I know that genesim is going to call me out on what he has termed my lawyer-response-style, but since I am responding to a lawyer (why I am arguing about importing things into Canada with a lawyer from Georgia is totally beyond me!), maybe he'll let it go ...Actually, if you read my response, you'll see that I agree with you on most of the pertinent issues. A [good] lawyer will attempt to resolve issues. Continuing to press on issues not at issue in the debate is not responding like a lawyer. It's called being argumentative. Also, my profession and/or location are not really relevant to this topic, are they? No need to lower expectations about your ability to "debate" on this issue - you raised some valid points, and I tried to address them.
To summarize, I think we both agree that private shippers like UPS and FedEx may not be the low-cost leaders when it comes to shipping goods across the Canadian border because of the brokerage fees associated with those shipments.
the issue is that most noobs in this hobby are about as aware of the issue as they are about SlikStik's long-standing failure to deliver (sound familiar ?), so it is up to the old farts to tell them. And every time this happens, there are some new folks who stand up and say it isn't so or get upset because they had good dealings with SlikStik or UPS or whomever. And so we have to continue to tell the same bloody story each time so that people avoid getting charged more than they should (or could), even though some people hate to see companies "dragged through the mud".Again, I agree that everyone should be aware of the shipping charges up-front. In fact, I think I made that point several times, though you seemed to miss it. The problem is that the carrier gets blamed for not informing the customer of additional service fees (fully known to the shipper) until the goods arrive at the customer's door. Slikstik (or any other retailer or shipper) has the obligation to inform the customer. The carriers' fees are generally fixed (see the link to UPS's website below, for example), so the costs are pretty easy to figure out, if you have the declared value of the goods, and the shipper knows how to properly prepare a shipment. The real message to prospective customers in Canada seeking shipments from the US is to
ask the retailer how they handle customs brokerage before you order the goods -- regardless of which carrier is being used. Some retailers actually pre-pay customs brokerage fees (negotiating better rates based on volume), building those costs into shipping & handling charges. The point is, no one is surprised. If this was the same point you were trying to make (as hard as it was to discern from the "lawyer-response-style"), it was a good one.
Canada Post doesn't pickup in the USA ... you have this nifty little organization called the USPS and I think they have a drop box or two.
Tracking can be sometimes be interesting crossing the border, but I have never had a problem. Other issues would be specifically related to shipping costs, not brokerage costs, so are off-target (unless you, as an insider, are telling us that UPS is subsidizing those services via excessive brokerage fees, instead of delivery fees ...).Now, you're actually getting into an interesting issue (see more below). Of course I was not insinuating that UPS, FedEx, or other private carriers subsidize their shipping costs via "excessive" brokerage fees. The point I was making was that, while the overall cost of shipping (including shipping and brokerage) to Canada might be slightly higher with a private carrier, you are receiving a premium service, and some customers (perhaps those that have ever tried to file a damage claim, track a package, or speak to a customer service representative at the USPS) might appreciate that service. As we've already established, if cost is the sole, determining factor, a private carrier is probably not the way to go from US to Canada.
Agreed about choice, but comparing Canada Post's services in the USA is kinda silly, isn't it -- after all, you SEND the packages via USPS and they are DELIVERED via CP. The same points hold true for the USPS. Mail carriers simply do not provide the same level of service as the private delivery companies. Again, if cost is the ONLY factor, then mail's your best bet.
The issue of competition is specifically WHY old folks like me need to tell the new kids how to move stuff across borders in a manner that is favourable to them. UPS is absolutely dead last on the list of carriers for most Canadian arcade enthusiasts looking to get items from the USA. It may be an opinion, but it is one that is widely shared here ... I, and others (like the people you called out and a bunch of others I know who lurk), actually buy stuff in the USA and get it shipped to Canada. In fact, there are some collectors that I can think of who won't order stuff from the ONLY legitimate supplier in the world because that supplier will only ship with UPS.I guess it all depends on how you define "favourable." I take your definition to mean cheapest, which is certainly one way of looking at things. What I'm saying is that it's not the only way, and perhaps as the self-proclaimed "old fart," it might make sense for you to present all options, especially because some customers might appreciate the level of service the private carriers offer, especially if something goes wrong with the shipment of a long-awaited control panel. There may also be size and weight restrictions the mail carriers have that the private shipping companies do not. I'm guessing there's a reason that the company you referred to only ships with a company like UPS, and I'm sure that cost is not the only factor there.
At some point you seem to have interpreted this discussion into an attack on private delivery companies -- it never was -- it is a completely valid criticism of UPS, most of which you have countered with arguments about services that are already covered in the shipping costs and are distinct from the brokerage fees we are talking about. Actually, it was not your post that triggered my initial response - I believe it was the post referring to "Legal Theft" and then the recent post referring to UPS as "scammy, crooked, horrible." Perhaps I misinterpreted the allegations of thievery or "scammy" behavior as attacks. Silly me.
You don't really expect to use shipment tracking as a defense of brokerage fees, do you ?And as I said before, I did not use shipment tracking as a defense of brokerage fees, nor do I intend to now (though to some shippers/consignees, detailed tracking information is EVERYTHING, so a cavalier dismissal of it (not to mention the other services you omitted) is probably not warranted). The private shippers have higher brokerage fees. No secret there. UPS's may be the highest - I do not know. However, I do suspect that those fees have a rational relationship to their costs. Why? Because of FIERCE competition within the shipping industry. UPS and FedEx are private companies that operate to make a profit. In order to do so, they must provide a service that customers want, at a price that customers will pay. If entities like UPS set their rates too high, competitors like FedEx will take market share, and vice versa, for similar services. The funny thing is that the mail carriers (USPS, Canada Post, etc. (and even DHL to a certain extent -- DHL is owned by Deutche Post, the German mail carrier)) don't have to play by the same rules.
Why? Because they own MONOPOLIES that they use to subsidize their other operations. Both the USPS and CP own a monopoly on First Class mail. No other carrier can compete in this space (though a little known fact is that the private carriers are contracted to carry certain mail for the USPS because they can't handle it all). Even though the USPS is quasi-private, it does NOT have to make a profit, and, to the best of my knowledge, it does not. To raise revenue, they do not have to increase service or offer more competitive products, they just have to increase the price of postage, of which only they can carry.
I realize this is a little [ok, a lot] off-topic, but I thought the armchair-lawyer in you (and perhaps, casual reader) would appreciate a little more factual background relating to subsidies in the shipping industry (as you raised the issue). I am sure that private companies like FedEx and UPS would LOVE to compete with the mail carriers on a level playing field in which the mail carriers had to provide the same services and make a profit as well. I'm guessing that the shipping fees or brokerage fees that the private carriers charge would not look so "excessive" if that was the case.
To Zakk, carriers like UPS (as you allege) do not simply "make up" their brokerage rates and fees (shipping rates are based on zone/location, but brokerage fees are fixed). They are clearly identified in their rate sheets, tariffs, and on their websites. See, again, for example:
http://www.ups.com/content/ca/en/shipping/cost/zones/customs_clearance.htmlIn your example, if the part was a $10 part,
and was properly declared as such by the shipper (remember: the carrier has no idea what the value of the shipment is, and relies on what the shipper declares), there should have been no brokerage fee, according to UPS. If the declared value was mistakenly declared as $25, then the brokerage fee, again according to UPS, should only have been $7. I have no idea what kind of value the shipper declared on this anecdotal package, nor do I know if there were exceptions with this shipment (again, resulting from incorrect or incomplete information from the shipper) that caused additional delays or fees to be assessed. Sounds to me like the shipment was improperly prepared/declared.
Finally, to Loafmeister, the issue is the same. Whoever shipped you the "free" replacement part probably declared a "non-free" value for that shipment. Again, UPS has no idea about the contents of the shipments it is carrying -- it is just relying on the value that the shipper provides, which is all it can do. Not that I'm trying to be a UPS zealot, but I still don't understand how the private carrier is at fault in this situation. I am in total agreement with you that you have not been made whole -- I just think it is the SHIPPER that is responsible for all costs you incur (including any private brokerage fees) resulting from replacement of a warrantied part.
Sorry to have taken the thread off-topic, and as requested, I will "let it go."
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Topic: Foreign shipping brokerage costs and UPS - (Was: Re: Slik Stik - Any Word) (Read 3873 times)
