Anyone up this late? Looking for some trackball advice

[ropeadope]

Decided I want to get a trackball... I don't have a cabinet or arcade controls or anything, just want a trackball to play some bowling/golf games/whatever else I can use it for on mame. I don't have much money to spend is the only thing. So, I'm thinking about getting a used/refurbed Betson/Imperial 3" trackball. I haven't found much on how it compares with the Happ trackball, but a couple people said Happ was noticeably better, one guy said he liked his imperial trackball better. I always want the best quality stuff, but in this case I'm trying to spend as little money as possible (while still being satisfied). Can get an Imperial trackball for $20-30. The Happ trackballs are usually over $50. Think I'll be happy with an Imperial trackball? Kinda looking for a nice arcade quality one.

Even if I get a trackball, there's still the question of how do I hook it up. The auction I'm looking at on ebay now ends pretty soon, says it has a 6 pin female harness... What would I need to do to make it PC compatible? I want to be able to use it in Mame. And...would I need to mount it? What's the cheapest way to do that? I should probably just spring for the X-arcade thing with the controls and trackball for $60 (after shipping and rebate). I'm realllly tight on cash now though and probably shouldn't even buy one at all. Soooo, many questions. Anyone around to answer them all?

[Kevin Mullins]

just spring for the X-arcade thing with the controls and trackball for $60 (after shipping and rebate).

Considering all the constraints and questions you have already asked...... by the time you have figured it all out and funded what you would need to get in order to make it actually work...... get the X-Arcade version, it's ready to go, plug and play.

MHO

[ropeadope]

I'm thinking about it...

I read the X-arcade uses a Betson Imperial Trackball, is that right? It's still looks like a good deal, even though it's just a trackball with a few buttons on each site no joysticks or anything. I wonder is it heavy enough to not move when using the trackball vigorously? Thanks for the reply.

[stuckpixel]

Yeah, I'd second the x-arcade. If you _just_ want a trackball, it's gonna cost about the same as if you built one yourself, and you get to just plug it in and go.

[ropeadope]

I've heard mixed reviews of X-arcade products. $60 Still seems pretty high to me, even though it's a good price. Plus I hate rebates. What happened to the "Build your own arcade controls" spirit?

[Kevin Mullins]

What happened to the "Build your own arcade controls" spirit?

Oh it's alive and well all right..... 

BUT..... you just can't build what you are asking for and even compare it to what you get for the price of the X-Arcade trackball unit. Not when cost is a majoring factor. By the time you bought parts, buttons, wiring, wood, tools if needed, hardware, interfacing hardware, etc......

# Built Like A Friggin' Tank
# Authentic Arcade Parts Ripped From A Real Arcade Machine
# Dual Layout For Left/Right - Handed Players
# Nifty PS/2 and USB Support
# Functions As A Standard 3 Button Mouse
# Compatible With Any Mouse-Based Game
# Dual Left/Right Pinball Flipper Buttons
# Indestructible Arcade Design With Lifetime Warranty
# 15 LBS Of Industrial-Grade Retro Gaming Pleasure
# Limited Time Special Only $49.95
After $20 Mail-In Rebate

And yes, you will always find mixed reviews on the X-Arcade stuff. That argument comes up all the time. I personally have had one of the original dual stick units since the day they came out when they cost twice what they do now..... and we're still beating on the thing. So no, I personally have no complaints about their stuff. Others may have had a different experience or may just be more particular on button "feel", joystick "throw" or some other little issue. All in an opinion.
 

[ArtMAME]

I have gotten used Betson Trackballs for as little as $0.99 plus $6.00 shipping from Ebay.  I had to remove the rust off the rollers, then oil the bearings.  Then I took a Microsoft PS/2 Mouse that I had lying around and hacked it to the trackball optical encoders.  I then incorporated it into my existing control panel.  For the buttons, I took a USB mouse and wired 3 of the CP buttons to the 3 switches on the mouse PCB. 

So it is possible to make a trackball controller for very cheap, you just need a little time and patience and spare materials.

Unless you have the following stuff already, you will have to purchase some or all of the following items:

Trackball plate (optional, but makes life easier if you have it) $14 plus shipping
Trackball repair kit if the old shafts and bearings are shot (optional) $30 plus shipping
3 arcade buttons $1.50 each plus shipping
Wire for hooking up buttons ?
Plywood, MDF, or particle board for CP top and sides $7 to $20 (depending on the quality)
Optional T-Molding (about 6 feet) $0.95 per foot (cheaper if you buy it in bulk)
Paint or Vinyl CP overlay (optional) $10 to $25
Soldering iron, solder, tools, etc... $???
Labor...$???

So it is up to you to decide how much it is worth to you to build your own, or get the X-Arcade package.

A final word about building your own.  I had a new Happ Controls Trackball already in my control panel, but I swapped it with the $0.99 Betson that I hacked because I liked the feel of it better, it was "broken in" and rolled smoothly.  It did not spin as long as the new Happ, which feels almost "too smooth" to me anyway.  I was lucky enough to get a Betson that did not require a $30 trackball repair kit. 

If you want to play classics like Centipede, Crystal Castles, Missile Command, etc.  a used Betson would be good, but if you want to play Golden Tee, then you really need a brand new or barely used Happ or Betson, which would cost about the same, or more than a new X-arcade unit anyway. 

Of course, I have been building for a while, and a lot of the stuff I had already.  Plus I have a nicely equipped wood shop and experience with electronics and soldering.   So, to me at least, it was worth it to build my own. 

I don't mean to be a party-pooper, just letting you know what's really involved.  But if you enjoy the challenge like I do, then hack away...

[CheffoJeffo]

So I type up a useful post, which is rare for me lately, and within that time frame, two new posts come up covering exactly what I discussed. 

 

Bottom line is that you can build on the cheap with a little patience and effort, but I am guessing that the OP isn't necessarily so patient, so would have agreed with Kevin's initial advice.

Cheers

[ropeadope]

Thanks for the replies everyone, very helpful. I think I'm going to save up and get an X-arcade trackball. The rebate is good as long as I purchase by 6-15, so that should give me some time to save up a bit, and will give me more time to think about it. Thanks again folks

[CheffoJeffo]

I just realized that I forgot to do my mandatory wiki link for trackball interfaces, so ....

http://wiki.arcadecontrols.com/wiki/Optical_Encoders

Cheers

[ArtMAME]

So I type up a useful post, which is rare for me lately, and within that time frame, two new posts come up covering exactly what I discussed. 

 

Sorry Dude... 

[ropeadope]

*Update*

I ending up getting a nice 3" Happ trackball off ebay for about $20 ($10 before shipping!), so I'm pretty excited. I have no clue what I'm going to do with it, but I'm excited anyways - Don't know how I'm going to mount it or make it PC compatible, luckily you guys are here so I can ask you - This should be fun. Thanks in advanced to anyone who can help me out.

[ropeadope]

Shabump. I'm up late again

Still looking for help on this, no idea how I'm going to hook this trackball up to my computer and get it working in MAME.

[BobA]

Here are a bunch of links re the trackball mouse hack.

Link1
Link2
Link3
Link4
Link5

[ropeadope]

Hey, thanks! I was hoping it wouldn't be that hard - but I kinda figured it would be. I'm sure people here have had experience making their trackballs PC compatible. I don't necessarily want to turn it into a mouse though, I just want to use it with golden tee/bowling games mainly...so am I still looking to do what's on Link1 there? It goes through USB? What exactly is a "non-optical" mouse? Hopefully I have one laying around somewhere. Any help would be big, thanks again.

Don't suppose there's anyway I could hook it up without soldering?

[JimmyU]

What exactly is a "non-optical" mouse? Hopefully I have one laying around somewhere. Any help would be big, thanks again.

A mouse with a roller ball in it.

[Kaytrim]

Seeing as you are getting a Happ trackball you might need to get the mounting plate.  This is because of the odd shape.  If you had gotten the Beston trackball it would have been easier to mount.  See how I did it in Dad's Bartop. The mounts are usually around $10 plus shipping. 

I tried to do the mouse hack but ended up ruining two mice in the process.  I finally broke down and ordered an Opti-Wiz from GGG.  It was a lot simpler to just solder the trackball wires to the holes provided on that board then try to find the +5v and ground on some mouse board.  You can get the Opti-Wiz in USB or PS/2 for $14.95 plus shipping.

TTFN
Kaytrim

Soldering is a must if you are going to hack a mouse.

[BobA]

If you don't want to hack up mice or solder get an Opti Wiz and a No Solder cable.

GGG Link

[ropeadope]

Ah, very cool. Thanks again.

So I need to get a "Opti-Wiz™ Trackball and Spinner Interface" and a "Trackball Cable for Opti-Wiz™ "No-Solder"" or only need to get one of them? I'm not exactly sure what the Opti-wiz is.

Or...do I get the "Opti-Wiz™ Trackball and Spinner Interface" and add $2 for the No Solder version? Sorry for all the dumb questions

[BobA]

You get the interface in the no solder version and the cable to do the connection.

[Kaytrim]

Ah, very cool. Thanks again.

So I need to get a "Opti-Wiz™ Trackball and Spinner Interface" and a "Trackball Cable for Opti-Wiz™ "No-Solder"" or only need to get one of them? I'm not exactly sure what the Opti-wiz is.

Or...do I get the "Opti-Wiz™ Trackball and Spinner Interface" and add $2 for the No Solder version? Sorry for all the dumb questions

The Opti-Wiz is an interface just like a Key-Wiz or GPWiz.  It interprets the signals coming from the control into something the computer can understand and MAME is expecting.  From the sounds of things you will need both items from GGG, the Opti-Wiz No-Solder version and the trackball cable.  The cable will connect your trackball to the Opti-Wiz.

[ropeadope]

Ah, bummer. I'm short on cash so I'm trying to keep things cheap as possible. If I didn't mind doing a little soldering could I just buy one of the Opti-wiz things? I'd consider doing that, even though I've never soldered before and it'd probably turn out horrible :p

Thanks for the info.

[Kaytrim]

Soldering is not that hard really.  Use one of the pencil type of irons and some rosin core solder.  Let the iron heat up first, about 5 min is all it takes.  Then using the tip heat the part that you want to solder, a few seconds.  Touch the solder to the part not the iron, if it is hot enough it will melt the solder.  Use just enough solder to fill the hole in the board and take away the iron.  With a little practice you will be good enough to do any soldering for the project.

TTFN
Kaytrim

[ropeadope]

Ok, thanks. So If i'm going to try and solder I just need to buy the original Opti-Wiz right? Not the cable? That way I could save some cash. I'd like to order tonight so they can ship it out tomorrow. I also want a few buttons to hook up, but that's a whole other ordeal I might save for later.

[Kaytrim]

You are better off getting the buttons when you order the Otpi-Wiz.  That way you don't pay shipping costs twice, once for each order.  With the few amount of buttons you may be ordering the shipping could be the same as the cost of the buttons.

TTFN
Kaytrim

[ropeadope]

I decided to draw kind of a blueprint to show you (and myself) what I want to do:
http://www.fustercluck.bluemonday.org/images/mamecab.GIF

30 inches in width, 12 inches long, 5 inches high sounded good to me.

I decided to add more things than the trackball, and to still leave room for improvement. Decided to add a couple of side buttons, for Pinball emulation. A couple buttons on the top panel, not sure if I want to add those yet, probably could do without them. Also i thought a vibration detector would be fun. Like the one here: http://arcadecontrols.com/arcade_vdt.shtml - I don't understand how the computer is supposed to detect it though, it sounds kind of complicated, so I might pass on that for now also. I've already got a lot on my plate with this trackball/cabinet, and still have no idea how I'm going to set it all up, probably will take a few weeks to figure out and buy all the extras. Don't know how to mount the trackball, or how to wire it or the buttons. Obviously need to keep the trackball in place so only the trackball itself moves and not the entire trackball unit.

I'll probably buy the optiwiz and no-solder cable tonight, and might as well get the buttons there too as you suggested. Won't I have to do some soldering to get the buttons working though anyhow? Do I just need one Pushbutton Nut Wrench? Once I get everything I can do the mesauring, buy the materials (plywood and fiberglass or something), and get them cut. I love to jump into things like this, which is why I'm confused - Luckily this place is here and you are all very helpful.

[ropeadope]

Before I order buttons and stuff, can someone link me to an easy guide on how to install buttons and make them PC compatible? Same kind of guide for a trackball would be great too. So many good guides around it's hard to find specific ones sometimes.

[Kaytrim]

You can solder wire to the button switches.  Another method uses quick disconnects crimped on the end of the wires.  These slide onto the blades of the switches.  Joysticks and Buttons are connected to a device called a keyboard encoder or a game pad encoder.  The encoder sends signals to the computer and MAME uses those signals to perform the actions in the games.  The encoders that are most recomended are the Key-Wiz and GPWiz from GGG and the IPac and MiniPac from Ultimarc.

It sounds like you still need to learn quit a bit more before you put in an order.  Head over to the Wiki and/or get Saint's book.

TTFN
Kaytrim

[ropeadope]

Thanks again. I'm definitely just going to focus on getting my trackball to work for now, I don't have the money to get a keyboard encoder. But, I'm still curious what the difference between the Key-wiz and GPwiz are, there also seems to be a few variations of each one, no idea what the differences are. I have been reading a lot about custom arcade building lately, lots of helpful links around the site.

Don't want to overload my brain though so I'll save the buttons/joy sticks for later, if i decide to add them. Got my trackball today. I think I'll try the mouse hack, sounds better to me right now than spending $40 at GGG to get a no solder hook up for it, even though I'm sure that would be easier and don't even know if I can solder. Plenty of Soldering guides around though, and I can always practice soldering before actually doing it. If it looks too complicated or like I might screw up something, I just won't do it. Don't want to break my trackball when I just got it. It will take a while to save up another $40 though, so i think I might take a crack at the mouse hack, as complicated as it looks. It would be good experience.

I also need to work on a trackball mount (after I get my trackball working, which could be days from now), I didn't find many guides on building a mount for a trackball, can someone link me? I could find what I need at Home Depot/Lowes I imagine.

[Kaytrim]

Here is a link to the Happ Trackball mounting system...  You can add up to three buttons on a mouse hack or an Opti-Wiz and they would be recognized as mouse buttons by the computer.

There are two differences between the Key-Wiz and GP-Wiz.  The first is they way they connect to the computer, Key-Wiz is a PS/2 and the GP-Wiz is a USB.  The second difference is how the computer recognizes them, Key-Wiz is seen as a Keyboard and the GP-Wiz is seen as a gamepad.  Otherwise they perform the same function.  The different styles you see on the GGG site are the different ways to connect the wires from the buttons to the encoder card.  There is one where you solder the wires, one where you use screw terminals, one that uses DB15 connectors and one that uses an IDE cable.

TTFN
Kaytrim

[BobA]

If you are looking for value the mini pac is the least expensive for what you want.  If you make your own cable connections you can get buttons and trackball and spinner for the price of only one interface.

[ropeadope]

Thanks. Do I want the Golden Tee 3" mount or the regular black 3" mount?

Does it matter what buttons I get? They have Competition, Ultimate, and Momentary contact buttons (those don't sound like what I want), so it's probably between the 'ultimate' and 'competition' push buttons. Any big differences?

[Kaytrim]

Get your stuff from one of the sellers in the Buy\Sell\Trade forum here.  divemaster and ponyboy will save a ton over getting direct from Happ.  Get the regular mount for your trackball.  As far as the buttons go the only difference between the competition and ultimate is feel.  IMHO the competitions will be more like the buttons you are used to in the old arcades.

When you mount the trackball it will be bolted to the mount.  You will then cut a hole just large enough for the trackball to slide through the CP.  You will also need to drill holes for the screws in the corners of the mount.  There might be a better description in the Wiki.  Also use the search function of the forums as it can be helpful as well.

TTFN
Kaytrim

[ropeadope]

I got all my soldering tools and an old working non-optical mouse...though there's one thing I can't figure out. How will the trackball connect to the mouse board exactly? I'm not sure how to wire the trackball to the mouse board, I'm confused. Trackball->?->Mouse board->USB->PC

[Kevin Mullins]

Here are a bunch of links re the trackball mouse hack.

Link1
Link2
Link3
Link4
Link5

[ropeadope]

Alrighty...one of the guides said to use a cat5 cable to hook up the board to the trackball, but I still don't understand how to do that exactly. Anyone wanna do this for me? I got a mouse already :p

Look at this picture: http://dacab.datplace.com/images/DCP_0159.JPG

My trackball is the same as the one in that pic except the multicolored wires are on the left side and the red/blue wires are on the right side. What's the trackball connecting into and where do the wires (from the blue cat5 cable) go to? Are they just soldered into the board?

[ropeadope]

bumparoo, sorry. This soldering stuff is confusing as hell, I wish I could just buy a cheap adapter to hook it up to my PC.

[ropeadope]

Can anyone just make me a trackball->USB harness? I'll pay a fair price. I'm in way over my head with this soldering stuff, no clue what I'm doing and I don't want to ruin this trackball i just got.

[ropeadope]

bump

I know I know, I'm getting mighty annoying now. This is my last bump, really. Would like to try and get this done soon. If no one wants to help out that's fine really, you've helped me out a lot already, and I haven't put much money in this anyhow.

I just can't figure out how to connect the trackball to the mouse board, it doesn't make any sense to me :. None of the guides seem to explain it very well. Even if I figure that out there's very little chance I'll be able to solder everything correctly. I have much respect for you guys, no idea how you do this kinda stuff :p

Again, my quandry is: trackball->?->mouse board->usb->PC

Is it really hard to connect the trackball to the mouse board?

[Kaytrim]

If this soldering thing has you so confused that I would say to save your money up and get the Opti-Wiz interface from GroovyGameGear and the associated trackball cable.  Make sure you order the "No-Solder" version of the Opti-Wiz.  For what you want it will save you the hassle and confusion plus give you a reliable connection to your computer.  Well worth the $30 plus shipping.

TTFN
Kaytrim