Politics and Religion access - opt in, opt out, or regular access?

[saint]

So P&R has been hidden for a while as an "Opt-In" status, and now I've got it visible so you can see what's going on but can't participate without opting in. How should we leave it now?

[tommy]

Keep me blocked from even seeing it. With me not having access and being able to read something in there my PC might end up finding it's way out into the street. 

If i wanted access to that section i would have asked, so don't tempt me by allowing me to see that garbage.

[bfauska]

In the other thread there was some concern that the P&R section would wither away and die if nobody saw it by default.  I think that if it were available until someone was either banned from it or opts out then people who enjoy reading it and behave have the opportunity to find it and participate.

[patrickl]

I didn't really understand why it was closed to begin with.

I would like if people who are not native to BYOAC are not allowed to get in (ie they need something like a 1000 posts before being allowed in) other than that I don't see why it needs to be blocked so I voted regular access.

If people insist on not seeing it then opt-out sounds like the best option.

[bfauska]

1000 seems a bit high, no? 

Pat, you have about 50% of your total posts (2500) in P&R.  If you had needed 1000 other posts before you could start there your experience of this forum would have been totally different.  Why not just allow people who are registered to see it and if they abuse it or misbehave then take it away from them?

On a side note, when looking at Pat's statistics, I noticed that the numbers don't add up.  Do posts in threads that get moved from one forum to another count in both? The numbers of posts per forum greatly outweighs the total post count. And I think that the percentage of posts per forum statistic is off by 1 decimal point.  If you add them all up it should add up to 100, but it adds up to about 10.

[patrickl]

1000 seems a bit high, no? 

Lol, ah well something high. Not like 15 or so. Last time someone just posted 15 nonsensical posts and got through right away. IIRC the posts were even in EE so that protection was really almost nonexistent.

Pat, you have about 50% of your total posts (2500) in P&R.  If you had needed 1000 other posts before you could start there your experience of this forum would have been totally different.

I'm pretty sure I had well over 1500 posts before I entered in P&R.

Why not just allow people who are registered to see it and if they abuse it or misbehave then take it away from them?

Cause then the damage is already done. It's annoying when people who have no affiliation with arcade building come in and start behaving badly. They don't care if they get banned or if they alienate people.

On a side note, when looking at Pat's statistics, I noticed that the numbers don't add up.

Strange indeed. Maybe because some posts don't count? I thought EE posts didn't count, but that's not enough. Maybe P&R posts don't count?

[shmokes]

I voted open, but at the very least don't hide it.

My typically long-winded thoughts on the subject are in the other PnR access thread here.

[AtomSmasher]

Is it possible to make it so everyone can see the the title of the forum, so they know it exists, but when they click on the link to the forum it says you have to ask for permission from an admin to see it?  Or maybe they can only see one thread that is dedicated to "opting in."  That way newcomers will know the forum exists, but no one can see the contents unless they opt in.

And before you make up your mind on what to do, you should look back and see what the exact reasons were that convinced you to close it in the first place.  I'm sure we all know Santayana's famous quote about remembering the past   

[shardian]

I think opting out is a good compromise.

[ChadTower]

I think opting out is a good compromise.

Ditto.  Especially with the big election coming up.

The whole "just don't click in there" doesn't account for those of us who use means other than the main page for getting thread listings.

[Cakemeister]

Opt in, 2nd choice opt out.

[XyloSesame]

The whole "just don't click in there" doesn't account for those of us who use means other than the main page for getting thread listings.

Good point. Vote changed...

[WunderCade]

Just for my own clarification...

Opting out is for persons who can't resist the allure of P'n'R, but don't like it so they don't want the temptation?

Hmmm....sort of like fat people wanting the donut shop out of sight.

I think I'm voting for "Grow a spine"

[tommy]

No, for fat people who don't want a donut up their ass.

[ChadTower]

The whole "just don't click in there" doesn't account for those of us who use means other than the main page for getting thread listings.

Good point. Vote changed...

Hey wow!  I convinced someone to change a vote!   

[WunderCade]

No, for fat people who don't want a donut up their ass.

Sorry Tommy, I just don't see how having "Politics and Religion" among 21 forum headings is a "donut up the ass".

[ChadTower]

I agree.  It's definitely more like chocolate eclair.

[shardian]

I vote Apple fritter - big, brown and chunky. 

[shmokes]

Take jukeboxes.  I think that the type of jukeboxes people in this hobby build are, about 95% of the time, god-awful gigantic eyesores, and not even particularly functional.  But can you imagine if I went on a campaign to have that forum eliminated, or hidden, or restricted in some other way based on my own personal preferences?  People would put forth exactly the arguments I am now.  They'd say, "Just stay out of that forum.  Nobody's forcing you to go in there."  No imagine that every six months or so, I resurrect my cause and start the campaign afresh.  And the same damned arguments get rehashed over and over again.  Don't you think the people who like Jukeboxes might get a little irritated with me?  Now here's the kicker, imagine that in spite of how crazy ridiculous my position is (surely when it's not PnR you can all see how ridiculous it is, even though I legitimately hate those jukeboxes), I achieve little victories.  Saint concedes just a little bit, here in there.  Small restrictions here.  Make it a little harder to participate in there.  But these things add up, and the forum starts really stagnating.  Don't you think that the jukebox people are going to get frustrated and call me an ---uvula--- for waging my irrational, unfair war on them when all I have to do to make EVERYONE happy is simply ignore them?  You see that.  You must see that.

[shmokes]

The whole "just don't click in there" doesn't account for those of us who use means other than the main page for getting thread listings.

Good point. Vote changed...

Hey wow!  I convinced someone to change a vote!   

How does that legitimize anything.  You choose to use RSS.  Why should our entire forum suck monkey balls so that you don't have to see thread titles?  What if some users don't frequent or want to see EE threads, or Linux threads, or Jukebox threads?  What if they use RSS.  Should Saint hide those threads from the world so sensitive RSS users can sleep at night without having to imagine what is going on in all those threads he's not interested in?

[ChadTower]

If people in the jukebox forum were belligerent, aggressive, and abusive, no one would blame you for wanting the jukebox forum gone.

I don't want the PnR forum gone for everyone... just for me.  I have given up on it being a place worth being and on it being a positive contribution to BYOAC.

[XyloSesame]

The whole "just don't click in there" doesn't account for those of us who use means other than the main page for getting thread listings.

Good point. Vote changed...

Hey wow!  I convinced someone to change a vote!   

How does that legitimize anything.  You choose to use RSS.  Why should our entire forum suck monkey balls so that you don't have to see thread titles?  What if some users don't frequent or want to see EE threads, or Linux threads, or Jukebox threads?  What if they use RSS.  Should Saint hide those threads from the world so sensitive RSS users can sleep at night without having to imagine what is going on in all those threads he's not interested in?

I wouldn't say it legitimizes anything (don't want to speak for you, Chad); however, in using RSS or other means to view a forum, I don't want to see topics unrelated to that specific forum. If I wanted to weed through PnR feeds, I'd check out a PnR forum. In fact, it seems like the opportunity for self-service opt-out of all subs would be good...

[ChadTower]

Self-service opt out hasn't been presented as an option to this point.  I suspect that is because the forum doesn't have that as a user function currently. 

I don't claim that using RSS makes my opinion any more valid that shmokes'.  It does, however, present the concept that people use multiple methods for browsing the forums (three have thus far been noted).  RSS in particular is one I think saint would want to pay attention to as any external service that wants to offer a BYOAC feed is going to be getting it through RSS.  Would we really want someone somewhere with a scrolling BYOAC topic feed getting all of the nastiness that will come up when the '08 election starts?


(yes, I realize the irony of being the Chief Kicker and saying that)

[shardian]

There is a fundamental difference between the jukebox forum and the P&R forum.

The jukebox forum is arcade related, and there is relevant and good discussion that happen in there.

P&R is not arcade relevant.

That is not exactly an apples to apples argument. Now if you want to be fair, compare P&R to EE.

[bfauska]

Self-service opt out hasn't been presented as an option to this point.  I suspect that is because the forum doesn't have that as a user function currently. 

I don't claim that using RSS makes my opinion any more valid that shmokes'.  It does, however, present the concept that people use multiple methods for browsing the forums (three have thus far been noted).  RSS in particular is one I think saint would want to pay attention to as any external service that wants to offer a BYOAC feed is going to be getting it through RSS.  Would we really want someone somewhere with a scrolling BYOAC topic feed getting all of the nastiness that will come up when the '08 election starts?


(yes, I realize the irony of being the Chief Kicker and saying that)

This post is actually a good argument for opt-IN.  I do think that opt-out makes P&R a more lively place where only people who are sick of it are not there but new people get the opportunity to decide for themselves, but with opt-out, anybody who mostly experiences the forum from an RSS situation will possibly not know that they can opt-out of the P&R portion of the feed.  If people have to opt-in then any passive observer of the site won't have their experience of this really really helpful arcade controls forum watered down by all of our bickering.

Now I'm in the air, but my vote stands at opt-out.

[saint]

Gah, it's a 3-way tie! Don't make me make a decision! ...

[tommy]

The point is no one wants to be told to ---fudgesicle--- off and should not have to put up with that sort of talk, and even with these so called rules and how it implies that this sort of talk is not tolerated it is still tolerated, this sort of thing is till going on and it should not be.

PnR talk and being told to ---fudgesicle--- off seems to just go hand and hand with this whole forum section.

[shmokes]

Casual users will not be using RSS, most likely.  Casual users will come to the website, and if they get hooked, and if they even know what rss is and how to use it (statistically unlikely, by the way) they might decide to use RSS.

I can see pulling pulling PnR and EE just from RSS syndication if Saint was concerned about headlines being syndicated on other websites or something.  Otherwise, I think it's dumb.  RSS is really handy -- for PnR folks as well as other people.

EE is really the irritation for me.  I simply cannot fathom how posting a link to "Leave Britney Alone" is more valid than a thread discussing whether voting for a third party is good, or worse than a wasted vote.  Hell . . . entire graduate courses in higher education are devoted to the second question.  I can at least sympathize, if not identify and agree with people who ONLY do arcade-related stuff here feeling like PnR is an imposter that doesn't belong. 

But every single person who posts anything whatsoever in EE, who is fighting the war against PnR is a hypocrite.  Nothing makes cheesecake a more objectively legitimate or important topic than politics (it IS, in fact, more important, but . . .   ).  Nothing makes NFL last-man-standing one shred more appropriate than politics (Hell . . . considering the existence of Tommy, I question whether football is even less contentious than PnR). 

[shmokes]

The point is no one wants to be told to ---fudgesicle--- off and should not have to put up with that sort of talk, and even with these so called rules and how it implies that this sort of talk is not tolerated it is still tolerated, this sort of thing is till going on and it should not be.

PnR talk and being told to ---fudgesicle--- off seems to just go hand and hand with this whole forum section.

Tommy, are you sure you are really in a position to be lecturing anyone about conducting oneself well?

[ChadTower]

The simple response to EE being more or less valid than PnR is this:

It's not more valid.  Validity is not the problem.  Behaviour within the subsection is the problem.  PnR has by far the highest abuse to signal ratio.

[tommy]

The point is no one wants to be told to ---fudgesicle--- off and should not have to put up with that sort of talk, and even with these so called rules and how it implies that this sort of talk is not tolerated it is still tolerated, this sort of thing is till going on and it should not be.

PnR talk and being told to ---fudgesicle--- off seems to just go hand and hand with this whole forum section.

Tommy, are you sure you are really in a position to be lecturing anyone about conducting oneself well?

I've already admitted that i cannot deal with others In PnR and that i can also be a problem there, but others are too.

That is why i choose to not be there and subject myself to the kind of chat that will bring out the worst in me. These type of heated talks bring out the worse in almost everyone it seems from the evidence in this and other forums.

[shardian]

Behaviour within the subsection is the problem.  PnR has by far the highest abuse to signal ratio.

What he said. EE is lighthearted chatter. P&R definitely brings out the worst in everyone most of the time.

[ChadTower]

Most of the reason why I left is that while I was usually (but not 100% of the time) able to keep above the maturity line in debating there, it took too much effort, with too little reciprocation.  I would end up with a crappy taste in my mouth as a result and that's not what I want to take away from time at BYOAC.  I enjoy the forum much more when I'm not hanging out in PnR.

[tommy]

 I would end up with a crappy taste in my mouth as a result

Now you know how most of us feel while reading your posts.   


I'm kidding, kinda. 

[ChadTower]

It's all good.  Kinda.   

[tommy]

Hey look at it this way, if i didn't like you in some odd way i wouldn't have taken the time to make fun of you and would have just told you to ---fudgesicle--- off.   

[ChadTower]

Wait, did I just get the tommy seal of quality?   

[WunderCade]

Gah, it's a 3-way tie! Don't make me make a decision! ...

I'm not so sure that it is a tie if you consider sentiment...the people who think you should either just not click on it if you don't like it or that you should just opt-out if you don't like it - outnumber the people who want it gone from the screen (and accessed only by opt-in) by almost a 3 to 1 margin.

[bfauska]

Wait, did I just get the tommy seal of quality?   

Dude wash it off quick.   

[polaris]

regarding the rss feed thing, couldnt rss feeds be set up for each forum(21 i make it) then people could just subscribe to the ones of interest to them