is going to go from here?  Does Mir get a shot a Nogueria next?  With Sylvia losing, I could see Lesnar possibly fighting him next.  And then there's Kongo, if he wins next month he may be in the mix for a title shot.

I don't think beating a guy in his second fight gets Mir a title shot.  It puts him probably on the second tier - only that high because the division is thin.  A Mir-Sylvia matchup is highly marketable.  They can show Sylvia's arm breaking every 15 seconds for months.

Lesnar needs to fight a bottom tier UFC heavyweight, I think.  He just lost convincingly.  Giving him Sylvia now just doesn't make sense from a ladder perspective. 

It definitely looked like Mir turned his head and it was a bit too quick of a stoppage, but I seriously doubt that Lesnar would have even heard a warning in the crazy state he was in.

It's possible Lesnar wouldn't have heard a warning but the ref still has to follow the rules.  It's not like Mir was semiconscious and in mortal danger.  FWIW, Lesnar did hear the ref call for a stoppage and the ref didn't have to jump in.

[CCM]

Why tapes?  If he wants to be a ground and pounder he should go train with Couture.     How cool would it be for the hot ex girlfriend of the heavyweight division to come back with an unstoppable monster to corner?

That would be phenomenal for Lesnar.  Couture would turn him into a beast!


If not Mir, who's next for Nogueria?  The heavyweight division is so weak right now...  Who are the top guys?

Nogueria
Sylvia
Mir
Kongo
Vera?

Couture is gone, Cro Cop and Herring turned out to be busts, Arlovski seems to be done with the UFC, Gonzaga lost his last 2 fights.
 
If Kongo wins next month,  maybe you give him the shot?



***edited for my lack of quote-fu

[ChadTower]

That would be phenomenal for Lesnar.  Couture would turn him into a beast!

If not Mir, who's next for Nogueria? 

Kongo or Werdum are my guesses.  I would have said Gonzaga but Werdum just beat Gonzaga.  Best guess is that it will be a good while before we see another heavyweight title fight.  There just aren't any compelling matchups right now - the division is too thin. 

Couture is gone, Cro Cop and Herring turned out to be busts, Arlovski seems to be done with the UFC, Gonzaga lost his last 2 fights.

Herring may be a great next opponent for Lesnar.  Another strong name that hasn't lived up to expectations in the UFC - they need to get some revenue out of Herring soon.

If Kongo wins next month,  maybe you give him the shot?

Probably.

[shardian]

Well they could steal Kimbo Slice and let him and Lesnar slug it out. I'd pay to see that.

[Samstag]

I watched that fight this morning. At  a minute thirty, it didn't take much out of my day. That fight served as a clinic as to how absolutley impressive and dominating jiu jitsu can be. The dude knew he didn't have a prayer fighting, so he just went for any submission he could sneak into. That was crazy that Lesnar just shook off that arm bar. He will be scary good once he learns to defend against submissions. And like I said before, it was the EXACT same outcome as Dan Severn's fight with Gracie 9not technically, but the situation was the same). Lesnar was dominant, but the submission expert took a beating and latched on at the first opening.

Look around the nets for a video of the Fedor/Hong-man fight this past New Year's Eve.  Fedor's considered to be the best heavyweight in the world, Hong-man is a 7'2.5" 335 pound monster.  It was a very similar fight.  Pound, pound, pound, arm-bar attempt, pound, pound, arm-bar.

The adrenaline problem does surprise me a little bit from a guy who has main evented Wrestlemania.  He has been in front of much larger crowds many times more than almost anyone in MMA.  I know it's not the same but the size of the spectacle alone is enough to intimidate a lot of guys.

When the outcome is predetermined, the only pressure is worrying about screwing up the choreography.

[ChadTower]

Well they could steal Kimbo Slice and let him and Lesnar slug it out. I'd pay to see that.

Heh.  Slice is under contract to Elite XC, I think.  I have to assume that Lesnar would be able to take Slice without a problem so long as he didn't get caught in the first two seconds.  Lesnar would be able to take him down instantly, like Mir, and Slice wouldn't be a monster on his back. 

When the outcome is predetermined, the only pressure is worrying about screwing up the choreography.

So dancers, singers, actors, etc have no right to be nervous about performing in front of 50,000 people?  Better tell them that.  They seem to disagree.

Mike Goldberg put it really well in the prefight.  Something like "don't think of Lesnar as an actor - this guy is a fighter who took some time off to make money acting and has come back to fight again".  Quite a few top MMA names over the years have made some side cash in pro wrestling.

[CCM]

Well they could steal Kimbo Slice and let him and Lesnar slug it out. I'd pay to see that.

Kimbo is fighting Tank Abbot this month in EliteXC.. that is worth watching just for the circus aspect.

[Samstag]

When the outcome is predetermined, the only pressure is worrying about screwing up the choreography.

So dancers, singers, actors, etc have no right to be nervous about performing in front of 50,000 people?  Better tell them that.  They seem to disagree.

I would argue that 95% of wrestling fans can't tell when something's been screwed up.  I would also argue that while it takes some big balls to wrestle at the top level in front of millions of fans, it takes an entirely different kind of courage to face another professional fighter for real when you know that one little slip means an instant knockout or knee-bar submission.  Now he's a clip in a highlight reel.

That said, I think if he sticks with it and gets a few more fights under his belt he'll come back and destroy Mir next time.

[hulkster]

When the outcome is predetermined, the only pressure is worrying about screwing up the choreography.

So dancers, singers, actors, etc have no right to be nervous about performing in front of 50,000 people?  Better tell them that.  They seem to disagree.

I would argue that 95% of wrestling fans can't tell when something's been screwed up.  I would also argue that while it takes some big balls to wrestle at the top level in front of millions of fans, it takes an entirely different kind of courage to face another professional fighter for real when you know that one little slip means an instant knockout or knee-bar submission.  Now he's a clip in a highlight reel.

That said, I think if he sticks with it and gets a few more fights under his belt he'll come back and destroy Mir next time.

im not an avid ufc fan, but i do like the occasional bout now and then.  i used to be a HUGE wrestling fan about 5-6 years ago (as shown by my user name  )  so when i saw that lesnar was going to fight, i was pretty excited to see it just for the pure fact that the man is a freakin beast.  wrestling is fake (wwe anyway) obviously, but the stuff that he could do was just pure strength and athleticism.  that doesnt translate into ufc champions by any means, but it sure does help. 

anyway, i watched the fight replay on youtube and honestly, if lesnar hadnt made the rookie mistake of standing there with his legs exposed, he wouldve knocked mir out.  he was wailing on him hardcore, and really only made ONE mistake and that was leaving his leg exposed.  but that does show the veteran ability of mir in that all he needed was one opening to take the biggest man down.  i think if lesnar had a few more matches of experience, he wouldve torn up mir in the first round.

[ChadTower]

he was wailing on him hardcore, and really only made ONE mistake and that was leaving his leg exposed. 

Lesnar made that mistake with his arm about 3 times before Mir realized he wasn't going to be able to crank an arm that big and changed to going for a leg.  He had the armbar set up twice and Lesnar just ripped his arm out - pure power but the mistake was made over and over again until Mir finally got one.

[hulkster]

he was wailing on him hardcore, and really only made ONE mistake and that was leaving his leg exposed. 

Lesnar made that mistake with his arm about 3 times before Mir realized he wasn't going to be able to crank an arm that big and changed to going for a leg.  He had the armbar set up twice and Lesnar just ripped his arm out - pure power but the mistake was made over and over again until Mir finally got one.

good call.  i didnt really notice until i watched again.  i think he had a gameplan going in because he kept talking about how he had practiced all the submission stuff, but i think once he got him on the ground all his practice and gameplan went out the door and he just wanted to beat the crap out of the guy.  thats probably just pure instinct and aggression.  i remember reading some stuff about his tryout with the vikings and some of players said he had so much energy and rage going into every tackle and play that it was kinda scary.  so much tenacity.  he's a scary dude when he gets going.

i know his thing in the wwe was fake, but he did such a good job of looking pissed off and coming at the other wrestlers that it was just scary.  now that ive seen him in a REAL fight....its even scarier.  his arms are like tree trunks.  i give him 3 or 4 more real fights until he starts becoming a force.   

[Jouster]

I think Kongo is the next best bet to get a shot...he has looked pretty tough.

I was impressed with Lesnar...having never seen him ever in my life, he showed a lot of potential.  It is just too difficult to take 1 - 2 years of training into the octagon with guys that have decades or so of BJJ training and expect not to get submitted.  If he learns to use his strength better and gets more versed in submission defense he'd be really impressive.

I also noticed the boos turned to cheers after his post fight interview.  I think a lot of people may have been thinking the same thing I was...when his fight was coming up and they were showing all of the actors/wrestlers in the audience...I actually said to the TV that I hope the UFC doesn't turn in to a joke like pro wrestling.

Jouster

[ChadTower]

It was notable that the ring announcer called him an NCAA champion and a former WWE superstar... but not a former WWE champion.  Guess they didn't want people thinking about the championship concept in pro wrestling.  During the hype bits they did show him with the WWE belt and called him a former WWE champion.

[hulkster]

..I actually said to the TV that I hope the UFC doesn't turn in to a joke like pro wrestling.

Jouster

well as a former fan of "pro" wrestling, it never really took itself serious to begin with.  so to call it a joke is really unfair, because its not trying to be serious in the sense of the word.  vince mcmahon always says that he is "in the entertainment business" not in the wrestling business.  he knows the difference in "real" wrestling and what he does.  he incorporates real wrestling and athleticism with scripted events.  its not a joke, its just like a movie or a soap opera. 

would you call movies a joke to real life?  is the Terminator a pathetic excuse for real post apocalyptic events??  no, its just a movie, and its fake, and everyone knows it is, but its a movie and entertains for that purpose alone.  thats all the wwe is, and all it ever was.  ufc is much more brutal and guys will get knocked out and cut and broken bones and stuff, but they arent doing backflips off the top of a ladder through a table either.  both have their niche audience.

[ChadTower]

well as a former fan of "pro" wrestling, it never really took itself serious to begin with.

For over 100 years the pro wrestling business took itself so seriously that a pro wrestler would beat the ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- out of you in a bar if you questioned the integrity of the "sport".  The entertainment nature of pro wrestling was a very very closely protected secret.  It is only in the last 10-12 years that the actual nature of pro wrestling has been open for the general public to see.

IIRC it mostly started around 1994 when WCW started holding television tapings months in advance, with live crowds, that included title changes that wouldn't be acknowledged until a couple of months later.  The business had been shifting a little but that was the first open exposure to the "internet public". 

[shardian]

For over 100 years the pro wrestling business took itself so seriously that a pro wrestler would beat the ---Cleveland steamer--- out of you in a bar if you questioned the integrity of the "sport".  The entertainment nature of pro wrestling was a very very closely protected secret.  It is only in the last 10-12 years that the actual nature of pro wrestling has been open for the general public to see.

Oh man, back in the 60's and 70's, wrestling was a HARDCORE serious sport for fans. I remember seeing a documentary that detailed the Andy Kaufman - Jerry Lawler feud in Memphis Wrestling. The majority of fans were old women, and those old women were PISSED at Kaufman to the point they would probably beat him with their purse if they saw him in public.

It has always been a big deal in Mexico and Japan too - more so than in the States.

[ChadTower]

This is why a lot of pro wrestlers used to have criminal records and a history of violence in real life.  If they wanted to succeed in the business, they had to follow its rules, which included severe reactions to people asking insider questions in the wrong context. 

For the most part it was the advent of the internet that brought about the downfall of that era of pro wrestling.  TV tapings had been held for many years, but all of a sudden, information could be spread all over the world in a day or less.  A person from the taping would send results in to a web page and suddenly everyone knew two months ahead of time that Rick Rude was going to be the WCW Heavyweight Champion and on what date it would happen.  WCW didn't anticipate that - and they couldn't do anything about it.  They didn't have the money to adjust after banking everything they had left on booking Disney facilities and taping 3 months' of TV in advance.

[hulkster]

well as a former fan of "pro" wrestling, it never really took itself serious to begin with.

It is only in the last 10-12 years that the actual nature of pro wrestling has been open for the general public to see.

yeah, i didnt really say it, but i was referring more to the last 10-12 years.  i remember my grandmother going nuts watching wrestling, and people crying when so and so lost.  i know it was considered real back in the day to many. 

i was mainly referring to brock lesnar and his time in the wwe, so thats where i was coming from.  not just with the entire history of pro wrestling.

[ChadTower]

I remember my mother getting very upset about King Kong Bundy splashing Hulk Hogan over and over again on Saturday Night's Main Event... when Hogan started "convulsing" I thought she was going to call the cops.   

[shardian]

I remember my mother getting very upset about King Kong Bundy splashing Hulk Hogan over and over again on Saturday Night's Main Event... when Hogan started "convulsing" I thought she was going to call the cops.   

I thought Sgt. Slaughter really was a traitor and friends with Saddam... I think I might have shed a tear when he attacked hogan and locked in the cobra clutch until hogan passed out.

[hulkster]

I remember my mother getting very upset about King Kong Bundy splashing Hulk Hogan over and over again on Saturday Night's Main Event... when Hogan started "convulsing" I thought she was going to call the cops.   

I thought Sgt. Slaughter really was a traitor and friends with Saddam... I think I might have shed a tear when he attacked hogan and locked in the cobra clutch until hogan passed out.

and for the record, when earthquake sat on hulk hogan and sent him to the hospital on a stretcher....i cried.

[ChadTower]

I guess this is all we need to know about Arlovski.  A former heavyweight champion listed near the bottom of the card as a "may not be broadcast" prelim.

 

[lordtodd75]

Koscheck and Sanchez at the bottom of the undercard as well. Oh how the mighty have fallen.

[ChadTower]

That doesn't make sense to me.  Koscheck is a title contender that is coming off a loss to maybe the hottest fighter on the planet right now.  I can maybe see Sanchez given that he has lost two long decsions in a row...

...but neither of those guys is a former champion like Arlovski.  All I can think of is that they want to get one last dollar from his contract before it expires but they don't want him to get any attention for it in the process.

[CCM]

Looks like Cro Cop is out of the UFC for now... not that it's much of a surprise...

With much speculation swirling about him recently, Mirko “Cro Cop” Filipovic was in attendance at the press conference where it was announced that he would now be fighting under the Dream banner. One official of the new promotion said that he was hopeful they would be able to have Filipovic fight on the March 15 event, but that they could not officially confirm it yet.

Addressing several question marks surrounding him, Filipovic stated that he is physically and mentally recovered from his recent disappointments in the Ultimate Fighting Championship.

http://www.mmaweekly.com/absolutenm/templates/dailynews.asp?articleid=5691&zoneid=13

[ChadTower]

Looks like Cro Cop is out of the UFC for now... not that it's much of a surprise...

What is Dream?  Is it full MMA or straight kickboxing?

[CCM]

Dream is a K-1 event. 


http://www.k-1.co.jp/k-1gp/index.htm

[ChadTower]

That explains why I didn't know it.  I read that as meaning he was signing with some promotion named Dream.  I do know K1.  Cro Cop belongs there.

[odysseyroc]

Dream is an MMA promotion that is owned by several former top Pride execs. It's being run by K1 like Hero's.

As far as I know, the Arlvoski fight is not being televised because he's on his way out of the UFC and they don't want to promote him before he ends up in a rival promotion. I'm sure Koscheck isn't being shown because he's a boring "lay n' pray" fighter and not a fan favorite. The one the puzzles me is Diego Sanchez. Sure, he's coming off of 2 losses, but he still brings it and is exciting.

[ChadTower]

Why fight Arlovski at all, then?  If you're not going to broadcast it what is the use when you could give that fight to someone coming up? 

[odysseyroc]

Why fight Arlovski at all, then?  If you're not going to broadcast it what is the use when you could give that fight to someone coming up? 

Because he has one fight left on his contract. They were about to do the same thing to Brandon Vera a year or so ago when he had one fight left and was holding out.

[CCM]

Why fight Arlovski at all, then?  If you're not going to broadcast it what is the use when you could give that fight to someone coming up? 

He probably has 1 last fight on his contract.  For the UFC to honor that contract I would think they would have to put him in a fight or risk more legal action/controversy.  So they give him an un-hyped undercard fight and they're done with him.  Makes sense to me...

[ChadTower]

Hrm.  It hadn't occurred to me that they have to give him his set number of fights.  I figured he had to give them the fights if they wanted them but I figured the UFC could simply say "we don't need you anymore" and wait out the end of the deal.  I guess if he's getting paid by fight and not by duration that makes sense.

[ChadTower]

Kimbo is fighting Tank Abbot this month in EliteXC.. that is worth watching just for the circus aspect.

Anyone else watch this?  Kimbo looks much better than his first fight - he had good spacing, good movement.  He needs to learn to listen to the ref better.  His power is unbelievable - but of course, no one has hit him yet and he has yet to face anyone with any submission or grappling.  Tank Abbott looked like he barely trained for this fight.  Tank is either completely done - and just showed up to take punches for a check - or he took Kimbo way too lightly.  It's a little scary to see Bas Rutten standing in Kimbo's corner.  I can't think of a trainer anywhere in the world that could turn this guy into more of a real monster.

Who might be next for Kimbo?  Looking at their roster I can see one of two ways - give him another striker like Cabbage Correira or Antonio Silva.

Does EliteXC really have Ninja Hua, Ricco Rodriguez, Robbie Lawler, Renzo Gracie, Frank Shamrock, all under contract?  Or are these guys that just had one fight deals at some point?  I remember Shamrock fighting for them and getting DQed and that felt like a one shot deal.

They appear to have Gina Carano too.  I think I actually remember her fighting for them before Amercian Gladiators aired.

[CCM]

I watched it. Kimbo is a beast, but Tank is done.  I'd love to see Kimbo in there against someone who could take him down.  It would be very interesting to see EliteXc sign Arlovski.

I saw Tank on Kimmel the week before the fight and he claimed to be training seriously for this fight, he said he was 296 pounds for his last fight in London (in which he got knocked out).  He said he lost about 40 pounds since that last fight. 

EliteXc has some great fighters.  Did you see the Yves Edwards fight, I don't think I've ever seen anyone throw a knee like that before.   If Ricco can lose some weight and keep clean, he could do some damage, I didn't realize he is only 30.

Gina Carano has had 2 fights for EliteXc and in a recent interview said she wanted to get back in the ring as soon as possible.  She said she will be filming the second season of American Gladiators in March and April and wants to fight soon after that.

I'm pretty sure Frank Shamrock fights for Strikeforce, but they have joint events with EliteXc.

[ChadTower]

I watched it. Kimbo is a beast, but Tank is done.  I'd love to see Kimbo in there against someone who could take him down.  It would be very interesting to see EliteXc sign Arlovski.

Arlovski will probably have a pretty high price tag.  I don't know that EliteXC has that sort of budget.

Did you see the Yves Edwards fight, I don't think I've ever seen anyone throw a knee like that before.   

No, only got the chance to see the Kimbo/Tank fight.  Wish I could have seen the whole event.

[CCM]

The whole event was great, 4 great knockouts, including Tank.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3S3oBkNOGo[/youtube]

[ChadTower]

Just poking around some more... found this.  Look at that stupid photo.  Either those guys are burn victims or they photoshopped that severely to make them look ripped.  Look at Silva's head... apparently, as he strains his upper body, he has tendons in his head that are bulging too.   


EDIT:  BTW, rumors on the web are that Lesnar fights again at UFC 85.

[CCM]

On that same mmaweekly.com website, there is an article about Paul Buentello challenging Kimbo.

[ChadTower]

Eh, fighter to fighter challenges are nothing but talk.  They have little control over who they fight and when.

[CCM]

True, but it would be an interesting matchup. 

[ChadTower]

I want to see Kimbo against a grappler, preferably a wrestler.  Someone that will actually do more than stand there and stick their chin out.

BTW, if they took a point away from Lesnar for back of the head strikes while both were down, Kimbo raining down on the back of Abbott's head from a standing position should have been a DQ.  That was so much worse than what Lesnar did.

[CCM]

I've read conflicting reports on Lesnar's next fight some say that Lesnar has been pulled off the UFC 85 card due to his loss to MIr, others say he will be on the card.  Most reports seem to be pointing to him not fighting.

It seems like the original plan was for Lesnar to beat Mir, then headline UFC 85.

Liddell vs Shogun is the headliner of UFC 85 as of now.

Brandon Vera has said that he is fighting on UFC 85, but I highly doubt he would be matched up with Lesnar.

[ChadTower]

Brandon Vera has said that he is fighting on UFC 85, but I highly doubt he would be matched up with Lesnar.

I've seen a couple of "tentative" ufc 85 cards and they usually have Lesnar vs TBA and Vera vs TBA - no reason to think they are fighting each other.  I don't see a whole lot of reason to pull Lesnar from 85, either.  Just don't give him a former world champion this time. 

Find a way to get Lesnar and Kimbo.   

[shardian]

The whole event was great, 4 great knockouts, including Tank.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3S3oBkNOGo[/youtube]

Hehe, saw that one coming a mile away.

[CCM]

Find a way to get Lesnar and Kimbo.   

Now that would be a fight! 

[clanggedin]

Kimbo is fighting Tank Abbot this month in EliteXC.. that is worth watching just for the circus aspect.

Anyone else watch this?  Kimbo looks much better than his first fight - he had good spacing, good movement.  He needs to learn to listen to the ref better.  His power is unbelievable - but of course, no one has hit him yet and he has yet to face anyone with any submission or grappling.  Tank Abbott looked like he barely trained for this fight.  Tank is either completely done - and just showed up to take punches for a check - or he took Kimbo way too lightly.  It's a little scary to see Bas Rutten standing in Kimbo's corner.  I can't think of a trainer anywhere in the world that could turn this guy into more of a real monster.

Who might be next for Kimbo?  Looking at their roster I can see one of two ways - give him another striker like Cabbage Correira or Antonio Silva.

Does EliteXC really have Ninja Hua, Ricco Rodriguez, Robbie Lawler, Renzo Gracie, Frank Shamrock, all under contract?  Or are these guys that just had one fight deals at some point?  I remember Shamrock fighting for them and getting DQed and that felt like a one shot deal.

They appear to have Gina Carano too.  I think I actually remember her fighting for them before Amercian Gladiators aired.

That fight really didn't show much of anything about Kimbo. It only lasted 45 seconds.. I would like to see him fight a grappler like Mir, so we can see if he has any ground game.

Frank Shamrock's first fight with EliteXC was against Renzo Gracie in which Shamrock was DQ'd for illegal strikes. He then fought Phil Baroni for the middleweight title I believe. Shamrock won that fight.. He fights Kung Le next to defend his title. It will be Kung Le's hardest fight to date.

All of the guy you mentioned are all still under contract with EliteXC. The UFC has no desire to sign Ricco, Lawler currently. I don't believe they would even want Frank back either.

I am not sure I like the EliteXC because they are similar to PrideFC in which they like to book freak show fights that are pretty lame. (Kimbo vs Tank). The last I heard Kimbo has been training @ Extreme Couture in LV, so needs to not be given any more tin cans and someone that will actually test his skills, similar to Lesner.

Lesner's next fight will probably be against team punishment's Justin McCully (8-3-2 MMA, 1-0 UFC). Justin said he has been approached about this fight happening at UFC 85, but right now it's still not definite.

Even though agreements have not been signed it's highly likely Brandon Vera will be facing Fabricio Verdum at UFC 85.

Also Wanderlei Silva will be fighting Keith Jardine at UFC 84... I don't understand how you can lose to Liddell and get to fight the guy that beat him.. Usually when you lose you have to fight someone who has also lost to your opponent. I guess they figure if he beats Jardine then he will be set for a re-match against Liddell.

*********** Back to the OP. Spent Super Bowl weekend in Vegas and went to the weigh ins on Friday and chatted had the opportunity to talk to Dana White, Jens Pulver, Frank Trigg, Keth Jardine, Kenny Florian, Heath Herring, Tim Sylvia, Jeremy Horn and others. We didn't go to the fights since the only seat left were on the $800 range, so we went to Blondies in Planet Hollywod and watched the fights. It was definately on of the better UFCs I've watched lately.

[ChadTower]

Anyone want Rich Franklin's H2?

[CCM]

Lesnar to face Mark Coleman at UFC 87 in August.

[ChadTower]

Lesnar to face Mark Coleman at UFC 87 in August.

Yeah, when he announced it, I sure hadn't seen that one coming.  Coleman better find the fountain of youth fast.  He's a great similar style matchup for Lesnar, but at such an age and size disadvantage, Coleman is going to have to rely on his huge experience advantage.  One thing we do know - Coleman will bring whatever is left of his A game.

Did Kongo show a dramatic improvement or what?  The guy looked like a one trick pony a year ago.  Now Kongo looks like a legit monster without substantial weakness.  Herring looked as good as I've seen him in years, too, so all of a sudden the weak UFC HW division is looking like one of the more stacked. 

[CCM]

Herring really surprised me with his performance.  It looks like he's finally taking this stuff seriously. 

Silva is a beast.  I don't think any middleweight in the world could beat him right now.

Tanner should have kept drinking beer...

[shardian]

I assume pairing Lesnar with Coleman, they are hoping again that he can dominate a washed up fighter with name recognition. Hope it doesn't backfire on them. I really think it is a bad draw on both ends at this point.

[ChadTower]

They need Lesnar to get a win in the UFC.  They found out the hard way that while he has the raw stuff to hang with Mir he just wasn't ready - they threw him in against his weakness in a situation that was not great for Lesnar but was win-win for the UFC.  Now they're putting him in with a name that plays to Lesnar's strength - and IMO he pretty much can't lose.

Coleman sounded more like a guy looking for a paycheck than a guy looking for a fight.  That's fine - so long as we see a real effort from him.  I think we will.  The top wrestlers don't lie down for anyone the way Abbott did for Kimbo.

It was funny that even with all of that extra air time at the end they still didn't show Arlovski's fight - normally a TKO would get on the air.

EDIT:  Just noticed... the guy Arlovski knocked out was 10-0 and only 23.  Way to top tank the UFC on your way out, Arlovski.   

[odysseyroc]

Yeah, when he announced it, I sure hadn't seen that one coming.  Coleman better find the fountain of youth fast.  He's a great similar style matchup for Lesnar, but at such an age and size disadvantage, Coleman is going to have to rely on his huge experience advantage.  One thing we do know - Coleman will bring whatever is left of his A game.

Did Kongo show a dramatic improvement or what?  The guy looked like a one trick pony a year ago.  Now Kongo looks like a legit monster without substantial weakness.  Herring looked as good as I've seen him in years, too, so all of a sudden the weak UFC HW division is looking like one of the more stacked. 

Kongo's takedowns looked better, but his grappling/bjj game was beyond terrible. He got caught with the same white belt sweep something like 4 times and was clueless once his guard was passed. I'm sure he'll keep working at it and get better by time his next fight comes around.

[odysseyroc]

EDIT:  Just noticed... the guy Arlovski knocked out was 10-0 and only 23.  Way to top tank the UFC on your way out, Arlovski.   

This was win/win for the UFC. They bury Arlovski by having him fight on the undercard and also hand a loss to a very boring, unmarketable, undefeated fighter. Rumor has it that Arlovski is close to re-signing with the UFC.

[clanggedin]

EDIT:  Just noticed... the guy Arlovski knocked out was 10-0 and only 23.  Way to top tank the UFC on your way out, Arlovski.   

This was win/win for the UFC. They bury Arlovski by having him fight on the undercard and also hand a loss to a very boring, unmarketable, undefeated fighter. Rumor has it that Arlovski is close to re-signing with the UFC.

They pay Arlovski too much to have him fight guys like that. He should be fighting Kongo and Herring, Gonzaga and others.

Herring looked better than he has in a long time, but he does not compare to the upper tier of the heavyweight class. He turtled up way too much in his fight and barely eeked out a win against Kongo. What's funny is the sweep that Herring used isn't used much in the UFC for some reason.. I was surprised that he was so effective with it. I guess not many fighters let their arm get trapped while having someones back.

As for Coleman... I have not liked this man EVER. He is boring to watch and I hope Lesner puts him into retirement for good. Lesner needs to pull a Pete Willaims and kick him in the head.

[ChadTower]

They pay Arlovski too much to have him fight guys like that. He should be fighting Kongo and Herring, Gonzaga and others.

They don't pay Arlovski at all anymore.

[odysseyroc]

Herring looked better than he has in a long time, but he does not compare to the upper tier of the heavyweight class. He turtled up way too much in his fight and barely eeked out a win against Kongo. What's funny is the sweep that Herring used isn't used much in the UFC for some reason.. I was surprised that he was so effective with it. I guess not many fighters let their arm get trapped while having someones back. 

You don't see that sweep that often, because it's mostly effective against noobs. The trapping the arm is only one part of it, the second part of the sweep requires you to push your body toward your opponent and fake like you are going to try to stand up. Of course this is just to bait him into pushing you back down, that's when you use his momentum to turn him over. Most experienced grapplers don't take the bait and it's not a sweep that you can really muscle your way into.

[CCM]

I just read that Shogun blew out his acl and won't be fighting Liddell in June...

[ChadTower]

I just read that Shogun blew out his acl and won't be fighting Liddell in June...

Liddell - Silva in June!


(Anderson)

That would be sweet.

[clanggedin]

Herring looked better than he has in a long time, but he does not compare to the upper tier of the heavyweight class. He turtled up way too much in his fight and barely eeked out a win against Kongo. What's funny is the sweep that Herring used isn't used much in the UFC for some reason.. I was surprised that he was so effective with it. I guess not many fighters let their arm get trapped while having someones back. 

You don't see that sweep that often, because it's mostly effective against noobs. The trapping the arm is only one part of it, the second part of the sweep requires you to push your body toward your opponent and fake like you are going to try to stand up. Of course this is just to bait him into pushing you back down, that's when you use his momentum to turn him over. Most experienced grapplers don't take the bait and it's not a sweep that you can really muscle your way into.

I understand that technique, I was a purple belt under Pedro Sauer before he moved to Virginia from Utah. There are alot of noob techniques that people get caught in that aren't noobs to BJJ/submisison fighting. IE (Guillotine, Armbar)

[clanggedin]

I just read that Shogun blew out his acl and won't be fighting Liddell in June...

Liddell - Silva in June!


(Anderson)

That would be sweet.

They'll probably sign Kevin Randleman now to fight Chuck.

[odysseyroc]

Herring looked better than he has in a long time, but he does not compare to the upper tier of the heavyweight class. He turtled up way too much in his fight and barely eeked out a win against Kongo. What's funny is the sweep that Herring used isn't used much in the UFC for some reason.. I was surprised that he was so effective with it. I guess not many fighters let their arm get trapped while having someones back. 

You don't see that sweep that often, because it's mostly effective against noobs. The trapping the arm is only one part of it, the second part of the sweep requires you to push your body toward your opponent and fake like you are going to try to stand up. Of course this is just to bait him into pushing you back down, that's when you use his momentum to turn him over. Most experienced grapplers don't take the bait and it's not a sweep that you can really muscle your way into.

I understand that technique, I was a purple belt under Pedro Sauer before he moved to Virginia from Utah. There are alot of noob techniques that people get caught in that aren't noobs to BJJ/submisison fighting. IE (Guillotine, Armbar)

True, I guess sweat plays a big part in that too. Of course if your good enough you can get any technique to work. Even after 6 years of BJJ, Roger Machado would catch me in those stupid first week type of techs.

[clanggedin]

I just read that Shogun blew out his acl and won't be fighting Liddell in June...

Liddell - Silva in June!


(Anderson)

That would be sweet.

They'll probably sign Kevin Randleman now to fight Chuck.

It looks like it's going to be Rashad Evans.. I am worried this fight will be somewhat boring now.

[ChadTower]

You know what?  I want to see Liddell fight Evans.  That is a good fight in my eyes.

[odysseyroc]

Liddell vs Evans will probably be a quick KO for Chuck or a 3 round blanket fest for Rashad.

[ChadTower]

Evans did win 2 of his last 4 fights by KO.  One of those was a single blow KO with the opponent (Sean Salmon) being fully out for several minutes - carried off on a stretcher straight to the hospital.

The guy can finish now.

[ChadTower]

Fedor is a free agent again... I wonder if the UFC will spend the dough to not only get Fedor but to get Couture back as well.  The question, I guess, is would Couture have to fight Nogueira first?

[clanggedin]

What sucks is the Monte Cox (M-1 CEO) has been busting his butt for Fedor, but the russians have been PITA and want to run everything without any regard to Monte, so Monte is letting Fedor and his entourage go.

[ChadTower]

the russians have been PITA and want to run everything without any regard

Russians are as Russians do.

[CCM]

I haven't been following things at M-1 that closely, but according to the sherdog link Chad provided they haven't event had a single event on their own yet...   

So, given that, what exactly has Monte Cox been busting his butt at since October?

[havic626]

I miss Pride FC.  In my opinion, they may have not had the best fighters but they had the best fights.

[CCM]

Anyone want Rich Franklin's H2?

Apparently not, the auction ended with zero bids...

[shardian]

I miss Pride FC.  In my opinion, they may have not had the best fighters but they had the best fights.

I don't miss them. Their cards were like WWF Saturday Night back in the day. The Main event would be good, but the undercard was like pros Vs. Joes.

[havic626]

I miss Pride FC.  In my opinion, they may have not had the best fighters but they had the best fights.

I don't miss them. Their cards were like WWF Saturday Night back in the day. The Main event would be good, but the undercard was like pros Vs. Joes.

  you could look at it that way

[clanggedin]

I haven't been following things at M-1 that closely, but according to the sherdog link Chad provided they haven't event had a single event on their own yet...   

So, given that, what exactly has Monte Cox been busting his butt at since October?

M-1 had their first event on December 31st 2007, called Yarrenoka. It was a co-promoted with former executives from Pride FC.

Monte still manages his fighters like Matt Hughes, Tim Silvia, Jeremy Horn, Jens Pulver, Joe Riggs, Ben Rothwell, Mike Whitehead, etc...

[CCM]

Wow, Ken Shamrock needs to hang it up.  I just watched him get KO'd in the first round by Buzz Berry!

[shardian]

Wow, Ken Shamrock needs to hang it up.  I just watched him get KO'd in the first round by Buzz Berry!

If he would have won, he would have been put in a fight with his adopted brother, Frank. That would have been a neat fight.

Ken Shamrock was he man back in the original UFC. Now it is embarrassing to watch him get out there. I saw him get his head bashed in by Tito Ortiz... nuff said.

[CCM]

Wow, Ken Shamrock needs to hang it up.  I just watched him get KO'd in the first round by Buzz Berry!

If he would have won, he would have been put in a fight with his adopted brother, Frank. That would have been a neat fight.

Ken Shamrock was he man back in the original UFC. Now it is embarrassing to watch him get out there. I saw him get his head bashed in by Tito Ortiz... nuff said.

Yea, he was a beast in his day, but his day is long gone...

The announcers last night were saying that there was talk of Shamrock vs. Kimbo, if Shamrock had won last night.  Kimbo may actually kill Shamrock for real in that fight.

[clanggedin]

Wow, Ken Shamrock needs to hang it up.  I just watched him get KO'd in the first round by Buzz Berry!

If he would have won, he would have been put in a fight with his adopted brother, Frank. That would have been a neat fight.

Ken Shamrock was he man back in the original UFC. Now it is embarrassing to watch him get out there. I saw him get his head bashed in by Tito Ortiz... nuff said.

Yea, he was a beast in his day, but his day is long gone...

The announcers last night were saying that there was talk of Shamrock vs. Kimbo, if Shamrock had won last night.  Kimbo may actually kill Shamrock for real in that fight.

Ken was good when he was King of Pancrase and in the first UFCs. He started becoming washed up once they had to make a title for him (Superfight Champion) just so they could promote him because he couldn't win the tournament format... His game has not evolved like the fighters of today.  I used to really like Ken, but that was when he was KOP. Now he is a tin can.

They need to stop feeding Kimbo tin cand and give him someone who will really test him. Tank is not a test.

[shardian]

[They need to stop feeding Kimbo tin cand and give him someone who will really test him. Tank is not a test.

If Tank would have trained seriously, it could have been a good slugfest. He is deceptively strong. I would bet money he can bench more than Kimbo...at least he could a few years ago.

[ChadTower]

Tank at least used to be world class strong.  I remember seeing him bench 600lb back in the day.

[ChadTower]

M-1 had their first event on December 31st 2007, called Yarrenoka. It was a co-promoted with former executives from Pride FC.

So I looked up this event... Fedor fought a 7-2 (that's 7 foot 2, not 7 and 2) guy that had only 1 pro fight and tapped him in under 2 minutes.  I think this is the same freak Lesnar was supposed to fight but was injured in training.

What a great time with M1 Fedor had!  Those checks better have been large because he wasted a full year of his prime on those guys.

[shardian]

Tank at least used to be world class strong.  I remember seeing him bench 600lb back in the day.

Yeah, they showed him training in the intro to a UFC fight once. I was watching with my brother-in-law, who benches like 375. He was just starting to say that Tank was a fat ass and shouldn't be there when it showed tank benching an ungodly amount, then lifting freeweights that were like 150 lbs over his head - all without apparent effort. His opinion of Tank changed pretty quick.

[clanggedin]

Tank at least used to be world class strong.  I remember seeing him bench 600lb back in the day.

During Tank's stint in the UFC when he was popular he was hired as the lifting coach for the University of Utah football team. I think he only lasted 1 season with them.

Fedor has to return his $1.5 million dollar signing bonus.. It wasn't M-1 who dropped the ball on this partnership it was Fedor and his crew. I bet you they tried to line up a fighters for him, but he probably wanted tin cans so he could add more wins to his record.

Whoever gets him will not get big PPV buys unless he fights someone who is already really popular in the US like Couture. Otherwise it will be a bad investment to sign him IMO.

[ChadTower]

If they sign him they get Couture back.  That is worth more than just getting Fedor.  They can't sign him for the money he wants, of course, but looking at how much they just threw at Lesnar, they may have to pay him quite a bit.