720 revisited

[SirPoonga]

Ok, so what are our options for 720?

Was there a build that you could assign a button to the calibration?  I might use a motor brush on my spinner for callibration then.

[u_rebelscum]

Ok, so what are our options for 720?

Was there a build that you could assign a button to the calibration?  I might use a motor brush on my spinner for callibration then.

Mame:Analog+ can do any of the following:

• (best) real controller
• (second best) analog joystick
• (eh) 8way
• (eh) normal spinner

I guess you could use a normal spinner, adjust analog sensitivity as close as possible, and set a button to the (8way) joystick - up.  Haven't tried that though.

And Jake (jerryjanis) was nice enough to write up a howto on using the different inputs on analog+: http://newserver.mywwwserver.com/~jstookey/arcade/720/720-instructions.php  Thanks Jake!

BTW, you can just dl a+'s source and use just the 720 edits in src/drivers/atarisy2.c; it's indepent of the rest of the code.  Except one small part: you can change the player 4 input back to player 1.  You'll see what I mean.

[SirPoonga]

I'm just trying to find ways to make my scurrent spinner work well, with calibration.

I have two options, one of which I could try now, one of which I need money to buy parts.

My first ide is to have two optical inputs (two mice axis).  This would be closest to a real controller I could get.  I;ve explained that idea a couple of times here.

My other idea is, since the encoder disc I have is metal, to use a motor bruch on one side hooked up to ground, on the other side put a drop of solder on the disc.  Then mount another motor brush at due north slightly off the disc surface so when the solder passes by it ccompletes a circuit.  But in order for that to happen I need a way for that circuit to register as teh calibration disc.

[shmokes]

If you could assign a button for calibration you could use the up or down action of Oscar's new DOT spinner to calibrate, eh?

[SirPoonga]

If you could assign a button for calibration you could use the up or down action of Oscar's new DOT spinner to calibrate, eh?

No, that would be bad.

[Lilwolf]

I sent out my 720 controller to Oscar so he could take a look and see what it would take to replicate them.

But with his DoT controllers coming out... I don't think he's had time to even look at it.  Hopefully he can come up with a way to replicate them.

[Superdave]

I 2nd the hope of Oscar coming up w/ a 720 controller. Too dang hard to find one

[jerryjanis]

I sent out my 720 controller to Oscar so he could take a look and see what it would take to replicate them.

That's awesome!  Oscar was receptive to the idea then?

I 2nd the hope of Oscar coming up w/ a 720 controller. Too dang hard to find one

More importantly, it's impossible to find one that hasn't suffered from 17 years of the worst kind of abuse (from those punk skateboarders!).  I got one on Ebay, and it's in rough shape...  I know I'm not the only one in that boat, too!  Man, I'd buy one in a jiffy...

Then mount another motor brush at due north slightly off the disc surface so when the solder passes by it ccompletes a circuit.  But in order for that to happen I need a way for that circuit to register as teh calibration disc.

I guess you could use a normal spinner, adjust analog sensitivity as close as possible, and set a button to the (8way) joystick - up.  Haven't tried that though.

That doesn't work...  If you look at the source code you'll notice that as soon as you so much as touch the mouse, the 8way mode ceases to function.

What you could do is to map one of the "Dial V 4" controls to the calibration brush's button (you would also have to alter the analog settings for Dial V 4: something like "Key/Joy Speed=1", "Sensitivity=255" or whatever works for you).  That's a cool way to do it because then it would work more like the real arcade joystick did.  I wonder why the guys at Atari didn't decide to immediately calibrate to due north like in u_rebelscum's suggestion?

[SirPoonga]

What you could do is to map one of the "Dial V 4" controls to the calibration brush's button (you would also have to alter the analog settings for Dial V 4: something like "Key/Joy Speed=1", "Sensitivity=255" or whatever works for you).  That's a cool way to do it because then it would work more like the real arcade joystick did.  I wonder why the guys at Atari didn't decide to immediately calibrate to due north like in u_rebelscum's suggestion?

Who knows, there are alot easier ways to get the same effect.  Heck, my single encoder disc idea will work and feel just like the original if I get around to doing it.

[OSCAR]

I sent out my 720 controller to Oscar so he could take a look and see what it would take to replicate them.

But with his DoT controllers coming out... I don't think he's had time to even look at it.  Hopefully he can come up with a way to replicate them.

I'm creating shop drawings from Lilwolf's controller right now.  It is taking me a bit longer than I originally anticipated since Lilwolf waited until about two weeks before I released my DOT spinner to make his gracious offer, but I wasn't about to turn down the opportunity...  

I'm not trying to give the impression that I will be manufacturing these controllers in the near future, but once I have the drawings complete it's only a matter of $$, interest, and time.  

[kspiff]

I don't know if I can speak for the rest of this board, but I would buy a repro for sure.. I know where I can get a real 'stick' right now (no eBaying necessary, even), but they're too expensive for something which is A.) used; B.) heavy (as one would expect includes the control panel); and C.) just karmically wrong to use in a MAME machine (wasted control panel and joystick meant for a vanishing classic).

Plus there is the bonus that -- if designed similarly enough -- you may find yourself selling a lot of these for 720 refurbs.. are people doing this with your DOT spinners?  Or is the design too different?

[u_rebelscum]

My first idea is to have two optical inputs (two mice axis).  This would be closest to a real controller I could get.  I;ve explained that idea a couple of times here.

If you feel like it, could you try this idea using analog+, and report back?

Cover all but one or two gaps on the second axis.  Calibrate the first axis as close as possible (before the second axis is used as calibration wheel).  Assign the second axis to Dial V 4 and set this to 100% sensitivity.  (You need -switchaxes enabled in analog+ to re-assign the second mouse axis, and this is not limited to USB nor to winME/98.)

Covering the gaps and leaving two would be best if the gap spacing caused the cursor to wiggle back and forth instead of moving up and down, but will work even if it walks insteads of wiggles.

I guess you could use a normal spinner, adjust analog sensitivity as close as possible, and set a button to the (8way) joystick - up.  Haven't tried that though.

That doesn't work...  If you look at the source code you'll notice that as soon as you so much as touch the mouse, the 8way mode ceases to function.

D'oh.  I forgot.

What you could do is to map one of the "Dial V 4" controls to the calibration brush's button (you would also have to alter the analog settings for Dial V 4: something like "Key/Joy Speed=1", "Sensitivity=255" or whatever works for you).  That's a cool way to do it because then it would work more like the real arcade joystick did.

Good suggestion.

[SirPoonga]

If you feel like it, could you try this idea using analog+, and report back?

Yeah, I would, But I need the parts to do this.   I need a mouse hack with both IR pairs (as the oscar spinner only somes with one) and a way to mount the second set of IRs at due north.  Remember, I plan on using one disc, just making two grooves deeper and setting the second IRs to just register those.

[u_rebelscum]

... Remember, I plan on using one disc, just making two grooves deeper and setting the second IRs to just register those.

Ah, right.  Now I remember.  

Have you tried an analog joystick with analog+?  One possibility is take the spring(s) out of an analog stick to keep it at a slant.  Won't have the "feel", though.

...I'm not trying to give the impression that I will be manufacturing these controllers in the near future, but once I have the drawings complete it's only a matter of $$, interest, and time.  

I'm interested.  If/when a replica is made, I'm very much there.  Unless I get a working real controller first.

Quick question, how does the original encoder wheel compare to the DOT encoder wheel?

[shmokes]

I thought they were practically identical.  They both have 72 teeth don't they?  I've never actually seen a 720 wheel, though, so I have no idea if it's as big as Oscar's monster encoder wheel.

[u_rebelscum]

I thought they were practically identical.  They both have 72 teeth don't they?  I've never actually seen a 720 wheel, though, so I have no idea if it's as big as Oscar's monster encoder wheel.

And I was wondering if Oscar's wheel is as big as the 720 wheel, but am guessing they're close to the same size.  (I have a badly warped 720 encoder wheel.)

The Oscar's DOT repro wheel looks a lot thicker than than the 720 wheel, and the internal diameter of the center hole in the 720 is definately bigger than the DOT's.  That's all I can tell from the pics.  

I was wondering about the actual details.

But, yes, that 72 teeth is very promising, if not for Oscar to use for a 720 repro, then for me to try to hack onto one.  I'm debating if I want to get a DOT repro from Oscar, and before I deside to get one, I want to know if I should get a "spare" wheel to try to hack into a 720 controller.

[armad1ll0]

you know what's crazy? I work with Dave Ralston... one of the original designers of 720...

[kspiff]

A bit OT, but.. one of these CPs is currently @ $150+ with days left to go O_O

Even for a 720 CP, that's pretty damn high.. I feel bad for the guys with real machines trying to get a new CP on eBay

[Lilwolf]

I have an idea!  That might just work pretty well!

1) Hack an analog controller.  Finding the ball handle on one might be the hard part... but that will be worth it I would guess...

2) Get a lazy susan with the center whole big enought for the joystick to move around in without touching..

3) attach a thin plastic over the lazy susan and attach.

4) Cut a whole in the plastic to put the joystick through... so it's only at its edge..  And it will rotate around the entire area.

done!

The best case would be something similar to a real 720.

1) make a circle with a whole on it at the edge.  The joystick goes through the whole.

2) make another plastic square or whatever with a larger circle cut out of it (that the other one will fit in

3) make ANOTHER plastic or metal (or your control panel) with a hole in it so that the one around the joystick cant pop out.  This is what holds everything down.

This is how the original keeps it turning.  It kind of smashs the parts together.

But with the analog being easier to configure / not deal with directions and the extra true north encoder wheel... this seems to be the best.

[SirPoonga]

... Remember, I plan on using one disc, just making two grooves deeper and setting the second IRs to just register those.

Ah, right.  Now I remember.  

I almost have all the parts.  I'd like an extra spinner knob though, but I can get another one in the future.  My Idea is to have a removable joystick part so you can use the spinner as normal.  All I need now is a mouse to hack (which I am not good at) and a way to mount the second axis on my oscar spinner at due north.

actually, I might be able to use my trackball mouse hack for now.  I have a couple of extra wico IR boards to play with.

[Wade]

You might handle the second optical switch without having to separate the transmitter and receiver? (Separating them might make it real hard to get it to work again)  You could mount a small tab sticking down from the main wheel.  Something like this:

                | |                        < center axis of main wheel
----------------------------        < main wheel
    |           | |                        < tab, and center axis
   
The tab could slide right through an optical mounted under the main wheel.  Since the switch would actually trigger in the opposite manner, this might not work, but if 720 isn't picky about whether or not the second axis "walks" or "twitches", it might work.  Just a thought.

Wade