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Author Topic: LED wiring question with diagrams  (Read 2536 times)

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Timoe

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LED wiring question with diagrams
« on: May 08, 2007, 10:01:45 am »
I would like to wire a simple set of (4) leds to one 5v source.  I have attached a blank diagram for your use and a sample diagram of what I think will work.

1. Will my idea work?  If not, what corrections are needed?

2. Will only one resistor be needed?
« Last Edit: May 08, 2007, 10:05:54 am by Timoe »

Kaytrim

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Re: LED wiring question with diagrams
« Reply #1 on: May 08, 2007, 10:31:44 am »
Sorry Timone, you may blow your LEDs in that config.  The resister is divided amongst all the LEDs in the chain.  You are better off adding a separate resister to each LED.  This is the reason that I purchase all my LEDs from GGG.  Randy supplies the proper resister for the LEDs he sells.

Timoe

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Re: LED wiring question with diagrams
« Reply #2 on: May 08, 2007, 10:40:37 am »
So then this should work?

Kaytrim

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Re: LED wiring question with diagrams
« Reply #3 on: May 08, 2007, 10:46:46 am »
According to Wikipedia you have the resister on the wrong side.  Look at the section titled "Considerations in use" in this first link to the main LED page.  This second link is to a sample circuit.  Below is what I understand as being the proper layout.  I also included a pic of my LED boards that I put in buttons.

TTFN :cheers:
Kaytrim

Timoe

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Re: LED wiring question with diagrams
« Reply #4 on: May 08, 2007, 11:01:03 am »
Perfect, Thank you.

Timoe

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Re: LED wiring question with diagrams
« Reply #5 on: May 08, 2007, 11:06:46 am »
Anybody know the wattage on these resistors?  are they 1/4 watt? 

(I know that I need 100ohm)  And I would gladly buy them from GGG with the resistors included but I need non standard colors.

BobA

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Re: LED wiring question with diagrams
« Reply #6 on: May 08, 2007, 11:30:07 am »
1/4 or 1/8 W will work fine in that configuration based on 100 ohm resistors.

Just to be safe what color are your LEDs and what ma do they run at?
« Last Edit: May 08, 2007, 11:31:47 am by BobA »

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Re: LED wiring question with diagrams
« Reply #7 on: May 08, 2007, 12:34:45 pm »
A couple of comments:

First, the resistor can be on either side of the LED.  It's a circuit, so placing it in series anywhere in the circuit will have the same effect.  The resistor limits the flow of current, just as a valve limits the flow of water in a hose.  If you had a flow meter in the center of the hose, placing the valve on either side of the meter would result in the same amount of flow through the meter.

And the other is...technically, you should be able to drive multiple identical LED's through one resistor, as long as it's large enough to handle the combined wattage of all the LED's in the circuit.  EE types frown on this approach because of the manufacturing variances in the LED's, which makes it difficult to know just the right value to use when multiples are considered.  It also has the effect of cooking every LED in the circuit if one of them should happen to blow (the current the blown one used would then no longer be consumed, so it would be distributed to the other LEDs, creating an over current situation.)  But if you don't mind taking that chance, and you don't run them at the bleeding edge of tolerance, then you can simplify things a bit by ganging them.

However, for a single, standard 20ma superbright, !/8 watt will be plenty.  1/4 watts are more common, so they are often easier to find.  You can always go bigger without a problem, just not smaller.

RandyT

« Last Edit: May 08, 2007, 12:40:13 pm by RandyT »

Timoe

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Re: LED wiring question with diagrams
« Reply #8 on: May 08, 2007, 06:23:19 pm »
Thanks Randy.  I wish I could just order through you when we order all our other stuff.  You sure you cant get some violet or pink button plaster leds?

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Re: LED wiring question with diagrams
« Reply #9 on: May 08, 2007, 07:13:18 pm »
I am totally uncertain about this but it seems to me that you could wire two serial pairs of LEDs in parallel, assuming that the LEDs were rated for >2.5v each.

Is that not correct, I could swear I have looked around and seen equations that make this sound correct?  Randy?  I would totally trust your opinion on the matter if you happen to check this thread again.

SavannahLion

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Re: LED wiring question with diagrams
« Reply #10 on: May 08, 2007, 11:21:10 pm »
I am totally uncertain about this but it seems to me that you could wire two serial pairs of LEDs in parallel, assuming that the LEDs were rated for >2.5v each.

Is that not correct, I could swear I have looked around and seen equations that make this sound correct?  Randy?  I would totally trust your opinion on the matter if you happen to check this thread again.

Thinking of this maybe?

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Re: LED wiring question with diagrams
« Reply #11 on: May 09, 2007, 12:29:27 am »
I hadn't seen that, it seems cool.  I still don't understand why it insists on putting resistors in every example I come up with though, including 2v source, 2v LEDs, any number.

MonMotha

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Re: LED wiring question with diagrams
« Reply #12 on: May 09, 2007, 03:16:39 am »
An issue is that LEDs are specified with a "typical" forward voltage drop at the rated current.  They are quite non-linear in terms of their current/voltage characteristics, so the resistor is used to keep the current in check across process variation.  Your power source is also a "typical" rating, and it may vary some (+/- 10% is not uncommon for a large power supply!).  This variation is the reason for avoiding paralleling of LEDs as well as the reason why designers almost always put a series resistor in and run the LED from a supply slightly higher than its rated forward voltage drop.

Consider: you have a 2V source and are given a "2V @ 20mA" LED.  Your 2V source typically can supply several times this current.  Say that your "2V" LED exhibits only 1.85V drop at 20mA.  Say also your voltage source is running a little high and is putting out 2.2V.  At 2.2V, this specific LED might conduct 40-60mA.  Remember, this isn't a resistor - the dependency of current on voltage is not linear, it's actually exponential!  60mA at 2.2V is 132mW, compared with the expected power dissipation at 1.85V/20mA (the LEDs are rated for current) of only 37mW.  Clearly, this is several times larger.  In fact, it's so much larger that the LED will probably be damaged.

Consider this same situation, but we will instead use a 5V supply.  We choose the resistor for the "typical" characteristics of 2V Vf, 20mA, 5V supply and arrive at a (5-2)/0.02 = 150 ohm resistor.  Now, let's say that our supply is running at 5.2V and the LED is dropping 1.85V (the current is unkown - you have to characterize the LED to figure it out, which I won't do).  If you solve for current, you get 22mA, very close to the rating (and you always derate a little to account for a situation like this).

As you can see, this makes the system much less susceptible to component variation.  What you're doing is swamping the non-linear behavior of the LED with the linear behavior of the resistor.  The only expense is the resistor itself and the small power dissipated in the resistor (~60-70mW in this case).

Another option is to run the LED from a voltage source which, even accounting for tolerance in both parts - usually given, will always be below the specified forward voltage of the LED at rated current.  For example, if we again assume our LED process results in a lowest-case voltage of 1.85V, and our power supply is +/- 10%, we can use a 1.85-0.185 = 1.665V supply.  This will come at the expense of usually resulting in a significantly dimmer LED, but it does reduce cost and is often done when you want to run an LED straight off batteries such as in a keychain flashlight.

If you don't like my simplification of not characterizing the LED, you can iterate a few times and come reasonably close to the actual solution: at 22mA, the LED might drop 1.87V instead of 1.85 (since our presumption was 1.85@20mA), for example, giving a current of 22.2mA (instead of 22.3).  As you can see, it won't change much.

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Re: LED wiring question with diagrams
« Reply #13 on: May 09, 2007, 04:00:37 am »
Remember, this isn't a resistor - the dependency of current on voltage is not linear, it's actually exponential!

So if I am thinking of LEDs the same way I would think about the power going through a series of light bulbs, I am thinking wrong?  With a lamp, if it is rated at 6v and I run 2 in series hooked to a 12v supply I will not blow the lamps because they DO act as a resistor, correct?  And what I am hearing is that it is not the same with an LED?  I think I have been oversimplifing LEDs in my head.  If I am understanding what you are saying... even if you had a perfectly stable PS you would not be able to run 2 2.5v LEDs in series on a 5v PS w/o a resistor?

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Re: LED wiring question with diagrams
« Reply #14 on: May 09, 2007, 04:35:00 am »
What I've always understood it that it's the current what matters to a LED, not the voltage.
You will always need some resistor in series with the LED's, unless maybe youput 20 or so LED's in series.

I put three led's in series (for my three buttons per player) with a single resistor and this works fine. I don't see the point of using three seperate resistors and wiring in parallel for this type of application. LED's last "forever", as long as you don't do crazy things with them....

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Re: LED wiring question with diagrams
« Reply #15 on: May 09, 2007, 08:58:46 am »
Don't think of an LED as a resistive load.   It is a diode which conducts current and destroys itself if it does not have an additional resistor to limit the current.   You can put multiple LEDs in series with a single resistor, it is just not the ideal way to arrange them as the voltage across each LED can vary due to internal variation.   If all LEDs are the rated the same it usually works fine.


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Re: LED wiring question with diagrams
« Reply #16 on: May 09, 2007, 10:54:32 am »
I think I have been oversimplifing LEDs in my head.  If I am understanding what you are saying... even if you had a perfectly stable PS you would not be able to run 2 2.5v LEDs in series on a 5v PS w/o a resistor?

I don't think you've oversimplified, rather you just haven't taken into account the fact that perfect circumstances don't really exist in practice.  Theoretically, if you had a perfect power supply of 5v and two perfect 2.5v LEDs, yes, you should be able to use them in series without a resistor.  The problem is, electronic components have tolerances associated with them (as do power supplies.)  That means your supply isn't putting out exactly 5v (usually up to 10% is considered a reasonable deviation) and your LEDs aren't operating at exactly 2.5v. 

Obviously, just because there is a deviation it doesn't automatically indicate that your LEDs will be damaged in the configuration you propose.  It's likely just as possible that the output of the power supply will be lower than the 5v, and in that case things would be fine.  But it's a gamble, and who's to say that the output of the supply will stay where it is as the loads change or the components start to age?  So it's always better to use a resistor, even if it's a very small one, to account for tolerances and variations in supply outputs.

And then there are other things to consider, like modulation.  If an LED is modulated, it can usually handle greater currents.  So the type of application enters the equation as well.

The long and short of it is that your LED will last longer if you you run them a hair dimmer than they are rated.  Sometimes this happens by default, as the exact resistor values one needs for a circuit aren't always easily available.  In that case, the next highest resistor value is used so more current is blocked.    LED's are cheap, but your time probably isn't.  For most, installing new LEDs in 8 years instead of the 11 years they are usually rated for isn't going to be a big deal from a cash standpoint (especially since super bright LED's will probably be very cheap and commonplace by then) but replacing all of them as they burn out might not be much fun.  Better to take a few minutes extra to add a resistor when you first install them and possibly get many more years of service.

RandyT

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Re: LED wiring question with diagrams
« Reply #17 on: May 10, 2007, 12:12:31 am »
Thanks for the replies everybody.  I suppose I will have to go with the resistors when I use LEDs, it's not like they cost anything. 

I am going to have to study up on some of the components in basic electronic circuits, I have a fairly strong understanding of basic electrical ideas, I wire motors and lights and motor control hardware as part of my job, but resistors, diodes, caps, coils and the like are still a little fogy for me.  The idea of current needing to be blocked sounds totally odd to me, I was fairly sure that current was something available from a power supply and drawn out of it by the item using the power, not something that the power supply could force upon the parts of the circuit.

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Re: LED wiring question with diagrams
« Reply #18 on: May 10, 2007, 08:05:58 am »
  The idea of current needing to be blocked sounds totally odd to me, I was fairly sure that current was something available from a power supply and drawn out of it by the item using the power, not something that the power supply could force upon the parts of the circuit.
youre gonna kick yourself . lights etc are fused to prevent power surges, so of course youre aware that power needs to be blocked . its just more finite control in electronics as opposed to big ass fuses in lights.  :cheers:
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Re: LED wiring question with diagrams
« Reply #19 on: May 10, 2007, 11:06:01 am »
The idea of current needing to be blocked sounds totally odd to me, I was fairly sure that current was something available from a power supply and drawn out of it by the item using the power, not something that the power supply could force upon the parts of the circuit.

That's only part of the equation.

I don't like to use the water analogy (since it doesn't paint the whole picture, but for our purposes it will suffice) and I don't have it pinned down exactly myself.

I think what you're thinking of is amperage. How fat the "pipe" is for the water (electricity) to flow through. The bigger the pipe, the more water that can pass through. You can use a power supply that pumps out, say 5 amps at 5 volts and if your device uses only 2 amps, then that's what it will use.

Volts is akin to the water pressure in the pipe. Too much water pressure and you can burst the pipes in your home. Again, if the device only requires 5 volts, but you attach a 10 volt power supply, you'll break the device.

What the group is discussing (in general) is the voltage being pushed through. An LED only wants 2 volts, but you're trying to shove 5 volts through it. The resistor reduces the "pressure" so you don't break it. Amps is part of the equation, but seeing as how we have plenty of it, it's generally disregarded.

Try not to depend on that water analogy for everything though. It's what confused me for years before I discovered I was looking at the whole thing wrong.

If I'm way off on my explanation, please correct me. I don't want to be confused anymore  ;D
« Last Edit: May 10, 2007, 11:11:50 am by SavannahLion »

bfauska

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Re: LED wiring question with diagrams
« Reply #20 on: May 10, 2007, 11:27:07 pm »
  The idea of current needing to be blocked sounds totally odd to me, I was fairly sure that current was something available from a power supply and drawn out of it by the item using the power, not something that the power supply could force upon the parts of the circuit.
youre gonna kick yourself . lights etc are fused to prevent power surges, so of course youre aware that power needs to be blocked . its just more finite control in electronics as opposed to big ass fuses in lights.  :cheers:


Fuses actually protect the wiring from a device that tries to draw too much current or has too little resistance.  If a device shorts out (zero resistance) the wiring will get too hot and potentially start a fire.  If the device draws too much current, same thing.  I see what you are saying (sort of) but I don't know that the correlation is correct.

Savannah:  I was suggesting wiring in series.  Objects wired in series will devide up the available power amongst each other, if they are identical then they would split the power evenly, two lamps rated for 5v ea would survive wired in series to a 10v power supply, look at Christmas lights for an example (many low voltage lights in series sharing 120v), wire the same lights in parallel and they each get 10v and blow up (from experience in my youth.)

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Re: LED wiring question with diagrams
« Reply #21 on: May 11, 2007, 12:56:29 am »
Savannah:  I was suggesting wiring in series.  Objects wired in series will devide up the available power amongst each other, if they are identical then they would split the power evenly, two lamps rated for 5v ea would survive wired in series to a 10v power supply, look at Christmas lights for an example (many low voltage lights in series sharing 120v), wire the same lights in parallel and they each get 10v and blow up (from experience in my youth.)

That's entirely true. But a LED is considered a diode. IIRC, when they break down, I've read they turn into shorts, not open circuits like a light bulb would. I think that's one of the issues surrounding wiring LED's in series. If a LED wired in series smokes, it'll take the rest of the circuit out with it. In parallel, the resistor would prevent damage to the rest of the circit.

I could be wrong about that though. When I was a kid, I used to smoke batteries and LED's because I couldn't figure out what resistor to use. When they catch on fire, an LED just turns into an open circuit.  ;D I've yet to try and intentionally break an LED as it's described in the books just so to verify what it would do.

I'm not arguing for or against wiring series or parallel. I'm just trying to understand things better.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2007, 01:01:19 am by SavannahLion »

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Re: LED wiring question with diagrams
« Reply #22 on: May 11, 2007, 02:56:23 am »
If you are correct about the LED shorting when they go bad then this makes more sense to me.  I really should just read a few articles or tutorials or wiki pages and try to wrap my head around diodes in general, it would probably help me out.  Less playing more learning... less playing more learning.  If I hadn't brought my CP on this business trip I probably would have had a much more productive bunch of nights at my hotel.

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Re: LED wiring question with diagrams
« Reply #23 on: May 11, 2007, 03:27:50 am »
Long post with some EE theory...I apologize if this goes over peoples' heads.  I'm trying to explain this as best I can without busting out complicated math and formal circuit analysis techniques...

Most of the LEDs I've had fail due to abuse have failed as opens.  If you look inside, you can sometimes see the bond wire going to the die melted.  If it fails as a short, it'll usually promptly fry itself further into an open.

The reason that not using resistors with diodes is not recommended is due to the non-linear nature of a diode.  With a resistor or something that looks like one, such as a light bulb, if you increase the voltage across it, the current goes up in proportion with that voltage change.  That's in fact the definiton of the resistance parameter R.  That isn't how diodes behave.  Once a diode is "on", increasing the voltage across it slightly causes a disproportionantly large increase in current flow.

Think of a diode as a switch in series with a very small resistor.  The switch is open until you get some voltage across it, about 0.6V for a silicon diode, and about 1.6V for a red LED.  After this, the switch closes and the only thing limiting the current is that very small resistor.  It isn't actually a resistor, but for small voltages and currents this works out as a good model (an engineer would call this a "first order approximation" or a "linearization" of the diode).  This very small equivalent resistance is in fact so small that many times it's valid to omit it from the model entirely.  Thus, the diode doesn't conduct any current until you reach it's "on" voltage, then it will conduct as much current as you want, until it blows up, of course.

Thus, what you do is insert a series resistor.  The series resistor lets you have a little play in how much voltage to apply in order to get the current right.  If your voltage is too low, the diode will barely conduct at all.  If it's even just a little bit too high, it would start to conduct way too much current (until it blew up or was limited by the power source).  With the series resistor, the resistor drops the additional voltage and limits the current, which you can solve for as I=V/R, where V is the voltage across the resistor, which is in turn the supply voltage minus the drop across the diode.

You can solve that for R and get R = V/I.  This in fact is the derrivation of the formula used to bias an LED for DC operation.  You take your power supply voltage, subtract the predicted drop across the LED, divide by the current you want to flow through the LED, and find R.

The thing to remember is that, due to the nature of a diode, seemingly insignificant changes in applied voltage can cause catastrophically large changes in current.  Power is voltage times current, and too much power dissipation can kill the LED.  This is why when you design a circuit for powering an LED, your major concern is current, not the voltage across it.  If you were to have a small change in current, the change in voltage would be really, really small, and you're still OK.

If you had a method for directly controlling the current through an LED, and letting the voltage be whatever it turns out to be, you could do that.  This is actually possible: you can build a so-called "current source" using a couple transistors and a resistor, and such things are in fact common pieces of equipment on an EE lab bench.  However, it's a lot cheaper and easier to just use a resistor as the way you choose the resistor in the current source is exactly the same way you choose it in an LED power application.

All this simplification is done because the actual formula relating current through a diode and the voltage across it is rather nasty and can in fact be impossible to solve analytically in some cases: you have to solve it graphically or numerically through iterative methods.  If you're curious, the standard model for a diode or LED is the Shockley Diode Equation, and it is I_d = I_s(e^(V_d/(n*V_t)) - 1), where I_s is a parameter called the saturation current, V_d is the voltage across the LED, n (actually a greek letter "eta") is something called the emissivity coeffecient (it amounts to a fudge factor, though it does have physical meaning), and V_t is the "thermal voltage", which is 26mV at room temp (and depends on Boltzmann's constant, quantum of charge, and temperature).  In other words, the current through a diode depends on: two parameters of the diode itself, the voltage across the diode, the temperature of the diode, and two fundamental constants of physics.  Yeah, there's a reason to simplify this stuff :)

It's legit to string LEDs in series (in parallel, there are some serious problems that come up), but you have to realize that any error in the forward voltage drop will add.  So if your datasheet says to expect about 1.8V, but your LEDs all exhibit only 1.6V, and you string 10 of them together, you'll have an error of 2V from your predicted value which could be enough to cause problems.  The solution to this is assume worst case (lowest drop) and choose your resistor then.  That'll make sure that they're always safe, but will result in significantly lower brightness in the average case (and possibly non-uniform brightness if they really aren't matched well).

EDITED to make a small clarification.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2007, 12:06:19 pm by MonMotha »

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Re: LED wiring question with diagrams
« Reply #24 on: May 11, 2007, 09:28:01 am »
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This I why I buy my LEDs from Randy.  He has done all the complicated math and gives you the necessary resister for each LED.

bfauska

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Re: LED wiring question with diagrams
« Reply #25 on: May 13, 2007, 02:50:57 am »
MonMotha,

I think that helps.  Thank you for keeping it from being too much EE speak, I think you dumbed it down just about a perfect amount for me.  I am still working on learning the characteristics, strenghthness, and weeknesses of the various common parts in an electronic circuit, so it may take a while to FULLY understand this stuff, but I'm working on it.