Slik Stik - Any Word

[tkachuk7]

hi, everyone. i'm one of the lurkers that's been reading this thread for a week or so, and i have to say i'm very glad i did. i've been saving my "play money" for over a year to buy the CO2 controller. last week, when i went on slikstik's website to finally place my order, the site was down. a google search brought me to this forum and saved me from becoming another victim of unfulfilled orders. i was very, very happy to see scott was selling the CO2 on mameroom.com.

now i see that's not an option anymore. (i can't blame you, scott.)

my question for all of you is this: in your opinion, what's the controller that's most similar to the CO2? (i like the dual joystick controls.)
i'm very new at MAME and appreciate any and all opinions i can get from all of you.

thanks again in advance for any suggestions and for saving me from making what most likely would have been a huge mistake.
shari

[Justin Z]

I would contact Jack at arcadesrfun.com.  He does custom work for free, so I don't think it would be difficult for him to add joysticks for you in similar places to where they would go on a CO₂.

Additionally, I have ordered both a panel from him and a CO₂ from Slikstik, and I can say from experience that the quality of his work is superior.

[RayB]

I'm impressed with a couple of the recent posts by "lurkers" and low post count members. Wish more people had such reasoned thought processes. But "txtworld", man, you need to sit back and just read rather than spouting crap (like the TM stuff you've already been corrected on). Quit with the "50K of funds (in retail terms)". You have NO idea what his profit margin is, so this is absolute made-up nonsense. The world of custom-made niche products is not like Walmart.

PS: Sounds like there's a nice market gap left open for *someone* to step in and fill... 

[FrizzleFried]

I will be removing my little SS/MR banner.  Thank you Scott for (finally) taking the high road when it comes to SS and their dealings.

[TPB]

spouting crap (like the TM stuff you've already been corrected on).

I'm not a trademark lawyer.

I made no claims to the contrary.

And I was happy to stand corrected by Patent Doc  (thanks).   

However, I did discover the SlikStik trademark was abandoned on May 10, 2007 (**), and the fact remains, it would seem unusual for a business that is a going concern, to just let the registration of their trademark "slip away".

Patent Doc mentioned they could have maintained this registration, by simply presenting a sales receipt :

Here, oddly enough,  the application for registration was never granted because they filed under an intent to use statute and never submitted evidence of use. I say this is odd, because any sales receipt would have been sufficient ... guess they were to "busy" to bother.

(**) RayB, I look forward to you similarly contributing some tangible information to this discussion, or at least demonstrating some level of courtesy towards fellow posters.

OK, I've had harsh words for SlikStik, but they've been warranted, and have helped contribute towards saving newbies (like shari) from a lot of grief :

hi, everyone. i'm one of the lurkers that's been reading this thread for a week or so, and i have to say i'm very glad i did. i've been saving my "play money" for over a year to buy the CO2 controller. last week, when i went on slikstik's website to finally place my order, the site was down. a google search brought me to this forum and saved me from becoming another victim of unfulfilled orders. 

... thanks again in advance for any suggestions and for saving me from making what most likely would have been a huge mistake.

Regarding your other (rudely stated) piece of advice :

Quit with the "50K of funds (in retail terms)". You have NO idea what his profit margin is

I made it plain this was an estimate, I never quoted that as a precise figure.

People has been assuming that SlikStik were sitting on 20K of cash from orders.

Someone had summised, that because Christian said he'd need to spend "over 20K out of my own pocket" to produce the unfulfilled orders, that it meant there must be 20K in order funds outstanding.

My point was, the order funds outstanding (on a retail basis) must be a larger amount.

The MARGINAL (UNIT) COST to produce, on a WHOLESALE basis, does not equal the RETAIL funds received.

The retail funds received must be a larger amount, as it must include a PROFIT MARGIN (the owners of the business need to make a return on investment), and must also include an OVERHEAD COST component.

RayB ... your naivety aside, please accept that ALL businesses, if they wish to remain in business, need to include these components in their pricing ... not just WalMart.   

Your remarks make no sense anyway ... Niche businesses need to include a larger margin in their pricing.  WalMart can afford to have a very slim margin indeed (on a "per unit sold" basis), because they can recoup their overhead costs (and make a profit) over millions of units of product sold.

[TPB]

I will be removing my little SS/MR banner.  Thank you Scott for (finally) taking the high road when it comes to SS and their dealings.

Good stuff FrizzleFried !!   

Scott deserves the opportunity to honour his commitments.

Missioncontrol, I reckon it's time to bury the hatchet.

Let's give Scott the chance he deserves.

[CheffoJeffo]

FWIW, I noticed that Scott apologized for defending a fellow vendor (which is not, in itself, something to apologize for) and that he regrets the impact of using SlikStik as a supplier.

I also notice that he does not seem to be sorry for calling certain BYOAC members selfish and blaming them for Xtian's bailing on his promise. Those people (myself included) were acting in good faith and simply recognized the history that Xtian has had, including the times when he presented himself specifically as the owner of SlikStik.

Is the recent change a simple business decision because Scott has realized that his actions have hurt MAMERoom or does he actually believe that he was out of line ?

I'm not convinced and don't see a reason why MC needs to be.

 

EDIT: for spelling

[ark_ader]

Well you now have no reason notto  get a X Arcade controller.

They have great customer service, just make sure you live in the USA, and their products will stand the test of time.



Click Saint's link above to get you there.   

[TPB]

Well you now have no reason notto  get a X Arcade controller.

They have great customer service, just make sure you live in the USA, and their products will stand the test of time.

Click Saint's link above to get you there.   

Even better, go for one of their 40 pound, 37 inch wide, XXL Mame panels   

http://www.xgaming.com/mame-panel.shtml


I don't think there's a link from the XGaming website to this product - you must use the URL above (Saint, do you have an affiliate version of this link ??)

There's no requirement to live in the USA, their products ship internationally.  Although, it's a bit hard to take advantage of the "30 day money back guarantee" and "lifetime warranty" from overseas.

Note, this panel is currently out of stock (has been for a while), but they finally have an ETA, and you won't be charged until your order ships :

Place order now, item will be back-ordered and shipped in Feb 08. You will be guaranteed inventory and you WILL NOT BE CHARGED UNTIL ITEM SHIPS.

[saint]

BYOAC X-Arcade affiliate link. Thanks for asking!

[RayB]

RayB ... your naivety aside, please accept that ALL businesses, if they wish to remain in business, need to include these components in their pricing ... not just WalMart.   

Your remarks make no sense anyway ... Niche businesses need to include a larger margin in their pricing.  WalMart can afford to have a very slim margin indeed (on a "per unit sold" basis), because they can recoup their overhead costs (and make a profit) over millions of units of product sold.

Big businesses purchase in bulk which gets them smaller prices (the more you order, the smaller the individual item cost). On top of this are sometimes distributors taking their cut, etc, etc.

You don't know what Slikstiks costs are. You don't know what their markup is. You contribute nothing by pulling figures out of your ass. For all you know all the revenue went up his nose and he's sitting on $0.

[TPB]

RayB,

I'm glad you now agree that profit margins apply to ALL businesses, which must be incorporated (along with overhead cost allocations) into the retail price.

Pofit margins only apply to WalMart ... LOL   

You don't know what Slikstiks costs are. You don't know what their markup is.

As I've made clear, I've never claimed to know the actual markup amount.

My estimate was solely to emphasise the point, that there IS a markup involved, so the amount of cash received for unfulfilled orders would far exceed the "over 20K" that Christian quoted as the cost to produce the unfulfilled orders (which only equates to marginal costs on a wholesale basis).

For all you know all the revenue went up his nose and he's sitting on $0.

LOL ... point taken ... NOW you're contributing some interesting ideas to the debate.   

I guess only Christian knows the answer to that one.

[Fozzy The Bear]

FWIW, I noticed that Scott apologized for defending a fellow vendor (which is not, in itself, something to apologize for) and that he regrets the impact of using SlikStik as a supplier.

I also notice that he does not seem to be sorry for calling certain BYOAC members selfish and blaming them for Xtian's bailing on his promise. Those people (myself included) were acting in good faith and simply recognized the history that Xtian has had, including the times when he presented himself specifically as the owner of SlikStik.

Is the recent change a simple business decision because Scott has realized that his actions have hurt MAMERoom or does he actually believe that he was out of line ?

I'm not convinced and don't see a reason why MC needs to be.

Well said!  It saved me from saying it.

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)

[missioncontrol]

I will be removing my little SS/MR banner.  Thank you Scott for (finally) taking the high road when it comes to SS and their dealings.

Good stuff FrizzleFried !!   

Scott deserves the opportunity to honour his commitments.

Missioncontrol, I reckon it's time to bury the hatchet.

Let's give Scott the chance he deserves.

LEAVE MAMEROOM ALONE

how about this

Let's give Scott the chance he earns.

[Mameroom]

That's actually kinda funny MC...brought on a chuckle. 

If I outright CALLED someone a name, or outright accused someone of something...then I apoligize.  I didn't re-read everything here, but I can only recall actually calling out one person directly...in which I apoligized.

I made some general statements...if people took offense to those as if I was accusing them...all I can say is I'm sorry you feel that way.  While I may have been wrong in my decisions to offer certain products, I do not believe I was wrong in attempting to get people their products by letting Chris do so.  I do recall that my whole point was for people to "back off" a little to see what happens...if nothing good happens, then continue fighting the good fight.  I will not apoligize for trying to do what I thought was right when it comes to that...I'm sorry if that's not what you wanted to hear.

[CheffoJeffo]

I made some general statements...if people took offense to those as if I was accusing them...all I can say is I'm sorry you feel that way.  While I may have been wrong in my decisions to offer certain products, I do not believe I was wrong in attempting to get people their products by letting Chris do so.  I do recall that my whole point was for people to "back off" a little to see what happens...if nothing good happens, then continue fighting the good fight.  I will not apoligize for trying to do what I thought was right when it comes to that...I'm sorry if that's not what you wanted to hear.

That's strange, I don't recall seeing anybody restraining a struggling Xtian while he so valiantly battled to get people their stuff ... everybody DID let him do so ... it's just he DIDN'T do so.

It's not about what I want to hear and I never actually expected you to apologize to the folks you said didn't care, called selfish and blamed for Xtian's latest failure to deliver. 

If I am rubbing people the wrong way by saying that pissing chris off will not get other's their panels...then I'm I truely am sorry, but...Given that FACT, that certain people in here could care less about whether or not other received their panels...and the FACT that Chris publicly (even though through a 3rd party) stated that this was the EXACT reason for not doing was I knew would happen.  Let's say I blame them for DELIBERATELY pissing chris off enough to not fullfill his promise to get people's products out...but we ALL know that's what they wanted from the beginning to add fuel to THEIR fire.  Selfish.

The only thing you are sorry for is that the community reacted badly to what you did and wanted to do.

And there really isn't anything wrong with that -- I just wanted to point out the difference between reactive marketing spin and an actual revelation.

[Mameroom]

Let's say I blame them for DELIBERATELY pissing chris off enough to not fullfill his promise to get people's products out...but we ALL know that's what they wanted from the beginning to add fuel to THEIR fire.  Selfish

I meant what I said...I honestly believe that several people in here would rather OTHER people not get their panels than to back-off.  You CANNOT tell me that I'm wrong.  If you are one of those people...then anything I say, you are going to have a problem with. 

Here, let's end this...it's noone's fault in the BYOAC forums...full BLAME goes to the person/people/business who failed to complete any part of an agreed transaction.  I'm sorry for implying otherwise.

[CheffoJeffo]

I meant what I said...I honestly believe that several people in here would rather OTHER people not get their panels than to back-off.  You CANNOT tell me that I'm wrong.  If you are one of those people...then anything I say, you are going to have a problem with. 

Of course I can tell you that you are wrong, because I believe that you are.

Of all of the people who posted, and continued to post, facts and opinions that reflected poorly on Xtian, I don't believe that any of them had the evil motives that you assign to them.

[Mameroom]

Fine...IF that's the case and EVERYONE had good intentions...I'm wrong (if I am wrong...and an apoligy for being wrong is warranted as well...then I apoligize).

[Sir Auros]

Could we just leave Scott alone at this point? I was in the fray with you guys arguing with him, but at this point I think the continued witch hunt is reflecting badly on BYOAC.

[FrizzleFried]

While I don't think anything said here "reflects badly" on BYOAC,  I do agree that we should all just chill a little.  The object of our ire SHOULD BE Christian...as we've stated many times before.  But he isn't the only one that owns SS.  Where is the equal outrage at the other owner (Jerry M.).  Where does he fit in to all this?

Scott,  you'd be best served to stop posting in this thread.  It seems that your views of this situation are quite the contrary of many in here and they are provocative.  You are inviting argument by expressing them in here. 

[Mameroom]

That's probably good advise.  I'm actually going to take a break from here for awhile to focus my efforts and time on updating our CPD software as afore mentioned.

...I sincerely wish everyone the best

[lob]

You guys might find this thread from alt.games.mame from late 2001 (yeah that long ago) VERY interesting, and revealing.

http://tinyurl.com/3buays


Here's just one of about 50 posts in this thread:

On Thu, 6 Dec 2001 10:20:33 -0000, "Cutting Edge"

<c...@cutting-edge-cards.com> wrote:
>anyone notice the similarity between this post (from Christian the owner of
>Slik ---steaming pile of meadow muffin---)

<snip>

>And this one...(from Pcotte - a future customer of theirs)

<snip>

Mate, Jesus that was well spotted. I think they're the only "two"
people I've ever seen here to post with a 3 line break. Here, I'm only
doing it now to illustrate how rare and distinctive this is...



Actually Chritian being pcotte makes sense. They're tone and language
is very similar. Rick is probably the other partner (which explains
why Christian contradicted Rick about meeting at his house).
You know, like all crooks they didn't get their stories straight...and
ended up contradicting each other.



Not sure who FogBreath is; he probably owns the garage they use to
build their one and only SlikStik. Indeed, this is the one they show
off on their web page. And, the only one they ever intend to build.
Over the next few months they plan to get as many $400 orders as they
can, without producing a single SlikStik. Then, as things become too
heated, transfer the money from paypal to a Swiss Bank account and
head straight for South America to join a religious Christian Cult.



Glad I watched Scooby Doo as a kid. This 3-line break is stupid; I'm
going back to one line..

There, that's better.

lob

[FrizzleFried]

My company [emphasis mine] produced the SlikStik for many reasons. As a retro gamer myself I
love to play games, I have done so since my first C64 and over the years I
have always enjoyed playing older and newer games "the old lady still
bitches from time to time" but it really is a shame the you "lob" have been
on here posting very negative comments and trying to give our product a "bad
name".

-Christian, December 6, 2001

I will say it again, what does that look
like to you, well to me "especially as one of the owners of the SlikStik, [emphasis mine] it
looks like their was a hidden agenda, maybe this "lob" character actually is
working with the makers of the "OzStik" or maybe its just a HUGE coincidence
that a maker of another control panel just happened to come across this post
and JUST HAPPENS to be an aussie.

-Christian, December 6, 2001

Proof is in the pudding....

[CheffoJeffo]

That thread is one of my personal favourites and I will take the opportunity to point out the title of the thread, as created by Xtian:

"SlikStik Owner (message to all)"

and pay particular attention to

"especially as one of the owners of the SlikStik, it looks like their [sic] was a hidden agenda"

It's pretty easy to see why people believe that Xtian is/was more than an employee of SlikStik ...

EDIT: Dammit Frizzle, you type too fast !

[TPB]

I don't believe Scott has been left "out of pocket" by Christian.  He's too clever and canny, with too much business acumen, to allow that to happen :

The fact of the matter is...whether Chris is or was just an employee (which is my understanding) or a partner, or even the owner of SlikStik LLC...It is an LLC which protects him personally...unless you wrote a check out to "Christian S" directly.  I know this, because I have several LLCs set up by my attorney and business consultant for this very reason.

... anyone who put that much forethought into setting up an LLC business structure to "cover his ass" if all goes south, would NOT be naive enough to allow himself to be duped by Christian.

Yes, Christian has not produced the panels Scott ordered from him (to fulfil his own Mameroom orders), but you can bet Scott set up a COD payment arrangement with Christian, ie, "you don't get paid UNTIL I see my panel".

As to whether he was naive enough to believe his stated proclamation, that Christian was nothing more than a "mere employee" of SlikStik, well, that's open to conjecture.

Let's say I blame them for DELIBERATELY pissing chris off enough to not fullfill his promise to get people's products out...but we ALL know that's what they wanted from the beginning to add fuel to THEIR fire.  Selfish.

... Scott, I've only repeated this quote, because you proclaimed to CheffoJeffo that you continue to stand by it :

I meant what I said...I honestly believe that several people in here would rather OTHER people not get their panels than to back-off.  You CANNOT tell me that I'm wrong.

That's a pretty sweeping statement.

I think you'll find we were all stoked when Mike Ahearn got his money back a few days ago (through his bank processing a chargeback on his behalf), after his cash had been MIA with SlikStik since March 2007.

It's a pity that getting chargebacks through a bank, is the only remedy still available ... none of us have "held Christian back" from whipping out his chequebook & sending out refunds himself, or completing the unfulfilled orders.

Guys, I think you're correct in your summation that Scott hasn't had a sudden change of heart towards our point of view ... his decision to sever ties with Christian is most probably a BUSINESS DECISION driven by a plunge in new orders Mameroom has experienced, since he made the ill-judged decision of joining forces with Christian.

He's now back-pedaling to salvage Mameroom's profitability.

Or maybe profitability has been "just fine", but Scott has come to realise that Christian is a supplier who cannot be relied upon.

Whatever ... the point is, this is a business decision, first and foremost.

But having said that, DOES IT REALLY MATTER what the MOTIVATION was behind Scott's decision ??  Surely the OUTCOME is what matters most ... and the outcome is that he's severed ties with SlikStik products and Christian (at least, that's what he's promised to do).

If Scott follows through on this commitment, surely this is the outcome everyone desires, so his motivation becomes somewhat irrelevant.

[Fozzy The Bear]

If I outright CALLED someone a name, or outright accused someone of something...then I apoligize.  I didn't re-read everything here, but I can only recall actually calling out one person directly...in which I apoligized.

Strange, I don't recall seeing an apology from you....

Personally I couldn't care less either way. You're just a minor side issue. That's not to say your behavior in here was acceptable in any way either to me personally or this community, and as far as I'm concerned your damage limitation exercise here is as unbelievable and disingenuous as your original posts.

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)

[rovingmind]

I've read whats there of this entire thread. 

At this point, all i can say is, let mameroom alone and see how he conducts himself in the future.  Anything else directed at him now is just repeat flaming.  Yes he made some posting mistakes.  Yes he's appologized.   All thats being brought up now has been brought up before a few pages back.  Yes the association with Christian has tarnished his reputation.

I agree with cheffo and fozzy regarding that slickstick/christian character.  If the name of his new business gets known, it needs broadcast around to warn everybody about him. 

It makes me glad i was able to get "whitey" from Dustin mustangs, i was able to see his actual finished cabinet "blackie" and its a really nice cabinet design.  I'm glad i have the capability of making a new control panel myself for whitey.  It also makes me a bit jealous since i dont have access to a cnc panel cutter.

Anytime i offer something for sale, i keep the payment separate until i know the customer is satisfied.  Its the easiest way of dealing with refund nastiness in my opinion.

[Circo]

You know I have been away for a few weeks, and it's kind of sad to see mameroom being dragged through the mud like this.  From a business aspect he has never (from multiple personal experiences) given anything but WOW service to his customers.  I have seen him go way out of his way on quite a few occasions and have been left slackjawed by his customer service.  (BTW, I mean that in a sincerely good way) 

At the end of the day isn't that what really matters, is there ANYONE here that can say they have ever got ripped off, or had bad service from mameroom?  If not then does any of the rest of it really matter?  He is always quick, easy to communicate with, and values his customers and his business. 

Speaking for myself, THANK YOU MAMEROOM, I don't care about the rest of the crap, you still have my business, and all of the folks I consult for.

[FrizzleFried]

At the end of the day isn't that what really matters, is there ANYONE here that can say they have ever got ripped off, or had bad service from mameroom?  If not then does any of the rest of it really matter? [emphasis mine]

Yes,  it matters.  Well,  it mattered.  Decisions have been made that takes him off my personal ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- list (not that he really cared if he was on it...nor should he)...but yes,  it mattered.

[Barry Barcrest]

At the end of the day isn't that what really matters, is there ANYONE here that can say they have ever got ripped off, or had bad service from mameroom?  If not then does any of the rest of it really matter?  He is always quick, easy to communicate with, and values his customers and his business. 

Look for any posts on here about VMJ, you'll see a lot of unhappy people. I don't understand how selective peoples memories are when it comes to this stuff. At this rate christian will be back up and running in a few months and everything will be forgotten... 

[FrizzleFried]

At the end of the day isn't that what really matters, is there ANYONE here that can say they have ever got ripped off, or had bad service from mameroom?  If not then does any of the rest of it really matter?  He is always quick, easy to communicate with, and values his customers and his business. 

Look for any posts on here about VMJ, you'll see a lot of unhappy people. I don't understand how selective peoples memories are when it comes to this stuff. At this rate christian will be back up and running in a few months and everything will be forgotten... 

Yah,  I was surprised that Scott had such a colorful "history" here as well...

...and I had absolutely no idea he had threatened to sue Saint back in 2003 was it?   I sure am glad that I was pointed in the right direction.   Very interesting reading indeed.

[Zakk]

My last question in this thread is for Scott:

Scott, who 'owns' Mameroom.  I heard you mention and praise LLC's and I just wonder if you OWN it, or you consider yourself an "employee".

[missioncontrol]

...and I had absolutely no idea he had threatened to sue Saint back in 2003 was it?

Link?

[Mameroom]

Scott, who 'owns' Mameroom.  I heard you mention and praise LLC's and I just wonder if you OWN it, or you consider yourself an "employee".

...Not being sarcastic, but what do you want to hear?

[Zakk]

The truth? 

[Mameroom]

I have posted information below for anyone seeking answers to some important questions that they may have:

As when you LLC, Incorporate , when you form an Ohio LLC , you, the member / owner,  are not personally liable for its debts and liabilities, but also have the benefit of being taxed only once on your Ohio LLC  or corporate profits.  Perhaps, an equally important feature is the flexibility of an Ohio LLC .   With an Ohio LLC  you are not required to abide with corporate formalities such as annual minutes .    Keep in mind though that you still need to keep your bank accounts and paperwork separate so you avoid being considered a sole owner instead of a corporation.

The above was taken from:
http://www.businessnameusa.com/State/OH/form_llc.htm

-You can do a google search to find your own sites, but this one popped up at the top of the list for me.

Unfortunatley (for many wary customers), if business owners had to fear personal persecution or financial liability for a failed business, they wouldn't start a business to begin with...the US government NEEDS small businesses to survive...therefore, they offer protection for them in the form of LLCs.  

I know this is not what this forum wanted, or needed, to hear...but I was asked about my own LLC...and I wanted to provide an honest answer....this is why I praise LLC's as a business owner.  I did say OWNER....but again, this doesn't mean much as far as what people want to hear.

[TPB]

...and I had absolutely no idea he had threatened to sue Saint back in 2003 was it?

Link?

FrizzleFried, MC,

Your question is off-topic, but given you've asked :

The users "Mameroom", "VMJ Team", and "CyberPunk" are all related.


http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=10463.msg79174#msg79174

I can't participate.  I got banned from Mameroom when Cyberpunk was planning to hire lawyers to try to shut down BYOAC.    

I cry....and I cry.

Yes, this was an unfortunate situation that has since been resolved. ...

[Mameroom]

...I think what DOES matter, is how comfortable consumers are doing business with a DOT COM company.  Because, whether they know it or not...anytime they order something online...they are in EXACTLY the same situation as what has transpired with SlikStik....you just don't hear about it all that often.  

The term "Buyer Beware" has probably been heard by almost everyone in this forum...but never had to deal with it personally.  That's why I feel it is important in running an online company, that customer support and service come first.

The users "Mameroom", "VMJ Team", and "CyberPunk" are all related.

Yes, that is correct:

VMJ Team...when posting for Digital Innovations LLC
CyberPunk...when posting for Cybertech Designs LLC
Mameroom...when posting for Mameroom Designs LLC

...all alive and well.

I'm glad someone found that link...proves what I was trying to say earlier...people NEED something to complain about, even way back then.

Clarification on the "lawsuit" issue (since someone is truely "digging" now).  Some disgruntled BYOAC members decided to purchase our DIY plans and offered to freely distribute them on BYOAC.  A clear violation of the Cybertech Designs copyright.  Saint handled the situation and it's all water under the bridge.  Props to saint (as always).

[Mameroom]

My favorite reply was from a fellow that posted:

why do people seem to have the need to harp about everything? Jesus people, it's just a friggin give away.  Let it go. Who cares if it doesn't fit your wanna-be lawyer mentality of what's legal and what isn't. Lets just pick it apart until it's dead. Is that the game you're all playing? Holy mother of God, just let it go...