Suggestion for OSCAR.....

[Grasshopper]

The overwhelming majority of people who build their own control panels seem to use wood because it is far easier to work with than metal if you only have ordinary DIY tools available.

Unfortunately most arcade joysticks appear to be designed for, or at least optimised to work best with, metal panels.

The problem is that most of the available arcade joysticks have a shaft that is too short to be mounted in wood. Most people use one of the following solutions to this problem and none of them are ideal.

1. You can route out the underside of the panel. However if you route out more than 1/4" or so (which is generally not enough) you risk making the panel too weak. The problem is even worse if you also choose to countersink the joystick mounting bolts as this further reduces the effective thickness of the wood.

2. You can mount the joystick from the top possibly with the help of a mounting plate. The problem with this is that it requires very accurate routing. Also using this method makes it almost impossible to get the top of the panel flat so you end up having to cover the mounting plate with thick plexiglass or laminate so that the area around the joystick does not sag. This ironically makes the panel even thicker, and adds to the expense.

3. You can buy an adjustable height joystick. Unfortunately most joysticks do not adjust enough to compensate fully for the thickness of a typical wooden panel. For example the height of the Happ Super can only be adjusted by 1/4" and most wooden panels are 3/4" thick. Also, I believe most joysticks work best at their standard (metal mounting) height. If you increase the height of a joystick you also inclease its throw which in turn subtly changes its feel.

I have a suggestion for a fourth alternative. One of my joysticks (made I believe by Seimitsu) came with a metal mounting plate which is shown in the attached diagram. Please excuse the poor drawing, I haven't got a digital camera so I can't take a photograph.

The mounting plate allows the joystick to be embedded about 1/2" into the underside of a wooden panel (although it almost certainly wasn't designed for that purpose as Seimitsu joysticks are normally fitted to Naomi cabinets). This obviously requires the use of a router but you don't need to be particularly accurate. I have fitted the joystick to a 3/4" thick panel and it works fine even though the shaft is very short. The points where the plate is bolted to the wood are the full 3/4" thickness. Therefore there is no danger of the wood breaking.

I am wondering whether you would consider designing a similar plate for the Happ and Ultimarc joysticks as you also sell flat mounting plates for use with your restrictors.

Thanks for your time.

[Nailz]

Most of the available joysticks are too short to be mounted in wood?  I have used both Happs and Wico in 3/4" control panels and they have worked great with no routing at all.  I'll be curious what other people think and have experienced.

[Chris]

My Happ Supers are mounted in 3/4" wood with no routing and no problems.

--Chris

[shmokes]

It's a great design, no question.  That would be very helpful, especially for the 4-way pacman and the new ms-pacman/galaga sticks.

[Veto]

I think it's more of a personal preference.  My Happ supers are also mounted on 3/4" wood with no routing, and I think they're too short.  When I rebuild the cp I'll be doing some routing most likely.  

Does anyone use the top fire button supers?  They look longer and if all else is the same it would be nice  for Tron and Ikari warriors, which are pretty unplayable with a spinner and regular super.  Curious to see what people think of them.  Don't want to go to rotaries...

[M-80]

Well, I've noticed that Happ sells the Pac Man type ball joysticks with a shallow shaft, but Ultimarc sells the J-Stick which looks like a Pac Man stick but has a longer shaft.

Compare:

Happ's offerings:


Now Ultimarc's:


Come to think of it... I think I remember playing with a CP sometime in the distant past that had a ball joystick sunk deep in the cabinet. LOL Unless BYOCP is a new phenomenon. maybe it's just a phantom memory.

[OSCAR]

This mounting plate is an interesting idea.  Just so I'm clear, the intended purpose of the plate is to reinforce the control panel where it has been routed out, correct?  This kind of part is certainly feasible, and probably wouldn't be all that expensive.  I'd have to send it out to get prices, but I'd guess right now probably around $10 or so.  Would there be much interest in something like this?

I put together a quick cross section based on your sketch and info.  Does it look about right?

[paigeoliver]

You guys who buy everything from Happs probably don't realize the wood/metal problem. Since most of their sticks have looooooong handles.

With that said. The vast majority of original joysticks from the old days have short, short handles that are too short for wood panels. With those sticks you really can't use anything thicker than about .25 of an inch.

[paigeoliver]

Now here is an idea for a product that people WOULD buy.

Metal control panel tops with the holes precut for common components.

That is what I got. I had someone make me mine, and it worked out great. I just bolted my (short shafted) joysticks, buttons, and trackball right onto it.

You would really only need two basic sizes (small 2 player size and large 4 player size), with maybe a few options as to which controls it has cut outs for.

[anthony691]

I can definatly see this being worth it to make...

I would like a Pac-man stick, but it dosn't fit properly in my CP. I think this would be nice

[DZuroff]

I have seen messages in the past talking about mounting the joysticks by screwing them from the bottom.  The problem that was mentioned with this is that in some cases the wood underneath the joy would actually break right off of the control panel under excessive force.  Could this metal bracket perhaps help prevent this from happening?

[MinerAl]

Oscar-
I like the idea.  I have a few Wico 4-ways from a Karate Champ conversion, and a support bracket would be great for mounting them to a wooden CP.  

I wonder if it would be possible to bevel the edges of the mounting holes on the metal bracket, so that (terminology fails me...) the-screws-with-cone-shaped-heads-that-are-flat-on-top could be placed in them.  The tops of the screws would be flush with the top of the metal support bracket and not go through the wood at all, making the screws which are 5.5" apart on your schematic bear the weight of the joystick.   This would make for a joystick with no bolt heads around, making for a cleaner look.

Wha'd'ya think?

[Magnet_Eye]

I'd buy one. I want one of those galaga/ms pacman sticks. They are only $16 from bob roberts. That plus $10 for the plate would be feasible for me.

I say GO FOR IT OSCAR!!!

 

[M-80]

You guys who buy everything from Happs probably don't realize the wood/metal problem. Since most of their sticks have looooooong handles.

With that said. The vast majority of original joysticks from the old days have short, short handles that are too short for wood panels. With those sticks you really can't use anything thicker than about .25 of an inch.

Well, as you can see, the short ball sticks are from Happ and the long stick is from a company named Ultimarc. And the J-Stick can be set to 4 way.

http://www.happcontrols.com/joysticks/joysticks_amusement.htm
http://www.ultimarc.com/controls.html

How would Plexiglass (the rather thick kind) instead of metal hold up against pressure? You could put a piece of Plexiglass and under that an underlay made of something sturdier than paper. Maybe the Plexiglass would bend too much and snap I guess.

Maybe a sheet of metal with one edge bent over the edge of the wood cabinet to avoid cuts and sand it down, screw the metal to the wood in the 3/4" wood near the routed area (to make it sturdy), then screw the joystick through the thin routed part through the metal. Add the mounting plate to make it more sturdy. Maybe put the outer screws through the upper metal plate down through the wood and through the mounting plate.

Maybe even bend the edge further at a 90

[AX]

i used both tstick and happ's and they are both 2 short inmy opinion.  Wht i did was route the TOP of the CP and then drill a whole in the lexan so that you cant see the mounting plate.  as for the plate you guys are talking about I think it is a great idea.

[paigeoliver]

My vote is still for pre drilled metal panels. If you made them a bit larger at the edges, then people could trim them down to fit their own cabinets. Not that many people would even have to trim them, since most cabinet builders could just buiild their control panel box to the size of the premade panel.

The other nice thing about predrilled metal panels is that they allow you to use trackballs and such without mounting plates.

A flat predrilled panel probably would not cost more to make then a couple of mounting plates would.

In fact, Oscar could probably make a bit more money by selling them with his spinner pre-installed. Or maybe even selling them with all the controls pre-installed. Then all you would have to do is add your encoder, and trim the edges to fit your control panel box.

[anthony691]

My vote is still for pre drilled metal panels. If you made them a bit larger at the edges, then people could trim them down to fit their own cabinets. Not that many people would even have to trim them, since most cabinet builders could just buiild their control panel box to the size of the premade panel.

The other nice thing about predrilled metal panels is that they allow you to use trackballs and such without mounting plates.

A flat predrilled panel probably would not cost more to make then a couple of mounting plates would.

In fact, Oscar could probably make a bit more money by selling them with his spinner pre-installed. Or maybe even selling them with all the controls pre-installed. Then all you would have to do is add your encoder, and trim the edges to fit your control panel box.

I usaully seem to agree with you, not on this one. How do just "trim" Metal? Jig saws are a pain. Metal is not nice to work with! Instead I used plexi (1/4 inch on my CP so it would be thin enough to fit on my Konomi cab.

[dirt]

How do just "trim" Metal?

A hacksaw and a file would get the job done fast and easy.A bench grinder is even easier for cleaning up the edges.

[M-80]

What do you guys think a homemade metal panel vs pre-made metal panel would cost? I have a place near here that bends and cuts metal sheeting for you to specifications. They use a big metal bending machine which obviously private citizens can't afford.

Back in high school we cut sheet metal with a non-motorized tool. I forget if it only cut edges or routed holes as well. It might be worth it to ask your local high school or university if they have a metal shop or class that takes orders for a nominal fee.

[Grasshopper]

This mounting plate is an interesting idea.  Just so I'm clear, the intended purpose of the plate is to reinforce the control panel where it has been routed out, correct?  This kind of part is certainly feasible, and probably wouldn't be all that expensive.  I'd have to send it out to get prices, but I'd guess right now probably around $10 or so.  Would there be much interest in something like this?

I put together a quick cross section based on your sketch and info.  Does it look about right?

Nice diagram, it puts my efforts to shame.

Yes, that is essentially what I mean. The only difference is that I would probably have the outer 4 bolts going right through the wood but with the bolt heads recessed, and I would not have the inner 4 bolts going through the wood at all. I've done a quick sketch to show what I mean. I suppose some people might deliberately have the 4 inner bolt heads showing to give their panel a retro feel but I don't think it would be necessary.

This is why I think a reinforcing plate would be a good idea. If you route out the underside of the panel and recess the bolt heads then I think you are pushing your luck with the wood thickness.

I forgot to mention - the plate would ideally also come with holes to mount joysticks that have a non-standard mounting pattern such as the T-Stik.

I have my doubts about the pre-cut metal panel idea partly because you would not have an opportunity to design your own button layout. Also cutting metal with home tools is very hard work in my experience. And it would be large and heavy and therefore expensive to post. You may as well buy something pre-built like an X-Arcade or something.

[OSCAR]

I agree that pre-made metal panels would be pretty neat, I was even considering it for my own cabinet.  However, in order to make them affordable they would need to be fabricated in volume.  I would imagine a typical 2 Player, 6 (or 7) button layout with a 3" trackball between the players would be about the most universal layout that you could come up with that would suit most builders.  I think a bigger concern would be the overall panel dimensions.  So many people have different sized cabinets, either scratch-built or converted, that I wouldn't be sure how to size it so it would fit most people's requirements.  Any other characteristics such as bends or lips in the panel would just increase the cost and be more of a hinderance than an advantage to a lot of people, too.  I think quite a bit of research would be required before I seriously look at this one.

If I were to go ahead with the joystick mounting plate I would be sure to include mounting holes for all of Ultimarc's sticks, that would be a given.  I'll have to think about this one some more, but I believe that there may be some potential here.  I'm in the process of developing a couple more products right now, so these plates would come after those if I decide to do them.

[shmokes]

If you had those plates available within the next month I'd be purchasing seven of them.  I think they are a fantastic idea, but I should have my panel built by then.  As it is I'm already going to be buying one of your existing mounting plates for a pac/galaga stick.  I really think these are a fantastic, yet exraordinarily simple idea.  Who knows, if you ever decide to put them into production I may just have to upgrade (especially if I've managed to rip a joystick through my panel by then.

[anthony691]

I agree that pre-made metal panels would be pretty neat, I was even considering it for my own cabinet.  However, in order to make them affordable they would need to be fabricated in volume.  I would imagine a typical 2 Player, 6 (or 7) button layout with a 3" trackball between the players would be about the most universal layout that you could come up with that would suit most builders.  I think a bigger concern would be the overall panel dimensions.  So many people have different sized cabinets, either scratch-built or converted, that I wouldn't be sure how to size it so it would fit most people's requirements.  Any other characteristics such as bends or lips in the panel would just increase the cost and be more of a hinderance than an advantage to a lot of people, too.  I think quite a bit of research would be required before I seriously look at this one.

If I were to go ahead with the joystick mounting plate I would be sure to include mounting holes for all of Ultimarc's sticks, that would be a given.  I'll have to think about this one some more, but I believe that there may be some potential here.  I'm in the process of developing a couple more products right now, so these plates would come after those if I decide to do them.

Sorry, metal pre-made cps, I can't see that working I wish, but I know it couldn't work. So many different layouts, sizes, joysticks, desired plexi... it couldn't work (IMHO) The predrilled CP in my Konomi cab had a NEO-GEO layout on the buttons and a trackball dead center w/ conflicts with some buttons. These "conflicts" make it slightly custimizible.

[paigeoliver]

Sorry, metal pre-made cps, I can't see that working I wish, but I know it couldn't work. So many different layouts, sizes, joysticks, desired plexi

You don't use plexi with metal panels. There is no reason too. The only reason you use plexi is to cover up the old holes in a multiply converted cabinet. Actual dedicated games did not have plexi on the control panel. Well, I can't vouch for EVERY game, but I know that Atari, Williams, Midway, Gottlieb, Centuri, and Stern games did not have plexi (so that accounts for 95 percent of games).

[shmokes]

I think, perhaps, that it has been a very long time since you've visited an arcade, paigeoliver.  

[paigeoliver]

I think, perhaps, that it has been a very long time since you've visited an arcade, paigeoliver.  

I go to Dave & Busters all the time. Their dedicated games have no plexi, while their 2 rows of conversion showcase cabinets all have plexi, because they are drilled out underneath from previous conversions.

Plexi is a lot like a lock bar or scratches in the sideart. They might be on most every game you see, but they didn't come out of the box that way.

[JoyMonkey]

Sorry, metal pre-made cps, I can't see that working I wish, but I know it couldn't work. So many different layouts, sizes, joysticks, desired plexi... it couldn't work (IMHO) The predrilled CP in my Konomi cab had a NEO-GEO layout on the buttons and a trackball dead center w/ conflicts with some buttons. These "conflicts" make it slightly custimizible.

I found this guy at Chrysalis Design, who sells cocktail cabinet kits. They supply standard pre-cut control panels to Ms.Pac-Man specs, and standard cocktail un-cut panels. But I found that if you ask nicely, for a very small price he can get metal control panels custom cut to your specific CP layout.

http://arcadedepot.com/cocktail_hardware.html

I think metal pre-made CPs are definitely  an option, and shouldn't be ruled out.

[anthony691]

Sorry, metal pre-made cps, I can't see that working I wish, but I know it couldn't work. So many different layouts, sizes, joysticks, desired plexi

You don't use plexi with metal panels. There is no reason too. The only reason you use plexi is to cover up the old holes in a multiply converted cabinet. Actual dedicated games did not have plexi on the control panel. Well, I can't vouch for EVERY game, but I know that Atari, Williams, Midway, Gottlieb, Centuri, and Stern games did not have plexi (so that accounts for 95 percent of games).

Okay, I know I needed plexi to hold on my art! I know most dedicated games didn't, don't have plexi (depends on what the operator does), Plexi protects CP underlays from getting peeled off; it also protects them from dirt.

I know it is unimportant, but

but I know that Atari, Williams, Midway, Gottlieb, Centuri, and Stern games did not have plexi (so that accounts for 95 percent of games).

That dosn't even come close to 95%! (not even of American games)


PS: sort of a plus with predrilled panels, you could have predrilled plexi

[paigeoliver]

Hee hee. Ok my 95 percent might have just been off by a bit. But the only game I have ever seen with factory plexi was an Artic bootleg King & Balloon.

[Lilwolf]

The trouble I see is that the designs requires an  exact routing depth that just doesn't really happen.  If there is any space in there, the wood might break down.

If the plates are seperate... and have a way to connect them as any point.

[bearman001]

This should work.  I would recommend using and adhesive of some sort (Liquid nails/PL construction adhesive) between the MDF and the metal plate.  Also, you should be able to get what you need fabricated locally for a fairly reasonable price ($10-20 for a set) from any local Heating and Air Conditioning contractor.  They can fabricate that very easily in their shop, as they make items out of sheet metal to order on a daily basis.  They could also make the control panels and pre-drill/punch the holes in them.  I would recommend wiping down any sheet metal with vinegar before painting it or gluing it, as it often has a small amount of oil on it from the manufacturing process.

I hope this helps.

[SirPeale]

Sorry, metal pre-made cps, I can't see that working I wish, but I know it couldn't work. So many different layouts, sizes, joysticks, desired plexi

You don't use plexi with metal panels. There is no reason too. The only reason you use plexi is to cover up the old holes in a multiply converted cabinet. Actual dedicated games did not have plexi on the control panel. Well, I can't vouch for EVERY game, but I know that Atari, Williams, Midway, Gottlieb, Centuri, and Stern games did not have plexi (so that accounts for 95 percent of games).

I've got an original Street Fighter II CP that begs to differ.

[Grasshopper]

The trouble I see is that the designs requires an  exact routing depth that just doesn't really happen.  If there is any space in there, the wood might break down.

If the plates are seperate... and have a way to connect them as any point.

I don't really see that as being a problem.

Although 1/4" thick wood is not strong enough to safely bolt a joystick onto (IMHO) it is still fairly strong. Bear in mind that there would be no pressure on the area of wood just above the joystick.

If you accidentally routed too deep and wanted to play safe you could simply apply some wood filler to the routed out area and then screw the metal plate into place. The plate would then mould the wood filler to exactly the right depth.

This is another advantage to building your panel out of wood, it is easy to correct small mistakes with wood filler....

[Sprucemoose]

I think the metal piece should be flush with the top of the CP.  Most people cover their CP with art or laminate which should mask the metal.  

[anthony691]

Sorry, metal pre-made cps, I can't see that working I wish, but I know it couldn't work. So many different layouts, sizes, joysticks, desired plexi

You don't use plexi with metal panels. There is no reason too. The only reason you use plexi is to cover up the old holes in a multiply converted cabinet. Actual dedicated games did not have plexi on the control panel. Well, I can't vouch for EVERY game, but I know that Atari, Williams, Midway, Gottlieb, Centuri, and Stern games did not have plexi (so that accounts for 95 percent of games).

I've got an original Street Fighter II CP that begs to differ.

But the majority had/have no plexi.

[paigeoliver]

Sorry, metal pre-made cps, I can't see that working I wish, but I know it couldn't work. So many different layouts, sizes, joysticks, desired plexi

You don't use plexi with metal panels. There is no reason too. The only reason you use plexi is to cover up the old holes in a multiply converted cabinet. Actual dedicated games did not have plexi on the control panel. Well, I can't vouch for EVERY game, but I know that Atari, Williams, Midway, Gottlieb, Centuri, and Stern games did not have plexi (so that accounts for 95 percent of games).

I've got an original Street Fighter II CP that begs to differ.

You have a dedicated Street Fighter II? As far as I know the only dedicated SF II ever made was the Championship edition, but even most of those were kits.

[SirPoonga]

this is a cool idea, I could mount my ls-30.

[shmokes]

If you accidentally routed too deep...

This may be a question with an obvious answer, but I'm new to woodworking...

How can you accidentally router to deep?  I can see routing outside the lines if you're freehanding it or make a bad jig or something, but can't you just set the depth and router away without the depth ever changing?  Even on a plunge router you can set a maximum depth can't you?

[Tiger-Heli]

If you accidentally routed too deep...

This may be a question with an obvious answer, but I'm new to woodworking...

How can you accidentally router to deep?  I can see routing outside the lines if you're freehanding it or make a bad jig or something, but can't you just set the depth and router away without the depth ever changing?  Even on a plunge router you can set a maximum depth can't you?

Lilwolf, I think the whole point was that the routering did NOT have to be exact, b/c the metal plate holds the joystick level and secure regardless of what the top wood does.

Shmokes, you probably can't get the depth wrong with a router, but those of us using "stone tools and bear claws" (old original Star Trek line that I probably muffed), a-hem, dremel tools or hand chisels, or the like, easily could get the depth uneven.

[SirPeale]

Sorry, metal pre-made cps, I can't see that working I wish, but I know it couldn't work. So many different layouts, sizes, joysticks, desired plexi

You don't use plexi with metal panels. There is no reason too. The only reason you use plexi is to cover up the old holes in a multiply converted cabinet. Actual dedicated games did not have plexi on the control panel. Well, I can't vouch for EVERY game, but I know that Atari, Williams, Midway, Gottlieb, Centuri, and Stern games did not have plexi (so that accounts for 95 percent of games).

I've got an original Street Fighter II CP that begs to differ.

You have a dedicated Street Fighter II? As far as I know the only dedicated SF II ever made was the Championship edition, but even most of those were kits.

I never said dedicated.  I said 'original'  The CP has never been modified, as far as I can see, when it was made.