Zector ZVG

[FrizzleFried]

So...has anyone here built a Vector MAME cabinet with the Zector ZVG?  If so,  can you please post your experiences with it...good...bad...ugly...

I am very much considering making one (or two...gotta have a B&W and Color one!)...

[ChadTower]

I haven't built one but I have played one... it's quite good.  Does the job well.  Not inexpensive but if you want the true vectormame you have to use the ZVG.

If you haven't, take a look at that emulator that was just put forth in the software section.  I can't get it to work with my video cards but the commentary from those who did says it looks great.

[FrizzleFried]

I haven't built one but I have played one... it's quite good.  Does the job well.  Not inexpensive but if you want the true vectormame you have to use the ZVG.

If you haven't, take a look at that emulator that was just put forth in the software section.  I can't get it to work with my video cards but the commentary from those who did says it looks great.

Naw...if I am going to do a Vector MAME it's going to be right.  There is NOTHING that can emulate the true vector experience....well,  the true B&W vector experience....color vectors are lower resolution (at least the WG6100 is) and isn't quite as impressive as the hi-res B&W's....

But if I do it it would come down to which monitor I could obtain,  B&W or color....

[MaximRecoil]

So...has anyone here built a Vector MAME cabinet with the Zector ZVG?  If so,  can you please post your experiences with it...good...bad...ugly...

I am very much considering making one (or two...gotta have a B&W and Color one!)...

Why would you need two? If you had a color vector monitor, can't it display white vectors as well as color?

[shardian]

Exactly how many B&W vector games do you really want to play on a regular basis other than Asteroids and Omega Race?

Besides, alot of single gun vectors used overlays. The asteroids of a local guy I know has a green overlay. using just the green gun of a color monitor would do the same thing.

[FrizzleFried]

Why would you need two? If you had a color vector monitor, can't it display white vectors as well as color?

B&W Vector Monitors are a much higher resolution monitor.  B&W games on a color vector monitor don't look NEARLY as good as B&W games on a B&W monitor.

[shardian]

Is it really resolution based, or that the phoshors of a B&W are solely dedicated to one gun?

[ChadTower]

Given how simple the wireframes are the resolution really doesn't matter all that much, to be honest, and doesn't apply in nearly the same way on a vector monitor.  Resolution is the wrong measurement to be using here.

[Paladin]

Having seen Tempest running on an ampliphone, I have to disagree.  There's a clear difference between the two monitors running on the same game hardware.

[ChadTower]

I have a near mint Tempest in my basement.   

[FrizzleFried]

Having seen Tempest running on an ampliphone, I have to disagree.  There's a clear difference between the two monitors running on the same game hardware.

...If I was able to acquire an Amplifone I'd stick with a single cabinet as it is a higher resolution than the WG6100.  Frankly,  after having my Asteroids running for a while,  I was quite disappointed in the WG6100 output when I got it running.  Don't get me wrong,  I love my Star Wars,  but there is a VERY VERY distinct difference in the output of the WG vs the WG I have in the asteroids.  You can see the pixels of the Color WG,  not so (without REALLY REALLY looking hard) with the B&W WG.

[ChadTower]

I'm not saying I disagree with what you're saying - some monitors are better than others.  I do think you're splitting hairs that really don't need to be split.  The difference, IMO, isn't big enough to be a driving factor in how you build this cabinet.  Use whatever you can get that has a good HV and little burn-in.

[Cakemeister]

The problem with VectorMame and the Zektor is the overlays. I had the opportunity to play a Zektor cab this past weekend and it looked great. But the screen had the Star Castle overlay on it. So Star Castle looked perfect but Armor Attack did not.

I think a good vector emulator is the way to go. I think it's actually pretty hard to get Asteroids looking like the real Asteroids did.

[FrizzleFried]

I'm not saying I disagree with what you're saying - some monitors are better than others.  I do think you're splitting hairs that really don't need to be split.  The difference, IMO, isn't big enough to be a driving factor in how you build this cabinet.  Use whatever you can get that has a good HV and little burn-in.

Well,  the 6100 doesn't look too much better than a PC monitor running vectors (IMHO) where as the Asterods monitor creates a "glowing" effect that just can't be reproduced on a raster monitor.  I'd likely do a B&W VectorMAME unless I came across an Amplifone (ha! yah right!).

[ahofle]

The problem with VectorMame and the Zektor is the overlays. I had the opportunity to play a Zektor cab this past weekend and it looked great. But the screen had the Star Castle overlay on it. So Star Castle looked perfect but Armor Attack did not.

I played that same machine last weekend. 
I actually spoke with the owner of it and suggested that he come up with some type of removable overlay system like the vectrex.  Then it would be just about perfect.  I still can't believe how nicely that machine looked and played. 

[FrizzleFried]

The problem with VectorMame and the Zektor is the overlays. I had the opportunity to play a Zektor cab this past weekend and it looked great. But the screen had the Star Castle overlay on it. So Star Castle looked perfect but Armor Attack did not.

I think a good vector emulator is the way to go. I think it's actually pretty hard to get Asteroids looking like the real Asteroids did.

I wonder if it'd be possible to come up with re-stickable overlays...but likely i'd have to do with no overlay at all...

[FrizzleFried]

The problem with VectorMame and the Zektor is the overlays. I had the opportunity to play a Zektor cab this past weekend and it looked great. But the screen had the Star Castle overlay on it. So Star Castle looked perfect but Armor Attack did not.

I played that same machine last weekend. 
I actually spoke with the owner of it and suggested that he come up with some type of removable overlay system like the vectrex.  Then it would be just about perfect.  I still can't believe how nicely that machine looked and played. 

I assume it was a B&W monitor?  Do you know which?

The ZVG uses DOSMAME (which sucks, but oh well)...and I hear there is a problem getting most sound cards to work with it.  Anyone know what sound cards do work?

[MinerAl]

Get a Vectrex

I can, with nothing but logic (and very little actual knowledge) to back me up, see how a B/W vector monitor could produce a straighter brighter white line than an RGB vector monitor.

If the RGB needs to light up a red a blue and a green phosphor dot to make one "white dot," that white dot would be bigger than the single white dot lit up on the B/W monitor.  Bigger dots make blurrier/jaggier lines.  And if the bigger dots on the RGB are only putting out the same light as the smaller ones on the B/W, the line would also be brighter on the B/W.

Again, I have no practical knowledge of the inner workings of vector monitors, so I could be totally wrong.

[FrizzleFried]

Get a Vectrex

I can, with nothing but logic (and very little actual knowledge) to back me up, see how a B/W vector monitor could produce a straighter brighter white line than an RGB vector monitor.

If the RGB needs to light up a red a blue and a green phosphor dot to make one "white dot," that white dot would be bigger than the single white dot lit up on the B/W monitor.  Bigger dots make blurrier/jaggier lines.  And if the bigger dots are only putting out the same light as the smaller ones, the line would also be brighter.

Again, I have no practical knowledge of the inner workings of vector monitors, so I could be totally wrong.

Even blue, red,  ang green lines are noticeably inferior looking than the white lines on a B&W vector.

[ChadTower]

Inferior lines.   

You're splitting hairs on a monitor that is better than that used in 90% of the original vector cabs.  Why go to all that trouble?  The jaggy color games were jaggy to start with.

[ahofle]

I assume it was a B&W monitor?  Do you know which?

Yeah B&W and it looked beautiful.  I think it was the same monitor that was in the original Armor Attack which he converted (whatever that monitor is) but I'm not positive.

[ahofle]

Well,  the 6100 doesn't look too much better than a PC monitor running vectors (IMHO) where as the Asterods monitor creates a "glowing" effect that just can't be reproduced on a raster monitor.

Sure it can.  Try cranking the contrast to extreme levels.  You'll be surprised how close you can get it.

I don't think it looks anything even close to an original asteroids.  Also, cranking the contrast affects everything whereas the original game only had glowing shots.

[Matthew Fisher]

I have a 6100-based vectormame, a Tempest, and an Asteroids, and here is my take: 

I am perfectly satisfied with the 6100, but that is mostly because my favorite games are the color vectors.  Are they as sharp or bright as the vectors on the Asteroids?  No, but they still look tons better than any CRT, LCD, etc., in my opinion.  The color games, most of them, anyway, were designed for the lower-rez color monitors and so presumably didn't include detail that would be lost.  In some of the b/w games, the objects are small enough to look a little funky on a 6100 (e.g., Solar Quest).  I do, however, like having the simulated overlays for the B/W games, although there's really no way to recreate the stuff in Warrior, Armor Attack, etc., where the overlays had graphics in addition to color (Yeah, I know Warrior didn't technically have an "overlay," but you know what I mean).  Yeah, Asteroids on a 6100 looks like  compared to the real thing, but that's why you get the real thing...     Sure, I've thought about building a dedicated b/w vectormame, but over time I found that I just don't play the b/w games enough and like to have "overlays" on the ones I do play.  Just my 2 cents...

As FF recognizes, however, using an Amplifone would probably be the best overall solution, and I will do that as soon as I get around to fixing the one sitting on my bench, if I can...   

I could be wrong, FF, but you seem to be leaning toward a b/w, as your preferences seem a little different than mine.  And although I wouldn't be, you seem perfectly happy playing the color games on a PC monitor. Whichever way you go, you won't be sorry, but then, since you already have some vectors, you already know that.     The good news is that a b/w monitor should be a heck of a lot cheaper and more reliable to boot.  I'd be interested in hearing about any practical overlay system you came up with. 
Yeah, the sound can be a problem.  I messed with it for quite a while before getting a PCI soundcard to work in DOS, and I'm still not sure what I did.  I tried and tried, and suddenly I had sound and haven't touched any of the setup files since.  I know my card is a SB, but I can't remeber the model number off the top of my head.  Here's some general info, though:

http://www.mameworld.net/dosmame/setup.php

[FrizzleFried]

Thank you Matthew...If I take this project on I have a feeling it will be based around whatever vector monitor I can get my grubby little hands on be it a B&W or color...

[brandon]

not to side track this thread.. BUT.. what is the closest you can get with a regular raster monitor? high resolution, anti aliasing, Flicker..none of that is close..  what about the glow effect?   Its crazy that we can have PC games running at 2048x1536 with all these crazy 3D post processing effects like HDR, depth of field etc..  but Mame doesnt even TRY to simulate the glow of a B&W vector monitor with some sort of RGB effect... or did I miss something?

[Sidgoop]

Was that Vector MAME at the Houston Expo?  If so, I know the guy who did it.  I asked him about a color monitor when he was building it, and he said that he originally tried the one he had in his Tempest, and said it looked crappy.  Even   in B&W, it's a great playing machine.

[FrizzleFried]

MAME isn't about emulating the LOOK of a vector monitor but rather emulating the hardware that PUSHES he vector monitor...

[ahofle]

not to side track this thread.. BUT.. what is the closest you can get with a regular raster monitor? high resolution, anti aliasing, Flicker..none of that is close..  what about the glow effect?   Its crazy that we can have PC games running at 2048x1536 with all these crazy 3D post processing effects like HDR, depth of field etc..  but Mame doesnt even TRY to simulate the glow of a B&W vector monitor with some sort of RGB effect... or did I miss something?

It has nothing to do with MAME, and everything to do with the type of monitor.  The shots in asteroids are just a point.  A point on a raster monitor is simply not as bright as one on an asteroids/vector monitor.

Was that Vector MAME at the Houston Expo?  If so, I know the guy who did it.  I asked him about a color monitor when he was building it, and he said that he originally tried the one he had in his Tempest, and said it looked crappy.  Even   in B&W, it's a great playing machine.

Yep that's the one.  He was a really nice guy and was happy to show everything about the cabinet.

[brandon]

I know it has nothing to do with Mame.. but Mame has RGB effects for scanlines and such.. why not a sort of bloom effect for vector games?   maybe a virtual electron gun and some virtual phosphorus

[brandon]

This is something quick and dirty in Paint Shop.. but you get the idea.. sure, its not a vector monitor.. but it would be nice to have an option for an effect like this.. IMO at least

[Level42]

I was wondering if the B/W vector tubes actually HAD (have) "pixels". Isn''t it so that the entire screen is simply covered with phosphor ? I don't see the need for pixels, or points on a B/W vector. I think an oscilloscope tube doesn't have pixels either. This is the big difference with color vectors, where each gun has to hit the correct part of a pixel to get the right color.

The Amplifone is a lovely color vector however, the mid-res really softens the jaggy's.......

[NoOne=NBA=]

The overlays wouldn't be hard to implement at all if you used .063 acrylic with translucent art stuck to it.
The .063 would be thin enough that you could bend it, and slip it into a groove just in front of your main glass.
If the monitor were tilted back, like a Pacman machine, gravity would hold the overlay in place.

The only thing missing would be the floated graphics of an Asteroid Deluxe, or Omega Race.

[XtraSmiley]

I've got two ZVG waiting for a color and b/w vectorMAME projects I've been waiting to do for like 2 years.  I really, really, really wish someone would just get the ZVG to work with Windows, but oh well.

I also have a SD and Gravitar and can say that the monitor CAN NOT be replicated on MAME.  The b/w ones are even worse, so the only solution is two color vmames (vertical and horizontal) using ampliphone monitors and a b/w vmame!

[brandon]

ignore the jaggies.. for some reason the snaps only save in 640x480

[Kremmit]

... the only solution is two color vmames (vertical and horizontal) using ampliphone monitors and a b/w vmame!

..or one 25" Ampliphone mounted horizontally.

[ahofle]

ignore the jaggies.. for some reason the snaps only save in 640x480

That's nice, but still not anywhere close to an actual machine.  Have you played an original Asteroids recently?  Once you know what to look for, you will see why it's impossible to replicate on a raster monitor.  It really sucks that all of this obsolete display technology cannot be accurately reproduced somehow on today's displays.   

[XtraSmiley]

... the only solution is two color vmames (vertical and horizontal) using ampliphone monitors and a b/w vmame!

..or one 25" Ampliphone mounted horizontally.

well, good call, until you consider that two 25" Ampliphone's, one hori, one vert, would be the BEST set up!!!!!

[brandon]

ignore the jaggies.. for some reason the snaps only save in 640x480

That's nice, but still not anywhere close to an actual machine.  Have you played an original Asteroids recently?  Once you know what to look for, you will see why it's impossible to replicate on a raster monitor.  It really sucks that all of this obsolete display technology cannot be accurately reproduced somehow on today's displays.  

yeah.. I have seen the really thing.. on videos and I agree it does suck.. I know it can't be replicated BUT it could be done better than is has been.. but I guess the MameDEVs havent bothered because they know that those who actually care wouldnt be satisfied with a simulation

[ahofle]

yeah.. I have seen the really thing.. on videos and I agree it does suck.. I know it can't be replicated BUT it could be done better than is has been.. but I guess the MameDEVs havent bothered because they know that those who actually care wouldnt be satisfied with a simulation

MAME doesn't but there is a new emulator that attempts to do what you're suggesting:
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=73009.0