Author Topic: Wanted: Outgassed Dot Matrix pinball display (Read 11906 times)

ChadTower · « **Reply #40 on:** May 08, 2007, 01:29:56 pm »

Dude, email this guy quick. Pick up lots of spare parts if you can get them cheap. Ramps and plastics are always great to get.

2PacMan · « **Reply #41 on:** May 09, 2007, 08:17:43 am »

Wow, what a stroke of luck, I just emailed him asking if he'd sell me the dot matrix driver board. I also inquired about all the playfield plastics. I'll let you know what he says! Thanks for pointing this out for me ChadTower, this might be the thing that saves the day.

2PacMan · « **Reply #42 on:** May 09, 2007, 02:54:58 pm »

Darn, looks like I was too late on this. Alot of the good plastics are already spoken for. The only ones left are the flat plastic ones that go by the flipper slings and stuff like that. And i'm 3rd on the list for the DMD board, he said if the other 2 fall through, I can get it. Doesn't sound real promising, but i'll keep my fingers crossed.

ChadTower · « **Reply #43 on:** May 09, 2007, 05:23:34 pm »

Those three U shaped things are heat sinks, attached to transistors that are inside them. They are not included because heat sinks don't fail, they're just pieces of metal. The transistors, I would assume, are included in the HV rebuild kit. You can just unscrew the transistor from the heat sink, put the new transistor onto the PCB, put the heat sink back in, drop in a little thermal compound between them, then screw them back together.

2PacMan · « **Reply #44 on:** May 10, 2007, 08:37:17 am »

OK Chadtower, I got gutsy last night and decided to start taking some DMM readings at where the DMD driver board connects to the DMD display. I found the info on marvin3m's site in the Williams/Bally section. He says the readings should be:
Pin 1: -125 volts (-110 to -130 volts); Williams lowered this voltage to -115.
Pin 2: -113 volts (-98 to -118 volts); Williams lowered this voltage to -103.
Pin 3: Key
Pin 4: Ground
Pin 5: Ground
Pin 6: +5 volts (4.9 to 5.2 volts)
Pin 7: +12 volts (10 to 14 volts)
Pin 8: +62 volts (58 to 68 volts)

But when I measured it, i got:
Pin 1: .67
Pin 2: .73
Pin 3: Key
Pin 4: Ground
Pin 5: Ground
Pin 6: +5 volts
Pin 7: +12 volts
Pin 8: +65

So it looks like everything checks out except pins 1 & 2, in which case marvin's site says the high voltage section needs to be rebuilt. That's just what we thought. So I got even more gutsy and pulled the board out. I took some pics of the front and the back and there definitely is some burned areas on both sides. I got in touch with Great Plains Electronics and i'm going to pick up a rebuild kit on Saturday. So now I just need to find someone that can solder in the components for me. IF I can get that done, hopefully the DMD will work, then I should be good to go. Seems like i'm getting on the right track.....anyway, here are the pics.

ChadTower · « **Reply #45 on:** May 10, 2007, 08:51:51 am »

Good stuff. That actually isn't damaged very much if at all. I don't even see delaminated traces, nevermind burned ones. Of course, that's only from a jpg, but it's a really good sign. I don't see any burn damage on the front at all - that looks more like dust buildup that every HV section pulls in.

Did you really get 5.0v and 12.0v? I almost never see exact voltages.

Don't be too surprised if we get this rebuilt and it starts popping the DMD fuse. Sometimes, what kills the HV section is when the DMD dies and starts yanking too many amps.

Who sold you this as fully working? Clearly, this wasn't close, and a good seller should be willing to help you out here. Many pin buyers would have been pissing and moaning up a storm like they were out a grand.

We probably want to have this topic moved to Arcade Misc by now. This stopped being a BST thread a long time ago.

2PacMan · « **Reply #46 on:** May 10, 2007, 09:18:40 am »

So even if I get this rebuilt and it starts tripping the fuse, then what do I do? Just order a new DMD?

I actually found a guy close to where I live that has offered to test my DMD display for me, so I should be able to rule that out here hopefully within a week or so, we're trying to arrange a time.

When measuring, I got like 5.something and 12. something....i just rounded off for convenience sake.

Well, the story is that when I contacted the guy he told me it was fully working. Well, I drove and hour and a half and got to his warehouse, which he hadn't been to in a few months. His quote was "the last time I was here it worked". I mean, we plugged it in and played it and then we both realized it wasn't 100% working. He offered to take some $$ off if I still wanted it. I was kind of bummed about it not working 100%, since he clearly did not make sure it was fully working before he told me that, but the sale took place with me fully knowing it was not 100%. I wasn't about to leave empty handed after driving a total of over 3 hours there and back. I just figured it'd be easier for me just to get this home and fix it there then leaving and waiting for him to fix it and then driving back again, or missing out on the game completely. As I said, this was my #1 most wanted game for my arcade, and i've never seen one around here, so I couldn't pass it up. I don't want to complain or anything like that, I just get dissapointed, not mad, I just want to get it working then everything will be right in the world.

ChadTower · « **Reply #47 on:** May 10, 2007, 10:15:36 am »

If you knew before making the purchase, as you say, that the DMD was out, then all is well. That's how it should be.

Getting that DMD tested in another game is the right thing to do here. If you get the driver rebuilt, and the DMD tests well, you shouldn't have the fuse issue. The last one I did was my own Shadow where it was popping that fuse... the HV was burned way worse than yours, so I rebuilt that, and it still popped the fuse. That's when I took the DMD to a friend's place, we put it in his Roadshow, and it didn't work there either. Then we popped my rebuilt driver into the Roadshow with his DMD and it worked fine, so we knew the driver was good. Of course, when testing unknown state HV parts into someone's machine, there is some small risk to that person's machine, so don't just go doing it if the other person isn't aware of that.

2PacMan · « **Reply #48 on:** May 10, 2007, 10:41:23 am »

Yeah, I was aware at least. The guy told me the DMD probably just gassed out. Now whether or not he knew the diver board was fried, who knows? I probably would have bought it anyway though. I'm not sure what to hope for. A replacement DMD would be an easier, but more expensive fix. And the driver board would be much cheaper to fix, but harder. I just hope both aren't bad....but knowing my luck and how you described things, that's probably what it is. Even though the driver board looks pretty good, after getting the voltages that I measured, there's no way it can be good, can it? And the driver board wouldn't just fry for no reason would it? The DMD would have had to have gone bad in order for the driver board to fry, right?

The local here agreed to test the display in his game, i doubt he'll let me test my driver board in his game too, I don't want to damage one of his games in the process....i don't want to push my luck

.

ChadTower · « **Reply #49 on:** May 10, 2007, 10:50:30 am »

Those things usually happen in combination but not always... the HV circuits on those boards are first gen, which always have issues, plus they always ran hot. Remember that a pin wasn't designed to work in the long term. It's very much a case of planned obsolescence. We're talking 4-5 years on route max with no plans for use in the home after that.

There are times when the DMD just dies because something on it died, like a resistor. There are times when the HV circuit just fries a bit because it's hot. There are times when one can cause the other depending on what individual part (out of dozens) died first.

Owning pins isn't like owning vids. They die a lot if they're not really well shopped. Owning pins can get expensive for the person who isn't going to learn basic pin repair. Look at it this way... you're already extending your skills, and you'll find next time one of your vids fails it is so much easier to troubleshoot and fix in comparison.

2PacMan · « **Reply #50 on:** May 10, 2007, 11:11:18 am »

You are very right. I feel like i've already learned so much about pins in the last few days or so thanks to your advice and my reading on marvin's site. The other 2 pins I have work well, so i've never needed to get real involved on the fixing side of things. I just want it fixed, i've waited so long to get this game, and now that i have it, just having it sit in my basement powered off is killing me.

Zero_Hour · « **Reply #51 on:** May 10, 2007, 06:35:16 pm »

I've got nothing much to offer in the way of fixing the problem 2PacMan, but I do happen to have a PDF of the SM Manual if you are still looking for one. Drop me a PM and I'd be happy to send you a copy.

2PacMan · « **Reply #52 on:** May 11, 2007, 10:55:56 am »

pm sent! Thank you.

ChadTower · « **Reply #53 on:** May 11, 2007, 12:23:28 pm »

He got less than 1v on two of the HV pins.

ChadTower · « **Reply #54 on:** May 11, 2007, 12:36:02 pm »

Could be, if he's got the wrong pinouts up there. I didn't verify.

He'll find out when he does the swap.

So what's on pin 1 and 2 for Gottlieb? As I've been saying, I can't see marvin3m from here.

shardian · « **Reply #55 on:** May 11, 2007, 01:09:09 pm »

Quote from: pinballjim on May 11, 2007, 01:05:29 pm

IIRC, I don't have a manual closeby, they read about 90V, but they have to be read with a display hooked up. I don't think they read anything with no load.

This is true.

2PacMan · « **Reply #56 on:** May 11, 2007, 01:52:17 pm »

Wow, thanks for this new advice guys. I did all my measurements with the DMD hooked up. I did read on marvin's page not to connect/disconnect the DMD with the power on, so i've turned off the power each time i've connected and disconnected the board. I did measure the voltages with no load for a few minutes and the readings were jumping all over the place. I turned off the power and plugged the display back in, i've never played any games of pinball without the display hooked up.

Tomorrow i'm going to get my display tested in another pinball from a local guy here in town, so I should be able to eliminate/confirm the display very soon. I'm also picking up a system 3 rebuild kit for 4.50. Marvin's site says these do fail sometimes and my board does have some burning marks on it. I figure worse case, i'm out 4.50 if the driver board works. Still cheaper than replacing the display if I don't have to. I should know more by the end of the weekend.

ChadTower · « **Reply #57 on:** May 11, 2007, 02:21:45 pm »

He's not even out $4.50 if the kit isn't needed, they're useful components to have around anyway. It's not like any of them are proprietary.

2PacMan · « **Reply #58 on:** May 11, 2007, 02:38:31 pm »

I totally agree with both parties. I'm going to order a new display first thing Monday morning if it doesn't work in that guy's machine tomorrow. Also, like Chad said, it's probably good to have that rebuild kit around just in case. Even if I ordered a new display today, it probably wouldn't go out until Monday anyways, so i think i'm ok for now.

ChadTower · « **Reply #59 on:** May 12, 2007, 01:20:28 pm »

I'm not seeing where he says what machines the other guy has to try it in... if he has a Gottlieb, it is a good test.

2PacMan · « **Reply #60 on:** May 13, 2007, 06:08:09 pm »

OK, I went to the guy's house, and we tested it in his World Cup Soccer (we both knew it wasn't Gottlieb, but we just tried anyway). The display barely came up, just a few lines. So now I know it's bad. Then we unplugged my display and when we put his back in, he couldn't get his to come back up. He thought we probably just blew a fuse, hopefully that's all it was, I felt kind of bad about it, he didn't seem to mind too much and thought it'd be an easy fix. I also brought my high voltage board to him, he thought it looked OK, so we'll see.

Then I went to Great Plains Electronics and picked up the DMD board rebuild kit just to be on the safe side. The guy there also looked at my board and thought it looked ok, but did notice some burning around one transistor. He recommended I just install the kit anyway, since the parts will fail, but I'm not going to unless I have to....but I have the kit if need be.

So my next step is I'm ordering a new DMD from pinballlife, and once I get it, i'll go from there. Hopefully i'll be up and running. Knowing my display is bad raised some hopes for me that I might be able to get this running soon....can't wait for the display to arrive.

2PacMan · « **Reply #61 on:** May 13, 2007, 08:02:56 pm »

Well, in all fairness, they just said it "looked" fine, they just did visual inspections, both said there's really no way to tell 100% just by looking at it. It's possible both the driver board and display went out, but I just hope that isn't the case. I'll know for sure when pinball life ships me my order. I just really hope you are right Pinballjim, I don't want to have to solder new components on that board, i'll be screwed. I don't want to think too positively yet and jinx anything

ChadTower · « **Reply #62 on:** May 14, 2007, 07:46:39 am »

Hey, I'll be happy if his driver board is fine. Makes it an easier fix for him. Not sure why jim feels the need to be such a

. The advice was sound, I just didn't doublecheck his numbers for him, seeing as how they are all laid out in the guide, and even told him I wasn't doublechecking his numbers for him.

We were just trying to save him $100 if it wasn't absolutely necessary.

ChadTower · « **Reply #63 on:** May 14, 2007, 10:19:37 am »

Request it.

SirPeale · « **Reply #64 on:** May 14, 2007, 12:22:53 pm »

Chad isn't the one I'm considering banning for bad attitude.

ChadTower · « **Reply #65 on:** May 14, 2007, 12:24:57 pm »

Set up an attitude checkpoint for his user account!

2PacMan · « **Reply #66 on:** May 18, 2007, 08:09:03 am »

OK, well the new DMD arrived last night. I plugged it in and nothing. So I'm looking at the manual, and there's a DMD display fuse in the bottom of the pin, so I check it. It's a 3/8 slow blow fuse. Sure enough, it's blown. I put in my replacement one, it blows that one too. I pulled the 3/8 slo blow from my other pinball machine, it blew that one too. What could be causing this? Is my next step rebuilding the driver board? Needless to say, I was pretty dissapointed it still doesn't work.

Now i'm out of 3/8 slo blo fuses. Any chain type stores sell this? I checked Home Depot and Radio Shack last night and neither had them. I hate to place on online order for a few fuses, but maybe that's what i'll have to do

ChadTower · « **Reply #67 on:** May 18, 2007, 09:05:26 am »

Try an auto parts store, they sell a wider range of that size fuse. Take an inventory of all of the fuses in your pins. With your next parts order, throw in some of every type. It will only run you a few bucks but will be really helpful next time you start blowing one like that.

I'd say, try the new DMD in another pin if you can, confirm it works. After that, the driver rebuild is a good step to take that certainly won't hurt if it doesn't fix the issue. See if marvin3m has a troubleshooting step specifically for blowing that fuse, too.

2PacMan · « **Reply #68 on:** May 18, 2007, 09:10:05 am »

Are all 3/8 amp fuses 'slow blow'? Do I need to specify that? When I was at Home Depot last night, none of the fuses they had said 'slow blow' on them. Is that just a given, or are there 'slow blow' and 'regular' fuses in the 3/8ths size. I asked the guy if he had any slow blow fuses and he looked like he had no idea what i was talking about.

ChadTower · « **Reply #69 on:** May 18, 2007, 09:12:49 am »

Quote from: 2PacMan on May 18, 2007, 09:10:05 am

Are all 3/8 amp fuses 'slow blow'? Do I need to specify that?

No and yes. It's all about how long they can tolerate being reasonably over spec. A fast blow is designed to pop immediately. A slow blow will hang on for a short time, for stuff like initial startup current draw. You can tell the difference by looking at the filament. Fast blow is just one thin strand, slow blow will be a coil or something with a little more meat to it.

2PacMan · « **Reply #70 on:** May 18, 2007, 09:19:17 am »

I see....I have a few 3/8ths fuses around the house, and I couldn't tell if they were fast or slow blow fuses. They have the winding filament in them, but it didnt' look as thick as the ones I pulled from the pinball. It wouldn't hurt anything to try them, would it? I mean, if I put a fast blow one in there by accident, it wouldn't do any damage, would it?

ChadTower · « **Reply #71 on:** May 18, 2007, 09:22:36 am »

Putting in a fast blow wouldn't hurt anything but it might pop immediately just because of initial current draw. That's why there is a slow blow in there.

2PacMan · « **Reply #72 on:** May 18, 2007, 10:15:12 am »

Hmm, the guide doesn't really talk much about that fuse. Would a bad driver board cause that fuse to blow? Or do you think it's something else causing the fuse to blow, which in turn, is causing the DMD not to work?

ChadTower · « **Reply #73 on:** May 18, 2007, 10:23:43 am »

A bad driver would pop the fuse. The only other thing I can think of is some type of short in that circuit, which would take some learning and trial and error on your part to find. Maybe a bad fuse clip but on a 3/8A holder I doubt that. Is the fuse holder showing any sign of heat damage or poor contact?

2PacMan · « **Reply #74 on:** May 18, 2007, 10:45:50 am »

well, it does say in marvin's guide that that fuse holder can go bad. It's one of those screw in vertical type fuse holders. It looks fine to me, and you'd think if it wasn't making contact, it wouldn't blow the fuse. Just nothing would happen and the fuse would still be good because nothing would be making contact. Am I right on this assumption?

ChadTower · « **Reply #75 on:** May 18, 2007, 10:55:50 am »

You're right on a completely bad fuse holder. An intermittent one can cause some voltage spikes/drops and a burned one ups resistance, and thus heat, and can cause easier failure of a fuse. Check the backside of the holder, maybe reflow the solder connections, and see if anything looks burned. Odds are if it doesn't look burned or bent the fuse holder is fine.

2PacMan · « **Reply #76 on:** May 18, 2007, 11:07:58 am »

I think for now, i'll assume the fuse holder is good and concentrate on the driver board, which most likely is the culprit.

Do you know of any way to test exactly which component of the high voltage section of the board is bad? Is it best just to have someone do the whole kit? If i just need one component replaced, I might be able to wing it myself.

ChadTower · « **Reply #77 on:** May 18, 2007, 12:46:00 pm »

If you're going to do any of them do all of them. If you just replace what is dead right now you have no idea of knowing which of those other components are just about to die or are just out of spec actually causing the dead ones to have died. Many things you can just locate the dead component and replace, an HV circuit you're better off doing the whole thing.

If you really want to find just the dead parts, you'll have to learn how to test each type of component in the circuit. Unless I'm mistaken there are no complex chips in there so they should all be testable with your DMM in appropriate modes.

2PacMan · « **Reply #78 on:** May 30, 2007, 09:05:18 am »

Update.......Well, I finally got a tech out to my place to look at the pin. He tested the dot matrix driver board and sure enough, i was missing the high voltage part just like we discussed earlier. He started testing the board and found a diode that wasn't reading correctly. He said he's going to install my entire driver board rebuild kit for me, so now that's where i'm at on this. He said he should have it done in a few days. I'm hoping that's all that is wrong with it. Would one bad diode cause the high voltage portion to go bad? It was kind of off to the left of the high voltage area, in a row of like 7 or 8 other diodes.

SirPeale · « **Reply #79 on:** May 30, 2007, 09:14:12 am »

Diodes channel current in a particular direction, so if it goes bad it's reasonable that bad things will happen.


Main	Restorations	Software	Audio/Jukebox/MP3	Everything Else	Buy/Sell/Trade
Project Announcements	Monitor/Video	GroovyMAME	Merit/JVL Touchscreen	Meet Up	Retail Vendors
Driving & Racing	Woodworking	Software Support Forums	Consoles	Project Arcade	Reviews
Automated Projects	Artwork	Frontend Support Forums	Pinball	Forum Discussion	Old Boards
Raspberry Pi & Dev Board	controls.dat	Linux	Miscellaneous Arcade	Wiki Discussion	Old Archives
Lightguns	Arcade1Up	Try the site in https mode		Site News


Unread posts \| New Replies \| Recent posts \| Rules \| Chatroom \| Wiki \| File Repository \| RSS \| Submit news