Author Topic: Easy Led Buttons (Read 8620 times)

councilface · « **on:** July 27, 2007, 02:58:49 pm »

Hi, I'm a long time listener; first time caller. Im currently in the process of modifying my mame cab. Ive been really impressed by the led buttons and joysticks that I've seen on here and I am truly inspired. So here is my question: Im very inexperienced with electronics and Im looking not to kill myself. What would be the easiest way to hook up some led buttons? I'd like them to ideally to shine when my PC is booted. Is there a way to power the leds via the usb? Any help would be appreciated.

Cheers.

Stobe · « **Reply #1 on:** July 27, 2007, 03:07:52 pm »

Easiest? I would guess the NovaGems from GroovyGameGear.

You might be able to strip the 5V out from USB. I just used a spare wall-wart I had laying around.

-Stobe

Justin Z · « **Reply #2 on:** July 27, 2007, 03:21:28 pm »

I was a complete newbie as well until I started to build my panel a couple months ago. I am going to show you a technique that does involve cutting wires inside your computer, but trust me, it is a piece of cake. You just have to do it and get over the "I don't want to get into electronics" fear. Once I did that I not only got this to work flawlessly, but I also started to feel confident enough to delve into other things.

The best way I figured out how to do things is this:

First you need to go to Radio Shack or somewhere and buy some quick disconnects and some wire. Actually if you are planning on ordering the NovaGem glowing buttons from GroovyGameGear you can add some male and female disconnects to your order. They look like this:

If you can get insulated male and female ones that's best, but whatever really works. What you do is thread wire into the narrow side and use a wire crimper/stripper . . .

. . . which you can find in any basic tool set like from the Sharper Image or something, to crush the end of the quick disconnect where the wire was inserted so that it can't slip back out.

You are going to cut the red and black wires on one of your CD ROM drive power connectors on the inside of the computer and then strip a little bit of the wire insulation so that you have a nice little bit of wire exposed. You'll then insert the red wire into one quick disconnect and the black wire into another, and then attach the opposite gender quick disconnect to the other end of each. It'll look like this, except with red and black instead of yellow and black:

As you can see I managed to get my coin return lights to power up.

Then you need a terminal block; it looks like this:

That's also on the groovygamegear site. You will take wire from your two quick disconnects and attach each to one side of the terminal. On the other side you'll be able to attach the power cable for your buttons and your ground cable, respectively. It'll look like this:

(you can clearly see the wires in the lower right hand corner of the image, connected through the quick disconnects, to the terminal block)

You'll notice I have red and black on one side and then just two wires on the other. The reason I have all these loops in the block is so that if I need to plug in more than one button, I've got a power source that spreads across the entire one side of the block so I can use any of the terminals on the other side (as long as I match up one with red and one with black) to power buttons.

I know all of this seems complicated but trust me, if you just follow the instructions everything will become crystal clear in no time. Plus as long as you don't have the power to the computer on and you're careful not to touch exposed ends of the wire to the computer when it's on (that's why you should put the quick disconnects on ASAP, to prevent that from happening) you won't even have any risk of killing yourself because you're dealing with 5V DC at a fairly limited amperage so it's not harmful to you anyway. I think Edison ran like 1000v DC through his body when he was conducting his smear campaign against AC power.

Not only that but you will actually have fun doing it -- trust me. Once you're over that fear of delving into the electronics, you'll get all sorts of exciting ideas about what to do with your panel, things you never would've dreamt of before. It's totally worth it.

Good luck and keep us posted on your progress.

Justin

councilface · « **Reply #3 on:** July 28, 2007, 12:10:48 pm »

cheers guys. Both sound like fairly uncomplicated solutions. Stobe, how does the wal wart connect to the novagems? again apologies for my nOOb questions.

Stobe · « **Reply #4 on:** July 28, 2007, 11:52:00 pm »

Quote from: councilface on July 28, 2007, 12:10:48 pm

cheers guys. Both sound like fairly uncomplicated solutions. Stobe, how does the wal wart connect to the novagems? again apologies for my nOOb questions.

The Novagems come pre-wired with appropriate resistors, so just double check the source voltage needed (was guessing 5V) and you can wire the possitive lead from the DC "wall wart" to all the possitive LED leads, and the ground from the wall wart to the grounds of the LED leads.

Now this is just generically speaking, so make sure you check the current rating of the wall wart (500mA, 2A, etc) and make sure you don't connect too many LEDs to it. Randy can tell you how much current each NovaGem draws, since I don't know this off the top of my head.

Hope that helps,
Stobe

AndyWarne · « **Reply #5 on:** July 30, 2007, 06:27:51 am »

As far as easiest/quickest goes, our UltraLux buttons have quick-connects for the LEDs and we sell a daisy-chain harness which enables all the LEDs to be wired in a few minutes.
You could take 5 volts from a stripped-out USB cable (red and black wires) but the PC might give strange USB messages. Or use a PC disk power connector, again red is 5V, black GND.

Justin Z · « **Reply #6 on:** July 30, 2007, 08:51:05 am »

Quote from: Stobe on July 28, 2007, 11:52:00 pm

Now this is just generically speaking, so make sure you check the current rating of the wall wart (500mA, 2A, etc) and make sure you don't connect too many LEDs to it. Randy can tell you how much current each NovaGem draws, since I don't know this off the top of my head.

They draw 100mA, I had to ask him the same question.

TOK · « **Reply #7 on:** July 30, 2007, 04:58:26 pm »

In my opinion, the easiest is to get 12v automotive LEDs and connect them directly to the yellow lead of a power supply lead. No resistors, no adapters. I drilled small holes in Happ translucents and stuck them up inside.

RandyT · « **Reply #8 on:** July 30, 2007, 05:27:22 pm »

Quote from: TOK on July 30, 2007, 04:58:26 pm

In my opinion, the easiest is to get 12v automotive LEDs and connect them directly to the yellow lead of a power supply lead. No resistors, no adapters. I drilled small holes in Happ translucents and stuck them up inside.

Yes, but how do they look with the lights on?

RandyT

jcoleman · « **Reply #9 on:** July 30, 2007, 11:54:10 pm »

Quote from: AndyWarne on July 30, 2007, 06:27:51 am

As far as easiest/quickest goes, our UltraLux buttons have quick-connects for the LEDs and we sell a daisy-chain harness which enables all the LEDs to be wired in a few minutes.

How long before we see shots of these in action? Lights on and light off both would be great.

Coleman

TOK · « **Reply #10 on:** July 31, 2007, 01:28:40 pm »

Quote from: RandyT on July 30, 2007, 05:27:22 pm

Quote from: TOK on July 30, 2007, 04:58:26 pm
In my opinion, the easiest is to get 12v automotive LEDs and connect them directly to the yellow lead of a power supply lead. No resistors, no adapters. I drilled small holes in Happ translucents and stuck them up inside.

Yes, but how do they look with the lights on?

RandyT

Ambient light... Its an arcade room, so it's not supposed to be well lit.

whammoed · « **Reply #11 on:** July 31, 2007, 06:35:38 pm »

Quote from: TOK on July 30, 2007, 04:58:26 pm

In my opinion, the easiest is to get 12v automotive LEDs and connect them directly to the yellow lead of a power supply lead. No resistors, no adapters. I drilled small holes in Happ translucents and stuck them up inside.

I'm confused. The automotive 12v LEDs I have used, have all been built into a base (like a wedge or bayonet base) with the resistor built in. That pic looks like just wires directly on the bulb...but I've never heard of a 12v LED. Are you sure thats not a tiny incandescent bulb. If it is truly an LED can you provide a link to an example?

TOK · « **Reply #12 on:** July 31, 2007, 09:03:11 pm »

Quote from: whammoed on July 31, 2007, 06:35:38 pm

I'm confused. The automotive 12v LEDs I have used, have all been built into a base (like a wedge or bayonet base) with the resistor built in. That pic looks like just wires directly on the bulb...but I've never heard of a 12v LED. Are you sure thats not a tiny incandescent bulb. If it is truly an LED can you provide a link to an example?

These are from Pep Boys, and yes they're LED's, but thanks for the vote of stupidity.

They're available in multiple colors too. I matched them to the button colors and they're incredibly vibrant. 7 bucks for a 3 pack. Here is a picture of the package.

Every time I post this, people seem to think I'm incorrect or the setup is inferior... Yes they're bright, yes they're cheap, and yes its as easy as stripping some wires and connecting them to an existing plug on your power supply.

whammoed · « **Reply #13 on:** July 31, 2007, 09:41:11 pm »

Quote from: TOK on July 31, 2007, 09:03:11 pm

Quote from: whammoed on July 31, 2007, 06:35:38 pm
I'm confused. The automotive 12v LEDs I have used, have all been built into a base (like a wedge or bayonet base) with the resistor built in. That pic looks like just wires directly on the bulb...but I've never heard of a 12v LED. Are you sure thats not a tiny incandescent bulb. If it is truly an LED can you provide a link to an example?

These are from Pep Boys, and yes they're LED's, but thanks for the vote of stupidity.
They're available in multiple colors too. I matched them to the button colors and they're incredibly vibrant. 7 bucks for a 3 pack. Here is a picture of the package.

Every time I post this, people seem to think I'm incorrect or the setup is inferior... Yes they're bright, yes they're cheap, and yes its as easy as stripping some wires and connecting them to an existing plug on your power supply.

Cool. Thanks for the reply. Wasn't a vote for stupidity, I was just ignorant of the product. Haven't been to Pep boys in a while. They must have incorporated resistance within the bulb itself somehow...I guess. Cool nonetheless.
Maybe not "cheap", but definitely easy. (easy usually wins with me)

RandyT · « **Reply #14 on:** July 31, 2007, 10:30:33 pm »

Quote from: TOK on July 31, 2007, 09:03:11 pm

Every time I post this, people seem to think I'm incorrect or the setup is inferior... Yes they're bright, yes they're cheap, and yes its as easy as stripping some wires and connecting them to an existing plug on your power supply.

From what I can see, they aren't really a bargain, and they don't appear to compare to the light output of the source used in the NovaGems. Do they list any specifications for these units at all? The Pilot Automotive web site is no help.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not knocking the approach. Just stating that the end result going to be different than other approaches, and whether that result is "inferior" is going to depend on the application and what is expected by the user. The same can be said for any approach mentioned in this thread.

RandyT

rlehm · « **Reply #15 on:** July 31, 2007, 10:31:21 pm »

I spent 332 at groovygamegear, spent 2 days wiring the led-wiz and buttons up. Just to find out my computer doesn't auto install the Led-Wiz as the directions describe. So I have 332 bucks worth of unlighted buttons. I sure am happy.........

RandyT · « **Reply #16 on:** July 31, 2007, 10:39:38 pm »

Quote from: rlehm on July 31, 2007, 10:31:21 pm

I spent 332 at groovygamegear, spent 2 days wiring the led-wiz and buttons up. Just to find out my computer doesn't auto install the Led-Wiz as the directions discribe. So I have 332 bucks worth of unlighted buttons. I sure am happy.........

I just read your email. I haven't met a computer that the LED-Wiz wouldn't install on, so you might not have something wired correctly. Best we get you sorted out in email.

RandyT

rlehm · « **Reply #17 on:** July 31, 2007, 10:42:13 pm »

This is how I have it wired up:

I even tried the USB ports that I have the I-Pac and Illuminated Joystick Balltops in just incase it was the usb port, I got nothing,

RandyT · « **Reply #18 on:** July 31, 2007, 10:51:57 pm »

I don't see your power connections. Don't even think about powering all those NovaGems from just the 5v on the USB port. I'm going to need more info, but not here.

RandyT

rlehm · « **Reply #19 on:** July 31, 2007, 11:11:00 pm »

A couple more photos:

Will be taking advice on how to install these buttons without the LED-Wiz. They are advertised as brighter than normal LED lights. So they may require a different type install. Can anyone advise me on how to install these buttons another way?

rlehm · « **Reply #20 on:** July 31, 2007, 11:15:37 pm »

Quote from: RandyT on July 31, 2007, 10:51:57 pm

I don't see your power connections. Don't even think about powering all those NovaGems from just the 5v on the USB port. I'm going to need more info, but not here.

RandyT

the piece of paper that came with the LED-Wiz and buttons directed me to use the USB cable that was provided. Now I am not supposed to use it?

use this link and refer to Figure 3
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=69351.0http://groovygamegear.com/PDF/LEDWIZ+GP_INSTALL.pdf

rlehm · « **Reply #21 on:** July 31, 2007, 11:43:42 pm »

Quote from: Justin Z on July 27, 2007, 03:21:28 pm

I was a complete newbie as well until I started to build my panel a couple months ago. I am going to show you a technique that does involve cutting wires inside your computer, but trust me, it is a piece of cake. You just have to do it and get over the "I don't want to get into electronics" fear. Once I did that I not only got this to work flawlessly, but I also started to feel confident enough to delve into other things.

The best way I figured out how to do things is this:

First you need to go to Radio Shack or somewhere and buy some quick disconnects and some wire. Actually if you are planning on ordering the NovaGem glowing buttons from GroovyGameGear you can add some male and female disconnects to your order. They look like this:

If you can get insulated male and female ones that's best, but whatever really works. What you do is thread wire into the narrow side and use a wire crimper/stripper . . .

. . . which you can find in any basic tool set like from the Sharper Image or something, to crush the end of the quick disconnect where the wire was inserted so that it can't slip back out.

You are going to cut the red and black wires on one of your CD ROM drive power connectors on the inside of the computer and then strip a little bit of the wire insulation so that you have a nice little bit of wire exposed. You'll then insert the red wire into one quick disconnect and the black wire into another, and then attach the opposite gender quick disconnect to the other end of each. It'll look like this, except with red and black instead of yellow and black:

As you can see I managed to get my coin return lights to power up.

Then you need a terminal block; it looks like this:

That's also on the groovygamegear site. You will take wire from your two quick disconnects and attach each to one side of the terminal. On the other side you'll be able to attach the power cable for your buttons and your ground cable, respectively. It'll look like this:

(you can clearly see the wires in the lower right hand corner of the image, connected through the quick disconnects, to the terminal block)

You'll notice I have red and black on one side and then just two wires on the other. The reason I have all these loops in the block is so that if I need to plug in more than one button, I've got a power source that spreads across the entire one side of the block so I can use any of the terminals on the other side (as long as I match up one with red and one with black) to power buttons.

I know all of this seems complicated but trust me, if you just follow the instructions everything will become crystal clear in no time. Plus as long as you don't have the power to the computer on and you're careful not to touch exposed ends of the wire to the computer when it's on (that's why you should put the quick disconnects on ASAP, to prevent that from happening) you won't even have any risk of killing yourself because you're dealing with 5V DC at a fairly limited amperage so it's not harmful to you anyway. I think Edison ran like 1000v DC through his body when he was conducting his smear campaign against AC power.

Not only that but you will actually have fun doing it -- trust me. Once you're over that fear of delving into the electronics, you'll get all sorts of exciting ideas about what to do with your panel, things you never would've dreamt of before. It's totally worth it.

Good luck and keep us posted on your progress.

Justin

Hey Justin,

I am glad that you made this post. I think I am going to try your method. I have all the supplies here on hand. Wish me luck.

Groovygamegear's parts look very impressive, and seem to be manufactured well. His shipping was excellent, and he even seemed to do extra little things to make life easy. Like the silicone dab on the two wires the kept me from accidentally pulling the wires loose

Not sure what the heck I did wrong. I think i'll have more luck wiring it up your way and just putting the LED-Wiz on the shelf for now.

rlehm · « **Reply #22 on:** July 31, 2007, 11:57:20 pm »

I found an extra Wal Wart laying around that was +5.0 V and gave it a try.... YAY!! to my delight, the button came on. I am going to use one terminal strip for power, and one for grounding all the buttons.

I think i was under the impression that the LED-Wiz was used to light the buttons easily through USB. I did something wrong. I hope I did not leave the impression that the error was on Grovvygamegear's side. I am a total newb.. I am 100% sure it was on my end. I just thought his gear was plug and play simple.

Randy

RandyT · « **Reply #23 on:** August 01, 2007, 12:07:28 am »

Quote from: rlehm on July 31, 2007, 11:57:20 pm

I found an extra Wal Wart laying around that was +5.0 V and gave it a try.... YAY!! to my delight, the button came on. I am going to use one terminal strip for power, and one for grounding all the buttons.

Not a good idea unless you know that the wall-wart is regulated at +5v Many unregulated wall-warts put out several volts higher than what is shown on the label and will damage your LED's, and may even cause the resistors to overheat and present a fire hazard!

Stay away from ANY power supply that you don't know to be regulated (as your PC power supply is.) If you have an ohm meter, check the output before even thinking of using something else.

RandyT

rlehm · « **Reply #24 on:** August 01, 2007, 12:53:46 am »

How. How are these to be hooked up. And please leave out the LED-Wiz, I am not going to use it. I keep hearing what not to do, but what am I to do?

rlehm · « **Reply #25 on:** August 01, 2007, 01:47:01 am »

If any other newbs like me read this and are looking for an easy way to illuminate your buttons, please don't think buying NovaGems+ a LED-Wiz is plug and play. It is not. You will still need to hack your comp for +5v and all tht, so may as well go with much cheaper buttons.

RandyT · « **Reply #26 on:** August 01, 2007, 02:27:17 am »

Quote from: rlehm on August 01, 2007, 12:53:46 am

How. How are these to be hooked up. And please leave out the LED-Wiz, I am not going to use it. I keep hearing what not to do, but what am I to do?

First of all, I want to apologize to all who are reading this for the destruction of this thread with a GGG support issue. In an attempt at atonement, I'll provide some food for thought relative to the topic while answering the above question.

While lighting projects are fun and not terribly complicated, I cannot stress enough that they require some basic electronics skills. They are not the same as wiring up a KeyWiz or other input only device.

The abilities one should at minimum possess :

read and understand instructions
use and understand a multi-meter
read simple wiring diagrams
understand the power requirements of a device / devices
understand the power delivery capabilities of a given power supply
safe and neat wiring practices.
patience.

Even something as simple as connecting 12v LEDs to a PC power supply needs to have the quantity of the LEDs, the power requirements of those LEDs and the power delivery capabilities of the supply taken into consideration. If you have a huge power supply with very few devices / drives attached and are connecting only a few LEDs, then this becomes less important. But connecting 20 NovaGems to a power supply will draw approx. 2 amps of current! You must know that you have this available and that your wiring methods can support it, or you risk a lot of problems. This is not the type of project where one can just "wing it" and everything will be fine. A case in point is where one fairly well-known panel manufacturer caused a whole panel full of RGB-Drives to be destroyed through a wiring error. We did what we could to ease the burden on the very distraught customer, but it illustrates the fact that not even those who often build control panels are fully up to speed with some of the work required.

So, the simple answer to "How do I light a NovaGem without an LED-Wiz" is that the Cathode side (the side with the heat shrink covered resistor that would normally go to the output of the LED-Wiz) goes to Ground. The other side (Anode) goes to a well-regulated 5v DC power supply, such as the one in your PC. With this information, one must then consider the number of NovaGems to be connected, the best and safest method of making those connections (jumpered euro-style terminal blocks in many cases) and whether the power supply has enough 5v DC current left to drive that quantity of devices after the motherboard, video card, processor, USB Devices, Hard Drives, DVD Burner, etc. are considered.

In conclusion, this is not a project to fear as some fantastic looking panels with enhanced functionality will result when done properly (as we continually see.) But no-one should think for one moment that any method of lighting a panel is just going to be "plug and play" with no knowledge or ability required from the user. This is specialized fabrication, no different than what kiosk manufacturers do. It stands to reason that some skills will be required.

RandyT

bfauska · « **Reply #27 on:** August 01, 2007, 02:32:29 am »

Which buttons are you referring to that will be much cheaper that won't also be more work?

NovaGem + 5v = lit button.
LedWiz + 5v(if lighting more than 5 buttons) + USB + NovaGem = controllable lit button.

Cheaper button + drill + LED + resistor + solder + wire + 5v = lit button

While not being the cheapest option for illuminated concave pushbuttons, the NovaGems look good to me. Using other sources you could save less than maybe $2.50 a button if you were willing to shop several sources, cut and strip wires, drill holes, solder resistors and wires, and cover the resulting product w/ heat-shrink tube. And even after all that work you would probably end up with a product that doesn't glow as evenly or as brightly.

Green Giant · « **Reply #28 on:** August 01, 2007, 02:48:26 am »

Quote from: rlehm on July 31, 2007, 11:15:37 pm

Quote from: RandyT on July 31, 2007, 10:51:57 pm

I don't see your power connections. Don't even think about powering all those NovaGems from just the 5v on the USB port. I'm going to need more info, but not here.

RandyT

the piece of paper that came with the LED-Wiz and buttons directed me to use the USB cable that was provided. Now I am not supposed to use it?

use this link and refer to Figure 3
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=69351.0http://groovygamegear.com/PDF/LEDWIZ+GP_INSTALL.pdf

You are supposed to use the usb to drive the on-off control of the ledwiz. The computer tells the chip on the ledwiz what buttons to light, but it only acts as a great big switch.

LED's, while efficient, still consume power. The nova gem leds not only require 5V but also 100ma. The document you are refering to specifically says, "It is pre-configured for USB supplied 5v DC power with a total current delivery of 500ma or less." This is 500ma total through the usb cable.

This means no more than 5 nova gems can be hooked up with the usb cable alone. Also on that document is directions on powering the full current load necessary. Remove the jumper and add a simple 5V line from your computer power supply. The thing about USB is that it can only supply .25watts. Your computer power supply probably has 300watts. Using a wall wart for the 5V power using the ledwiz could cause problems with the ledwiz and wall wart having different grounds.

You will not see anything on the LEDwiz if you don't give the onboard chip enough power to turn on. Try removing all but two nova gem buttons from the ledwiz. If you still don't see anything when you plug it in, you might have a problem.

Now if you need help or advice on supplying the 5V just let me know.

Green Giant · « **Reply #29 on:** August 01, 2007, 02:54:13 am »

Quote from: rlehm on August 01, 2007, 01:47:01 am

If any other newbs like me read this and are looking for an easy way to illuminate your buttons, please don't think buying NovaGems+ a LED-Wiz is plug and play. It is not. You will still need to hack your comp for +5v and all tht, so may as well go with much cheaper buttons.

The funny thing about what you said is the innaccuracy. "You will still need to hack your comp for +5V and all that,".

You should have said "you still need to hack your computer for 5V and thats it." Really, if you supply the 5V from your computer, using some really simple extension plugs, all you do is plug and play.

Connecting 5V to a computer power supply or external supply is much more complicated as you will have to regulate the power with resistors so you don't blow the diode.

rlehm · « **Reply #30 on:** August 01, 2007, 05:27:28 am »

Quote from: bfauska on August 01, 2007, 02:32:29 am

Which buttons are you referring to that will be much cheaper that won't also be more work?

NovaGem + 5v = lit button.
LedWiz + 5v(if lighting more than 5 buttons) + USB + NovaGem = controllable lit button.

Cheaper button + drill + LED + resistor + solder + wire + 5v = lit button

While not being the cheapest option for illuminated concave pushbuttons, the NovaGems look good to me. Using other sources you could save less than maybe $2.50 a button if you were willing to shop several sources, cut and strip wires, drill holes, solder resistors and wires, and cover the resulting product w/ heat-shrink tube. And even after all that work you would probably end up with a product that doesn't glow as evenly or as brightly.

My point was simply, if it aint plug and play, it wasn't worth 332.00 when I could have paid half, and done a little more work. Simple as that.

rlehm · « **Reply #31 on:** August 01, 2007, 05:33:37 am »

Quote from: Green Giant on August 01, 2007, 02:54:13 am

Connecting 5V to a computer power supply or external supply is much more complicated as you will have to regulate the power with resistors so you don't blow the diode.

Well, that would explain my last failed attempt. I cut the red and black dvd wires inside my computer, powered up the novagems that way, 3 dead at start up, while checking the wiring of them, more began to fail. Guess I needed resistors.

I did email RandyT before receiving these. Told him in an email that I read the instructions on his website and did not understand them. He replied that I need wait for the buttons to be infront of me before he'd help, as then it would make more sense. I mailed saying I had them, 2 days later and after 3 emails, I started posting here. I too am sorry this landed here, but hey, he was checking this place, and not his email.

Quote from: Green Giant on August 01, 2007, 02:54:13 am

You should have said "you still need to hack your computer for 5V and thats it." Really, if you supply the 5V from your computer, using some really simple extension plugs, all you do is plug and play.

Connecting 5V to a computer power supply or external supply is much more complicated as you will have to regulate the power with resistors so you don't blow the diode.

Doesn't what you say conflict?

You say, just hook it to a computer with extensions, and plug and play,
then you say it is much more complicated and you can't just hook it to a power supply without a resistor. it is this kind of conflicting advice that leaves me thinking wtf.... this type of confusing advice got me into this mess..

TOK · « **Reply #32 on:** August 01, 2007, 06:01:47 am »

Quote from: bfauska on August 01, 2007, 02:32:29 am

Which buttons are you referring to that will be much cheaper that won't also be more work?

NovaGem + 5v = lit button.
LedWiz + 5v(if lighting more than 5 buttons) + USB + NovaGem = controllable lit button.

Cheaper button + drill + LED + resistor + solder + wire + 5v = lit button

While not being the cheapest option for illuminated concave pushbuttons, the NovaGems look good to me. Using other sources you could save less than maybe $2.50 a button if you were willing to shop several sources, cut and strip wires, drill holes, solder resistors and wires, and cover the resulting product w/ heat-shrink tube. And even after all that work you would probably end up with a product that doesn't glow as evenly or as brightly.

The 12v automotive option I showed is bright and evenly lit. They are bright enough that the buttons light reflects off the ceiling in the dark. I wouldn't want 7 flashlights blasting me in the face, so any brighter would be silly. Drilling takes all of 5 seconds, no resistors.

My whole lit build was around 40 bucks, and that is with spare LED's since I did different colors and they came in a 3 pack.

Green Giant · « **Reply #33 on:** August 01, 2007, 09:17:07 am »

Quote from: rlehm on August 01, 2007, 05:33:37 am

Quote from: Green Giant on August 01, 2007, 02:54:13 am

Connecting 5V to a computer power supply or external supply is much more complicated as you will have to regulate the power with resistors so you don't blow the diode.

Well, that would explain my last failed attempt. I cut the red and black dvd wires inside my computer, powered up the novagems that way, 3 dead at start up, while checking the wiring of them, more began to fail. Guess I needed resistors.

I did email RandyT before receiving these. Told him in an email that I read the instructions on his website and did not understand them. He replied that I need wait for the buttons to be infront of me before he'd help, as then it would make more sense. I mailed saying I had them, 2 days later and after 3 emails, I started posting here. I too am sorry this landed here, but hey, he was checking this place, and not his email.

Quote from: Green Giant on August 01, 2007, 02:54:13 am
You should have said "you still need to hack your computer for 5V and thats it." Really, if you supply the 5V from your computer, using some really simple extension plugs, all you do is plug and play.

Connecting 5V to a computer power supply or external supply is much more complicated as you will have to regulate the power with resistors so you don't blow the diode.

Doesn't what you say conflict?

You say, just hook it to a computer with extensions, and plug and play,
then you say it is much more complicated and you can't just hook it to a power supply without a resistor. it is this kind of conflicting advice that leaves me thinking wtf.... this type of confusing advice got me into this mess..

I thought the space inbetween the paragraphs meant they were two separate thoughts.

The extension I refer to is just an easy way to hack up your computer power supply to get 5V out. Then you run this into the ledwiz.

Then the space inbetween those paragraphs was refering to your idea. You mentioned using your own led's and an external power supply. Either way you do it, you would have to find the correct balance of resistors to leds to make sure you don't blow them. The resistor cuts some of the voltage sent to the led. This voltage drop determines how bright it will be. The ledwiz can control the intensity of the led's automatically. Otherwise you will be stuck with one brightness on them or have to wire in a potentiometer on every led.

The first thing I said is the easy way, at least it seems much easier to me. The second is the hard way.
The option from TOK sounds good and cheap, but it requires more soldering and work than the nova gems you already have. But if you are really dead set on not using your ledwiz, there are a ton of people on here that would snatch it up for a reduced price.

The extension cable is the one shown below. To get 5V, you cut it in half, tape up the yellow and black wires so they don't short, attach a long wire to the red and another to the black. Wire the red, 5V line, to the ledwiz as seen on the diagram. Attach the black, ground, to the ledwiz ground. Now you have power for all the nova gems.

mcfreak · « **Reply #34 on:** August 01, 2007, 10:18:06 am »

Quote from: RandyT on August 01, 2007, 02:27:17 am

Quote from: rlehm on August 01, 2007, 12:53:46 am
How. How are these to be hooked up. And please leave out the LED-Wiz, I am not going to use it. I keep hearing what not to do, but what am I to do?

First of all, I want to apologize to all who are reading this for the destruction of this thread with a GGG support issue. In an attempt at atonement, I'll provide some food for thought relative to the topic while answering the above question.

While lighting projects are fun and not terribly complicated, I cannot stress enough that they require some basic electronics skills. They are not the same as wiring up a KeyWiz or other input only device.

The abilities one should at minimum possess :

read and understand instructions
use and understand a multi-meter
read simple wiring diagrams
understand the power requirements of a device / devices
understand the power delivery capabilities of a given power supply
safe and neat wiring practices.
patience.

Even something as simple as connecting 12v LEDs to a PC power supply needs to have the quantity of the LEDs, the power requirements of those LEDs and the power delivery capabilities of the supply taken into consideration. If you have a huge power supply with very few devices / drives attached and are connecting only a few LEDs, then this becomes less important. But connecting 20 NovaGems to a power supply will draw approx. 2 amps of current! You must know that you have this available and that your wiring methods can support it, or you risk a lot of problems. This is not the type of project where one can just "wing it" and everything will be fine. A case in point is where one fairly well-known panel manufacturer caused a whole panel full of RGB-Drives to be destroyed through a wiring error. We did what we could to ease the burden on the very distraught customer, but it illustrates the fact that not even those who often build control panels are fully up to speed with some of the work required.

So, the simple answer to "How do I light a NovaGem without an LED-Wiz" is that the Cathode side (the side with the heat shrink covered resistor that would normally go to the output of the LED-Wiz) goes to Ground. The other side (Anode) goes to a well-regulated 5v DC power supply, such as the one in your PC. With this information, one must then consider the number of NovaGems to be connected, the best and safest method of making those connections (jumpered euro-style terminal blocks in many cases) and whether the power supply has enough 5v DC current left to drive that quantity of devices after the motherboard, video card, processor, USB Devices, Hard Drives, DVD Burner, etc. are considered.

In conclusion, this is not a project to fear as some fantastic looking panels with enhanced functionality will result when done properly (as we continually see.) But no-one should think for one moment that any method of lighting a panel is just going to be "plug and play" with no knowledge or ability required from the user. This is specialized fabrication, no different than what kiosk manufacturers do. It stands to reason that some skills will be required.

RandyT

Randy,
I have to commend you for being so level headed about this. There are threads in the past where your products were attacked and it ended up being a huge battle. I love my GGG products and would only shop with you (And tornado terry's

). This response makes me want to go replace all my buttons with NovaGems...

Havok · « **Reply #35 on:** August 01, 2007, 10:27:46 am »

rlehm, step away from the computer. Pay someone to do it...

RandyT · « **Reply #36 on:** August 01, 2007, 10:47:43 am »

Quote from: rlehm on August 01, 2007, 05:33:37 am

Well, that would explain my last failed attempt. I cut the red and black dvd wires inside my computer, powered up the novagems that way, 3 dead at start up, while checking the wiring of them, more began to fail. Guess I needed resistors.

Check and double-check your wiring. The NovaGems have these resistors in place, and unless they were cut off or the LEDs attached to a power supply of higher than intended voltage, they should not be "failing". In the unlikely event that there is a problem (I say unlikely as this is the first instance we have had of anything like this for the hundreds of these we have shipped) then return them for evaluation and, if necessary, repair.

The rest is not exactly an accurate characterization. I'm happy to hold someone's hand through the installation process, as I have done many times before. But I can't do it if the customer hasn't even received the parts yet. It will literally take 5 times the explaining and in the end, little will be accomplished. I also can't do it if I am not in front of my email when it arrives (6:59 pm in this case) I was out until 9:30pm at which time I chose to log onto here and make the short post in this thread before "going back to work". This act is apparently what precipitated the onslaught. For the record, no other emails were received prior stating that your parts have arrived and you were awaiting help.

RandyT

Malenko · « **Reply #37 on:** August 01, 2007, 01:19:59 pm »

I did the automotive LEDs/drill a hole in the bottom of clear ones, but thats before I knew about the LED Wiz.

rlehm, I'll give you $166 for your set up, thats exactly half. then you can do it your way and I'll redo mine randys way.

rlehm · « **Reply #38 on:** August 01, 2007, 02:31:35 pm »

I used the red wire from the dvd player as stated here. These buttons pop, one by one. Smoke fills the button, then pop. I don't think anyone wants to buy these from me. sure most were fine, but why would i wany 40 out of 48 buttons to be lit?

I won't be discussing this further. RandyT's responces to me in email is not helpfull, but be-little me. So I give up. I am ripping these from my machine. I will just settle on the unlighted buttons I originally had. I guess I am just too stupid to dp this, right?

Later.

Thanks goes to those who tried to help me out and not blame my unawareness, and make me feel stupid.

Green Giant · « **Reply #39 on:** August 01, 2007, 02:45:55 pm »

After the first button popped, did you try switching which wire is connected to the power. LED's are direction specific. You need to push the current through one way, otherwise you will mess it up.

rlehm · « **Reply #40 on:** August 01, 2007, 03:20:05 pm »

Greengiant, I'll reply in this thread because you ar being nice and helpful. No, and to be honest, i did hook one up backwards at first because I was unsure which way they went. It did not light. I switched it, and it did. So I assume the ones that popped, were not backwards. I used a voltage meter, and it has 4 to 5v out from the wire. the dial moves from 4 to 5, but if i wait, it will stay dead set on 5v. I ran this 5 volts to ALL of the wires that do not have the protected coating. In other words, to the skinny wire. The wire with the protected coating, the fatter end wire, and grounded. 40 of 48 worked like a charm. I am not going to order more, so i will leave them off until I rip all the LEDs out and replace them so they all work. I need to replace them all I assume, cause his are the brightest. I actualy want a light not as bright though. I play in a semi-dark room, and they lit the ceiling up like a dance club, and made it hard to focus on the screen. great in a well lit room however.

RandyT · « **Reply #41 on:** August 01, 2007, 03:37:34 pm »

Again, I have to apologize that this is being dragged out in public...it's not by my choice.

If there is a genuine warranty issue that caused 8 of your units to fail, return them to me and they will be repaired at no cost. Yours were just some of many that we ship day after day (all of which are fully tested,) and we have had no other reports of problems like the one you describe. But if the buttons were used correctly, we will be happy to take care of it for you.

Also, If you are getting more blow through of light than you like, consider adding the diffuser inserts. If lights on the ceiling bother you, you'll want something like this for that style of button no matter what you use for illuminaton.

Quote from: rlehm on August 01, 2007, 02:31:35 pm

I won't be discussing this further. RandyT's responces to me in email is not helpfull, but be-little me. So I give up. I am ripping these from my machine. I will just settle on the unlighted buttons I originally had. I guess I am just too stupid to dp this, right?

My responses were not meant to belittle, merely to explain why what you were condemning as errors or lack of clarity in the documentation is actually not a problem with the documentation, rather a lack of necessary, rudimentary electronics knowledge on your part. I don't know of a nicer way to say something like that without making someone feel like they don't understand things which they don't understand

While I do know that the sentence "The USB port can deliver a maximum of 500ma" will have no meaning to someone who doesn't understand what "ma" or the concept of current is, there's only so much that can be reasonably covered in documentation for a device.

I can't stress enough that folks take the time to understand the very basics of electronics before delving into a project like this. It doesn't matter which approach you take, or the parts you use. The concepts are important and will be necessary for a properly functioning and safely implemented panel. We make our parts with the proper resistor values and specify the voltage to be used. That's about the most we can do. Just as a manufacturer of Christmas tree lights can't keep its purchasers from hooking 30 strands into a single home AC outlet, we can't prevent someone from trying to run 30 NovaGems from just the USB port if they are hell-bent on doing so.

If you choose to deal with GGG, I can help you understand these things, but you have to be patient, provide the information I ask for and don't proceed until you get the answers to your questions. If I was standing next to you, I could stop you when you are about to make a mistake and prevent it. From here, I can only ask questions, provide help based on the answers I get and hope the user can understand the things I write. Some days it's not fun, but fortunately those days don't come around very often.

RandyT

rlehm · « **Reply #42 on:** August 01, 2007, 06:02:15 pm »

Just thought I'd update the thread. I put in a few of those automotive LEDs inplace of some of the dead ones... can't even tell the difference... can you point out which ones came from the auto store? I am happy that i can swap the deads one out for the automotive ones and be an exact match

Still too bright for me, guess i'll just have to get used to it.

need to buy 3 more auto leds, but the store i visited had a small supply, time to call around.

TOK · « **Reply #43 on:** August 01, 2007, 07:34:49 pm »

Where is that "told ya so" smiley?

Havok · « **Reply #44 on:** August 01, 2007, 11:40:42 pm »

Good to see you got it working with an easy replacement.

I'll give you $10 for that unwanted LEDWiz...

RandyT · « **Reply #45 on:** August 02, 2007, 12:02:02 am »

Quote from: TOK on August 01, 2007, 07:34:49 pm

Where is that "told ya so" smiley?

I have some of those PILOT LEDs on order for comparison purposes. If they show to have the same output as the NG light sources when I test them, I'll make you a "told you so" smiley for future use

.

RandyT

urbecrisch · « **Reply #46 on:** August 02, 2007, 12:49:37 am »

The nearest Pep Boys for me is in Illinois. What is the product number and brand name of the LED's or can I get them at another auto store?

bfauska · « **Reply #47 on:** August 02, 2007, 02:20:01 am »

Quote from: TOK on August 01, 2007, 06:01:47 am

Quote from: bfauska on August 01, 2007, 02:32:29 am
Which buttons are you referring to that will be much cheaper that won't also be more work?

NovaGem + 5v = lit button.
LedWiz + 5v(if lighting more than 5 buttons) + USB + NovaGem = controllable lit button.

Cheaper button + drill + LED + resistor + solder + wire + 5v = lit button

While not being the cheapest option for illuminated concave pushbuttons, the NovaGems look good to me. Using other sources you could save less than maybe $2.50 a button if you were willing to shop several sources, cut and strip wires, drill holes, solder resistors and wires, and cover the resulting product w/ heat-shrink tube. And even after all that work you would probably end up with a product that doesn't glow as evenly or as brightly.

The 12v automotive option I showed is bright and evenly lit. They are bright enough that the buttons light reflects off the ceiling in the dark. I wouldn't want 7 flashlights blasting me in the face, so any brighter would be silly. Drilling takes all of 5 seconds, no resistors.

My whole lit build was around 40 bucks, and that is with spare LED's since I did different colors and they came in a 3 pack.

Well it sounds like you could have me here. I see a savings of $1.62 + shipping (provided the automotive LEDs are available locally) - sales tax (unless you live in NY and were paying sales tax from GGG, or you don't pay sales tax in your state.) So lets call it $1.75 a button, if your whole 4 player panel is illuminated that's a savings of about $84 (not sure what 48 buttons is for exactly, but not the right place for that debate.) A substantial savings to say the least. Naturally you have to drill holes now, but if you've already built a cabinet... It also sounds as if the automotive LEDs perform fairly well, at least to the naked eye. So maybe you have found a nice balance of DIY and pre-made that leads to illuminated button glee at a bargain price. At the same time I think that with the markup convenience often gets in todays world, $1.62 isn't too much of a markup for illuminated button assembly.

rlehm · « **Reply #48 on:** August 02, 2007, 02:35:20 am »

A few people have offered to buy the LED-Wiz from me. Well, here is your chance. I started the bidding at 0.01 cent. I'll sell it for that if that's all the bids i get. I will ship it very well, don't worry about that.

rlehm · « **Reply #49 on:** August 02, 2007, 02:46:43 am »

Quote from: bfauska on August 02, 2007, 02:20:01 am

(not sure what 48 buttons is for exactly, but not the right place for that debate.)

5 buttons for pinball, I plunger 2 tilt, 2 paddles

Players 1,2,3 and 4 all use 7 buttons. (I play more than just arcades on my cab.. N64 has a few games that are very arcade like and myself and 3 friends drink beer and have a hell of a time)

Then there is this layout
(player3)(coin)(pause)(player1)(coin)(spinner button)(front end control)(dedicated 4-way button)( front end control)( front end control)(coin)(player2)(pause)(coin)(player4)

A lot of people hate the slikstik quad, and any other 4 player controller. On my wide cabinet i think it looks good. It feels awesome, and it does what i need. I have family/friends heavily into games just like me. It isn't hard to get a night together with the boys.. beer... and button mashing. Betting on street fighter games, or a N64 mario cart race could not be more fun... or, let the women play The Simpsons 4 player. It is a little over kill, but not one visitor has ever complained. I completely understand the hate for this type of setup. I used to collect arcade machines. To even see a picture of a MAME cab made me want to puke. Now, I have the granddaddy:) And I wouldn't have it any other way. My wife is much happier with one machine located in our home. And after slapping on mamemarquees amazing printing, it looks perfect

bfauska · « **Reply #50 on:** August 02, 2007, 10:30:00 am »

well, there y'all go again. 48 buttons and they all get used. Who'd a thunk it.

Glad to hear you use all 4 players, so few people do.

Green Giant · « **Reply #51 on:** August 02, 2007, 11:33:27 am »

Damn, did you buy your wire by the yard to hook all that up?

So any offers yet on that ledwiz? When does the bidding end?

You wouldn't happen to go by lemoncade on ebay would you?

rlehm · « **Reply #52 on:** August 02, 2007, 08:19:14 pm »

the current offer is at 11.00
i have been offered 20.00 by PM here, but I do not remove auctions and make the sale, it's against ebay policies. Yes, rlehm=lemoncade

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=320143507451&ssPageName=STRK:MESE:IT&ih=011

the auction stands at 11.00 so far. never used for more than wiring. it never had power to it, i thought the USB powered it, so no way I could have damaged it, unless hooking the provided USB to it can destroy it.

RandyT · « **Reply #53 on:** August 07, 2007, 06:38:42 pm »

Quote from: TOK on July 31, 2007, 09:03:11 pm

These are from Pep Boys, and yes they're LED's, but thanks for the vote of stupidity.
They're available in multiple colors too. I matched them to the button colors and they're incredibly vibrant. 7 bucks for a 3 pack. Here is a picture of the package.

Every time I post this, people seem to think I'm incorrect or the setup is inferior... Yes they're bright, yes they're cheap, and yes its as easy as stripping some wires and connecting them to an existing plug on your power supply.

Quote from: TOK on August 01, 2007, 07:34:49 pm

Where is that "told ya so" smiley?

No "TYS" smiley for you today.

As I wrote earlier. I ordered two packages of these and took the $20 "bite" so hopefully others won't have to. They arrived today. Compared to the lights in the GGG NovaGem buttons, these LED's are L-A-A-A-A-A-ME They are utterly inferior for button lighting, even to the "ButtonBlaster" LED's that GGG offers. I fully encourage anyone who might be considering these to do an objective comparison between the two and post their findings. What follows are my results.

These "12v" LEDs are nothing more than garden variety, narrow cone (poor for buttons) "high-bright" LEDs with a small resistor in-line with one of the leads. There is a length of wire attached and the resistor / LED leads are covered in heat shrink.

They are as bright as any other cheap "high-bright" LED. At the distance required for bottom mounting in a button, they project about a 5/8" diameter spot. This is barely large enough to cover the clear area of the plunger, let alone the surrounding bezel. This means that any lighting the bezel gets is incidental, and the majority of it blows right out onto the ceiling.

After what has been said about these things, I thought the first one I tested was a dud or that my power supply was whacked. I check my voltages and tried another. Same poor performance. Anyone expecting these to even approach what our lighting does, should not. They don't even come close. The light output and angle pales tremendously next to the NG light source. I may post some pictures in a day or two to really demonstrate this, but unfortunately no time at the moment.

RandyT

zabrin · « **Reply #54 on:** August 07, 2007, 07:32:38 pm »

Hey rlehm.. first, nice controller....second, what sticks are those and how did you light em' up....

Z.

Green Giant · « **Reply #55 on:** August 08, 2007, 02:21:43 am »

Quote from: RandyT on August 07, 2007, 06:38:42 pm

As I wrote earlier. I ordered two packages of these and took the $20 "bite" so hopefully others won't have to. They arrived today. Compared to the lights in the GGG NovaGem buttons, these LED's are L-A-A-A-A-A-ME They are utterly inferior for button lighting, even to the "ButtonBlaster" LED's that GGG offers. I fully encourage anyone who might be considering these to do an objective comparison between the two and post their findings. What follows are my results.

These "12v" LEDs are nothing more than garden variety, narrow cone (poor for buttons) "high-bright" LEDs with a small resistor in-line with one of the leads. There is a length of wire attached and the resistor / LED leads are covered in heat shrink.

They are as bright as any other cheap "high-bright" LED. At the distance required for bottom mounting in a button, they project about a 5/8" diameter spot. This is barely large enough to cover the clear area of the plunger, let alone the surrounding bezel. This means that any lighting the bezel gets is incidental, and the majority of it blows right out onto the ceiling.

After what has been said about these things, I thought the first one I tested was a dud or that my power supply was whacked. I check my voltages and tried another. Same poor performance. Anyone expecting these to even approach what our lighting does, should not. They don't even come close. The light output and angle pales tremendously next to the NG light source. I may post some pictures in a day or two to really demonstrate this, but unfortunately no time at the moment.

RandyT

Nice work checking them out before ragging on them. I guess they are an option to use just like the novagems.

But personally I think the novagems are crap when compared to your electric ice buttons. The multiple colors still kicks ass and blows everyone away that sees them.

Looking forward to the comparison pics.


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