I can't afford my dream control panel!

[Civilan]

Hi folks,

One week ago I began my quest to design my dream control panel. The information captured within this forum and on the main FAQ was instrumental in helping me define my design goals, sort out the pros and cons of various approaches, and provide me with specific answers to my questions. All I had to do is read, search, and read some more! Thanks to all the people that have contributed. Here's my little contribution.

These are requirements for my dream control panel:

- 1 and 2 player support for all joystick and spinner,and 360

[hyiu]

 2 8-way Optical Rotary Joystick 50-5619-00 94.40
 1 3" High-Ball Trackball w/Harness, Black 56-0110-16 95.65
 2 SlikStik Tornado Spinner **  89.95

may I suggest....

when I look at your cost list... that is the most expensive 3 items.... totalling almost $300.... (over half the cost...)

assuming you can't dish $500+.... if you can dish $200+...

instead of Optical Rotary.... get Super or Competition....

Trackball wise..... a 3 inch Crayola Ball... I got mine like $30+.... (there was a sale then... but keep your eyes open...) I was told there's refurb arcade trackballs(?!?!) for sale for much less on ebay....

I'm also waiting for the DOT spinner myself....  

I think there're places who sell Happs parts at a slightly cheaper prices... so... you can save a bit here and there...

that should help chop prices by about $100+ (just my roughly calculations.... no guarantee...)

well.... but you know its going to overbudget / overtime / overwork on this project... haaa haa haaa.....
 

good luck....

[marcoval]

Well aren't the happs buttons on sale for $1 now? See! Those $20 will make all the difference!

[Tommy Boy]

I hate to point this out, but doesn't the Tornado spinner cost $89.95 EACH?  Total cost should be $179.90 for the spinners.  

On the whole though, I really like the design.  Looks good.  Well thought out.

Two quesitions: First, do you think the optical rotary sticks will feel/play right on games like Ikari?  Second, do you really need two spinners?  What games are you looking to play that require simultaneous spinners?

[rampy]

you can also buy from http://www.therealbobroberts.com

I'd get a wico or an imperial betson trackball as happs trackball prices are high...

So that shaves some duckets...

uhm... May I humbly suggest just getting the 4-way restrictor plates (sorry oscar) and not worry about trying to "go up" in galaga for example...  (i.e. nix the 2/ 2way plates)

I'd just build it a little over time... or save up and buy it when you can afford all the pieces.

*shrug*... you can't squeeze blood from a stone man... no matter how bad you want an ultimate control panel NOW NOW NOW.. if you don't have the fundage/time/expertise... there's not much you can do...  

Does slik stick have a credit card/laya way program =P

rampy

[wee beastie]

agreed, ditch the 2-way joystick idea all together.  Those games play fine on  a decent 4 way anyway

[_Iz-]

...and why 2 spinners anyway? Are there any games that need this?

You could also get a wico trackball much cheaper than a happs.

[Civilan]

Hi guys,

Tommy Boy, thanks for checking my math - DOH! That brings the total to over $590. Ouch again. I chose 2 spinners to mainly play 2 player driving games like Super Sprint and Off Road. I figured that the spinners would do an okay job of steering. I have no clue if the rotary optical joystick will feel right (no clicks) but I've read in the forums that they do work. I've never played these type of games in the arcades so if it's not authentic feeling I won't notice. The mechanical rotaty joysticks seemed to complex to hook up and use in MAME (again something I've read).  

rampy, I'll look into the wico or imperial trackballs and the bob roberts link.

I am leaning towards building up the control panel over time. That way I'll have a set upgrade path.

I'm located in the Toronto (Canada) area and have located a local supplier that has slightly better prices but it's still high. For example the trackball is only $65USD but joystick are the same price. I'll patient and keep looking around.

Hyui, I haven't found a crayola trackball around here. I'll keep looking...

It's hard to not want everything NOW but I'll survive. I have in the past. I still have the cabinet to design to keep me occupied for a while.

Cheers,
Civilan.

[Civilan]

Are the Wico and Imperial trackballs as good or better than the Happ? I haven't done any research into them.

Cheers,
Pierre.

[Tommy Boy]

Take a look and you'll find some threads on the Wicos in the archive.  Seems like most people who've used 'em like the Wico trackballs just fine.

[Aceldamor]

...and why 2 spinners anyway? Are there any games that need this?

You could also get a wico trackball much cheaper than a happs.

I would imagine the 2 spinners come into play when you want to use the spinner as a mock steering wheel for driving games.

[Brax]

I'm located in the Toronto (Canada) area and have located a local supplier that has slightly better prices but it's still high. For example the trackball is only $65USD but joystick are the same price. I'll patient and keep looking around.

Hyui, I haven't found a crayola trackball around here. I'll keep looking...

Have you tried Starburst Coin in Mississauga? They're a Happs distributor. It was cheaper than going mail order and spending US dollars. Of course they're still Happs parts and therfore pricey regardless.

Good luck in finding a Crayola ball..... I sure couldn't. I just camped Ebay until I found a brand new golden tee ball (happs) for cheap!

[Jakobud]

Two nice spinners and two rotary joysticks definately are the big kicker in that CP price...

[Civilan]

Brax: Yep. I've contacted Starburst Coin in Mississauga and found their prices okay and will be going to them for a lot of my items (in time). I believe I got their name from a post or reply you made. thx. Before that the only other place I knew about was Toronto Coin Exchange (www.pinballexchange.com) in Oakville. I wonder if there's a place in the east end?

I'll camp out on e-bay for awhile to see if anything shows up.

I'll also look into making my spinners from junk hard drives and mice I have laying around. If they work well enough I could save a few bucks now and upgrade latter if necessary.

Regardless of my budgetary constraints I'm excited about this new hobby.

Cheers,
Pierre.

[u_rebelscum]

Are the Wico and Imperial trackballs as good or better than the Happ? I haven't done any research into them.

Yes.  I have one of each (I want to do a review of them, but never get around to it).  Personally, I like the happs a fraction more than the imperial/betson, and the betson a little more then the wico.  However, I'd be happy with any of them if I got to keep only one.

All: arcade quality, same arcade standard mounting hole locations, same arcade standard wiring molex.  Work on optipac (active lo) and happs USB interface.

Happs: loudest spin, longest free spin, smoothest lip around ball, smallest footprint, 3/16" tall lip.  Encoder rollers on bottom and right if mounted as directed.  Most expensive ($69 on sale from happs).  My fav ATM, by a little.

Betson: largest footprint, 3/16" tall lip.  Encoder rollers on left and top if mounted as directed.  ($59 on sale from gatorcade.com, IIRC).  My second fav ATM, by a little.

Wico: almost as big footprint as beston, 1/16" tall lip, small mounting holes.  Encoder rollers on left and top if mounted as directed.  Cheepest price ($50 from betson), cheepest feel (by a little).  My third fav ATM, by a little.

[SirPoonga]

To make trackball cheaper.
Get one from ebay.  Doesn;t have to be a full tball, just the case and ball.  Get new rollers and optics if needed.  Goto oscarcontrols and grab his mouse hack for the spinner and use both axis for the tball.

Also, don't order from happ unless you have too.

Also, have you considered module or removable panels?

[Civilan]

u_rebelscum: Thanks for mini-review. Its was very helpful and saved me the search and read time. Based on all the posts I've read from you in the past week or so, I greatly respect your impressions.

SirPooga: You're right. I could indeed save some money getting an older tball and rebuilding it. I'll have to look into the Oscar Controls thing as well. You're insights in other posts have been a great help to me as well. big THANKS.

I am indeed planning removable and interchangeable control panels for my cabinet. The others would be for the yokes, flight sticks, steering wheels and such but the details are still foggy at this time. I was hoping to make the primary control panel as capable as possible to miminize the swapping of panels for the majority of games.

I'm sure I'll end up with my dream panel eventually. I just have to take it slow.

Thanks all.
Civilan.

[Mojo2000]

How can you ignore the need for two or more spinners?    For shame!

Championship Sprint (two)
Danny Sullivan's Indy Heat (three)
Ironman Stewart's Super Off-Road (three)
Sprint 2 (two)
Super Sprint (three)
Off The Wall (three)
Bad Lands (two)
and when it gets emulated: Sega's Hot Rod (four)

You could probably "get by" with just one spinner, but I wouldn't want to be one of the other players stuck using a plain, digital, non-velocity-sensitive joystick.    Depending on how seriously you take your games, this can be a good illustration of how you can't base your control choices on just a number of games using this layout. Rather, think of the quality of gameplay with and without these controls, THEN see if you can justify leaving them out.  

I just remembered something. In my own future dream cab, I plan to use two grip joysticks (with thumb and forefinger triggers) paired with two spinners, so that two players can play such games as Time Soldiers, Caliber .50, Heavy Barrel, Guerilla War, Midnight Resistance, Forgotten Worlds and Ikari Warriors. This would be more useful and practical to me than rotary/clickety joysticks. The catch is that I wouldn't be able to achieve this without two spinners.

To the original poster:

Have you considered Smash TV and Total Carnage?    Or Vindicators I and II?

[Civilan]

Mojo2000:

I'm happy to hear that there is at least one other person that feels that two spinners are necessary to play certain games well. The games you listed are some of my favourites of days gone by.

I hadn't considered SmashTV, Total Carnage, and the Vindicators series but looking at their requirments for 2 joysticks per player I doubt I would be able to incorporate 2 more joysticks into my design. The best I'll be able to do with my setup is play these games in 1 player mode. Even then Vindicators will not be fun due to missing joysick fire button.

Oh well - I did know that I won't be able to play every game with my control panel just a large percentage of them.

Civilan.

[Mojo2000]

If you think that's bad, consider also those games which need two or more trackballs (or equivalent analog devices) to operate well!    

- Atari's Arcade Classics prototype (which features Missile Command II and Super Centipede, both offering 2P co-op play and requiring two trackballs)
- Marble Madness
- Combat School
- most co-op light-gun games (hope these 2P's get supported by Act-Labs sometime)

Oh, and I forgot some more multi-spinner games:
- Blasteroids  
- Two Tigers
- Warlords

[Tiger-Heli]

Got into this late and many of the good comments have already been said, but I'll throw my two (ten?) cents in anyways

8 Competition Pushbutton 13.60
16 Pushbutton with Horizontal Microswitch 28.80

$42 in pushbuttons, not sure what you are using the Comp's for (or why 8 of them), but regular buttons are on sale for $1 each, so that's a $18 savings there.  You could use less expensive buttons for the admin functions, but it's probably not worth it.  Recommend using www.therealbobroberts.com over Happ, as already mentioned.

2 Optical Rotary Joystick 94.40

not much to say here, Druin's http://members.rogers.com/druins22/ls30/interface is $45 and you used to be able to get SNK's from www.videoconnect.com for $15.00 each, so you would save $25, but they don't work well for non-rotary games, so I would stay with what you have.

1  High-Ball Trackball w/Harness, Black 95.65

I think someone mentioned Betson refurbished joysticks for like $30.  Otherwise WICO 3-inch's are $50.  If you don't mind the smaller size, WICO's 2-1/4 TB is $25 and you can use billiard balls in it.  Finally, I picked up this 2-inch usb trackball http://shop2.outpost.com/product/2422410 for $2.99, but it's back-ordered (hasn't arrived yet) and I don't expect it to be arcade quality, but for occasional use and for the price, it can't be beat.

1 3" High Ball Trackball Mounting Kit, Clear Zinc 18.20

Recommend: Atari 3" TB mounting plate, black dimpled $10.00, www.therealbobroberts.com

<edit> 2 SlikStik Tornado Spinner $180

Recommend: 2 OSCAR model 3 spinners - 42.00 each.  No offense to slikstik, but you can buy both OSCAR's for LESS than ONE tornado.  OSCAR's PRO at $61 is a better option, but you wanted to save money and the Model 3 works well.

1 Ultimarc I-PAC2 39.00

Consider: KeyWiz Standard - $33.00 www.groovygamegear.com, lacks a keyboard pass-thru, but otherwise does almost all that the I-PAC does and RandyT's shipping is cheaper if you're U.S.-based (or probably to Canada also).

1 Ultimarc Opti-PAC 44.00

Recommend 1 www.oscarcontrols.com USB interface kit $9, saves $35.  What you lose is the ability to auto-switch to the active control.  You can wire everything up to one interface if you aren't worried about bumping your trackball in spinner games, or . . . OSCAR has a circuit here http://www.oscarcontrols.com/DPDTswitch.shtml for using a DPDT switch to select between a spinner and a trackball.  I am sure you could use a 3-position slide switch with two poles to select between your tracball/rotary joys/spinners.  OSCAR can prolly tell you how to wire it up (Sorry to put you on the spot, OSCAR)!

2 Oscar Controls 2-way Restrictors 16.00
2 Oscar Controls 4-way Restrictors 20.00
1 Oscar Controls Diagonal Restrictors 7.00
2 Oscar Controls Joystick Mounting Plate 30.00

Recommend: Buy only ONE Joystick mounting plate for $15.00 and use as a drilling template.  It looks better and saves you money.  Be sure to read the instructions here: http://www.oscarcontrols.com/customize_hotrod.shtml and mount your joystick using the 1/4-inch hardware and then one at a time swap out the carriage bolts, as the joystick centering is critical.

Except that shipping charges will eat you alive, I would try without the restrictors first, then add the 4-ways and diagonal, then only add the 2-ways if you felt you really needed them.

Hope this helps a little, looks like using a 2-1/4 inch TB and my other suggestions saves you $252 dollars and leaving off the restrictors saves you over $300 !!!

[Civilan]

Tiger-Heli:

Thanks for taking the time to reply! Lots of good suggestions there.

I like the suggestion of the 2 1/4" trackball and the billiard ball. I guess this would allow different colors over time for low $. A small trackball would also make my control panel a narrower by another 1" - a good thing.

I also hadn't considered Oscar's USB interface kit. I do have the wiring/circuit skills to hook up the joysticks, the spinners, and the trackball to one interface. It just complicates the usability of the control panel for the guests. This idea is a keeper!

I did consider a design without the joystick mounting plates but was concerned about wear around the pin holes. The plates will be routed into the control panel and covered with vinyl so the look will be that of no plates. I have to think about this one some more.

Once again thanks for the suggestions; my dream panel is slowly becoming a reality.

Civilan.

[Tiger-Heli]

I did consider a design without the joystick mounting plates but was concerned about wear around the pin holes. The plates will be routed into the control panel and covered with vinyl so the look will be that of no plates. I have to think about this one some more.

Okay, I forgot you were using vinyl, and I didn't have any cost savings for you there.  I plan to use laminate and figured the pins couldn't wear it down too much.  BTW, you might consider laminate, since you have access to a router, problem is, in the states, you can get 2x4' sheets of it for $11.50 (in pretty much black only) or 4'x8' sheets in any color for $40, but this is a lot for one control panel.

I think OSCAR also mentioned using brass sleeves and either press-fitting or super-gluing them into the pin holes to reduce wear.

FWIW!

[Mojo2000]

1 Ultimarc Opti-PAC 44.00

Recommend 1 www.oscarcontrols.com USB interface kit $9, saves $35.  What you lose is the ability to auto-switch to the active control.  You can wire everything up to one interface if you aren't worried about bumping your trackball in spinner games, or . . .

Is this compatible with the concept of two (or more) OSCAR spinners operating simultaneously? I tried to find this interface on the website but failed.

In any case, I applaud you for your detailed budget research.  

[rampy]

1 Ultimarc Opti-PAC 44.00

Recommend 1 www.oscarcontrols.com USB interface kit $9, saves $35.  What you lose is the ability to auto-switch to the active control.  You can wire everything up to one interface if you aren't worried about bumping your trackball in spinner games, or . . .

Is this compatible with the concept of two (or more) OSCAR spinners operating simultaneously? I tried to find this interface on the website but failed.

In any case, I applaud you for your detailed budget research.  

if you use analog+ mame you can split the axis to get 2 spinner goodness out of a single mouse hack...

The USB mouse interface - $9.00 Connect to Model 3 or Pro spinners for USB compatibility.  Includes spinner wiring harness.   (is listed on his order page(s) ) on oscarcontrols.com.

*shrug*

rampy

[Tiger-Heli]

1 Ultimarc Opti-PAC 44.00

Recommend 1 www.oscarcontrols.com USB interface kit $9, saves $35.  What you lose is the ability to auto-switch to the active control.  You can wire everything up to one interface if you aren't worried about bumping your trackball in spinner games, or . . .

Is this compatible with the concept of two (or more) OSCAR spinners operating simultaneously? I tried to find this interface on the website but failed.

In any case, I applaud you for your detailed budget research.  

It's on OSCAR's order page, not the main page.  It's basically a gutted USB mouse, so a single trackball or two spinners would be no problem.  (Analog + might be required to assign the axis to the appropriate player).

BTW, I saw a thread from Rampy saying that hooking up more than two devices in parallel without the DPDT switch (so everything was active) might cause problems.

Since it is USB, another option would be using additional interfaces, but that creates the problems of messing up your trackball game if you accidentally bump your spinner, and raises the cost to $27 (for civilan's example) so the cost savings aren't as great.

[Tiger-Heli]

If you think that's bad, consider also those games which need two or more trackballs (or equivalent analog devices) to operate well!    

- most co-op light-gun games (hope these 2P's get supported by Act-Labs sometime)

The latest Analog + builds support 2P light gun games using Act-Labs under Win 98 or ME  

[Mojo2000]

The latest Analog + builds support 2P light gun games using Act-Labs under Win 98 or ME  

I was referring to original poster's concern about cost and how properly supporting these spinner games was important (to an arcade nut) but expensive.

However, your message about two-gun support in Analog+ is marvelous news!! Isn't this very recent? And is it official?

[Tiger-Heli]

The latest Analog + builds support 2P light gun games using Act-Labs under Win 98 or ME  

I was referring to original poster's concern about cost and how properly supporting these spinner games was important (to an arcade nut) but expensive.

However, your message about two-gun support in Analog+ is marvelous news!! Isn't this very recent? And is it official?

Recent - yes, alpha testing started Feb. 27th.

Official, well, Robin still says alpha tester wanted, but it's in the official Analog + build, MAME itself is still in Beta, you know, j/k!!!

[anthony691]

There are still some major issues with the 2P lightgun stuff in MAME.