The Death of Arcades

[CartmanDP1]

http://gaming.onnetworks.com/videos/play-value/the-death-of-arcades

[leapinlew]

Cool - nice link. I hadn't seen that before.

[ARTIFACT]

Quote from the show: "when we started playing those games at home we realized... they really suck! We needed evolved, artistic games"


mmhhh... personally I dont share this feeling at all... the more I play new games, the more I love old arcade games.
Sorry I don't always have 30 hours to play a Zelda

It is this "immediate and simple" feel they had which I think is unique and worth not discarding them.

Wii Play is a counter-example of new generation games actually embracing some of these concepts from the old arcade-style games... where you can enjoy a 30 minutes game and don't need a PHD int he room to figure out how to work the controls.

[Sir Auros]

... where you can enjoy a 30 minutes game and don't need a PHD int he room to figure out how to work the controls.

Not to sound like a ---tallywhacker---, but I think it's more a case of old fogey syndrome or regular old retardation that keeps people from enjoying modern games due to an inability to learn the controls.

[ark_ader]

The episodes show how the gaming history went, but to us thirtysomethings, we saved pocket money and mowed lawns to play the classic games the kids today take for granted.

Yes it is great to have games like World of Warcraft, but so was Dungeons & Dragon's, when we had to use our imagination and creativity instead of computer graphics to entertain.  

I don't think a 8 minute video will have en ought time to explore all the issues and mistakes the video gaming world made in the 80s, but it was a very exciting time to live in, and the their videos do have the nostalgic twinge when we see those old games.  

I am looking forward to their next episode, as I found it informative, and that girls tattoos were very colorful.  

[AMDman13]

The video was pretty cool, but am I the only one who noticed that the average age of the commenter's was 25? I agree with what's been said.. If I can't get my game on and be done with it in 35 minutes or less than I don't think it's worth it.. Kinda like sex I guess

I did dig on the chick with the tat's though!

[ARTIFACT]

Not to sound like a ---tallywhacker---, but I think it's more a case of old fogey syndrome or regular old retardation that keeps people from enjoying modern games due to an inability to learn the controls.

i respect your point of view

my pesonal pov is that Product Design, input and interaction design have not been focusing on targeting HUMANS. they targetted hardcore gamers instead. hence the exponential number of buttons on home consoles over the years.

both are valid

but they are orthogonal issues. there isno retardation in one or the other.

again these are all povs and its great that we have dif. povs

[Flip_Willie]

Sorry I don't always have 30 hours to play a Zelda

   Even though I enjoy many modern games, I share this sentiment a lot of the time.  I am almost never in the mood to play a long term game.  I like games short and sweet.  I particularly enjoy this about arcade games.


Just as it is,
Flip Willie

[SavannahLion]

I think I could've done without, like, all that, you know, like, that funky, like, California valley, like, you know, talk. 

I'm middle of the road. I don't really spend a lot of time playing the older classics because I've been there and done that. I do think that a lot of the new games are pretty shallow or they consume too much time in one sitting (30 minutes between saves?! Not tonight.) I think that's why the Wii seems to be pretty popular with a lot of people. People are getting tired (though they may not realize it) of playing the same five types of games with near identical graphics and want something a little different. It's not exactly a throw back to the games of yore. It's a careful attempt in a different direction. Sure it's been tried in one fashion or another, but hopefully, this time, consumers are more apt to accept something that's different.

[RayB]

It's an ok video. Basically a spoken blurb.  I don't like how they started it out kind of saying that VIDEO games begat the arcade. Amusement Arcades existed LONG before Pong and Space Wars ever existed.

[jcoleman]

The point he's trying to make is that not everyone is interested in playing games that come with required reading. 

As a software developer, one of the things I always have to keep in mind is that people don't like to read.  "Don't Make Me Read!" is a classic in the field.  Most people will not read, nor will they take the time to "figure it out."  If you can't design an interface that I can figure out without reading or asking "what do I do?" then you have failed in your human interface design.

One of the great things about classic arcade games is that they were easy to pick up and play.  If they weren't, no one would have played them.  Nintendo is bringing the genre back to its roots - simple, easy-to-pick up gameplay that doesn't require a steep learning curve.  Sure, there will always be a market for that, and I'll probably always be a part of that market...I'll always enjoy the simplicity of a game of Robotron or Pac-Man, too.  And nothing beats a great game of Defender, just to illustrate that classics could be complex, too. 

To each his own, right?

As for the production quality of that "podcast..."  Did anyone else get the impression that someone wrote the script and gave it to each of the talking heads to paraphrase in their own "hip" way, then edited it like they all were speaking off the cuff?  I found it a little cheesy - the Nintendo episode, more so.

[Sir Auros]

As a software developer, one of the things I always have to keep in mind is that people don't like to read.  "Don't Make Me Read!" is a classic in the field.  Most people will not read, nor will they take the time to "figure it out."  If you can't design an interface that I can figure out without reading or asking "what do I do?" then you have failed in your human interface design.

I'm guessing when you say you're a software developer, you're not referring to software in the form of games made in the past 10 years, since the manuals have only gotten smaller and smaller. Also, one of the main principles of modern game design (one that most games follow these days) is allowing the player to learn the controls in an organic manner. You don't just go into most games and have to "figure it out," or read the manual, because modern games teach you the controls in a way that even young children can learn. People who whine about modern games being only for the "hardcore," or to complex are just pulling a cop-out for their (to me) inexplicable inability to use a grand total of two more buttons than Street Fighter II.

The argument's totally ignorant bull****. I gotta hit the hay, but if anyone else wants to be indignant, feel free. Just remember to change your depends after you post your angry replies.

EDIT - I will concede that modern games are more intimidating to non-gamers (ie-people who are being won over now by the Wii), but for anyone who has grown up with videogames and/or has played them before, it's a non-issue.

[AMDman13]

If someone doesn't like more modern games then they just don't like them. You seem to like Transformers. Should I say that anyone who likes Transformers at age 25 is a retard..

The answer would be no. What ever floats your boat.  To each his/her own.

[Sir Auros]

If someone doesn't like more modern games then they just don't like them. You seem to like Transformers. Should I say that anyone who likes Transformers at age 25 is a retard..

The answer would be no. What ever floats your boat.  To each his/her own.

Poor analogy, but thanks for playing. If he said he didn't like modern games, I wouldn't have thought anything of it (I'm sure this board is full of people like that), but he wanted to trot out a tired old argument used by ignorant people. Also, I didn't say anything about people who don't like modern games, I said it about people who don't like them for a very particular, ignorant reason.

[hillbilly]

Although the manuals in these newer games might be getting smaller i only ever seem to have the time to play through the 30min "training" in any of these new games before something else needs to be done around the house.

now not all newish games are bad this way I have a blast playing games like counterstrike where you can jump on for short periods.

[Justin Z]

I fall into both camps, but I happen to mostly play older games.  Whoopee.  I enjoy arcade games and yet I own several consoles.  The evolution of buttons from NES to Super NES to PS to PS2, or whatever order it was, has not bothered me, but I've certainly seen it bother others.

Incidentally, I've never played Wii.

[AMDman13]

Poor analogy,

Fair enough.

Is it me or wasn't the Coleco-Vision the first console to successfully bring arcade ports to home. DK was the packaged game pack and it was done at least 10 years before the Sega Genesis. I was playing Coleco when most of the commentators where still walking around in diapers. 

[rooterman]

All I have to say is that back then it was the best time to be a teen. I think if you were too young to remember, you missed out on a magical time.

r

[BobA]

Bit of a one sided age oriented view.    They only consider the US decline so what about the thousands of arcades and mega arcades still pumping away in Japan?
Japan seems to be even more into consoles but the arcades LIVE!
 

[Sir Auros]

All I have to say is that back then it was the best time to be a teen. I think if you were too young to remember, you missed out on a magical time.

r

Which magical time, though? There was the one in the early days of the arcades, and then the age of 2D fighters and side-scrolling co-op beat-em-ups. I was in the second magical time.

[rooterman]

It was all good 

[Sir Auros]

Bit of a one sided age oriented view.    They only consider the US decline so what about the thousands of arcades and mega arcades still pumping away in Japan?
Japan seems to be even more into consoles but the arcades LIVE!
 

Yeah, but 99% of those games are train conductor sims...

[More Cowbell]

I'm in the middle too. I'm totally devoted to retro gaming but have several consoles and really enjoy the modern games. One good thing from modern gaming that helps to get back into the "play for 20 minutes and move on" mentality is playing against others on Live. I get all of the thrill of short bursts of fun like the classics, but I also get the sweet graphics and modern game play of the modern games. Win-win!

[Arcades R Fun]

Here's my take on the video. I'm keeping my opinions focused on that topic alone.

I found the video to be interesting but bland. It was unsettling to listen to  "Twenty somethings" provide the narration. They did not and could not provide the 1st person persepctive that would have made the video discussion more interesting.
They were not even born when I was playing 280 ZZZAP  and Lunar Lander in the late 70's! It's one thing to recite history and it's another to actually live it!

Arcades:
I have played the classics, the fighters, the light gun games and the big driving games from the 70's through today.

I have enjoyed them all. The only difference is now I pump in dollar bills instead of quarters.

That's the point...... Arcade games as we knew it from the "Golden Age" may have died in arcade centers, but arcades as a whole did NOT die out.  IMO they simply evolved. It was a natural progression to go from the arcade into the home because technology improvements allowed it to be so.


Now home consoles are king, but when people go out socially the arcade games will always be there in some form!

[rooterman]

I agree with you Arcades R Fun, it sounded strange with narrators who didn't actually live through that time. They talked about the games, but unless you lived it, you won't be able to fully understand or appreciate what gaming was like back then, and when it was such a new thing technologically and culturally. I don't think those feelings exist so much today.

r

[SavannahLion]

I found the video to be interesting but bland. It was unsettling to listen to  "Twenty somethings" provide the narration. They did not and could not provide the 1st person persepctive that would have made the video discussion more interesting.
They were not even born when I was playing 280 ZZZAP  and Lunar Lander in the late 70's! It's one thing to recite history and it's another to actually live it!

That's kind of a fustrating thing about it. Every time I introduce a new generation to gaming, there's always this difficulty they have when they try to wrap their heads around it. I had one kid (12 at the time) tell me that there was nothing older than the NES. So I break out the 2600 and he's convinced it's a ---smurfy--- Chinese knock off of the NES. He's got a better grip on old gaming now, but he's fallen victim to the, "gotta have the newest," syndrome that plagues a lot of people. Oh well... at least the latest introduction is a six year old and I've got her hooked on Pacman. Too bad she's convinced that Pacman is a "movie" by Disney and that there was no way I could've have ever played it since it wasn't around when I was a kid.   

[Green Giant]

I agree with you Arcades R Fun, it sounded strange with narrators who didn't actually live through that time. They talked about the games, but unless you lived it, you won't be able to fully understand or appreciate what gaming was like back then, and when it was such a new thing technologically and culturally. I don't think those feelings exist so much today.

r

What is with all these cold blooded cheap shot attacks at the 20 something crowd.  Yeah, we didn't see the birth of video games in the 70's, but we were around for the decline in the late 80's and early 90's.

So just remember you have absolutely no argument about any game post 1988 and the kids in the video have more insight than you could ever hope to have about the decline of video games.

Even though it was old, I always enjoyed a game of pacman when we went to black eyed pea.

[dfmaverick]

After watching the clip, here are my thoughts about the piece in general:

-It is titled incorrectly. The reasons for the downfall of the arcade are lightly touched upon in favor of how the revolution of the console is brought about and thus the evolution of video games as a whole rather than actually focusing upon the "Death of the Arcade."

There is a valid point made about the need for the arcade to die for the gaming industry to evolve into what it is today; however, that seems to be the focus rather than the reasons for the fall of the arcade.

I believe a G4 episode of "Icons" did a much better job on the death of the arcades.

-As someone else mentioned, in the production, it seemed as though they were all given a script and allowed to tell the story in their own words. (IMO They were all told the history of the arcade and each retold it and then someone took bits and pieces from each retelling and edited it together.)

It's a valid point that the piece would have rung more true if kids of the 80s had done the piece, but I figure that this is a piece done for the younger gen and thus they want the 20-somethings to promote this piece to capture the intended audience. That could also be why the focus is more on the evolution to consoles rather than why the arcade died.

Overall, I find the piece more fluff than substance. It may be due to the fact that I was expecting something different when I read the title than what they had intended.

[PsychoAU]

What is with all these cold blooded cheap shot attacks at the 20 something crowd.  Yeah, we didn't see the birth of video games in the 70's, but we were around for the decline in the late 80's and early 90's.

So just remember you have absolutely no argument about any game post 1988 and the kids in the video have more insight than you could ever hope to have about the decline of video games.

Even though it was old, I always enjoyed a game of pacman when we went to black eyed pea.

I completely agree with you, Green Giant.  People on this board always come at things with the idea that anything past 1985 is not worthy of being discussed.  Why is it that only the old games are considered part of arcade talk?  I am 25 and was very much a part of the arcade craze of the early to mid 90s.  Why is this time period any less important than the time of Pong and Asteroids?  I hate to agree with Sir Auros, but he is right one on thing.  Most of the problems is that the older generation is fixated on Pac Man and Frogger and totally discount anything that has come after by roping it all together as "modern" games in a way like they should be looked down on.  Get over yourselves.  There is more to gaming than Donkey Kong.

This mentality always comes back up when news comes out that the MAME team has cracked a new board (i.e. CPS3).  They always complain that it is not important to play all the modern games and that you should get a console if you want to do that.  Instead they think that the MAME Devs should spend all their time getting just the right beeps and boops of Space Invaders.  I know that living in the past is part of this hobby, but there's a point where it is just lunacy.

[jcoleman]

I am 25 and was very much a part of the arcade craze of the early to mid 90s.

There was no arcade craze in the early or mid 90s.  There was a "fighting game" craze.  The arcade craze was when GROCERY STORES had arcade games.  Drug stores.  Gas stations.  Convenience stores.  Waffle House (the one near my house had Super Pac-Man!).  THAT was a craze.  You were around for the last hurrah of arcades full of video games...don't get me wrong, I was there playing SF2, possibly right next to you.

Back to the "modern games have too many buttons" argument...that is a 100% valid reason for disliking a game (or class of games).  I like complex control schemes in some cases - but I personally find that a simple scheme like Robotron is all I need sometimes.  There are not many things more fulfilling (to me) in video gaming than a 65k score on Centipede...the type of play in which you become one with the machine....the type that is all-too-rare in mass-market games nowadays.  Occasionally you'll find it - fighting and driving games are where it's at - but it's rare.

There is a reason you will find that arcade games past '85 are not really worthy of discussion - the only things really worth playing at the time (IMO) were fighters.  Manufacturers began to realize they could get twice the price form each player.  Then they realized they could make the game very short but get your money again immediately...and make you keep pumping it right in.  The money reigned supreme (not that it didn't always, they're called coin-ops for good reason) but it seems like it got much more pronounced in that time period.  There aren't a lot of classic games past 1990 - the ones that are considered classics are fighting games...the SF series in particular.  I can't even name a game from the 90's that's not a fighter or side-scrolling beat 'em up.  That may be my personal preference, but I'm pretty sure it echoes a lot of feelings on the forums in general.

Another quick point - there is more to retrogaming than the games.  "Retro" is half the word and nostalgia is easily half the reason I have this hobby.  I used to get 2 free tokens at a local arcade for each A on my report card.  When I drop a token into my MAME cab and fire up Mr. Do, or Tempest, or Donkey Kong Jr., or Dig Dug, the feeling of being 12 years old at the arcade on a Saturday afternoon (celebrating making the honor roll!) comes rushing back.  It makes me remember the roller skating rink, the three neighborhood arcades (wow were we lucky!), old friends, first loves, and yes, even the grocery store.  Grand Theft Auto 3 can't hold a candle to that.

Coleman

[genesim]

I have great nostlagia for the early years and playing Donkey Kong and Space Invaders before that...but the fighting games are what made me serious.

Online does not give you the same interaction and the arcades had their last little sigh because of MK and SFII bringing audiences back from the wooing away that happened with the home cosoles.

I don't know about you guys, but MK looked like ASS on all the home systems.    For me, the arcades were always superior and that is why I made my own....and am still working on it.  

Until the Dreamcast, arcades were all there was.

And yes, fighting games were a "CRAZE" because MK sold in numbers not seen since the Pacman days.     If you calculate for inflation.   MK actually is up there with some of the greats.    I was there for both, and I know a craze when I see one.    MK conquered not only the arcades, but the home systems too.   A feat that nonone had done in the same way before..or perhaps since.     

[gbeef]

I wasn't around for the game craze im 27, i remember playing games like altered beast and golden axe. Those were the games that did it for me, as for the fighters im a huge fan of the them also. I dont really think arcades started to die until the 3D stuff started to release.. ex. playstion, sega saturn.... etc.

I think the thing that was appealing was the graphics and the experinces you couldnt get on  a nintendo.  like you could play daytona USA on console. I also persoanlly dont like playing a video game that take 50 hours to beat... simply dont have the time.
 Im not a WOW player...

[KenToad]

This thread turned weird.     I'm 30 and I consider myself as having seen the last of the golden age of arcade gaming.  I can remember when it seemed every diner or convenience store that my dad would take me into would have a giant box or two that I could go over and pretend like I was playing.  We were lucky that we had a good arcade that kept the classics around when arcade games retreated back into the arcades in the mid to late 80's, so I visited the arcade every day, with or without money, just to take in the sights and sounds of the soon-to-be classics.  I also really liked that foosball-ish hockey game with the plastic bubble over it.  I vividly remember a Red Baron sitdown, Star Wars upright, Karate Champ VS., Sinistar, Bosconian, a Ms. Pac cocktail, Gyruss, Galaga, Space Invaders, Q-Bert, Congo Bongo, Kung-Fu Master, Yie-Ar Kung Fu, Zaxxon, Tron, Spy Hunter (my fave, for the music!), Zoo Keeper, Dig Dug.  I remember the day I first played four player Gauntlet and when we all realized that our healths were inexplicably ticking down like quarter-hungry time bombs.

Yes, let's all take a deep breath and remember the good days of arcade gaming, folks, even if we weren't all there to see them.

 

[Sir Auros]

jcoleman - The late 80's and early 90's had games in all of those places as well, so I don't know what point you're trying to prove there. In regards to the control argument, disliking complex controls is not the same thing that Artifact was implying. He very strongly implied that modern controllers are only enjoyable by "hardcore gamers" and that they aren't normal people somehow and that normal people cannot use modern controls. All of those statements are false. That's the key difference between an opinion and what he tried to pass off as an opinion. I can't stand people who hide behind the defense that what they're saying is an opinion when it's not.

Re:Other youthful people (Green Giant, etc.) - I know, the attitude on these forums has shifted a lot since I first joined. Now there's more cranky older guys and if you're not restoring a classic*, you're likely to be ignored.

*Classic, of course, excluding any game made past 1986.

[CheffoJeffo]

A well-produced video and interesting to get another point of view (although I think that understanding of the timelines  and events is a little lacking).

If you want what I would consider to be a more accurate, and interesting, representation as to what happened, check the Icons episode that dfmaverick mentions.

FWIW, my belief is that there were lots more normal people playing arcade games in the golden age than are playing consoles now, so perhaps Artifact's comment about controls wasn't too far off the mark. 

[Barry Barcrest]

That video would have made more sense if the people in it were actually around at the time of the games they are talking about. They say that SFII and MK were the last bounce, but they didn't mention the rise of the immersive games like the outrun simulator, hard driving, afterburner 360, 8 player daytona, ridge racer 1:1 scale, Finally ending in Dance Dance Revolution series. These carried arcades well into the 90's before they finally gave up the ghost.

[Justin Z]

Ironically, I completely agree with your post in regards to the video.    They are definitely all old enough to be around to see the death of arcades, though their historical knowledge may be lacking.  I'm only 27 but I was literally going to arcades with my dad when I was 2, so my memory goes back pretty far.  I definitely do remember arcade machines being in grocery stores and lots of other random places, in fact there were three different stores near my house, all with different games at different times (Paperboy, Mario Bros., Elevator Action come to mind).  Thing is, this piece was titled "The Death of Arcades," right?  So what does those machines disappearing have to do with it at all?  I thought that was a tangent that didn't make much sense given the context of what the video was supposed to really be about.  So while I liked the piece, I feel it lacked focus.

[jimjim]

One part of the evolution that I saw in the arcades was of a movement towards games that had a hard time being replicated at home.  These were games where there was a focus on unusual controlers that were too big and bulky, or just too expensive for the home console market.  This could be like a skiing game, skateboard control, fishing control, Harley Davidson racer, etc... Sega usually was the main developer for getting these out in arcades.  Ironically, when Sega put the Dreamcast out, they did try to port some of these to their console.

Another part that wasn't mentioned was how the console market killed the pinball market.  From what I understand, and I don't have figures, there are more pinballs now sold for the home market compared to being sold to arcades, or put on routes.  I'm sure there are many other reasons for these, but the lack of arcades couldn't of helped the pinball market.

[saint]

Editing scissors taken to thread, bickering sliced out, thread restored(?).

Oh, and all you dang 20-something console players... GET OFF MY LAWN! Danged youngsters....

[FrizzleFried]

 

Yah!