DOT (Push/Pull) spinners released!

[OSCAR]

The DOT spinners are now available.  I  have updated www.oscarcontrols.com with the product info and they are ready to be ordered directly through the shopping cart on the website.

The repro DOT knobs (black anodized aluminum)  are scheduled to arrive the week of May 12th, next week.

If there are any questions, please don't hesitate to email me.  Thanks!

[shmokes]

God, how exciting.  I'll wait until the DOT repro knobs are released to decide between one of those and one of the new tornado knobs, but you'll have my order soon.

Speaking of those new skirted tornado knobs, have you been able to confirm beyond educated speculation whether they are 100% compatible with your new spinner yet?

Thanks again Kelsey, I don't know what we'd all do if you ever lost interest in this hobby  .

[OSCAR]

Based on some email correspondence I've had with Christian, I see no reason why his knobs won't work with my DOT spinner.  I see on his website he has changed the set screw height from what he told me it was going to be, but it should still be okay.

Thanks for your comments, Shmokes.  I still have a few more products I'm currently working on that should be pretty exciting, too!  

[mahuti]

JUST BOUGHT MINE!!! I've been waiting for one of these to come out for YEARS!! OR, I was waiting for someone to have a good hack, but I haven't seen one. Thank you, thank you, thank you.

Now I just have to wait for the DOT top.

[Wienerdog]

I'm in, just waiting for the repro knob.

[JustMichael]

Got a pic of the DOT repro knobs?  Also give us a yell when they come in...

[OSCAR]

Got a pic of the DOT repro knobs?  Also give us a yell when they come in...

There is a 3D model of the shop detail in this thread:  http://www.arcadecontrols.org/yabbse/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=6411;start=0.

Also later in that thread is a photo of a real DOT knob, but it's not a very good pic of it.

[KevSteele]

Talk about speedy service -- the FedEx man dropped off an Oscar Controls DOT spinner this afternoon.

First impressions: Big and heavy, and quick and responsive. Sound like a contradiction? It is, but this entire spinner is a unique piece of gaming goodness. I'm impressed.

I'm going to be writing a full review once I get the matching DOT knob, but in the meantime you can see some pics and more first impressions on my site:

http://users.adelphia.net/~kevsteele/mame/index.html

Kevin

[shmokes]

Alright Kev, you are now the only person on the face of the planet to put the issue definitively to rest.  Does the new tordado skirted spinner knob work fine with Oscar's DOT spinner.  Is it 100% compatible?  How does it feel?  Do they make a nice combination?

[KevSteele]

Alright Kev, you are now the only person on the face of the planet to put the issue definitively to rest.  Does the new tordado skirted spinner knob work fine with Oscar's DOT spinner.  Is it 100% compatible?  How does it feel?  Do they make a nice combination?

I've got some bad news, at least so far -- I haven't been able to get the Tornado knob to work with the DOT spinner.

I'm not yet positive it's a design problem, though -- the problem so far is that the Tornado knob just doesn't fit properly onto the DOT shaft. The fit is too tight. We're probably talking minor tolerances, since both the Tornado and the DOT spinner use 1/4" shafts.

I was able to get the knob on once, but I'm not certain I was able to get it fully on the shaft, as I was unable to get the set screws to "grip" the shaft. Either they were set too high, or I just couldn't get the knob on far enough. I pushed, but I'm not quite ready to start hammering to make things fit.  

I'm hesitant to start Dremeling my skirted knob just to make it fit, but I'll try again later today. So far, however, things don't look good.

Kevin

[OSCAR]

I've got some bad news, at least so far -- I haven't been able to get the Tornado knob to work with the DOT spinner.

I'm not yet positive it's a design problem, though -- the problem so far is that the Tornado knob just doesn't fit properly onto the DOT shaft. The fit is too tight. We're probably talking minor tolerances, since both the Tornado and the DOT spinner use 1/4" shafts.

I was able to get the knob on once, but I'm not certain I was able to get it fully on the shaft, as I was unable to get the set screws to "grip" the shaft. Either they were set too high, or I just couldn't get the knob on far enough. I pushed, but I'm not quite ready to start hammering to make things fit.  

I'm hesitant to start Dremeling my skirted knob just to make it fit, but I'll try again later today. So far, however, things don't look good.

Kevin

It was in the back of my mind that this could possibly happen, but I wasn't sure so I didn't say anything until someone confirmed it.  I agree that this is very likely just a tolerance issue.

The shaft on the DOT spinner is machined to .250" and my knobs are designed with a standard .002" clearance.

It is not uncommon for some designers or fabricators to take a couple thousandths or less off the shaft diameter when using the style of bearing found on Christian's spinner.  Then if Christian's spinner knobs would be designed for a .002" clearance for a very slightly undersized shaft, then that could cause the problem Kevin discovered.  This is total speculation, but a possibility.

Another possibility is that the hole diameter on Kevin's skirted knob is on the low side of the allowable tolerance and the shaft diameter on this particular DOT is on the high side, thus making his particular combination not easily workable.  I guess I wouldn't be too concerned about this yet until we hear a few more reports of similar findings, then it would point to incompatible design tolerances.

[KevSteele]

Okay, good news time!

I took a 1/4" drill bit and used it to slightly widen the inside of the Tornado skirted knob. It now fits on the Oscar shaft, and the set screws do engage properly.

We're probably talking tolerances in the 1/100th of an inch range, but that's all it takes to mess things up.

The Tornado skirted knob is great with the Oscar Up/Down spinner so far - the knob allows you to easily grip and push/pull while spinning.

That said, I don't know yet how the skirted knob will work with the Oscar spinner once the spinner installed, but I'll post back my findings when I do. (I haven't had the time yet, give me a few hours!)

I'll be posting a pic of the DOT spinner with the skirted knob in a few minutes on my site.

[Brax]

Wheeee! Tolerance crashes! Working in Quality I find all this stuff really interesting and kinda fun.   Ok, I'm wierd. You guys already knew that!

If it's a minor tolerance crash like Kev and Oscar say, Kev's right. It won't take any more than a quick drilling. Going into aluminum won't be a problem either. No biggie.

How's the weight of the tornado skirted spinner work with the Oscar springs? Are the springs up to the extra weight?

[KevSteele]

It apparently was a very minor tolerance issue -- I just ran the drill slowly for a second, and only got out a tiny bit of aluminum shavings. A very simple fix, and I could have probably just hand-turned the drill bit to get the same result.

The Tornado skirted knob is actually just about the same weight as the Oscar aluminum knob, so the weight isn't an issue. I doubt any of the aluminum knobs are more than an ounce different in weight, if that.

I got stuck with lots of household stuff today, so I didn't get a chance to mount it yet. Tomorrow, hopefully!

Kevin

[KevSteele]

A brief follow-up to my tolerance problem:

Today, I tried to remove the SlikStik Skirted knob from the Oscar Up/Down spinner. It wouldn't budge. This seemed strange to me, as it slid on fairly easily.

After a lot of pulling and some WD-40, I finally got the knob off.  

Why had it stuck? After looking closely at the DOT shaft, I noticed that the set screws had "dimpled" the shaft where they had contacted it. I hadn't set them that hard (I thought!), but they had apparently put small bumps into the shaft where they contacted it.

These "dimples" (holes + a ridge around the hole) thickened the shaft at those points, locking the knob onto the shaft.

This shouldn't be a problem when you've put the final knob on an installed DOT spinner, but it was a problem with all the knob-swapping I plan on doing. I sanded down the dimples, but I'm going to have to watch the set screws with future knobs.

Kevin

[shmokes]

After a lot of pulling and some WD-40, I finally got the knob off.  

and cussing...

[OSCAR]

A brief follow-up to my tolerance problem:

Today, I tried to remove the SlikStik Skirted knob from the Oscar Up/Down spinner. It wouldn't budge. This seemed strange to me, as it slid on fairly easily.

After a lot of pulling and some WD-40, I finally got the knob off.  

Why had it stuck? After looking closely at the DOT shaft, I noticed that the set screws had "dimpled" the shaft where they had contacted it. I hadn't set them that hard (I thought!), but they had apparently put small bumps into the shaft where they contacted it.

These "dimples" (holes + a ridge around the hole) thickened the shaft at those points, locking the knob onto the shaft.

This shouldn't be a problem when you've put the final knob on an installed DOT spinner, but it was a problem with all the knob-swapping I plan on doing. I sanded down the dimples, but I'm going to have to watch the set screws with future knobs.

Kevin

What kind of set screws are used on Christian's knobs?  The end-style, I mean.  Cup, Cone, Flat, etc?

Some set screw types, like cones, will do this because they are intended for permanent setting and not for swapping out parts.

[KevSteele]

After a lot of pulling and some WD-40, I finally got the knob off.  

and cussing...

Oh yeah...  

It was on so hard I had to put on gloves to hold the DOT encoder wheel while I struggled to slide the SlikStik knob off. For a few minutes I was convinced I would never get the *$&! knob off.

Then I completely removed the set screws, squirted in some WD40, and things began to budge...

Thank the maker of WD40!

[SlikStik-Christian]

A brief follow-up to my tolerance problem:

Today, I tried to remove the SlikStik Skirted knob from the Oscar Up/Down spinner. It wouldn't budge. This seemed strange to me, as it slid on fairly easily.

After a lot of pulling and some WD-40, I finally got the knob off.  

Why had it stuck? After looking closely at the DOT shaft, I noticed that the set screws had "dimpled" the shaft where they had contacted it. I hadn't set them that hard (I thought!), but they had apparently put small bumps into the shaft where they contacted it.

These "dimples" (holes + a ridge around the hole) thickened the shaft at those points, locking the knob onto the shaft.

This shouldn't be a problem when you've put the final knob on an installed DOT spinner, but it was a problem with all the knob-swapping I plan on doing. I sanded down the dimples, but I'm going to have to watch the set screws with future knobs.

Kevin

Kevin,

   We did our homework (as I am sure Kelsey has also done) before sending out our spinners. This could only happen because on one thing, low quality shafts *no pun intended* in the testing phase of manufacturing the Tornado spinner we had purchased some shafts that had the same result, the out come was the shafts were not case hardened steel, which in turn causes a

[OSCAR]

Kevin,

   We did our homework (as I am sure Kelsey has also done) before sending out our spinners. This could only happen because on one thing, low quality shafts *no pun intended* in the testing phase of manufacturing the Tornado spinner we had purchased some shafts that had the same result, the out come was the shafts were not case hardened steel, which in turn causes a

[KevSteele]

What kind of set screws are used on Christian's knobs?  The end-style, I mean.  Cup, Cone, Flat, etc?

They are cone-shaped tips. Pointy, basically.  

I haven't looked closely at the set screws on the Oscar knobs -- what type do you use?

Kevin

[OSCAR]

What kind of set screws are used on Christian's knobs?  The end-style, I mean.  Cup, Cone, Flat, etc?

They are cone-shaped tips. Pointy, basically.  

I haven't looked closely at the set screws on the Oscar knobs -- what type do you use?

Kevin

Here is the answer from an experienced mechanical engineer....

Cone point set screws are supposed to dimple the shaft.  If the correct shaft material is used, the part the cone point set screw is holding on will be very difficult to remove (which is how I guessed what kind of set screw was used).  That it is the reason for using them because they are only intended for permanent setting.  Using a cone point set screw, and then having to use a case hardened shaft to offset the dimple effect is counter-productive and why I said that the wrong set screw was probably used.  I certainly am not trying to put a bad light on Christian's product, this is a very easy thing to mess up.  Many of the engineers that work for me have done the same thing simply because they didn't realize that the wrong combination can cause this to happen.  I also certainly don't look down on Christian for using this type of set screw, it is such a minor detail that it is nothing to get upset about....

This is also a very easy fix.  Any local hardware store or Home Depot will carry a cup point set screw which would be preferred for this type of application.  I'm not sure what size set screw Christian's knobs uses, but a cup point replacement should be readily available.

I use cup points on my spinner knobs.