Author Topic: Wanted: Outgassed Dot Matrix pinball display (Read 11909 times)

2PacMan · « **on:** May 07, 2007, 08:26:14 am »

I was wondering if anyone had an outgassed Dot Matrix display for pinball games. I bought a pinball and my DMD is completely dead. I have no other DMDs to test this with. So I was hoping someone might have an old useless DMD that shows some slight activity that I can plug in to see if I do indeed need a new DMD or if it is something else causing the problem. I could even ship it back to you if you wanted it back, I just need it for testing. Thanks!

ChadTower · « **Reply #1 on:** May 07, 2007, 08:59:10 am »

I keep one around for just that reason... I'm sure on RGP you can pick one up cheap. I'd ship you mine but they ship very poorly.

What pin is it? How are you sure it's the DMD? DMD driver boards are common failures.

2PacMan · « **Reply #2 on:** May 07, 2007, 09:45:05 am »

It is a Gottlieb Super Mario pinball. It's the first (and probably only) DMD machine i've ever owned. The guy I was buying it from said it worked 100%. I drove 100 mi to meet him to pick up the game, when we got there, the DMD was not working. He said "it looks like it just needs a new DMD, i'll knock some $$ off my price so you can buy a new one, they run about $130.00." I couldn't really leave empty handed after driving for so long, so we agreed on a new price.

I just wanted to make sure it really is a bad DMD before I shell out 130.00 ordering a new one. I was reading on marvin's site that it's possible it could be the DMD driver board, as they cause problems as well. I would be in over my head when it comes to fixing those, and would probably have a tech come out if that is indeed the problem. I don't notice any burned areas on the driver board. The DMD is just completely black, no signs of life at all. But the LED lights on all the circuit boards inside the head flash and communicate normally.

Is it common for a DMD to be completely burned out by now? I think the game was made in 1992. Thanks for your help/advice Chadtower.

ChadTower · « **Reply #3 on:** May 07, 2007, 09:51:13 am »

DMDs can be burned out by now, the DMD could be dead, any of the connectors in the line could be loose from moving it, the fuse could be blown... if you just moved it like that, it's not a good idea at all to buy a new DMD yet. Start running through all of the trouble shooting steps at marvin3m for that boardset. Reseat the connectors, check the fuse, whip out your DMM and check the DMD driver board test points for proper voltages (marvin3m will tell you exactly what they should be).

2PacMan · « **Reply #4 on:** May 07, 2007, 09:53:45 am »

Thanks Chad....is there anything to look for on my old DMD to see if it's dead or not? Like is there some kind of continuity test I can perform on it? I reseated the connectors to the DMD board itself with no luck. I haven't tried reseating all the connectors throughout the pinball though.

ChadTower · « **Reply #5 on:** May 07, 2007, 09:56:41 am »

Look up the DMD driver test point voltages and test those. See if your board is getting proper levels. That will tell you instantly where the problem is likely to be.

Do you have a DMM and know how to use it?

2PacMan · « **Reply #6 on:** May 07, 2007, 10:10:08 am »

I have one, but don't really know how to use it. I've done continuity tests with it, but that's about it. When we were picking up the pin, he did continuity tests on all the fuses, and they all checked out, so i've ruled that out at least. I'm not even sure what settings to put it on or where to stick the probes when it comes to measuring voltages on a board.

ChadTower · « **Reply #7 on:** May 07, 2007, 10:21:47 am »

If you're going to get into pins, you need to learn to do this anyway, so let's get on it.

Dammit, my work proxy has blocked Marvin3m's site, so I can't look up the voltages and help you along. Go to the Gottlieb section for your pin, I think it's System80 but double check that. It will have a very detailed description of checking the DMD driver board test points.

Also, look in your manual, and learn how to set your DMM to test AC and DC voltages. You're very likely going to have to be testing DC voltages here, 3-4 different values. All it is is putting your DMM in the right mode, putting one lead on a test point, and the other lead on any ground point, then looking at the value displayed. There is no danger in getting the leads reversed as all that will happen is your value will be displayed as negative instead of positive.

shardian · « **Reply #8 on:** May 07, 2007, 10:33:53 am »

Quote from: ChadTower on May 07, 2007, 10:21:47 am

Dammit, my work proxy has blocked Marvin3m's site, so I can't look up the voltages and help you along. Go to the Gottlieb section for your pin, I think it's System80 but double check that. It will have a very detailed description of checking the DMD driver board test points.

http://www.the-cloak.com/login.html

Try that. I used it back when I worked for Corps of Engineers to access my webmail.

ChadTower · « **Reply #9 on:** May 07, 2007, 10:35:50 am »

Also blocked. $:-\$

2PacMan · « **Reply #10 on:** May 07, 2007, 10:45:24 am »

OK, i'm on marvin's site now. It looks like Super Mario is a System3 game. Looks like I need to be looking at the DMD controller board. I'm reading up on it now. It says if you change the DMD with the power on, it could blow one of the transistors in the high voltage section of the board. I guess this could be a possibility.

ChadTower · « **Reply #11 on:** May 07, 2007, 10:55:03 am »

At this point, anything on there could be a possibility. Recheck continuity on the fuses, old ones can break when jostled.

The place to start is the DMD controller board test points. That will tell you where your next steps are going to be.

I have printed copies of the marvin3m pages at home... I guess worst case scenario is I bring them in tomorrow.

2PacMan · « **Reply #12 on:** May 07, 2007, 11:02:03 am »

OK...i'm at work right now, so this might be a little difficult as i'll probably get your advice during the day, and in the evening go home and try things and report back to you tomorrow morning.

Just to be sure, there is no way I can screw anything up by sticking the DMM probes all over the board, right? I mean, just in case i reverse the probes or stick them in the wrong place, i can't damage anything, can I? Other than the DMD, the machine seems to be working fine, and i just don't want to chance that I could make it worse.

ChadTower · « **Reply #13 on:** May 07, 2007, 11:07:20 am »

Probably not on the DMD driver board. Don't go jabbing it into straight AC places or anything while in the wrong mode, you could blow your DMM's fuse. On that particular board we're not talking about enough amps to be a problem, I think.

Just be careful not to short anything. A common way to do that is to try measuring two very close items and ending up touching the probes together, creating a bridge, and therefore shorting them out.

Test points are usually obvious. They're metal loops raised up from the PCB and don't look like components. They look more like mounting holes and are usually labeled with what they are for (i.e. 5v, 12v, 125v, etc).

2PacMan · « **Reply #14 on:** May 07, 2007, 11:27:05 am »

OK, i can measure these tonight if they are clearly labeled. I stick the red probe into the raised metal loop, but where do i stick the black probe? And should I have it set on DC? Thanks Chad.

ChadTower · « **Reply #15 on:** May 07, 2007, 11:29:28 am »

I would think it would be DC, but that's an educated guess, you'll have to check the marvin3m guide for exactly what should be there. I would anticipate having to check either 3 or 4 different voltages. The black probe you would put on some ground point, the guide will probably point you to a convenient one on the board, if there isn't a test point labeled GND.

2PacMan · « **Reply #16 on:** May 07, 2007, 11:48:55 am »

A dumb question, but just double checking....i need to have the game on to do all these tests, right?

ChadTower · « **Reply #17 on:** May 07, 2007, 11:50:47 am »

Yep. With the DMD connected, probably, as the potential load of the screen will affect your readings. That should be laid out in the guide.

ChadTower · « **Reply #18 on:** May 07, 2007, 12:41:07 pm »

One on ebay.

ChadTower · « **Reply #19 on:** May 07, 2007, 02:10:23 pm »

I'm still poking around for some resources for you... try this to learn about your DMM.

2PacMan · « **Reply #20 on:** May 07, 2007, 02:23:21 pm »

Great page, Chad thanks! I won't be able to poke around the machine until i get off of work tonight. I'll report my findings first thing tomorrow morning. Hopefully I can get some useful information that we can use to diagnose the problem.

2PacMan · « **Reply #21 on:** May 08, 2007, 08:18:18 am »

OK, Chad, had a chance to look at things last night, and it doesn't look good. I couldn't find any places to measure voltage, but there is a burn spot up in the high voltage area of the DMD driver board. So it looks like my board is bad now. Now what do I do? Do they sell replacements? It looks like a few chips on there are labelled specifically for Super Mario. Here are some pictures. The first is the burned area, the second is the whole DMD board, the third is the entire backbox inside. Can someone repair this if i send it out? Does anyone do this sort of thing. I'm really bummed right now.

ChadTower · « **Reply #22 on:** May 08, 2007, 09:17:47 am »

Looks like the HV section of your DMD driver burned up, based on the blurry pics and description. That is common. You can rebuild it with one of these kits. I had to do the same rebuild on my Shadow and bought my kit from GPE, it was great. It is really hard to see the extent of possible damage to traces in that picture. This rebuild only requires moderate through hole soldering skills, plus the ability to find and repair burned traces if necessary.

Also, if you do it, evaluate the molex connectors and male header pins on that board. If either shows signs of heat damage, replace both parts. This is a good skill to learn for vids and almost necessary for pins.

If you don't have that skillset yet, it won't be hard to find someone willing to do that repair for you for a fee.

2PacMan · « **Reply #23 on:** May 08, 2007, 09:28:34 am »

Thanks Chad! That place is right in my backyard. I literally live about 5 minutes from GPE. I'll see if I can pick up a kit. What are those black U shaped things in the top corner of the board, i see there are 3 of them and one of them has alot of burn area around it. I don't see any of those in the replacement kit. Do I need to replace one of those too?

ChadTower · « **Reply #24 on:** May 08, 2007, 09:37:18 am »

I can't tell what you are referring to, the pic is too dark, and I don't have that schematic handy. Top right or top left?

2PacMan · « **Reply #25 on:** May 08, 2007, 09:41:44 am »

It's on the top right corner as you are looking at it. Here's a pic. It's a row of 3 black u-shaped components.

ChadTower · « **Reply #26 on:** May 08, 2007, 09:44:46 am »

I see the ones you're referring to but I can't ID them based on the pic. I'd look them up on a schematic/parts list. Do you have the manuals?

2PacMan · « **Reply #27 on:** May 08, 2007, 09:51:46 am »

No, it didn't come with manuals. I'm trying to get one off of ebay.

I know you've already helped me a ton, and i appreciate it, but would you be willing to fix my board if I get that kit and send you the board along with the kit? I'd pay you of course. Or would it be better to find someone local?

ChadTower · « **Reply #28 on:** May 08, 2007, 09:54:28 am »

I would be if I had a way to test it. I don't have a Sys3 pin.

If you use torrents, there is usually a torrent or two out there that is like 4gig of pin manuals. It's worth a search. I probably have that manual on DVD at home and can try to find it tonight if you want, though I haven't accessed it in like a year and am not sure where it is right now.

2PacMan · « **Reply #29 on:** May 08, 2007, 10:00:40 am »

Thanks Chad. In all honesty, even having the manual probably wouldn't help me much. I don't know how to read schematics or anything. The only soldering i've done is wires and buttons and solenoids, stuff like that. I've never done circuit board soldering, which i've always heard shouldn't be done unless you really know what you're doing.

Maybe at this point, I should just admit i'm over my head and try to find someone that can fix this for me. Since the guy knocked some money off the price of the pin, i do have a little cash to play with as far as the repairs go (assuming the DMD works once the driver board is fixed).

One other question. I tried to pull the driver board off the inside of the head of the pinball to view the backside, and it's stuck on by white plastic tabs of some sort and i can't get it off. Is there a trick to it, or do you just pull real hard?

ChadTower · « **Reply #30 on:** May 08, 2007, 10:09:50 am »

The PCB holders are probably the same type you would see holding a motherboard inside a PC case. There would be some type of flexible tabs that if pushed in would allow you to slide the hole off the holder. Don't flex the board too hard, they're not made to be bent.

This isn't too hard a job for a first PCB work if you want to take time and be careful with it. The components are big and spaced well. Grab some old junk boards (ancient PCs are great for this) and learn to desolder components with a solder sucker. It shouldn't take that long to get the hang of it and of course there are tons of guys who can advise here. Guys here and at RGP helped me learn to solder.

Of course, there's also no shame in finding a place that will do it for you, as this is a common failure and probably won't cost that much to have someone do for you. I'd do it for a 6 pack if I had some way to test it here.

EDIT: BTW, did you read through the marvin3m section on testing those voltages? Just being dark doesn't necessarily mean it's burned up. The HV section attracts a lot more dust as it has a higher static field. I didn't look last night but I'd be shocked if marvin3m doesn't tell you exactly what to use for test points.

2PacMan · « **Reply #31 on:** May 08, 2007, 10:26:56 am »

I didn't see anything about test points on Marvin's site. Its almost like he just brushed over that secion. He talked about how changing the DMD with the power on can fry the board, and showed pics of a fried board. And then he said there was a chip that can go bad in that section that can cause garbled messages on the DMD board, but that's it really that I could see.

I really need to see if there's someone local here that has a DMD pin that i could just throw my display in, that way i could totally rule that out as being the culprit.

SirPeale · « **Reply #32 on:** May 08, 2007, 10:27:10 am »

With a pin that old, it wouldn't surprise me at all if the display just completely died.

One of the last pins I worked on came into the shop with a crappy display. I literally turned off the machine, plugged in a known-good used display to test it, but hooked the old one back up as I was going to get to it later. It did nothing at all.

But you definitely have heat damage on that board. Likely the components are okay, but you need to resolder the joints. That entails removing the old solder and resoldering, not just topping it off.

ChadTower · « **Reply #33 on:** May 08, 2007, 10:35:09 am »

Yeah, it's definitely possible that the DMD is dead. We want to rule out the cheaper solutions first before he drops $100+ on a new one. The DMD rebuild, if he can do it himself, is a worthwhile refurb job anyway.

I guess in the short term, get some alcohol and clean up that section of the board, so we can see how much of that is grime and how much is heat damage.

2PacMan, I sent out a couple emails around here to guys I know who may have a Sys3 to test in and may be willing to do the rebuild.

2PacMan · « **Reply #34 on:** May 08, 2007, 10:45:30 am »

(About the emails) thank you very much Chad. Hopefully someone can do it.

One more question for you. Is there any harm in continuing to play the game? I've been playing it the last few night with the nonworking DMD hooked up. Am I further damaging anything by doing this? Should I just leave it alone until everything is fixed?

ChadTower · « **Reply #35 on:** May 08, 2007, 10:48:03 am »

I'd disconnect it, myself.

2PacMan · « **Reply #36 on:** May 08, 2007, 11:08:10 am »

Just disconnect the DMD and continue to play it, or just stop playing the whole thing until it's fixed?

ChadTower · « **Reply #37 on:** May 08, 2007, 11:09:47 am »

Disconnect the DMD.

None of the local guys I'd recommend for mail order work seem to have a Sys3 on hand to test with. Damn.

2PacMan · « **Reply #38 on:** May 08, 2007, 11:22:58 am »

Well, thanks for trying. There's a local place here that's in "the business", maybe I can take it there. I'll probably pay more for the repair, but at this point, it might be my only choice.

ChadTower · « **Reply #39 on:** May 08, 2007, 11:23:31 am »

More for the repair, less for shipping.

ChadTower · « **Reply #40 on:** May 08, 2007, 01:29:56 pm »

Dude, email this guy quick. Pick up lots of spare parts if you can get them cheap. Ramps and plastics are always great to get.

2PacMan · « **Reply #41 on:** May 09, 2007, 08:17:43 am »

Wow, what a stroke of luck, I just emailed him asking if he'd sell me the dot matrix driver board. I also inquired about all the playfield plastics. I'll let you know what he says! Thanks for pointing this out for me ChadTower, this might be the thing that saves the day.

2PacMan · « **Reply #42 on:** May 09, 2007, 02:54:58 pm »

Darn, looks like I was too late on this. Alot of the good plastics are already spoken for. The only ones left are the flat plastic ones that go by the flipper slings and stuff like that. And i'm 3rd on the list for the DMD board, he said if the other 2 fall through, I can get it. Doesn't sound real promising, but i'll keep my fingers crossed.

ChadTower · « **Reply #43 on:** May 09, 2007, 05:23:34 pm »

Those three U shaped things are heat sinks, attached to transistors that are inside them. They are not included because heat sinks don't fail, they're just pieces of metal. The transistors, I would assume, are included in the HV rebuild kit. You can just unscrew the transistor from the heat sink, put the new transistor onto the PCB, put the heat sink back in, drop in a little thermal compound between them, then screw them back together.

2PacMan · « **Reply #44 on:** May 10, 2007, 08:37:17 am »

OK Chadtower, I got gutsy last night and decided to start taking some DMM readings at where the DMD driver board connects to the DMD display. I found the info on marvin3m's site in the Williams/Bally section. He says the readings should be:
Pin 1: -125 volts (-110 to -130 volts); Williams lowered this voltage to -115.
Pin 2: -113 volts (-98 to -118 volts); Williams lowered this voltage to -103.
Pin 3: Key
Pin 4: Ground
Pin 5: Ground
Pin 6: +5 volts (4.9 to 5.2 volts)
Pin 7: +12 volts (10 to 14 volts)
Pin 8: +62 volts (58 to 68 volts)

But when I measured it, i got:
Pin 1: .67
Pin 2: .73
Pin 3: Key
Pin 4: Ground
Pin 5: Ground
Pin 6: +5 volts
Pin 7: +12 volts
Pin 8: +65

So it looks like everything checks out except pins 1 & 2, in which case marvin's site says the high voltage section needs to be rebuilt. That's just what we thought. So I got even more gutsy and pulled the board out. I took some pics of the front and the back and there definitely is some burned areas on both sides. I got in touch with Great Plains Electronics and i'm going to pick up a rebuild kit on Saturday. So now I just need to find someone that can solder in the components for me. IF I can get that done, hopefully the DMD will work, then I should be good to go. Seems like i'm getting on the right track.....anyway, here are the pics.

ChadTower · « **Reply #45 on:** May 10, 2007, 08:51:51 am »

Good stuff. That actually isn't damaged very much if at all. I don't even see delaminated traces, nevermind burned ones. Of course, that's only from a jpg, but it's a really good sign. I don't see any burn damage on the front at all - that looks more like dust buildup that every HV section pulls in.

Did you really get 5.0v and 12.0v? I almost never see exact voltages.

Don't be too surprised if we get this rebuilt and it starts popping the DMD fuse. Sometimes, what kills the HV section is when the DMD dies and starts yanking too many amps.

Who sold you this as fully working? Clearly, this wasn't close, and a good seller should be willing to help you out here. Many pin buyers would have been pissing and moaning up a storm like they were out a grand.

We probably want to have this topic moved to Arcade Misc by now. This stopped being a BST thread a long time ago.

2PacMan · « **Reply #46 on:** May 10, 2007, 09:18:40 am »

So even if I get this rebuilt and it starts tripping the fuse, then what do I do? Just order a new DMD?

I actually found a guy close to where I live that has offered to test my DMD display for me, so I should be able to rule that out here hopefully within a week or so, we're trying to arrange a time.

When measuring, I got like 5.something and 12. something....i just rounded off for convenience sake.

Well, the story is that when I contacted the guy he told me it was fully working. Well, I drove and hour and a half and got to his warehouse, which he hadn't been to in a few months. His quote was "the last time I was here it worked". I mean, we plugged it in and played it and then we both realized it wasn't 100% working. He offered to take some $$ off if I still wanted it. I was kind of bummed about it not working 100%, since he clearly did not make sure it was fully working before he told me that, but the sale took place with me fully knowing it was not 100%. I wasn't about to leave empty handed after driving a total of over 3 hours there and back. I just figured it'd be easier for me just to get this home and fix it there then leaving and waiting for him to fix it and then driving back again, or missing out on the game completely. As I said, this was my #1 most wanted game for my arcade, and i've never seen one around here, so I couldn't pass it up. I don't want to complain or anything like that, I just get dissapointed, not mad, I just want to get it working then everything will be right in the world.

ChadTower · « **Reply #47 on:** May 10, 2007, 10:15:36 am »

If you knew before making the purchase, as you say, that the DMD was out, then all is well. That's how it should be.

Getting that DMD tested in another game is the right thing to do here. If you get the driver rebuilt, and the DMD tests well, you shouldn't have the fuse issue. The last one I did was my own Shadow where it was popping that fuse... the HV was burned way worse than yours, so I rebuilt that, and it still popped the fuse. That's when I took the DMD to a friend's place, we put it in his Roadshow, and it didn't work there either. Then we popped my rebuilt driver into the Roadshow with his DMD and it worked fine, so we knew the driver was good. Of course, when testing unknown state HV parts into someone's machine, there is some small risk to that person's machine, so don't just go doing it if the other person isn't aware of that.

2PacMan · « **Reply #48 on:** May 10, 2007, 10:41:23 am »

Yeah, I was aware at least. The guy told me the DMD probably just gassed out. Now whether or not he knew the diver board was fried, who knows? I probably would have bought it anyway though. I'm not sure what to hope for. A replacement DMD would be an easier, but more expensive fix. And the driver board would be much cheaper to fix, but harder. I just hope both aren't bad....but knowing my luck and how you described things, that's probably what it is. Even though the driver board looks pretty good, after getting the voltages that I measured, there's no way it can be good, can it? And the driver board wouldn't just fry for no reason would it? The DMD would have had to have gone bad in order for the driver board to fry, right?

The local here agreed to test the display in his game, i doubt he'll let me test my driver board in his game too, I don't want to damage one of his games in the process....i don't want to push my luck

.

ChadTower · « **Reply #49 on:** May 10, 2007, 10:50:30 am »

Those things usually happen in combination but not always... the HV circuits on those boards are first gen, which always have issues, plus they always ran hot. Remember that a pin wasn't designed to work in the long term. It's very much a case of planned obsolescence. We're talking 4-5 years on route max with no plans for use in the home after that.

There are times when the DMD just dies because something on it died, like a resistor. There are times when the HV circuit just fries a bit because it's hot. There are times when one can cause the other depending on what individual part (out of dozens) died first.

Owning pins isn't like owning vids. They die a lot if they're not really well shopped. Owning pins can get expensive for the person who isn't going to learn basic pin repair. Look at it this way... you're already extending your skills, and you'll find next time one of your vids fails it is so much easier to troubleshoot and fix in comparison.

2PacMan · « **Reply #50 on:** May 10, 2007, 11:11:18 am »

You are very right. I feel like i've already learned so much about pins in the last few days or so thanks to your advice and my reading on marvin's site. The other 2 pins I have work well, so i've never needed to get real involved on the fixing side of things. I just want it fixed, i've waited so long to get this game, and now that i have it, just having it sit in my basement powered off is killing me.

Zero_Hour · « **Reply #51 on:** May 10, 2007, 06:35:16 pm »

I've got nothing much to offer in the way of fixing the problem 2PacMan, but I do happen to have a PDF of the SM Manual if you are still looking for one. Drop me a PM and I'd be happy to send you a copy.

2PacMan · « **Reply #52 on:** May 11, 2007, 10:55:56 am »

pm sent! Thank you.

ChadTower · « **Reply #53 on:** May 11, 2007, 12:23:28 pm »

He got less than 1v on two of the HV pins.

ChadTower · « **Reply #54 on:** May 11, 2007, 12:36:02 pm »

Could be, if he's got the wrong pinouts up there. I didn't verify.

He'll find out when he does the swap.

So what's on pin 1 and 2 for Gottlieb? As I've been saying, I can't see marvin3m from here.

shardian · « **Reply #55 on:** May 11, 2007, 01:09:09 pm »

Quote from: pinballjim on May 11, 2007, 01:05:29 pm

IIRC, I don't have a manual closeby, they read about 90V, but they have to be read with a display hooked up. I don't think they read anything with no load.

This is true.

2PacMan · « **Reply #56 on:** May 11, 2007, 01:52:17 pm »

Wow, thanks for this new advice guys. I did all my measurements with the DMD hooked up. I did read on marvin's page not to connect/disconnect the DMD with the power on, so i've turned off the power each time i've connected and disconnected the board. I did measure the voltages with no load for a few minutes and the readings were jumping all over the place. I turned off the power and plugged the display back in, i've never played any games of pinball without the display hooked up.

Tomorrow i'm going to get my display tested in another pinball from a local guy here in town, so I should be able to eliminate/confirm the display very soon. I'm also picking up a system 3 rebuild kit for 4.50. Marvin's site says these do fail sometimes and my board does have some burning marks on it. I figure worse case, i'm out 4.50 if the driver board works. Still cheaper than replacing the display if I don't have to. I should know more by the end of the weekend.

ChadTower · « **Reply #57 on:** May 11, 2007, 02:21:45 pm »

He's not even out $4.50 if the kit isn't needed, they're useful components to have around anyway. It's not like any of them are proprietary.

2PacMan · « **Reply #58 on:** May 11, 2007, 02:38:31 pm »

I totally agree with both parties. I'm going to order a new display first thing Monday morning if it doesn't work in that guy's machine tomorrow. Also, like Chad said, it's probably good to have that rebuild kit around just in case. Even if I ordered a new display today, it probably wouldn't go out until Monday anyways, so i think i'm ok for now.

ChadTower · « **Reply #59 on:** May 12, 2007, 01:20:28 pm »

I'm not seeing where he says what machines the other guy has to try it in... if he has a Gottlieb, it is a good test.

2PacMan · « **Reply #60 on:** May 13, 2007, 06:08:09 pm »

OK, I went to the guy's house, and we tested it in his World Cup Soccer (we both knew it wasn't Gottlieb, but we just tried anyway). The display barely came up, just a few lines. So now I know it's bad. Then we unplugged my display and when we put his back in, he couldn't get his to come back up. He thought we probably just blew a fuse, hopefully that's all it was, I felt kind of bad about it, he didn't seem to mind too much and thought it'd be an easy fix. I also brought my high voltage board to him, he thought it looked OK, so we'll see.

Then I went to Great Plains Electronics and picked up the DMD board rebuild kit just to be on the safe side. The guy there also looked at my board and thought it looked ok, but did notice some burning around one transistor. He recommended I just install the kit anyway, since the parts will fail, but I'm not going to unless I have to....but I have the kit if need be.

So my next step is I'm ordering a new DMD from pinballlife, and once I get it, i'll go from there. Hopefully i'll be up and running. Knowing my display is bad raised some hopes for me that I might be able to get this running soon....can't wait for the display to arrive.

2PacMan · « **Reply #61 on:** May 13, 2007, 08:02:56 pm »

Well, in all fairness, they just said it "looked" fine, they just did visual inspections, both said there's really no way to tell 100% just by looking at it. It's possible both the driver board and display went out, but I just hope that isn't the case. I'll know for sure when pinball life ships me my order. I just really hope you are right Pinballjim, I don't want to have to solder new components on that board, i'll be screwed. I don't want to think too positively yet and jinx anything

ChadTower · « **Reply #62 on:** May 14, 2007, 07:46:39 am »

Hey, I'll be happy if his driver board is fine. Makes it an easier fix for him. Not sure why jim feels the need to be such a

. The advice was sound, I just didn't doublecheck his numbers for him, seeing as how they are all laid out in the guide, and even told him I wasn't doublechecking his numbers for him.

We were just trying to save him $100 if it wasn't absolutely necessary.

ChadTower · « **Reply #63 on:** May 14, 2007, 10:19:37 am »

Request it.

SirPeale · « **Reply #64 on:** May 14, 2007, 12:22:53 pm »

Chad isn't the one I'm considering banning for bad attitude.

ChadTower · « **Reply #65 on:** May 14, 2007, 12:24:57 pm »

Set up an attitude checkpoint for his user account!

2PacMan · « **Reply #66 on:** May 18, 2007, 08:09:03 am »

OK, well the new DMD arrived last night. I plugged it in and nothing. So I'm looking at the manual, and there's a DMD display fuse in the bottom of the pin, so I check it. It's a 3/8 slow blow fuse. Sure enough, it's blown. I put in my replacement one, it blows that one too. I pulled the 3/8 slo blow from my other pinball machine, it blew that one too. What could be causing this? Is my next step rebuilding the driver board? Needless to say, I was pretty dissapointed it still doesn't work.

Now i'm out of 3/8 slo blo fuses. Any chain type stores sell this? I checked Home Depot and Radio Shack last night and neither had them. I hate to place on online order for a few fuses, but maybe that's what i'll have to do

ChadTower · « **Reply #67 on:** May 18, 2007, 09:05:26 am »

Try an auto parts store, they sell a wider range of that size fuse. Take an inventory of all of the fuses in your pins. With your next parts order, throw in some of every type. It will only run you a few bucks but will be really helpful next time you start blowing one like that.

I'd say, try the new DMD in another pin if you can, confirm it works. After that, the driver rebuild is a good step to take that certainly won't hurt if it doesn't fix the issue. See if marvin3m has a troubleshooting step specifically for blowing that fuse, too.

2PacMan · « **Reply #68 on:** May 18, 2007, 09:10:05 am »

Are all 3/8 amp fuses 'slow blow'? Do I need to specify that? When I was at Home Depot last night, none of the fuses they had said 'slow blow' on them. Is that just a given, or are there 'slow blow' and 'regular' fuses in the 3/8ths size. I asked the guy if he had any slow blow fuses and he looked like he had no idea what i was talking about.

ChadTower · « **Reply #69 on:** May 18, 2007, 09:12:49 am »

Quote from: 2PacMan on May 18, 2007, 09:10:05 am

Are all 3/8 amp fuses 'slow blow'? Do I need to specify that?

No and yes. It's all about how long they can tolerate being reasonably over spec. A fast blow is designed to pop immediately. A slow blow will hang on for a short time, for stuff like initial startup current draw. You can tell the difference by looking at the filament. Fast blow is just one thin strand, slow blow will be a coil or something with a little more meat to it.

2PacMan · « **Reply #70 on:** May 18, 2007, 09:19:17 am »

I see....I have a few 3/8ths fuses around the house, and I couldn't tell if they were fast or slow blow fuses. They have the winding filament in them, but it didnt' look as thick as the ones I pulled from the pinball. It wouldn't hurt anything to try them, would it? I mean, if I put a fast blow one in there by accident, it wouldn't do any damage, would it?

ChadTower · « **Reply #71 on:** May 18, 2007, 09:22:36 am »

Putting in a fast blow wouldn't hurt anything but it might pop immediately just because of initial current draw. That's why there is a slow blow in there.

2PacMan · « **Reply #72 on:** May 18, 2007, 10:15:12 am »

Hmm, the guide doesn't really talk much about that fuse. Would a bad driver board cause that fuse to blow? Or do you think it's something else causing the fuse to blow, which in turn, is causing the DMD not to work?

ChadTower · « **Reply #73 on:** May 18, 2007, 10:23:43 am »

A bad driver would pop the fuse. The only other thing I can think of is some type of short in that circuit, which would take some learning and trial and error on your part to find. Maybe a bad fuse clip but on a 3/8A holder I doubt that. Is the fuse holder showing any sign of heat damage or poor contact?

2PacMan · « **Reply #74 on:** May 18, 2007, 10:45:50 am »

well, it does say in marvin's guide that that fuse holder can go bad. It's one of those screw in vertical type fuse holders. It looks fine to me, and you'd think if it wasn't making contact, it wouldn't blow the fuse. Just nothing would happen and the fuse would still be good because nothing would be making contact. Am I right on this assumption?

ChadTower · « **Reply #75 on:** May 18, 2007, 10:55:50 am »

You're right on a completely bad fuse holder. An intermittent one can cause some voltage spikes/drops and a burned one ups resistance, and thus heat, and can cause easier failure of a fuse. Check the backside of the holder, maybe reflow the solder connections, and see if anything looks burned. Odds are if it doesn't look burned or bent the fuse holder is fine.

2PacMan · « **Reply #76 on:** May 18, 2007, 11:07:58 am »

I think for now, i'll assume the fuse holder is good and concentrate on the driver board, which most likely is the culprit.

Do you know of any way to test exactly which component of the high voltage section of the board is bad? Is it best just to have someone do the whole kit? If i just need one component replaced, I might be able to wing it myself.

ChadTower · « **Reply #77 on:** May 18, 2007, 12:46:00 pm »

If you're going to do any of them do all of them. If you just replace what is dead right now you have no idea of knowing which of those other components are just about to die or are just out of spec actually causing the dead ones to have died. Many things you can just locate the dead component and replace, an HV circuit you're better off doing the whole thing.

If you really want to find just the dead parts, you'll have to learn how to test each type of component in the circuit. Unless I'm mistaken there are no complex chips in there so they should all be testable with your DMM in appropriate modes.

2PacMan · « **Reply #78 on:** May 30, 2007, 09:05:18 am »

Update.......Well, I finally got a tech out to my place to look at the pin. He tested the dot matrix driver board and sure enough, i was missing the high voltage part just like we discussed earlier. He started testing the board and found a diode that wasn't reading correctly. He said he's going to install my entire driver board rebuild kit for me, so now that's where i'm at on this. He said he should have it done in a few days. I'm hoping that's all that is wrong with it. Would one bad diode cause the high voltage portion to go bad? It was kind of off to the left of the high voltage area, in a row of like 7 or 8 other diodes.

SirPeale · « **Reply #79 on:** May 30, 2007, 09:14:12 am »

Diodes channel current in a particular direction, so if it goes bad it's reasonable that bad things will happen.

2PacMan · « **Reply #80 on:** May 30, 2007, 10:12:27 am »

Oh good, well hopefully this will fix the problem then. I'm guessing once the old display went bad, people continued to play it, which them blew the diode.

ChadTower · « **Reply #81 on:** May 30, 2007, 11:54:56 am »

Cause would depend on what happened to the diode. Was it burned open or was it reading fully in both directions (junction overflow)?

2PacMan · « **Reply #82 on:** May 30, 2007, 03:01:04 pm »

well, the actual appearance of the diode was fine, it looked normal. The tech just said it wasn't producing the right reading on his DMM. There was no burning or anything even near that area.

ChadTower · « **Reply #83 on:** May 30, 2007, 05:23:01 pm »

Could be 2PacMan just doesn't know enough yet to have listened for the key words given... or maybe the guy just didn't say.

2PacMan · « **Reply #84 on:** June 03, 2007, 05:31:03 pm »

Great news! The display works now!! He installed the high voltage replacement kit along with replacing the one bad diode, and now i'm back in action. Thanks for all your help and suggestions on getting me back on track.

One other question, now that the DMD is up, i was going through the self test, and I have alot of burned out bulbs. The manual says I need bulb #44. Well, i ran out, but i noticed some of the bulbs in the game were #47, which I have plenty of extras of. Are #44 and #47 bulbs interchangeable, or should I stick to strictly the #44 bulbs like the manual says?

ChadTower · « **Reply #85 on:** June 03, 2007, 05:33:59 pm »

47 is slightly dimmer but uses a lot less amps. Accordingly it produces a lot less heat. Light level is perfectly sufficient for home use and most pinball hobbyists swap in 47s as any 44s burn out or even just change them all when they shop the pin. They are interchangeable. 47s are less likely to warp a plastic from heat.

2PacMan · « **Reply #86 on:** June 04, 2007, 08:21:20 am »

Thanks for the info Chadtower, i just put in an order for a bunch of #47 bulbs. They look just as bright as the 44's to me, and i'm all for creating less heat.


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