And this is why I hate Ebay

[Malenko]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140151797735

and

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140151798127


got outbid on both at the last possible second by 2 different brand new less then 30 days old and ZERO feedback account. I already have an MKII but I figured if I was gonna drive to jersey to pick up a mspacman, mine as well make it worth the trip.

This guy has to be shield bidding, doesnt he?

Anyone have a mspacman for cheap? my mom retires soon and I was gonna restore one as a gift to her (her all time fave game and shes good at it too!)

[mcfreak]

They should at least start putting the IP address of the user that bid at the time of the bidding.  I know you can get around it but at least it would give us something to go on...

[FrizzleFried]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140151797735

and

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140151798127


got outbid on both at the last possible second by 2 different brand new less then 30 days old and ZERO feedback account. I already have an MKII but I figured if I was gonna drive to jersey to pick up a mspacman, mine as well make it worth the trip.

This guy has to be shield bidding, doesnt he?

Anyone have a mspacman for cheap? my mom retires soon and I was gonna restore one as a gift to her (her all time fave game and shes good at it too!)

I think you mean "shill" bidding?

[Malenko]

I think you mean "shill" bidding?

Shill bidding: is the intentional sham bidding by the seller to drive up the price of his/her own item that is up for bid. This is accomplished by the sellers themselves and/or someone that is associated with the seller making bids to purposely drive up the price of the seller's item.

Shield bidding: occurs when the buyer uses another email address or a friend (the shield) to drive up prices and discourage bids on an item she wants. At the last minute, the shield withdraws the high bid, allowing the buyer to win the item at a lower price. Most auction sites forbid retracting a bid once it's made, and on Usellit4free shill and shield bidding is clearly prohibited.


yeah I guess it was a shill this time, either way, still pissed =(

[SavannahLion]

Nevermind. Delete me.

[RandyT]

One has to believe that eBay is not only not bothered by shill bidding, but that they encourage it.  I'm basing this on the fact that they now go out of their way to obscure bidders names, making it even harder to know who is doing what.  When you consider that eBay's revenues are based on a percentage of the final sale price, it makes perfect business sense.

I was going to bid on a tool a little while ago and watched the bid skyrocket an hour before the auction was to end.  I looked at the bidders activity and found that he only ever bid on items from the same seller.  IOW, an account that was obviously set up solely to be used by that seller as a shill. 

It's sad to see eBay slowly kill itself.

RandyT

[Katana Man]

I personally can't believe that ebay allows the bidder to retract bids and the seller to retract the item!  If ebay has a chink in their armor, this will be their downfall. 

As a seller, if you give up an item to an auction house to be bid off, you can't say, "No, sorry, I want it back, I change my mind", in the middle of the auction!  Likewise, bidders can't say, "I will pay xxx for it", then later back out of it.

In the past, people knew everyone in their town.  Reputation, reliability, honesty, a handshake, and your word was binding and important.  Then in the last century, the automobile and planes made travel easy.  So if you screwed up bad in one town, you could move to another. Then the internet came.  Due to the fact that your face and identity is hidden, it allowed many "average people" to do things they normally wouldn't do in person.  Hidden identities on the internet really brings out the worst in some people.

[RayB]

Look at it this way....... the seller obviously doesn't want to let it go for cheap, so either way, you won't get the price you want.

[SavannahLion]

I personally can't believe that ebay allows the bidder to retract bids and the seller to retract the item!  If ebay has a chink in their armor, this will be their downfall.

I've had to retract auctions as a seller before. I had a small fire in the store room where I kept items waiting to go out. Some of the items were either damaged from the smoke or the fire extinguisher spray. The end result was I had to retract three auctions entirely because I couldn't sell the items in their condition in good conscious (interestingly, I had multiple emails asking for the items anyways  ).

On the flip side, I've seen a lot of hokey auctions where the bidder realizes the auction is a scam and retracts the bid. To use a few examples, Before the Xbox was released, someone was selling a picture of the Xbox. The entire auction was made to look like it was selling the real Xbox with picture being mentioned in the very last paragraph. Some poor lady fell for the scam.

Another was an auction for expensive racing shocks. Seller was selling information on where to get them cheap. A friend of mine fell for the scam, bidding $200 for the information before he realized what was up.

Without the ability to A) move responsibility of the item off of the seller (ie, an auction house) and B) the ability to physically inspect the item before bidding, retractions are a feature that are going to stay.

[patrickl]

I think you mean "shill" bidding?

Shill bidding: is the intentional sham bidding by the seller to drive up the price of his/her own item that is up for bid. This is accomplished by the sellers themselves and/or someone that is associated with the seller making bids to purposely drive up the price of the seller's item.

Shield bidding: occurs when the buyer uses another email address or a friend (the shield) to drive up prices and discourage bids on an item she wants. At the last minute, the shield withdraws the high bid, allowing the buyer to win the item at a lower price. Most auction sites forbid retracting a bid once it's made, and on Usellit4free shill and shield bidding is clearly prohibited.


yeah I guess it was a shill this time, either way, still pissed =(

Sounds like this was neither shill nor shield biding. With shill bidding the price would simply be higher but you would have gotten the item. It's not shield bidding either since the high bid was not retracted.

You got sniped. This is when someone bids at the very last moment so noone can top their bid. The idea is to make it look like there is no interest so the bids remain low and then at the last minute the sniper puts in a bid.

[hypernova]

I think everyone calls out "shenanigans" a bit too hastily anymore.

About eight hours later (plenty of time for a pickup to have taken place,) feedback was left for the buyer...although the buyer hasn't reciprocated.

So it could go either way, IMO.

[genesim]

I am sorry, but if you snooze you lose.

There is nothing illegal about bidding in the last second as long as you are willing to pay.

Sniping is not only "fun", but it is also necessary if you want to win the item at YOUR price instead of waiting for some turkey to bid you up.   Never could understand why people bid if they want something.   If you are interested...why on earth advertise it??!!   Bid at the last second with your absolute max price, and you will get the best deal as opposed to getting into a bidding war.

As for retracting a sale.   Same goes for the real world.   If you walk into a store, and they decide not to sell to you at the checkout...guess what...THEY DON'T HAVE TO!

Since when did it become a law to sell before the final hour?   Matter of fact, according to Ebay, you never have to sell to the buyer if you don't want to...as long as you don't take their money.   What is unfair about that?   

Now you want to gipe about your time...well boo hoo.   That is the chance you take.

If there is bonafide shill bidding, that is another problem..but posting people IP adresses is totally unethical, especially if they are paying customers!  What kind of crap is that.   So many people are willing to give up their rights, without a thought to the detriment of such actions.   All because it gets them what they want in the short run!

[SavannahLion]

Matter of fact, according to Ebay, you never have to sell to the buyer if you don't want to...as long as you don't take their money.   What is unfair about that?

Um... no. A seller can retract an auction before the auction ends. However, if the auction is over, both seller and buyer have entered into a contract. Whether eBay actually enforces this is another matter entirely.

[genesim]

Ooops, I meant in regard to terms.

After looking at the fine lines..it does seem to be under seller non-performance.

I don't think this has always been the case.

As it stands, I have never refused a sale if all my requirements were met.

48 hours is all I give to pay.   If this is violated...even in some cases by one minute, I just may refuse the sale.    This is not illegal because I stated the terms before hand.   

Anyway....my bad.  Your right Savannah...but in retort, it still would be difficult to prove loss if money was never taken.   

[Malenko]

well I can admit I called "shenanigans" a little too early, it was just odd a brand new account beat me out on both auctions less then 1 min apart. Apparently the guy who won is on a ms. Pac man buying rampage, hes won 2 and has bid on even more.

I always bid what I'm willing to pay the first time, so it doesn't bother me to be "sniped" (one of the gheyest terms ever coined concerning eBay) though sometimes I get out bid and decide maybe its worth the extra few dollars to try and win.


genesism, as always you tend to read a portion of a post and reply as if you read the whole thing. At no time did I say I hated ebay for sniping, thats part of the suck...err...."fun" of eBay, my complaint is shill and shield bidding, which turns out wasnt the case this time.

[genesim]

Perhaps your "always" generalization should have been applied to actually reading my post in its entirety especially since you have admitted to be in error.

"If there is bonafide shill bidding, that is another problem.."

Though my outlook of the situation wasn't that far off.    Shill bidding would be to drive the price up not to actually win the item!    It could be to drive the other buyer away...but at that price?  I don't think so.   

This is more of a case of being a "victim" to what has happened and you want to point fingers.

As for sniping being a "gay" term, however you feel, it is the perfect way to get an item for the cheapest price. 

Now a "sucker" is one who would get into a bidding war and help drive up the price of something they want to purchase?   Rule #1, never show your cards till you are ready to win.

Heed the advice and learn from it.    A fool is someone who has been told and continues the self defeating behavior...even if they are willing to pay "a few more dollars".

At no time did I say I hated ebay for sniping,

And at no time did I ever say you did.

[Malenko]

                      

If the discussion is about shill and shield bidding, why bring up sniping? You have 3 paragraphs off topic then close it off with the 1 sentence answer your initial post should have been.Also shill bidding is used to ensure the seller doesn't have to sell the item, if for example they posted the auction as no reserve, but didn't get the amount they wanted.

Whats so self defeating about setting a limit for myself? Thats called self control and its a great way to stay out of debt. Also the amount I'm willing to pay has numerous variables, if I get outbid on a different item, then my budget for the first item has increased. I never claimed to be a victim, but my initial thought of being shilled/shielded weren't without merit, it just so happen that THIS time it was legit. I never pointed fingers, I simply asked "This guy has to be shield bidding, doesn't he?"

Real self defeating behavior is turning every discussion thread into an argument. Please regress from inferring that I am a fool, you do it far too frequently to far too many people for it to hold any merit. 

[CheffoJeffo]

* CheffoJeffo hates shield/shill bidding but accepts that it happens, including at live auctions.

Sadly, it has become the price of admission to auction scenarios, particularly in this hobby. Alternative is not to bid.

* CheffoJeffo snipes if he really wants to win the auction and keep the price down.

And that's all I have to say about that.

Except that shill bidders often do intend to win the auction if a satisfactory price has not been met ... happens all of the time, both in real life and on eBay.

EDIT: for bad me-fu

[shardian]

I don't have a problem with sniping. If I am able to snipe then cool for me. If another person tried to outsnipe me, well that sucks for me but at least he paid alot more than he wanted.

The only bad thing that can come out of sniping is if it happened alot AND resulted in ALOT of things selling for way under value. The consequences would be that people would stop listing their stuff on ebay.

[ahofle]

If a seller uses another account (or friend) to shill bid, don't they end up paying ebay the fees/percentage of the sale for nothing basically?

[CheffoJeffo]

If a seller uses another account (or friend) to shill bid, don't they end up paying ebay the fees/percentage of the sale for nothing basically?

I know a guy who does this (no, it is not me and has actually been used to my detriment by this particular seller, although he is not a terrible guy and he did apologize profusely for it), and I expect that for high-ticket items he would just file an NPB against the shill account. For low-ticket items, I expect that he would eat the cost of the fees.

[DaveMMR]

I don't have a problem with sniping. If I am able to snipe then cool for me. If another person tried to outsnipe me, well that sucks for me but at least he paid alot more than he wanted.

The only bad thing that can come out of sniping is if it happened alot AND resulted in ALOT of things selling for way under value. The consequences would be that people would stop listing their stuff on ebay.

Personally, if I really want something, I will bid the absolute, positive maximum I am willing to spend for an item at any time during the duration of the auction.  Only when I'm only half-interested (or there are many similar items on eBay anyhow) and I have time will I snipe and try to get a lower price.  I really can't trust fate to be around a computer at the exact second the bidding ends.  People I know who trust sniping to work complain loudly when they lose and I usually I bring up the "well why didn't you put your maximum in early?"   That really angers them.  Heheh

And as a "sometimes seller", the practice of sniping does discourage me from bothering with using eBay to sell pricier items.

[NoOne=NBA=]

I will bid the absolute, positive maximum I am willing to spend for an item at any time during the duration of the auction.

There are two problems inherent in this system.

The first is that someone else may post a better item, with a lower buy-it-now, or earlier auction end.
If you are already bidding on the first item, you either have to take a chance on winning both, or not bid on the newer posted item.

Second, this method lets people who may only be marginally interested drive your bid up for days prior to the auction end.
If you post your absolute maximum right at auction close, there is no way you can wind up worse off than if you posted the same amount earlier in the auction.
I've seen too many times where someone puts in 5-6 "maximum" bids in the middle of an auction, and does nothing but drive the price up for the eventual winner.
If the winner put his bid in at the last moment, the person that drove up the bids would have been content with their  first "maximum" bid because it would have been winning the auction until the last second.

[spacies]

In NZ we have a website called Trademe.

To avoid shill bidding etc they have a very cool system which if a bid is placed within the last 2 minutes it resets the closing time back to  2 minutes. This is great if you are the seller because sometimes it can boost the price by a lot and as the price rises it weans out bidders until you win. Hopefully. It also allows for that computer crash too. lol.

I lost some high end audio drivers for a DIY project on ebay because it just counts down the time and that is it! Crap system.

[DaveMMR]

I will bid the absolute, positive maximum I am willing to spend for an item at any time during the duration of the auction.

There are two problems inherent in this system.

The first is that someone else may post a better item, with a lower buy-it-now, or earlier auction end.
If you are already bidding on the first item, you either have to take a chance on winning both, or not bid on the newer posted item.

If it's something I really want, it's usually not something I'll find multiple instances of anyhow.  There was a limited edition vinyl version of an album I liked that I just, right-off-the-bat bid $70 bucks on.  I sat back and won it for $40.  If someone came along and wanted to pay $71.00 for it, then they wanted it more - be it last minute or not.

Second, this method lets people who may only be marginally interested drive your bid up for days prior to the auction end.
If you post your absolute maximum right at auction close, there is no way you can wind up worse off than if you posted the same amount earlier in the auction.
I've seen too many times where someone puts in 5-6 "maximum" bids in the middle of an auction, and does nothing but drive the price up for the eventual winner.
If the winner put his bid in at the last moment, the person that drove up the bids would have been content with their  first "maximum" bid because it would have been winning the auction until the last second.

It all boils down to "someone is willing to spend more money than someone else".  Doesn't matter if someone is changing their maximum every five seconds.  The same thing would happen if we all sniped our bids.  It's basically twenty people placing their maximums (in theory) at the same time. 

Sniping is not perfect.  Web Pages freeze, time gets lost track of, etc. and suddenly my coveted item is lost because I "cheaped-out".  As I said, I do snipe - but not when something I've been looking for is on the line.  I rather just offer my money and if someone comes along with a better offer, well then good for them.  I seriously can't be bothered with "eBay strategies". 

To avoid shill bidding etc they have a very cool system which if a bid is placed within the last 2 minutes it resets the closing time back to  2 minutes. This is great if you are the seller because sometimes it can boost the price by a lot and as the price rises it weans out bidders until you win. Hopefully. It also allows for that computer crash too. lol.

I don't know why eBay doesn't institute a system like that (or at least, make it a seller's option).  It will encourage more sellers to give eBay a second chance.  I know it's frustrating to see your item get no bids until the 11th hour.

[genesim]

Malenko,

I admit that my writing could be more concise.   It is tough for me to put into words my print when I am often pressed for time...so you would think I would edit more, when yet the opposite is true.    I write it, and then I move on.  No time for much editing.

There is no need to take it personal.   Pay attention to what others have said.   Upping your maximum is a waste of money.  Set it at the end, and you cannot lose.  You "setting your limit" then raising it again doesn't make sense and defending such behavior shows that you need to take a step back...then again, I am happy for people like you, because I know what to bid if I really want something.   While you two turkeys are going back and forth back and forth, I come along and avoid all that crap and put the smack down before you know what hit you..and guess what, I end up getting it for a penny more. 

As for me dedicating "3 Paragraphs" it was absolutely not off topic especially when I was proposing how you could have likely been wrong.    You got "sniped" end of story.

[Malenko]

While you two turkeys are going back and forth back and forth, I come along and avoid all that crap and put the smack down before you know what hit you..and guess what, I end up getting it for a penny more. 

I think my point was if I have $600 to spend and I bid my limit of $300 on each but one items ends and I don't get it, I have more money to play with and I can up my bid on the other $300 item to $400 or more. When I said I can increase my bid you assumed I meant by a few dollars when it could be as little as a buck or as much as $100 (or more). So therefor setting a limit and having the ability to increase makes tons of sense if you think about it. My limit is based on my budget and my budget can change. If I sent a limit of $300 because its all the money I have then suddenly I have $600 to spend WHY WOULDN'T I INCREASE MY MAX BID?

If you are pressed for time, open up notepad and work on a reply, then copy paste when you have the time. If anything it'll help your writing skills as for the reading and comprehension, you're on your own there.

[Neverending Project]

My Dad lists items starting at $0.99 with no reserve, because he is cheap. He doesn't want to pay the higher listing fee so he lists everything he sells for $0.99. Then if it is worth more than the auction is going to end for, he "shill bids" it.

[soapbox]I hate it, and I pretty much hate e-bay for this reason. Not that I hate my Dad. But I mean come on! You've got money! Stop being so cheap! [/soapbox]

Sorry, got on a little rant there. But I also don't see e-bay going anywhere for a while. But something needs to change, methinks.

[mountain]

If I know of an item I want or need, I search for closed auctions to get a realistic idea of what it will go for. I determine my max price then I use esnipe to bid for me at the last 2 seconds of the auction. I do this with several auctions for the same product making sure that the end times are spaced apart by several hours during times when I am at work (in front of a computer). esnipe will email me at a set time to report if my bid is too low. Eventually I will win an item and cancell all of the other bids before they are placed. Takes patience, but worth it if you are cheap like me. 

[ahofle]

I know a guy who does this (no, it is not me and has actually been used to my detriment by this particular seller, although he is not a terrible guy and he did apologize profusely for it), and I expect that for high-ticket items he would just file an NPB against the shill account. For low-ticket items, I expect that he would eat the cost of the fees.

My Dad lists items starting at $0.99 with no reserve, because he is cheap. He doesn't want to pay the higher listing fee so he lists everything he sells for $0.99. Then if it is worth more than the auction is going to end for, he "shill bids" it.

[soapbox]I hate it, and I pretty much hate e-bay for this reason. Not that I hate my Dad. But I mean come on! You've got money! Stop being so cheap! [/soapbox]

Sorry, got on a little rant there. But I also don't see e-bay going anywhere for a while. But something needs to change, methinks

Cheffo, that you?   

[More Cowbell]

I have loved eBay since I discovered it in 1998. Lately, however, it has gone downhill for all of the reasons stated above. Just yesterday i had another issue pop up. I have $1.42 of charges on my account due to something I sold a while back. I didn't realize that I had never paid it. Suddenly yesterday I get an alert saying that my account was blocked due to this outstanding $1.42. Paid it right away using Paypal and thought nothing of it. I go to bid on something last night (snipe  ) and when I go to bid it says I'm still blocked because the money hasn't cleared through Paypal. Could take up to 7 days. I'm ticked that I missed the auction, but the item didn't sell which means that eBay lost the fees. Glad to see that keeping the riffraff out of eBay over $1.42 cost them much more than that in fees.

[RayB]

The problem with bidding your maximum early is that there is a cheat where the seller or other bidder can figure out what your max bid is.  They use a second account to bid up until they surpass your max bid. Then, that account RETRACTS the last bid. A third account then bids $1 less than your max. And now, you're winning, and the seller is getting the max you were willing to part with.

[genesim]

I think my point was if I have $600 to spend and I bid my limit of $300 on each but one items ends and I don't get it, I have more money to play with and I can up my bid on the other $300 item to $400 or more.

I don't care if it is 2 dollars...400 dollars, it is damn silly to show your cards until the time is right.   You can rationalize it all you want.   If I had 600 dollars to spend, I would try to snipe the first auction...if that doesn't work, then you snipe the second auction.   

In most cases you will get the item for FAR less then what you would have if you get in a bidding war.

If you are pressed for time, open up notepad and work on a reply, then copy paste when you have the time. If anything it'll help your writing skills as for the reading and comprehension, you're on your own there.

Besides the personal attack, it doesn't make sense to spend that much time editing.   You get the idea of what I wrote, and that is all that matters.    No time doesn't allow for a rewrite because often I am bored anyway surfing on a computer that isn't my own.  The problems you are having with comprehension have nothing to do with presentation.   It is strictly out of being lazy, or plain ol mule headed stuborness.   

You can't stand the concept that you could be wrong, so you rationalize to make up for it.   

You were most likely wrong in the first case(as you admit). And I pointed out a possibility.

Your way of bidding only gets you paying more.   Its your choice.    I can only lead you to water.    Try to take the advice of others for further education.    Hell at least look at the last person that bid.    The sheer skill of coming along and topping both of you while you are going a penny here and a penny there for NO REASON, is something to be in awe of.

I admit to doing it once or twice till I figured out...Hey this is kind of stupid??!!   What exactly is this getting me??!!   

[torez]

You can save a bundle by switching to er ... sniping.

Early bidding can be taken advantage of by others in so many ways, it's scary.  Even a bad seller can nibble on your max bid to up his selling price.

If you are afraid that your snipe bid will not work, you can always try it from more than one computer or using sniping software and manual bidding at the last seconds.  You can even increase snipe time by 2-3 seconds, if you have to.  Sniping software programs have time synchronization with Ebay, so there is no problem with time running out on you.

[Malenko]

yeah I guesssniping software is the only way to win something you want.

As for being stubborn and all that other crap, I usually bid on something close to it ending, I know there are ways to get the max money out of me but what I bid is what I'm willing to pay, I don't always happen to have the time to watch auctions and usually they end while I'm at work, or more often then that, asleep.

There was no personal attack on you genesim, but for you to go around saying I'm stubborn is like the pot calling the kettle black. Do I really need to link to a thread showing you  how stubborn you are despite everyone telling you the opposite of what you wanted to hear?

I have no problem admitting I was wrong (as you can see in my previous post) but people using the sniping software and shill bidding and sheild bidding....all that stuff combined is really making eBay suck and I'd rather not be a part of it. I admitted I jumped the gun calling shenanigans , there is nothing else I can do but admit to it and move on. I guess you missed that part, so umm I'll repeat.. I dont wanna snipe because I dont want to be part of the problem. if that means I dont win anything on ebay so be it.

Also please stop your insulting observations of me, you may consider calling me lazy, mule headedly stubborn, a fool,  and a turkey  (in this thread ALONE) as passingly funny but I find it very disrespectful.

I ebay exactly like DaveMMR.  I am not mad I got outbid by the guy who won, he surpassed my maximum amount I was willing to pay on both items, a fact I think you seem to have forgotten. Even if I used sniping software like he did, his max was more so he would have won anyway, for the exact same amount he won them for.

Also, please dont confuse your inability to convey a thought as my inability to comprehend it, after reading all your posts I finally figured out what you should have said in the first place "bet the most you want to pay as late as possible"  which ironically enough, is what I do. Unfortunately, as I stated before, my "late enough" isn't "late enough" to win most of the time.

[mlalena]

Just to jump in on the Snipe bidding discussion.

I purchased a refurb treadmill from the manufacturer on ebay last year.
They would have 10-20 auctions for the same model going on at once. Most were buy it now, but some were real auctions. From the seller's auction history, I could tell that with the real auction I could get it ~ $50 cheaper as long as I was willing to be patient and not do the buy-it-now bid.

5 times in a row I set my bid maximum of $50 less than the buy it now price. I did this early in the auction. Those 5 auctions (and only those 5) went for more than the buy it now price of the same item from the same seller in a different auction held at the same time. The auction would hit my bid maximum with 3 days left in the auction. In every other auction it never hit that amount.

I've learned the hard way that if you are willing to pay more for the item, then other people perceive that item as being worth more and will raise their maximum bid (even if they can get the same item cheaper from the same seller in a different buy-it-now auction). They will bid, get out bid, and then change their maximum bid again. People are stupid.

Since then, I only do buy-it-now auctions or snipe bid with 10 seconds left. I don't like doing it, but I'm not paying more than I have to and its not my job to make the sellers extra money.

If you're interested, the treadmill was from the "Horizon Exercise Equipment Outlet" ebay store.

[patrickl]

I had the same experience with Wico 4-way NOS stick auctions. When I bid on them, people were overbidding similar buy-it-now auctions from the same guy too. With sniping I got a more normal price.

[genesim]

I have no problem admitting I was wrong (as you can see in my previous post) but people using the sniping software and shill bidding and sheild bidding....

The fact that you STILL equate sniping and shill bidding show that you haven't learned a thing.

Gee how long does it take...write down when the auction comes down...sign in at the last minute....refresh a few times to keep track of the seconds.   Give yourself, 20 seconds...then put in your bid.    Keep the count...and then hit submit at about 5 seconds left.

Walla, you more then likely will win, and it will be alot damn cheaper.

The problem...people like you are the problem who would rather whine then actually get off your lazy butt and actually do something to help yourself.     Man a great service like Ebay gives us great products from around the world without us having to leave our houses at rock bottom prices and you still frickin' complain???

Here is my advice.   QUIT EBAYING.   This is obviously not for you.

If you equate sniping with shill bidding and you think that is what is hurting ebay....what is right?   Should an auction say....hey good for 2 weeks..except the last 10 seconds?    Now how about the last 10 seconds before that...or before that.    Or better yet, how about, if YOU are winning then no one else can bid. 

I implied that people that act as you do are turkeys or foolish because it is people like YOU who are hurting ebay with going back and forth like malena has implied.    Instead of laying down a final price FIRST, you go back and forth and drive up the price artificially.     When there is more then likely a buy it now, or another auction coming up the back you could gladly win.

Of course all this is great for us sellers and although I encourage otherwise for my own sake, I urge you to keep up your practice...to not "hurt" ebay. 

[CheffoJeffo]

* CheffoJeffo can't help wondering what Mark would say ...

[genesim]

You got something to add?

C'mon Jeffo tell me you haven't sniped before.

[CheffoJeffo]

You got something to add?

Only that I think that Mark is good and wise.

C'mon Jeffo tell me you haven't sniped before.

* CheffoJeffo snipes if he really wants to win the auction and keep the price down.

 

[Malenko]

           

First off you need to shut your pie hole and read what I wrote. Now go back and read it right. I never said sniping, shill bidding, and shield bidding were the same thing, I said I don't like any of them. Then I said auctions end while I'm at work or asleep, yet you call that being lazy.  As for quitting eBay, thats sort of a really asinine comment on your part, I already stated Ive bought and sold a total of about 130 things in 7 years ....thats pretty infrequent use.

I'll quit eBaying as soon as you stop responding to any thread I've posted in.
 

[genesim]

 

No problem.

But it doesn't take a professor to figure out that you have sour apples because you lost an auction, then you come on here for a pity party.

I was only trying to give you advice and you whine like a little girl about it.   Hey its all good.   Keep up your great technique.   All of us will benefit greatly from it.   

As for sleep.   Yeah, alot of auctions are inconvenient.   Get over it.   Not everyone lives in your time zone.

Your disdain for all Sniping, Shilling, Shielding was put in the same sentence.   You stated all were "hurting" ebay.   Now is there any other way to see this?   So you don't think they are all equal....um ok.   But yet you say they are all hurting Ebay.    hmmmmm


Cheffo Jeffo,

Who is Mark?? 

[RayB]

I like sniping... I've won some things thanks to it. The BEST is when I see the OTHER bidder, in real-time, trying to beat my bid, small increments by small increments and then running out of time. I'll admit, sometimes I've lost in similar "shoot-outs" too.

If you're not there for the auction end, then put in your max. If you're there for the end, then play the game.
 

[Havok]

I always snipe if it's something I really want. However, when I do bid (usually in the last 5 seconds) I put my max that I am willing to pay - not just the minimum bid. If someone else does the same, then everybody wins. I just lost a bid on a set of aluminum rims for my TransAm - the other guy had deeper pockets. I bid after him so if I had gone higher, I would have won. Oh well, I found another auction and got the price I was willing to pay.

[genesim]

The BEST is when I see the OTHER bidder, in real-time, trying to beat my bid, small increments by small increments and then running out of time.

Man and I thought I was the only one.   A nervous glee..but a glee all the same. 

[patrickl]

The BEST is when I see the OTHER bidder, in real-time, trying to beat my bid, small increments by small increments and then running out of time.

Man and I thought I was the only one.   A nervous glee..but a glee all the same. 

I don't really enjoy that. It just means you pay more in the end. Anyway, that's exactly the kind of thing which sniping prevents (if you don't snipe too early that is).

[shardian]

What really sucks is when you are just messing around bidding on something you really don't want or need, then actually win it. I've done that several times, most recently on my pin. I just put in a token $1 increment bid knowing it'll just raise the proxy. Sometimes, you actually become high bidder. No problem as of course someone else will bid considering it is selling cheap and there are hours left. Then noone bids and you are screwed (not really, but I think it helps appease the wife).

Another method I have started using is what I call the intimidation technique. Basically, you maintain high bidder status at a minimum level. Someone bids, you keep incrementing until their proxy is beat. You do that a few times and sometimes people will give up on the item because they "know" you'll just keep outbidding them. I kind of think that is what happened on the pinball machine.

[genesim]

What I meant was that all the other "snipers" try to jump in because they are oblivious to just how much I will pay.

Still, I do see your point, and the less of that the better.   

[Malenko]

Your disdain for all Sniping, Shilling, Shielding was put in the same sentence.   You stated all were "hurting" ebay.   Now is there any other way to see this?   So you don't think they are all equal....um ok.   But yet you say they are all hurting Ebay.    hmmmmm

I don't like people with  herpes or you, since I used them in the same sentence they must be equal.

I'm done with this topic, troll away!

[genesim]

Umm try going with a valid comparison "I don't like herpes(shilling) or you(sniping) because they are both hurting mankind(ebay)".

So the deduction is that they are both equal in nature to doing harm enough to mankind that would warrant a comparison.

For your information Equate :  to treat, represent, or regard as equal , equivalent, or COMPARABLE.

Translation.  Equal does not mean equate.    It means that a comparison is drawn that SUGGESTS they are equal(but it doesn't have to be true, which is in your case).   

Your statement was idiotic and proved nothing.   So nice try but wrong again.

Call me a troll all you want, but my reasoning was sound.   

[CheffoJeffo]

I have no problem admitting I was wrong (as you can see in my previous post) but people using the sniping software and shill bidding and sheild bidding....

The fact that you STILL equate sniping and shill bidding show that you haven't learned a thing.

Your disdain for all Sniping, Shilling, Shielding was put in the same sentence. 

Far be it from me to be the voice of reason, but, based on your posts, Malenko's analogy wasn't far off the mark ... and it at least contained a semblance of wit.

 

[FrizzleFried]

Who let the kids out of school early today?

 

[genesim]

Jeffo, gee isn't that surprising.

[u_rebelscum]

I have no problem admitting I was wrong (as you can see in my previous post) but people using the sniping software and shill bidding and sheild bidding....

The fact that you STILL equate sniping and shill bidding show that you haven't learned a thing....

If you equate sniping with shill bidding and you think that is what is hurting ebay....what is right?

IMO, shilling and sniping are very closely related: if no one shill bid, snipping wouldn't be needed as much.  Of course there are other reasons sniping works, including other snipers who are late, less time for another bidder to decide to throw good money after bad, traditional style bidders and newbies who bid minimum raise over current, and the false illusion that losing at a snipe "wastes" less time than losing at an bid placed earlier.

I've bid early, I've sniped, I've won and lost both ways.  And I've stopped.  I don't ebay anymore because of sniping, and most snipers sound like know-it-all-jerks and I don't want to be associated with that type of people (whether or not they're "right"). 

Possible changes that might bring me back include:
a) If a bid is made in last two minutes, extend auction two minutes past last bid (much like a traditional auction "going once, going twice, ah bid by person there, do I hear another, no,  going once, going twice," etc).  eBay said it doesn't want to do this before, and I doubt it will change in the future.
b) Go silent bid style; keep the hard cut off time, but don't post the bid amounts.  Most people don't like this type, even if it's basically the same as if everyone sniped at the last second.
c) ebay greatly increases enforcement against shillers and shielders.  Something on the order of ebay killing all those types after second offense.  And I do mean never to be seen in any way or form in ebay ever again.  Since both are hard to do and are bad for ebay's fees today, I don't see this happening.
d) Add/change other rules that help curb shilling/shielding.  Like if you withdraw a bid you can't bid again on that item, or increasing the minimum bid raise differently for different people depending on how many previous bids on same item (more = higher) and/or how many other people bid between your last bid and this bid (the more the lower).  These two alone are not enough for me though, so


IMO, ebay was cool when it started, but now it's not the deal it was before, with bidders bidding more than the retail of common products, shilling happening left and right, snipers yelling they rule the world, and ebay letting it all happen without a hoot.

Sorry, I'll get off my
Ignore me, and have fun kids.

[DaveMMR]

If I learned anything from this thread it's that people take eBay way too seriously.  And implementations of something similar to u_rebelscum's suggestions are the only way I would treat it on that same level.  Right now, I sell only cheap stuff I'm getting rid of anyway and when I bid, it's usually with a great deal of apathy.  (As I pointed out, I'll usually just bid an absolute maximum I'm willing to pay if I really want something and then go out drinking while waiting for the auction to end).

I don't understand screaming over eBay strategies.  What is that supposed to solve?  Aren't there more important things to fret over? Serious... at the end of the day who really cares? 

[genesim]

a) If a bid is made in last two minutes, extend auction two minutes past last bid (much like a traditional auction "going once, going twice, ah bid by person there, do I hear another, no,  going once, going twice," etc).  eBay said it doesn't want to do this before, and I doubt it will change in the future.

Are you kidding me?   An auction would never frickin' end.

You have a set time...down to the very last second.   Sniping and shilling are not even close to each other.

Enforce penalties to the criminals.   Not the people that play by the rules...using software, their own hand...whatever.

b) Go silent bid style; keep the hard cut off time, but don't post the bid amounts.  Most people don't like this type, even if it's basically the same as if everyone sniped at the last second.

That completely makes no sense.   Who the hell would use the service if they don't even know what to pay!

I agree with the last two though.    But this idea that sniping is bad for ebay is just plain crazy.    Each to their own though.

[DaveMMR]

Are you kidding me?   An auction would never frickin' end.

Of course it would.  It ends when no one wants to spend more money than the highest bidder.  Continually bidding without regard for how much you're actually spending is just plain silly.

b) Go silent bid style; keep the hard cut off time, but don't post the bid amounts.  Most people don't like this type, even if it's basically the same as if everyone sniped at the last second.

That completely makes no sense.   Who the hell would use the service if they don't even know what to pay!

Well the idea is to bid your best offer.  It's almost the same thing with Reserved Price Auctions (you don't know the *real* minimum bid).  It's beginning to seem that hardcore snipers aren't actually aware of the proxy bidding mechanics implemented on eBay since day one.

But this idea that sniping is bad for ebay is just plain crazy.    Each to their own though.

It's bad because it discourages people from selling.  They make no money off the bidders.  And the phrase you're looking for is "to each their own". 

[genesim]

Of course it would.  It ends when no one wants to spend more money than the highest bidder.

Meanwhile...people have lives and you are saying that if I want to sell an item I have to sit around till the dust clears?   A set date of ending is a good thing, not bad.   There are so many problems with this idea.

It's beginning to seem that hardcore snipers aren't actually aware of the proxy bidding mechanics implemented on eBay since day one.

Where is your evidence on that?

A real auction doesn't have silent bidders, and it thankfully isn't the case with Ebay.   A reserved price auction is too limited.

It's bad because it discourages people from selling.

I don't know about your experience, but with my 300+ sales the most money typically is made off the last minute hands down.    The bidders that go back and forth don't generate the revenue, they are mostly penny pinchers which is why they waste the time.

By the way thank you for the attempted correction, but I actually wrote the exact phrase that I meant.  In American English the saying is more common.

I believe the original phrase was "to each his own".   

[DaveMMR]

Of course it would.  It ends when no one wants to spend more money than the highest bidder.

Meanwhile...people have lives and you are saying that if I want to sell an item I have to sit around till the dust clears?   A set date of ending is a good thing, not bad.   There are so many problems with this idea.

It's beginning to seem that hardcore snipers aren't actually aware of the proxy bidding mechanics implemented on eBay since day one.

Where is your evidence on that?

A real auction doesn't have silent bidders, and it thankfully isn't the case with Ebay.   A reserved price auction is too limited.

It's bad because it discourages people from selling.

I don't know about your experience, but with my 300+ sales the most money typically is made off the last minute hands down.    The bidders that go back and forth don't generate the revenue, they are mostly penny pinchers which is why they waste the time.

By the way thank you for the attempted correction, but I actually wrote the exact phrase that I meant.  In American English the saying is more common.

I believe the original phrase was "to each his own".   

Well I guess you're the "King of eBay" then!  Doesn't matter that you're WRONG on getting more money from snipers, especially since you argued that as a buyer, you snipe to SAVE money.  How is that good for you, as a seller who's getting LESS money for something, not to mention not getting any bids on the item until the very end?   I don't know what you mean by "bidders going back and forth", because, umm, don't snipers do that too (just in a shorter amount of time)? 

Seriously, it's silly of me to even reply.  I resist responding knowing it's a waste of time and enegy but the devil keeps finding my idle hands... 

[u_rebelscum]

a) If a bid is made in last two minutes, extend auction two minutes past last bid (much like a traditional auction "going once, going twice, ah bid by person there, do I hear another, no,  going once, going twice," etc).  eBay said it doesn't want to do this before, and I doubt it will change in the future.

Are you kidding me?   An auction would never frickin' end.

You have a set time...down to the very last second.   Sniping and shilling are not even close to each other.

Enforce penalties to the criminals.   Not the people that play by the rules...using software, their own hand...whatever.

Even been to a live auction?  They end, and there's no set time.  Why wouldn't ebay be different?  ("Going once, sorry your bid's too low, going twice, sorry your bid's still too low, gone." and only resetting the time when the bid changes to another person.)

I agree with the last paragraph.  However, I don't see extending the time as "penalizing buyers".  Plus sniping would not work as well as it does (aka not always save as much money every time) if there was no shilling and shielding.  If sellers couldn't go "hey, this got a sucker bite, I'll up it some," you would not always save as much money with sniping.  If shilling happens only 5% of the time, that 5% won't have saved as much.  I'm NOT saying sniping causes shilling.  I'm saying the opposite:

Shilling and shielding promote sniping, because sniping is a way around them.

b) Go silent bid style; keep the hard cut off time, but don't post the bid amounts.  Most people don't like this type, even if it's basically the same as if everyone sniped at the last second.

That completely makes no sense.   Who the hell would use the service if they don't even know what to pay!

Silent auctions (a fairly common method of auctioning): people bid (usually a folded paper or envelope) and no one knows how much others bid until the bids are opened at a set time.  This is how the government projects bids that go to the lowest bidder are run.

If everyone sniped at the last second, no one would know what the other bids were going to be until it was too last to rebid.  (Isn't that the whole reason for sniping?)  All bids would be revealed at the same time (aka T minus one second), and the bid would go the highest bidder.  What's the difference?

The only difference between silent auctions and everyone-snipe-ebay-at-the-last-second, only difference, is that in ebay the winner pays second place + minimum raise (or max bid whichever is lower) and silent auction winner pays the max he bid (usually).

Whether you like silent auctions, as a sniper you are a "silent bidder".  The only difference between a normal silent auction is in ebay the minimum bid is raising to whatever the "early bidders" bid it up to.  Then you and other snipers go and throw in your "silent" bids.

I agree with the last two though.    But this idea that sniping is bad for ebay is just plain crazy.    Each to their own though.

I'm not saying sniping is bad for ebay.  I am saying I don't ebay anymore, and sniping is one of the many reasons.  Others include shilling, shielding, ripoff sellers, rip-off buyers, and no accountability by ebay.

[hypernova]

As a seller, I give out feedback after I receive it!

That should rile some people!

[genesim]

So again, Rebelscum what about if you as a seller actually need money right away?

Also, the blind bidding while not exactly unfair, would still cause less people to want to bid.    Again, it is about convenience of the public and generating interest.

As for sniping go around shilling...this is a good thing, not bad.

Bidding in the last second is perfectly legal, and should be encouraged, not discouraged.    Then your "blind bidding" would be unnecessary.

I think there is far more good then bad with Ebay, and one of the thousand reasons the internet is a cool thing for the world.