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Author Topic: Removing The Click From Cherry MicroSwitches And Get Better Response  (Read 62004 times)

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Tiger-Heli

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Re: Removing The Click From Cherry MicroSwitches And Get Better Response
« Reply #40 on: October 26, 2007, 10:27:58 am »
You claim the Cherry switches (with spring) have a higher actuation force. That's obviously wrong. The low force version needs an operating force of 15g which is about the lowest you can get. The one I have is rated at 75g and I measured it (crudely I must admit) to be around 80g.
It's not obviously wrong...

In the first place, I don't know that the actuation force of the Honeywell switches is more than 15g.  In the second place, I don't know that the actuation force of the Cherry switches that I have is 15g (they have the same spring arrangement as the low-force that you posted a drawing of, but I didn't look at the model number.  In the third place, my Cherry switches are relatively new, and the Honeywell switches came off a wheel I bought off E-bay which had probably spent many years on location.

Quote
I actually did take my Cherry D42Y switch apart and the noise almost disappears when I put some paper in there. You must have done something wrong when you tried. The trick is to destroy the snap action and I don't see why it wouldn't work on any other type of snap action switch.
The spring provides much more snap action than the bent metal does.  How did you place the paper so it stayed in place on the D42Y switch and how did you do anything to minimize the snap action on the downstroke (the NO contact snapping down)?

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Personally I don't really care about the sound, but I do agree that the switch works better without the "snap action". One problem I have with microswitches is that when I fire quickly sometimes the switch misses a press because of the long throw (especially the snap back). With the paper inserted this is much less of an issue.
Agreed, although the sound kindof pinpoints when the switch is actuated and released, so minimizing it would be good as well, from a purist standpoint.

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Another problem I have with microswitch pushbuttons is the problem they have with the uneven load. You get resistance only on one side. This means the plunger will be pushed into the side and sometimes it will not even activate the switch when the other side runs into the stop. The centered plunger tip of the leaf button is better there too.
Never known this to be a problem.  I can understand in theory how it could be, but in practice I haven't seen any effects from it.
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patrickl

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Re: Removing The Click From Cherry MicroSwitches And Get Better Response
« Reply #41 on: October 26, 2007, 04:03:20 pm »
I have about 10 different types of microswitches and they indeed differ in operating force, sound level, throw and built quality. The basic feel of them all is pretty similar too though.

BTW I measured the operating force by placing the switch on digital scales. I guess it's not very accurate, but it does come pretty close to what the specs say for the switches (for the ones I could find specs that is)

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Quote
I actually did take my Cherry D42Y switch apart and the noise almost disappears when I put some paper in there. You must have done something wrong when you tried. The trick is to destroy the snap action and I don't see why it wouldn't work on any other type of snap action switch.
The spring provides much more snap action than the bent metal does.  How did you place the paper so it stayed in place on the D42Y switch and how did you do anything to minimize the snap action on the downstroke (the NO contact snapping down)?
I only used paper piece 1. This keeps the blade close to the middle and almost eliminates the snap action. The piece of paper is stopped by the spring (where the spring is attached to the blade). I guess I could simply glue/tape the piece of paper to the upper contact if I really wanted it to stay put. Actually i could fold a strip of paper lengthwise and make it go towards the NO contact too. I just wasn't sure what that was supposed to achieve and the effect of the paper on the NC contact did the trick already.



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fjl

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Re: Removing The Click From Cherry MicroSwitches And Get Better Response
« Reply #42 on: October 26, 2007, 05:15:43 pm »
That's a nice  close up picture. What kind of camera do you have?
Those spring switches work in a rather interesting manner.

patrickl

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Re: Removing The Click From Cherry MicroSwitches And Get Better Response
« Reply #43 on: October 26, 2007, 05:58:12 pm »
That's a nice  close up picture. What kind of camera do you have?
Thanks, but that's actually not a close-up. It's a 100% zoomed crop of the other picture. I did put on my macro lens, but the light was bad (that picture is a 4 second exposure) and I got lazy. The camera is a Konica Minolta 7D with a 180m macro lens.

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Those spring switches work in a rather interesting manner.
Your modification works pretty well on it. Maybe I should try putting piece 2 in also, but it looks like it will be a bit finicky to get it right and just the top piece alone got rid of about 90% of the sound and the snapping.
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Re: Removing The Click From Cherry MicroSwitches And Get Better Response
« Reply #44 on: October 26, 2007, 06:35:10 pm »
I was quite skeptical about piece 2 but it made a huge difference.  However, your button is also quite different, and I'm not sure how much it could really help.  The button in the original write-up by efjayel is what I have, and I can only assume it helps moderate the "snap" to the lower position.  Your button does not have much metal hanging past the contact positions, where piece 2 could provide a moderating influence.

But what do I know....

patrickl

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Re: Removing The Click From Cherry MicroSwitches And Get Better Response
« Reply #45 on: October 26, 2007, 08:25:58 pm »
I tried piece 2 as well and indeed it still removes more of the sound and snap. It's now really almost noiseless and snap free. I'd personally go so far as to say that it's too quiet and offers no feedback anymore.

To make sure the pieces stay put, it would probably be better to do this from one piece of paper (or plastic) and fold it where piece 1 and 2 meet (like a Z shape).

This time with a proper close up picture:

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Re: Removing The Click From Cherry MicroSwitches And Get Better Response
« Reply #46 on: October 27, 2007, 07:18:44 am »
Patrick,

Thanks for the pictures, gives me some ideas.

BTW, I assume you realize that the switch you have pictured is the high-force variety and you are saying that you have low-force switches as well.

FWIW, my Cherry switches are D44LR1-AA (from the markings on the side), and according to http://www.cherrycorp.com/english/switches/miniature/pdf/D4_Series.pdf if they are the low-force version, they require 75g to actuate.

I didn't have a digital scale to test anything else.
It's not what you take when you leave this world behind you, it's what you leave behind you when you go. - R. Travis.
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patrickl

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Re: Removing The Click From Cherry MicroSwitches And Get Better Response
« Reply #47 on: October 27, 2007, 11:33:42 am »
Patrick,

Thanks for the pictures, gives me some ideas.

BTW, I assume you realize that the switch you have pictured is the high-force variety and you are saying that you have low-force switches as well.
You're welcome and yes I have the standard force D42Y switches (75g). A comparable US version would probably be D42CR1-AA.

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FWIW, my Cherry switches are D44LR1-AA (from the markings on the side), and according to http://www.cherrycorp.com/english/switches/miniature/pdf/D4_Series.pdf if they are the low-force version, they require 75g to actuate.

I didn't have a digital scale to test anything else.
Ah ok, thought you had a E21 series switch (because of your picture) You could try a kitchen scale to test the force. I just pushed it on and noted when it clicked. Digital is easier to read, but it should work with analog too.

Technical Specification TS-D4-00001 D4 Miniature Switch Series (European version 2004)

BTW don't let the spring come off. I did and I see no way to get it back on  :P
« Last Edit: October 27, 2007, 11:35:29 am by patrickl »
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Re: Removing The Click From Cherry MicroSwitches And Get Better Response
« Reply #48 on: October 27, 2007, 11:46:51 am »
Incidentally, does anyone here know of a good source for microswitches? Places like Happ and Suzo only seem to carry a limited range and are also very overpriced.
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Re: Removing The Click From Cherry MicroSwitches And Get Better Response
« Reply #49 on: October 27, 2007, 12:11:52 pm »
Patrick - I posted the picture before I noticed what the side of the switch said.

Grasshopper - In the EU, you might try www.rapidonline.com - I ran across them on a google search for another project before I realized they were overseas.  In the US, you could try either www.mouser.com or www.newark.com and in Canada www.digi-key.com, although their prices seem to be a bit high.

(And other than mouser I can't say that these are great links but they all carry a good selection of electronics.)
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Re: Removing The Click From Cherry MicroSwitches And Get Better Response
« Reply #50 on: October 27, 2007, 12:27:45 pm »
Incidentally, does anyone here know of a good source for microswitches? Places like Happ and Suzo only seem to carry a limited range and are also very overpriced.
Other options could be electrical components webstores like RS-Components, Farnell or Conrad

Oddly enough the Saia G3 switches are lot more expensive at the UK branch of RS-Components than at the dutch one.
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Re: Removing The Click From Cherry MicroSwitches And Get Better Response
« Reply #51 on: October 27, 2007, 02:19:20 pm »
I was quite skeptical about piece 2 but it made a huge difference.  However, your button is also quite different, and I'm not sure how much it could really help.  The button in the original write-up by efjayel is what I have, and I can only assume it helps moderate the "snap" to the lower position.  Your button does not have much metal hanging past the contact positions, where piece 2 could provide a moderating influence.

But what do I know....

Yes, the second paper is a cushion. Like I mentioned before, the arm snaps or hammers up and down, when you press and release the button. This is the click. Paper 2 cushions the "press" and prevents the arm from hammering down on the contact but still allows it to make contact. Paper 1 simply prevents the "release" from making contact or hammering back into position but also leaves a smaller gap between the contacts allowing for a smaller throw distance which gives the button a better response.

I've tried both, only using paper 1 or only using paper 2. Either one will have lower noise but together they both complement each other both in sound and response.

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Re: Removing The Click From Cherry MicroSwitches And Get Better Response
« Reply #52 on: October 29, 2007, 06:53:45 am »
This mod is incredible!!!

Few things in this hobby have ever come along (1Up’s spring removal is now the close second) that cost so little and created such dramatic improvement in gameplay, and on top of it all are completely reversible if you decide the mod is not for you.

This is not a fair comment to make, and but from everything I have read about the Micro-Leaf switches, this mod does the exact same thing in terms of feel.  (I haven’t used the Micro-Leafs, but after modifying my switches, they feel like I remember the arcade games when I was growing up).  To clarify that statement, the following statements would apply to the modified switches and are about identical to what I have read from reviews of the Micro-Leaf’s

1)   Virtually silent - can be slightly heard outside of the panel, but generally are quieter than the sound of either the spring compressing or the plunger hitting the microswitch.
2)   No aural feedback - the clicking gives you a definite “now I have clicked the switch” feedback.  The modification removes this and the switches have significant overtravel.
3)   Faster response time.
4)   Less actuation force.
5)   Requires the original pushbutton spring for accurate feeling.

I really feel bad for RandyT posting this, b/c I liked and considered purchasing the Micro-Leafs, and I was sorry to see them crucified in the main forum over the product name without even a decent review, and then a mod comes out that delivers as best I can tell at least 80% of the same benefits for no cost other than a sheet of paper and an hour or so’s work.

The Test:

I modified all of my Player 1 buttons.  I previously was using Cherry D44L buttons without any springs in the pushbuttons (ala 1Up).  I put springs back in my P1B4 and P1B5 and unmodified P2B4 and P2B5 buttons.  I then configured MAME so P1B1 was either P1B1, P1B4, P2B1, P2B4, etc.  This way I had:
P1B1 and P1B2 - Modified switches with no springs.
P1B4 and P1B5 - Modified switches with springs.
P2B1 and P2B2 - Standard switches without springs (previous configuration).
P2B4 and P2B5 - Standard switches with springs (standard configuration).
I also modified one of my Prodigy joysticks.  These use Cherry D42Y switches which are identical to the ones PatrickL posted earlier.  Once you get used to the short throw, I really like the sticks, but the Cherry switches are by their nature clicky and since the Prodigy mounts above the panel with a metal mounting plate they are (were) very clicky joysticks.  It doesn’t affect gameplay as much as it just seems unrealistic.  (Keep in mind I don’t have an arcade machine, I have a desktop controller, so often the volume will be just loud enough for me to know that something off-screen exploded, so the clicking is likely much more distracting for me than it would be for most others.)

I then fired up Tiger-Heli.  If you have played this game, there is a red drum on top of a building on the right on the first stage that is worth 10,000 points if you shoot it enough times.  I remember in the arcades, I could usually hit this 7 out of 8 times I played the game, so I used this as my test (I could almost never do it with the keyboard, could do it about 40% of the time with the 1Up mod).

Test Results -
Modified without springs - There is almost instantaneous activation and it is very easy to get off shots, however, I think there may also be some “bounce” where if you aren’t careful you will get off more shots than you intended.  The big plus is there is no tactile feel of when the shot if firing, which is a biggie for arcade realism.  I think this is about the equivalent of leaf switches with the leaves adjusted for minimum travel.  Probably ideal for Galaga or Asteroids.  Hitting the barrel was easy.

Modified with springs - Activation is longer (seems to take longer - the distance would be the same, but there is more force (actually, there is more distance as well because the spring holds the plunger higher.)  This is what I remember from the arcades.  Hitting the barrel was pretty easy, but you had to concentrate on nailing the button, like the arcade game.  Feel was very good with no real lack of realism.  This is probably the most authentic and would also be a good setting for later games like Mortal Kombat that actually used micro-switch buttons.

Standard without springs - This is what I was used to using.  The click really takes away from it.  Not as much the sound as much as the constant awareness that “I am pushing the button down and now it’s clicking so the switch is closed.”  It’s not something that’s consciuously annoying, but it is there nonetheless.

Standard with springs - After being so used to without springs, I didn’t like this at all.  Travel is very long and it is very difficult to rapidly press the buttons.  Better than using a keyboard, but that’s about it.

Prodigy Joysticks - I saw no difference in gameplay.  I found the D42Y switches harder to modify but got 3 of the switches silent outside the panel and one much quieter than non-modified.  The modified stick still had slight clicking so apparently there is some noise of the actuator hitting the microswitch still present - but it is much quieter than the unmodified stick.  Both sticks are very responsive, so any increase in responsiveness was minimal, but that was not desired anyway. 

Conclusion - Tough call between the springs (arcade accurate) and without the springs (easier) If you give yourself 5 lives instead of 3 you probably won’t want the springs.  I’ll probably use them - I just have to find my old ones that I thought I’d never use again (I stole my admin button springs for the test.)  UPDATE: Found the old ones - good thing too, b/c after this if I had to buy new ones from RandyT they would likely be $2.70 each (price of the micro-leafs) or at least $1.35 each (price of full pusbuttons).  (j/k - kinda).

Tips and pointers:

I only did the Step 1 part of the mod (paper over the NC contact).  For me with that done, the switch was quieter than either the spring or the plastic plunger hitting the plastic actuator and I think there is a possibility of the Step 2 paper sliding down and shorting out the swing arm from hitting the NO contact, so good enough was fine for me.

For the D44L switches, I initially tried with a 5/8”x1/4” cut up business card.  This was too thick and resulted in the switch being stuck closed.  Next I tried a single 5/8x1/4” strip of 20lb paper.  This was too thin and didn’t stop the noise and also was free to slide out of position in the switch.  Finally, I ended up as ejfayel initially recommended, with a cut piece of 5/8x1/2” paper folded in half lengthwise.

The D42Y’s use much thicker plastic and feel more solid than the D44L’s.  They also have less internal free space.  When I tried with a 5/8x1/2” folded paper, the cover crushed the paper causing the switch to be stuck closed.  I didn’t mark exactly, but the solution was to cut 1/16” or so off the strip prior to folding it.  I also recommend putting the paper as far right (near the side that the terminals exit on) as possible.  The mod works fine with these changes.

I didn’t trust myself with a ruler and scissors to make straight lines, so I used a bunch of text boxes in Microsoft Word, printed that out and cut strips along the box edges.  I had 5/8”x3/8” strips with 1/8” gap between rows from the Honeywell test, but two rows plus gaps was perfect.  You can easily modify more than 50 switches from a single sheet.

Go ahead and cut the plastic rivet heads off the Cherry swithches.  You will destroy them taking the covers off anyway, and the covers will stay on without them.

After you remove the cover - check to be sure all the metal bits are still in the indentations designed for them, they tend to fall out from them.

As Patrick said, DO NOT  REMOVE THE COMMON GROUND, SWING ARM, SPRING, AND ACTUATOR ASSEMBLY.  I did and it took well over a half-hour to put it back and it wasn’t easy.  Ejfayel warned about this with the Honeywell switch style and that took five minutes by comparison.  Also, the D42Y’s are a bit prone to dropping the spring off as you remove the cover, and it is also a pain to get back on.

With the cover off, I pushed the actuator down and inserted the fold end of the paper first - it should look like Patrick’s earlier picture, but the paper will fit into the groove near the contacts and then wedge between that and the vertical part of the COM terminal.

Thanks again efjayel for discovering this!!!

Apologies to RandyT for doing a comparison based on hearsay.
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Re: Removing The Click From Cherry MicroSwitches And Get Better Response
« Reply #53 on: October 29, 2007, 02:48:29 pm »
Apologies to RandyT for doing a comparison based on hearsay.

While I don't think a comparison without actually comparing the items in question is appropriate, I do think that this mod provides an improvement to the stock switches.  But I honestly think that only part 1 should be done and that in a very controlled fashion, with the right materials to prevent maintenance problems down the road.

That being said, I have done a similar mod to a few switches here and while an improvement to the stock switch, they still do not respond the same way as the Micro-Leafs.  I don't want to crap all over this good thread with product info, but it's relevant due to the number of times it has come up here.

So here are the differences between this mod and the Micro-Leaf switch. 

The Micro-Leaf™:

Has less tactile feedback (Virtually none)

Is quieter (barring the use of the interference part #2, which probably will cause more problems than part #1)

Can be user adjusted from very sensitive, providing "hair trigger" performance by default, to being less sensitive by tweaking the metal blade as one would a leaf-switch.

Has a much lower actuation force.  Using a digital scale, actuation of the modified Cherry required roughly 3 times the force of the Micro-Leaf switch.

Does not have foreign material inside the switch that might break down and interfere with the contacts.  It doesn't take more than a few paper fibers between the contacts to cause a potential problem.

Doesn't require time consuming modification / maintenance.

Costs about as much as, or less than, a low actuation force standard microswitch, which still appears to require more force than the Micro-Leaf.


This is based on my tests and research with both items.  I'd be interested to hear the thoughts of other Micro-Leaf users on how the mod compares so it's not thought that my findings are skewed by bias. But they would have to take the time to modify a switch or two, so I don't know how likely that will be :).

RandyT

« Last Edit: October 29, 2007, 02:55:40 pm by RandyT »

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Re: Removing The Click From Cherry MicroSwitches And Get Better Response
« Reply #54 on: October 29, 2007, 03:38:47 pm »
Hmmmn, it's very tempting at this point to order a couple of Micro-Leafs just to do a valid comparision.

I still think these modified switches seem like what I am reading from your comments of the Micro-LeafsTM.  I'm not trying to be a jerk here, but here is how I see this:
But I honestly think that only part 1 should be done and that in a very controlled fashion, with the right materials to prevent maintenance problems down the road.
I ended up only doing Part I.  Too much potential problems from part II with only minimal probable gain.
 
Quote
The Micro-Leaf™:

Has less tactile feedback (Virtually none)
I'm not sure what you are going for here.  With the unmodified switches, there is aural feedback (you hear when the switch clicks).  With the modified ones, there really isn't any aural or tactile feedback when you are mashing buttons.  I suppose you could make the argument that if you slowly and deliberately depress the modified switches, you might feel when the plunger contacts the microswitch actuator (errm, colored tab part), and that might not happen on a Micro-Leaf, but it would happen on a normal leaf switch as well (I don't think the plunger is in contact with the top leaf when the switch is not depressed).

Quote
Is quieter (barring the use of the interference part #2, which probably will cause more problems than part #1)
Maybe, but as I said, the click is much quieter even with only #1 done and to me is quieter than either the compressing and expanding of the spring in the pushbutton assembly, or the pushbutton plunger hitting the colored tab of the switch, so I don't know that additional quieting would help.

Quote
Can be user adjusted from very sensitive, providing "hair trigger" performance by default, to being less sensitive by tweaking the metal blade as one would a leaf-switch.
I think you are pretty close to hair trigger with the modified switches without springs in the push-buttons.  You can also somewhat tweak the responsiveness by how many folds of paper you use in Step 1, although I'll admit bending the blade is less cumbersome.

Quote
Has a much lower actuation force.  Using a digital scale, actuation of the modified Cherry required roughly 3 times the force of the Micro-Leaf switch.
I would like to see detailed comparisons on actuation forces.
PatrickL's and both of my (unmodified) Cherry switches are 75g.
Patrick stated that an installed pushbutton with the Cherry switches and springs was 140g.
Patrick stated a leaf switch with the springs are 100g.
Cherry makes low force switches which are 15g, which if the math is correct would be 80g when installed in a pushbutton.

Would be curious to know the actuation force of the Modified Cherry's and the Micro-Leaf swithces (either in or out of the buttons), both of which are unknowns at this point.  (I'm not sure how much the mod reduces the actuation force, but it apparently reduces it enough that I thought I should add the 65g springs back in.)

Quote
Does not have foreign material inside the switch that might break down and interfere with the contacts.  It doesn't take more than a few paper fibers between the contacts to cause a potential problem.
Doesn't require time consuming modification.
Valid points (combined both into one quote).  (Although in my case, I probably need to bend the tabs on the Micro-Leafs, which takes some time (I won't pretend that's as long as modding the switches)).

Quote
Costs about as much as, or less than, a low actuation force standard microswitch, which still appears to require more force than the Micro-Leaf.
Agreed.  OTOH, most buttons already come with microswitches, so modding them costs a single sheet of printer paper and your time.  Using low-force switches or microleafs requires an investment of at least $2.75 per button (or twice what the basic button switch combo costs, still requires swapping the switches out (simple) and leaves you with a bunch of switches that you no longer need.
Quote
I'd be interested to hear the thoughts of other Micro-Leaf users on how the mod compares so it's not thought that my findings are skewed by bias. But they would have to take the time to modify a switch or two, so I don't know how likely that will be :).
I'd like to hear that too.
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Re: Removing The Click From Cherry MicroSwitches And Get Better Response
« Reply #55 on: October 29, 2007, 06:01:04 pm »
Has a much lower actuation force.  Using a digital scale, actuation of the modified Cherry required roughly 3 times the force of the Micro-Leaf switch.
The Saia Burgess G3 switches need only one fith (15g) the operating force of the switch I have (75g). What kind of "weight" are you talking about with the MicroLeafs, is it 25g?

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Costs about as much as, or less than, a low actuation force standard microswitch, which still appears to require more force than the Micro-Leaf.
I've seen the G3 switches for 72 cents (when ordering 5 or more).
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Re: Removing The Click From Cherry MicroSwitches And Get Better Response
« Reply #56 on: October 29, 2007, 06:14:50 pm »
Maybe it would be an idea to mount MicroLeafs or modified microswitches to a Leaf switch button assembly. I'm wondering if it's not the centered plunger that makes these feel better to me.
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Re: Removing The Click From Cherry MicroSwitches And Get Better Response
« Reply #57 on: October 29, 2007, 10:16:39 pm »
I'd really rather not continue on about the Micro-Leafs in this thread.  They really don't belong, as we are talking about two totally different types of switches here.

But I'll finish with the following; the actuation force of a Micro-Leaf is rated at 8 grams, almost half that of the "low force" standard switches.  Switches cost what they cost depending where you buy them, the specs  / brand you want and how many you purchase.  I've seen switches of these types costing several dollars each.  But, it doesn't matter what they cost if they never really get you where you want to be.  If they do, and you can get them cheap, you "win" :).

Also keep in mind that changing the position on the resistance curve doesn't alter the highest resistance.  It may alter the shape of the curve, but the actuation force (peak of the curve) will ultimately remain the same.  I tested the mod as you did without a spring in the pushbutton.  Because the internal resistance of the modded switch is intentionally dampened at higher plunger levels, the spring-less button has a "mushy" feel compared to the more snappy return of a Micro-Leaf equipped button with a spring in it. 

The pre-actuation travel of the plunger was also still longer. The actuation point does not move with the mod.  On the modded switch, the metal flexes and "snaps" at exactly the same point in the downward stroke.  You can get faster cycling if you can stop the up stroke at the right spot and continue downwards again, but there is no way to, say, move that "hair trigger actuation" to the top of the switch motion with this mod.

You will probably only understand the difference by actually comparing the two (as I have done.)  But if what you have with the mod is good enough for you, then there is no need to look further.  Likewise, there is also no need to state that what you are happy with is the same as something you haven't seen or used, as it just isn't the case here.

RandyT

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Re: Removing The Click From Cherry MicroSwitches And Get Better Response
« Reply #58 on: October 30, 2007, 05:30:54 am »
But I'll finish with the following; the actuation force of a Micro-Leaf is rated at 8 grams, almost half that of the "low force" standard switches. 
Cool  8)

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Switches cost what they cost depending where you buy them, the specs  / brand you want and how many you purchase.  I've seen switches of these types costing several dollars each.  But, it doesn't matter what they cost if they never really get you where you want to be.  If they do, and you can get them cheap, you "win" :).
Yeah really. Some microswitches seem to made of pure gold. I saw microswitches ranging in price from 30 cents up to 23 euro a piece in the list (same site that has 72 cent switches).
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Re: Removing The Click From Cherry MicroSwitches And Get Better Response
« Reply #59 on: October 30, 2007, 05:34:52 am »
I'm not sure how much the mod reduces the actuation force, but it apparently reduces it enough that I thought I should add the 65g springs back in.
Actually, I didn't notice a reduction in max operating force. Maybe it's just a feel thing? Pressing a leaf switch felt lighter to me than pressing the plunger of the microswitch. When in reality the leaf was stronger.
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Re: Removing The Click From Cherry MicroSwitches And Get Better Response
« Reply #60 on: October 30, 2007, 06:39:17 am »
Actually, I didn't notice a reduction in max operating force. Maybe it's just a feel thing? Pressing a leaf switch felt lighter to me than pressing the plunger of the microswitch. When in reality the leaf was stronger.
True, now that I think about it, the biggest problem I had with the mod without springs was that the buttons felt "too loose" or too easy to hit an accidental double-click.
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Re: Removing The Click From Cherry MicroSwitches And Get Better Response
« Reply #61 on: October 30, 2007, 06:53:58 am »
But I'll finish with the following; the actuation force of a Micro-Leaf is rated at 8 grams, almost half that of the "low force" standard switches.
Thanks Randy, that helps put it in perspective.  And your comments about the resistance curve and moving the actuation point makes sense also and helps me understand the difference.

Quote
Likewise, there is also no need to state that what you are happy with is the same as something you haven't seen or used, as it just isn't the case here.
I didn't quite say it was the same, I said it was 80% of the Micro-Leafs, based on what had been previously posted.  On second thought, maybe I shouldn't order the Micro-Leafs for comparison, b/c I have a feeling if I tried them I would never again settle for less.  :cheers:
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Re: Removing The Click From Cherry MicroSwitches And Get Better Response
« Reply #62 on: October 31, 2007, 04:31:06 am »
the actuation force of a Micro-Leaf is rated at 8 grams, almost half that of the "low force" standard switches.

Just how much force is that? Cause I've played some arcades before where the button was so sensitive that simply resting my finger on the button would activate it. Found that rather annoying.

Nice write up tiger-heli. Glad to see you really enjoy my mod and put it to use on different type microswithes.  ;D

Although, what is this 1up spring removal mod you speak of? I'd like to check that out.

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Re: Removing The Click From Cherry MicroSwitches And Get Better Response
« Reply #63 on: October 31, 2007, 07:03:30 am »
Just how much force is that? Cause I've played some arcades before where the button was so sensitive that simply resting my finger on the button would activate it. Found that rather annoying.
I don't want to drag Randy's product through the thread anymore, but to give you perspective -
PatrickL's and both of my (unmodified) Cherry switches are 75g.  (Coil spring switches)
Patrick stated that an installed pushbutton with the Cherry switches and springs was 140g.  (Which makes the spring in the pushbutton 65g).
Patrick stated a leaf switch with the springs is 100g.
Cherry makes low force switches which are 15g, which if the math is correct would be 80g when installed in a pushbutton.
Randy's switches are 8g - which is half of the low force cherry switches.  Now you are going to use the pushbutton springs with Randy's switches which makes the total activation force of Randy's pushbuttons about 73g.

So Randy's switches with the pushbutton springs and my switches without the pushbutton spring are about the same force.  (This is the unmodified switches, although it's debatable whether the mod changes the actuating force, although I added the springs back after the mod, so it made some change.)  Assuming your bent leaf spring switches are approximately the same force as the coil spring ones, you can approximate the force of Randy's switches by using an unmodified switch and removing the spring from the pushbutton.  (I am not implying that this will give you the feel of Randy's Micro-Leafs just that it should take the same force.)

Quote
Nice write up tiger-heli. Glad to see you really enjoy my mod and put it to use on different type microswithes.  ;D
I'm having a ball, I'll likely upload templates for the paper slips sometime next week.

Quote
Although, what is this 1up spring removal mod you speak of? I'd like to check that out.
It's simple and what I described above.  Basically, about 5 (or more?) years ago, member 1Up suggested removing the spring from inside of the plunger of a standard pushbutton and letting the spring of the microswitch provide the return on the plunger.  This does three things:
1)  Actuation is lighter, since you now have only 75g on the plunger from the microswitch, not 75g from the micro plus 60g from the spring.
2)  Actuation is faster, since the plunger is now resting directly on the microswitch and doesn't have to travel a few mm before making contact.
3)  Switch is a bit quieter b/c you don't have the "hammer" effect when the plunger hits the micro, and you don't get the metallic twanging you sometimes hear from the expansion and compression of the pushbutton spring.  (This is minor, though).

I highly recommended the mod with unmodified switches, but with the modified ones, I thought it made the switches too mushy, too likely to double-press, and too much of a hair-trigger like you described.
It's not what you take when you leave this world behind you, it's what you leave behind you when you go. - R. Travis.
When all is said and done, generally much more is SAID than DONE.

patrickl

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Re: Removing The Click From Cherry MicroSwitches And Get Better Response
« Reply #64 on: October 31, 2007, 07:40:29 am »
I don't want to drag Randy's product through the thread anymore
Why not? Both solutions try to achieve the same goal, so it does seem a fair comparison.

Anyway, I tried the light force (T-Stick replacement) switches and that makes a huge difference too. These switches (likemost joystick switches I guess) have a hinged lever over the plunger, but I doubt that matters much.

When there is no tough microswitch force building up it just feels much better. It feels more like the "glide on air" effect you get with leaf switches.

I'd love to be able to get some force graphs of the action (distance pressed vs force). I'm pretty sure the graph will tell why things feel better or worse.

I still have problems with the snap back not happening though. Maybe it's because I'm "trigger finger challenged", but when I fire in fast repeat I tend to miss shots because I don't let the button go up enough. Maybe paper piece 2 would help there.
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Re: Removing The Click From Cherry MicroSwitches And Get Better Response
« Reply #65 on: October 31, 2007, 08:07:58 am »
Why not? Both solutions try to achieve the same goal, so it does seem a fair comparison.
Partly b/c he stated he didn't want to discuss it in this thread, and mainly b/c I have no experience with it, so it would all be "Randy and other Micro-LeafTM users said it did this ..."

Quote
These switches (likemost joystick switches I guess) have a hinged lever over the plunger, but I doubt that matters much.
Seems to be a mixed bag there (if I am understanding you correctly).  The Prodigy joystick do not have this, nor from what I've read do Happ Comps.  Happ Supers and I think the Reunion's do, and Randy's Micro-Leaf's do, so it may make more difference than you think, but I can't say for sure.
Quote
I still have problems with the snap back not happening though. Maybe it's because I'm "trigger finger challenged", but when I fire in fast repeat I tend to miss shots because I don't let the button go up enough.
Did you have the springs in the pushbuttons installed.  There likely is a relationship between the actuation force and the amount of snap-back force, as I don't seem to notice much of a problem with that with the 75g switches, but that is just hypothesis as well.
It's not what you take when you leave this world behind you, it's what you leave behind you when you go. - R. Travis.
When all is said and done, generally much more is SAID than DONE.

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Re: Removing The Click From Cherry MicroSwitches And Get Better Response
« Reply #66 on: October 31, 2007, 08:57:33 am »
I still have problems with the snap back not happening though. Maybe it's because I'm "trigger finger challenged", but when I fire in fast repeat I tend to miss shots because I don't let the button go up enough.
Did you have the springs in the pushbuttons installed.  There likely is a relationship between the actuation force and the amount of snap-back force, as I don't seem to notice much of a problem with that with the 75g switches, but that is just hypothesis as well.
I tried with and without the spring and I have the problem both with the 25g and the 75g switches. It's more like I move my finger up and down fast to fire and sometimes it just doesn't come up far enough. Then the switch does not snap back and when I press down again nothing happens. Guess I should just lear to pull up my finger higher, but then I don't have the problem with leaf switches (not sure why not though).

In games it shows as an incomplete stream of shots.
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Re: Removing The Click From Cherry MicroSwitches And Get Better Response
« Reply #67 on: October 31, 2007, 09:32:19 am »
Patrick - you probably don't want to hear this, but I think that's somewhat what Randy was getting at with the hair-trigger activation.

FWIW, I've seen the incomplete stream of shots both in MAME and in the arcade (assuming those were leaf buttons), so I'm just used to it, I guess.

I've also seen players lay down a rapid sequence of shots in games like Asteroids (which were definitely leafs), although I was never great at that either.
It's not what you take when you leave this world behind you, it's what you leave behind you when you go. - R. Travis.
When all is said and done, generally much more is SAID than DONE.

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Re: Removing The Click From Cherry MicroSwitches And Get Better Response
« Reply #68 on: October 31, 2007, 11:30:53 am »
Patrick - you probably don't want to hear this, but I think that's somewhat what Randy was getting at with the hair-trigger activation.
Well I was protesting against the name rather than the product itself. Although for that much money I would opt to buy more leaf switches.

Quote
I was never great at that either.
I guess I should face the fact that I'm neither that great :P

Does make sense that "hair trigger" activation would reduce the issue. In fact, efjayel's mod does reduce it a bit already and by experimenting with "piece 2" it might even be better.
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Re: Removing The Click From Cherry MicroSwitches And Get Better Response
« Reply #69 on: October 31, 2007, 01:19:59 pm »
Does make sense that "hair trigger" activation would reduce the issue. In fact, efjayel's mod does reduce it a bit already and by experimenting with "piece 2" it might even be better.

Here's my take on it.  With the actuation point at the center of the throw, it's hard to know while playing that you have allowed the switch mechanism to return far enough to "reset" the action.  There is no reference you can use to know, so the result is overtravel or undertravel, leading to the issue you are experiencing.

If the moment of actuation was moved very close to the top of the motion, with the "reset" occurring just at the point where the button is at rest, one can use the a repetitive light tap and know that the button will fire every time.  This is far more difficult to do with the actuation buried in the middle of the travel.

The reason it works so well with a leaf switch setup is that the buttons themselves have very little resistance and when given a little pressure, rest on the leaf.  The leaf has more resistance than the button, so you have a tactile reference point and a very small amount of travel required beyond that point for activation.

RandyT

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Re: Removing The Click From Cherry MicroSwitches And Get Better Response
« Reply #70 on: October 31, 2007, 01:28:08 pm »
Templates attached - Word and PDF formats.

Each square is 0.5x0.625 inches with center-line on fold.  Each sheet modifies 180 switches.

I found that the squares folded to 0.25x0.625 work well for Step 1 for all three types the D4 series of switches with coil springs only.  (For these switches, you want to ensure the paper stays below the "lip" on the cover assembly for the microswitch).  For the Cherry Happ K-series switches, you want 0.4x0.625 folded to 0.2x0.625 or single sheets of 0.2x0.625 - Templates added for these, more below.

Happy modding!!!

I have some new news on this mod.

First off - I modified all the switches on my panel.  When I tested it, 3 of the switches showed they were stuck closed - two of the pinball flippers and the Shazaaam! Button (which are all vertical).  I pulled the wires to the switches, and when I pulled the lid of the panel up to pull the wires I noticed that the 6 button (Coin 2) came on.  I took this switch out and when I popped the cover off, the spring and sliding contact piece came out, so I think the switch may not have been properly re-assembled to begin with.  Oddly, I did not remove the remaining switches, but simply plugged the wires back in and they were working fine afterwards.

Based on the above and some other results that I will get to later, I am downgrading this mod to “not ready for commercial use” (especially with the Happ-Cherry microswitches that efjayel posted originally, although these were not the ones that gave me problems).  What I mean by that is, for example, RandyT’s switches are rated for 1,000,000 cycles (I think he said), and he can comfortably ship them across the country and be sure they will work.  These switches seem to work fine now, but I’m not counting on 100 games of Tiger-Heli without having to re-adjust them in my own panel, much less shipping them to someone else.  It is however a free and fairly simple mod to do and works quite well when done properly (and re-doing the mod or removing it when/if it fails is not a big deal either) - I encourage anyone that doesn’t like the clicking microswitches to at least give it a shot.

Three of the switches on my panel turned out to be the Happ-Cherry-Bent leaf switches that Efjayel described initially.  These are similar, but not identical to the Honeywell switches I had.  I found them easier to work on than the D44L and D42Y switches, but harder to modify.  The switches were identified as KWJA0017 95073301, so possibly we can find some specs on actuation force.  Done - http://www.cherrycorp.com/english/switches/miniature/k.htm - also 75g.  Cherry does make a 25g version of these.

Differences - I believe the KWJA’s are a later design.  The cover is easier to remove (no faux rivets to destroy or cut off), the top and bottom contact plates are identical, and all the pieces are firmly retained in the plastic.  The D44L and D42Y switches contact plates wobble a bit until the two halves are clicked together.  Also, the contacts themselves are centered on the KWJA’s and offset toward the outer cover on the D4 switches.  The D4 pivoting contact tends to torque and twist a bit as it actuates, but the coil spring gives it a much stronger “snap” as it pivots down.

KWJA modification:  These switches cannot be modified with the same paper that was used for the D4 switches.  What you want is a piece of 0.62x0.4 (not 0.5) paper folded tightly in half.  This sits in the valley of the bent spring actuator.  I tried this on one switch and got the switch to read open, briefly closed as the actuator was pressed, and then open again as the actuator was fully depressed.  This might explain Patrick’s missed shots if he was using these switches.  The solution for these switches is to move the paper further away from the contacts.  You want it back by the vertical section of the COM terminal, not wedged against the right side near the NO and NC terminals like you would on the D4 switches.  Even with that, I usually would get a switch that read stuck closed, but I could take a jeweler’s screwdriver and push up on the contact arm toward the NC contact and that would usually get the switch working fine.  However, with the D4 switches, I usually had a visual gap of at least a mm between the arm and the NO contact AFTER the paper was installed.  With the KWJA’s, I could just barely make out any gap or sometimes could not even make out a gap.  It seemed to work fine on the multi-meter, but it doesn’t give me a warm fuzzy on the longevity of the mod’s success.

D4 Modification:  About the only thing I learned is the switches can be finicky about the thickness of the paper used.  The paper seems to vary, thinnest to thickest as follows:
Tight fold, inserted crease first.
Loose fold, inserted crease first
Tight fold, inserted crease out
Loose fold, inserted crease out
Having the paper too thick results in the switch either stuck or sticking closed, too thin results in louder clicking (but still much quieter than unmodified).  I modded about 3/4ths of the switches loose fold, crease first, before I discovered this, and I DID NOT go back and re-do them.

Theory and talking points:

I don’t understand WHY the mod works.  Most of the noise to me seems to come from the switch hammering down, with a slight click when the switch is released.  This mod looks like it should quiet the release and not do much at all about the downstroke click, yet it works very well.

Hair-Trigger - On both the modded and non-modded D4’s, I did not have a digital scale, but using a multimeter, I was virtually unable to depress the plunger on the switch at all before the switch clicked down and registered closed.  With the plunger springs in the buttons removed, the button plunger literally rests on the switch plunger.  I don’t see how you could get faster actuation than that - granted, you don’t get a positive return as you would with the springs, but …

Feel - Again, I didn’t have a scale, but the mod significantly changes the feel of the D4 switches.  With the unmodified switches, there is moderate initial pressure, then as the coil spring snaps the swing arm down, the pressure is less as you continue to depress the switch, and as you release the switch, the pressure gradually increases until the switch snaps up, and then the pressure tapers back down.  With the modified switches, I don’t notice any change in resistance as the switch is pressed and released.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2007, 08:28:22 am by Tiger-Heli »
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When all is said and done, generally much more is SAID than DONE.

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Re: Removing The Click From Cherry MicroSwitches And Get Better Response
« Reply #71 on: November 01, 2007, 11:42:46 am »
Theory and talking points:

I don’t understand WHY the mod works.  Most of the noise to me seems to come from the switch hammering down, with a slight click when the switch is released.  This mod looks like it should quiet the release and not do much at all about the downstroke click, yet it works very well.

This is simply the effect of reducing momentum.  Shorter distance, less momentum, softer impact, less noise.

Quote
Hair-Trigger - On both the modded and non-modded D4’s, I did not have a digital scale, but using a multimeter, I was virtually unable to depress the plunger on the switch at all before the switch clicked down and registered closed.  With the plunger springs in the buttons removed, the button plunger literally rests on the switch plunger.  I don’t see how you could get faster actuation than that - granted, you don’t get a positive return as you would with the springs, but …

Every switch has a measurable actuation travel.  It's in the specs for the switch published by the manufacturer.  This number will not change with this mod.

RandyT

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Re: Removing The Click From Cherry MicroSwitches And Get Better Response
« Reply #72 on: November 01, 2007, 12:15:18 pm »
Every switch has a measurable actuation travel.  It's in the specs for the switch published by the manufacturer.  This number will not change with this mod.
Fair enough, but for these particular switches it appears to be 0.047 inches MAX, which I still say is barely measurable.
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Re: Removing The Click From Cherry MicroSwitches And Get Better Response
« Reply #73 on: November 01, 2007, 12:21:12 pm »
Every switch has a measurable actuation travel.  It's in the specs for the switch published by the manufacturer.  This number will not change with this mod.
Fair enough, but for these particular switches it appears to be 0.047 inches MAX, which I still say is barely measurable.

You do realize that it's a little over than 1/24th of an inch, right?  "Barely measurable" by my standards would require another zero to the right of the decimal point ;)

RandyT


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Re: Removing The Click From Cherry MicroSwitches And Get Better Response
« Reply #74 on: November 01, 2007, 12:28:15 pm »
You do realize that it's a little over than 1/24th of an inch, right?  "Barely measurable" by my standards would require another zero to the right of the decimal point ;)
To notice by feel?
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Re: Removing The Click From Cherry MicroSwitches And Get Better Response
« Reply #75 on: November 01, 2007, 12:39:25 pm »
To notice by feel?

Well, that would depend on who you talk to.  People who tweak their leaf switches for hair trigger actuation are probably leaving only a third of that distance between the contacts and there is no reset travel requirement.  While no microswitch based solution can claim to do that, ones with shorter actuation distances or the ability to be adjusted will get you closer.

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Re: Removing The Click From Cherry MicroSwitches And Get Better Response
« Reply #76 on: November 04, 2007, 12:47:19 pm »
Thanks for those templates Tiger-Hell. I added it to my original thread.

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Re: Removing The Click From Cherry MicroSwitches And Get Better Response
« Reply #77 on: July 07, 2008, 12:22:02 am »
So for those who've implemented this, how's the mod holding out?
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Re: Removing The Click From Cherry MicroSwitches And Get Better Response
« Reply #78 on: October 11, 2008, 12:16:29 pm »
Just thought I'd point out that I did this mod to 4 matsushita switches that were in one of my Seimitsu joysticks.  Works fine. :)  We'll see how it holds up over time, but dang it's a whole lot quieter now. :)
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Re: Removing The Click From Cherry MicroSwitches And Get Better Response
« Reply #79 on: October 11, 2008, 08:49:03 pm »

 Just thought Id point out that a bent metal piece made of 'spring steel'  IS A SPRING.
Its just not a  'Coil Spring'.

 
 As for the paper mod...  its wont last very long.  Also, because the springs tension
may be designed to operate effectively at certain distances... its new leverage
points and or distances  may eventually cause it to change enough to lose its springy-ness altogether.

 
 The biggest problem with Leafs is that they can get out of alignment because
they can bend past their intended positions.    Adding a bottom bracket to prevent
that would solve it.   You might even cushion the bottom of the switch with a
small piece of rubber.


 One could also use a smaller leaf switch,  and install it into a  Microswitch
type frame.   An additional spring might be nessessary to keep the leaf
from eventually staying closed.

 The hybrid leafs may not last quite as long as typical micros... however, they
would be a lot more responsive, and have no clicking.