Rethinking the 4-player control panel...

[vidmouse]

I'm currently thinking of making another CP box and adding
controls for P3 and P4.  I don't play Smash TV all that much
so the angled joy's aren't that much of a problem for me
(and I can still do it single-player w/ P1/P2 joys)

My cab is about 27" wide and I didn't want to make a giant "wing".
At first I was going to make some attachable modules but
the more I designed it out, it seemed clumsy and the potential
for breakage was high.  Then I thought about just adding gamepads
via USB -- what I'm doing now -- but my kids both want to play on
the actual arcade controls with me vs using a gamepad (hey who
can blame them)

Open for comments/critiques...  You can also see pics of my cab
as-is on my site for comparison to my 2p panel

http://www.freewebs.com/vidmouse/Autobot%20Layout.jpg

[Lilwolf]

I had angled joysticks for my player 3 and 4 years ago.  I had a party with a bunch of kids at it (5-9 or so) and EVERY kid had a problem using them.  They where just walking around in walls. 

I never had a big problem with them, but its something to consider.

I would get a scrap piece of wood (like those 4 buck press board 4x8's) and mount the joysticks and a few buttons each and try it out for a few days.  And make sure to let others try it out.  If your using quick disconnects it shouldn't take all that much time to do it and move them over later.

good luck!

[DaveMMR]

Again, you don't have to angle the joysticks for space concerns.  The outer controls don't usually have complex controls, so place the buttons above, below, etc. the joystick (see: TMNT, Simpsons, Gauntlet, etc).

I also say that because I'm not a fan of the shape of your CP.  Even if it does look like Optimus Prime. 

Everything else looks fine though. 

[unclet]

I have a 4-player control panel and opted to have a wider control panel to allow P3/P4 joysticks to be mounted straight rather than at an angle.    I am not a big fan of angled joysticks.

Now, if you are absolutely sure you want angled P3/P4 joysticks and the width of the control panel has been decided for sure then I would say your design is pretty much the best you can do.

[vidmouse]

The outer controls don't usually have complex controls, so place the buttons above, below, etc. the joystick (see: TMNT, Simpsons, Gauntlet, etc).

Y'know, that's good, I hadn't thought to look at what the games I wanted to emulate actually did... the big one I can think of is D&D SoM... 4 buttons per player, not too far off from where I'm at.  Anyone know the width of that CP?  (so I can add the appropriate inches to include my trackball as well)

Not sure if I'll change, but worth another jpg drawing to
flesh it out...

Lilwolf thanx for the comments about the kids too, that helps.
I wonder why angled is such a problem for them.  Will try to
see if I can cardboard it out after the holidays and see.  Right now
I need my 2P cab playable over the holidays and don't have
as much time as I thought I did when I started this post...

[leapinlew]

What you should do is make a giant autobot head shaped control panel

[kelemvor]

Y'know, that's good, I hadn't thought to look at what the games I wanted to emulate actually did... the big one I can think of is D&D SoM... 4 buttons per player, not too far off from where I'm at.  Anyone know the width of that CP?  (so I can add the appropriate inches to include my trackball as well)

Don't know but it looks HUGE on this pic: (second one down)
http://www.klov.com/game_detail.php?game_id=7667

[unclet]

If you keep the same width of your control panel but decide "not" to angle the joysticks then are the players1/3 and players 2/4 going to bump shoulders/elbows while playing games?

I thought you angled player3/4 joysticks to provide space for the players .....

[leapinlew]

If you keep the same width of your control panel but decide "not" to angle the joysticks then are the players1/3 and players 2/4 going to bump shoulders/elbows while playing games?

I thought you angled player3/4 joysticks to provide space for the players .....

To hell with player 3 and 4. They are the outcasts in video games anyhow. When you get the occasional 4 player game - they'll make room.

[kelemvor]

I think giving the occasional elbow nudge inspires more competition in the game and brings the whole level of play higher.  heh heh.  But for as often as I actually have 3 other people to play with, I'm not too concerned about it.

[Sir Auros]

I prefer angled joysticks, myself. Especially since I don't play twin-stick shooters on my cabinet. I think part of it depends on how wide your CP is, and having a wider CP makes having angled P3 & 4 controls workable.

[DeLuSioNal29]

Here's mine.   It's 48" across, but there is also a mini quad available which is only 36" across and may work for you if you take some joysticks out (I have dual joys for Smash TV for 2 player co-op games).  I got mine at www.arcadesrfun.com.

They sell DIY kit's and I believe the mini quad is $179.  And he can make a CUSTOM layout for no charge.

Good Luck!

~ DeLuSioNaL

[leapinlew]

I think, if your gonna have angled joystick your artwork needs to reflect which way up is. Also, there should also be a name/number of the person to call to complain to when they can't figure out which way is up.

[DaveMMR]

It's a misconception that you need to stand shoulder-to-shoulder.  As I said, most 4-player games are simple affairs, so the outer players can stand to the side anywhere and still work the joystick intuitively if "up" is towards monitor.

Angling joysticks, as I mentioned before, is forcing someone to stand in a precise spot since the controls are relative to them. 

[mrserv0n]

delusion, your buttons on that CP look annoyingly to far spaced.

[vidmouse]

Delusions link to the 4p mini quad was interesting... it's actually similar to my angled design except the panel is 1.75" deeper.  I tried it out w/ my drawing program and the only advantage I see over what I have is that it gets the players a little further from the screen, maybe improving viewing angle.

I gave this some more thought last night and am back to the modular idea once again... I abandoned it for awhile b/c I wasn't sure how to attach the module "wings" but last night I thought about maybe just using some large bolts and wing nuts, shoot through the side of the CP boxes and use the wing nuts to hand-tighten in whenever I need the 4p capability.  The downside... my pinball buttons get covered up by the wing modules but these can be taken down.

Any other suggestions on how to attach/detach easily?

[arzoo]

I've never had a problem playing with angled controls on P3/P4 - up is forward, down is backward, etc. It's all relative to the player position, not the monitor position. The reason for angling players 3 and 4 is because that's the natural position the player will take to face the screen. Unless you have a wide-screen monitor, players 3 and 4 will stand to the left and right of the screen - if they were to face forward, they wouldn't be looking directly at the screen. Anyway, my 2 cents. Vidmouse - I'd go back to your original design.

[Sir Auros]

With that modular design, think about the 40 wire connections you'll have to make every time you want to hook those up. Try your original with a cardboard mockup and some friends and see if angled will work for you.

[vidmouse]

1 joystick = 4 connections
6 buttons = 6 connections
1 ground, daisy chained

Total 11 connections per module.  The P1 and P2 modules
wouldn't have to be unhooked at all.

The plan was to use two 6-pin block connectors for
each module.

unless I'm missing something...?

[Sir Auros]

I didn't see where you mentioned that you were going to do that. I was counting the connections for the grounds to the switches, too.

[DeLuSioNal29]

delusional, your buttons on that CP look annoyingly to far spaced.

Actually they are not.  What I showed was a "virtual mock-up" that I created by memory.  The dimensions of the panel itself are correct by the scaling of the buttons is a bit off, which makes them appear far apart.  I had created it originally to get the joystick and button color scheme.

I only posted it to show what a super quad looks like, in relation to the topic.

[unclet]

I like the 'wings" idea but I would not use bolts and such to attach them since that technique will get old real quick and you probably will end up keeping the wings on all the time or never using them.  Kids would find it a pain to connect them this way as well.

Anyway, check out the picture I attached to see how I would attach the wings.   It shows metal pieces which can slide into each other to give a nice secure attachment.  The wing should not move around at all and should be very secure.  These metal attachments are very strong and thus will not bend if someone "plays hard".

For attachment you slide the "wing" down in place on the side of the control panel so both metal pieces slide within each other.    To remove the wing, you simply lift the wing "up".

I know these metal attachment things exist but have no idea what they are called.  I think they are normally used to hang heavy stuff flush against a wall.


** My picture makes it seem like the metal bracket attachments are simply 90 degree angle brackets (like the ones used to attach sides of an arcade cabinet together).   This is "not" what I mean for you to use.   I just used that in the drawing to get my point across.

[unclet]

This is something which is similar to what I am referencing, although when I saw them they were not used for mounting LCD monitors to a wall ...... but it could work:

http://catalogs.infocommiq.com/AVCat/CTL1642/index.cfm/mlc_id/1709/pin_id/1642/NOTRACK/1/prodid/338253/AlphaListVCat_ID/132324.htm


The metal bracket hardware I am referring to are quite thin and allow two objects to be slid together for a secure hold while not having a large gap between the two objects once mounted together.

[kelemvor]

I like the 'wings" idea but I would not use bolts and such to attach them since that technique will get old real quick and you probably will end up keeping the wings on all the time or never using them.  Kids would find it a pain to connect them this way as well.

Anyway, check out the picture I attached to see how I would attach the wings.   It shows metal pieces which can slide into each other to give a nice secure attachment.  The wing should not move around at all and should be very secure.  These metal attachments are very strong and thus will not bend if someone "plays hard".

For attachment you slide the "wing" down in place on the side of the control panel so both metal pieces slide within each other.    To remove the wing, you simply lift the wing "up".

I know these metal attachment things exist but have no idea what they are called.  I think they are normally used to hang heavy stuff flush against a wall.


** My picture makes it seem like the metal bracket attachments are simply 90 degree angle brackets (like the ones used to attach sides of an arcade cabinet together).   This is "not" what I mean for you to use.   I just used that in the drawing to get my point across.

Exactly what I was thinking too.  Need something that can just slide down into place and then come back off without needing to manually screw on nuts or anything.

Probably have to take a trip to Lowes or Home Depot and see what I can find.  When I get that far anyway...

[vidmouse]

Actually I did think of this.  They're called flush mount hangers
and I have a couple that look like this


but bigger (about 2.5") from ACE hardware.

Two things I noticed from using some on a shelf in my son's room:
1)  When locking the pieces together, you have to be RIGHT on,
     it's not THAT easy to put together  (a VERY snug fit)
2)  The screws that hold each separate piece to wood are
      pretty tiny, maybe only 1/4 to 1/2" ?  I'm worried that even
     if it's strong enough to hold the modules, it may tear on play.

Hence my brainstorm on the bolt/wing-nut idea.  Unclet has
some good points though, it's making me waffle back to maybe
the Autobot design, maybe a bit deeper to get better visibility.

I'm having a buddy over tomorrow to help me with spacing, will
get a better idea then.

[unclet]

Well dont use the tiny "screws" ..... I always replace stuff like that with toggle bolts or regular bolts/nuts.   Much better way of securing stuff to a wall and takes away the worry of it being ripped off. 

I would believe if you used those two brackets in your post and they were secured with toggle bolts then you have nothing to fear.    Having them be a "snug" fit might be a nuisance, but perhaps you could simply grnd down one side of those brackets a bit to allow them to go into each other better.    Or go find some cheap different kind ones at the hardware store which go together easily.

I am going hunting tomorrow at the hardware store ..... I need something for my jukebox cabinet build but have no idea whether I will find something like I am thinking .......  but hunting in a hardware store is fun !!!

[Zeno]

I picked up a D&D: SOM cabinet a few months ago.

The machine looks like it's about to take off and fly away, but I like the layout of the CP.

Take a look...

[vidmouse]

Thanks, looks cool.

I put my construction plans on hold until after family and friends all
leave for the holiday.  Today's (24th) the day that everyone and their
so-and-so is coming over.  Just got the turkey thawed and started
to marinate this morning, and also started a BIG crockpot of chili.

My son and I defeated Magneto in  X-Men 4player for the first time
together this morning (he got up early and wanted to give it a go).
That really set the tone for a great day so far.

I also mucked around with cfg files and got mine working for my
two gamepads so that when they're hooked up, they act as
P3 and P4.  It works great IF I can get my OS to recognize both
at the same time (seems to require a periodic reboot, not sure why)


Merry Christmas!