New Product: KeyWiz-QD™ - GroovyGameGear

[RandyT]

And now for something completely different  .  The KeyWiz-QD™ comes with the same great High-Performance core features of the KeyWiz product line. Added to this is the convenience and versatility of DB-25 connectors. Designed to accept both Male and Female DB-25 plugs, the KeyWiz-QD will allow use of a standard M/F "Straight-Through" DB-25 cable that is split in half, providing "keyed" connections for 1 and 2 player controls. Four additional on-board screw-termninals provide convenient access to 5v, Shazaaam! and Ground connections.

Each players controls are separated to their own connector, with numerous important Admin functions duplicated on each.  5v, Shazaaam! and multiple grounds are also available on each connector.

Click on the thumbnail below to download the full-size PDF pinout diagram.



Price: $32.95 and it is available now.


Thanks for looking, and if anyone has any questions, feel free to ask

RandyT

[Grasshopper]

It's a nice idea and long overdue. But I'm a bit puzzled why one of the connectors is male and the other female. I understand the whole cutting a M/F cable in half thing. But why not cut in half a M/M or a F/F cable?

[RandyT]

It's a nice idea and long overdue. But I'm a bit puzzled why one of the connectors is male and the other female. I understand the whole cutting a M/F cable in half thing. But why not cut in half a M/M or a F/F cable?

So there is bulit-in "keying" that prevents one from connecting a cable to the wrong connector. 

RandyT

[Havok]

Too late for me, I have an oldskool KeyWiz, but I love it!

 

So, when are you going to carry universal (can be mounted to any standard or U360 joystick) Tron joystick handles, with built in trigger and thumb buttons?

 

[ChadTower]

What am I missing?  Is this to make it easier to swap panels?

[Grasshopper]

What am I missing?  Is this to make it easier to swap panels?

Yes.

It also makes it easier to build converter boxes.

[ChadTower]

Very nice.   

[Kaytrim]

Are the Max and Eco versions still going to be avaliable?

[RandyT]

Are the Max and Eco versions still going to be avaliable?

Yes.  The MAX version will remain unchanged, but this new board design will spawn a couple of other styles that we'll be offering soon.  For instance, a solder ECO that will be much easier to solder than the current Eco.  Even though the larger board will increase the Eco price by about a dollar, it will be worth ten times that in ease of use.  The Eco's will also become repairable as CPU sockets will be standard with this style.

The future of the smaller Eco board is unknown at this time, but the new Eco design is likely to supersede them unless there are objections from our OEMs.

RandyT

[bleargh]

WOW.

That's cool, and makes so much sense when you think of it... cut the 25-pin cable in half and get to use both halves!

I'd thought about doing something like this a few years back when I was going to build a modular CP, but gave up when I got bogged down in thinking about how many DB9s/DB25s I'd have to hack up in order to get all the various panel modules plugged in, and how I'd have to wire all of the plugs up to the IPAC4 I was working with at the time.

Having it all on-board just makes life so much simpler.  And cheaper too.... I can generally find old 25-pin cables around here far cheaper than I can plain old wire.

Cool!

[ahofle]

Nice.  Even if you don't have serial cables lying around, they are dirt cheap at monoprice:
monoprice serial cable link

[Kaytrim]

Are the Max and Eco versions still going to be avaliable?

Yes.  The MAX version will remain unchanged, but this new board design will spawn a couple of other styles that we'll be offering soon.  For instance, a solder ECO that will be much easier to solder than the current Eco.  Even though the larger board will increase the Eco price by about a dollar, it will be worth ten times that in ease of use.  The Eco's will also become repairable as CPU sockets will be standard with this style.

The future of the smaller Eco board is unknown at this time, but the new Eco design is likely to supersede them unless there are objections from our OEMs.

RandyT

Sounds like you are going to offer a GPWiz QD as well.    I mean it only stands to reason.   You use the same base board for both the KeyWiz and GPWiz for the Max and Eco version of those encoders. 

To be honest though I don't see the need for all the duplication of contacts on the player one and two sides.  I don't see the need for 8 action buttons though there may be some games that I am not aware of.  After a quick check I see a total of only about 18 contacts that are absolutely necessary for each player. However you have put much more time in thought on this then I certainly have.  For example DB25 cables (printer) are much more easier to obtain that any other of this type of connector.

TTFN
Kaytrim

[Buddabing]

To be honest though I don't see the need for all the duplication of contacts on the player one and two sides.  I don't see the need for 8 action buttons though there may be some games that I am not aware of. 

Rotatable or modular panels.

[bfauska]

That looks like a great product.  I did something similar with my GPwiz based desktop CPs.  I added a DB15 connector so that I could run one panel daisy chained to the other.  With this product half the work would have been done for me.  It works great with a pair of controllers hooked up this way.  So that's another potential use for it.

[KenToad]

The modular panels on my bartop are swappable via two DB25 connectors that I have wired to two GPWiz49's.  Definitely another great idea, Randy. 

[Fozzy The Bear]

No questions.... Just WOW!! This is perfect for plugging and unplugging multiple panels with ease. 

Just exactly what I needed for my next project. Cheers Randy!!!

Order coming your way very soon!

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)

[Kremmit]

To be honest though I don't see the need for all the duplication of contacts on the player one and two sides.  I don't see the need for 8 action buttons though there may be some games that I am not aware of. 

But if the board can do it, and the connector can do it, then why not do it?

Also, other, non-MAME emulators for more modern console gaming systems use more buttons than MAME does.

[Extreme8]

Yup,
Another "why didn't I think of that" from RandyT.

Great job.

[loadman]

Nice   

[Tiger-Heli]

Cool Idea.

Typo on the Input Sheet - Player two second entry - KeyWiz Uploader (TM) equivalent should be "B" not "8".

(Might be others - I didn't fully check it, yet . . .)

Also, you might consider adding ribbon cable and DB25 IDC connectors (or M/F RS-232 cables) to the site to go along with this.

Thanks again for all your hard work for the community.

[RandyT]

Typo on the Input Sheet - Player two second entry - KeyWiz Uploader (TM) equivalent should be "B" not "8".

Fixed....Thanks for catching this.

Also, you might consider adding ribbon cable and DB25 IDC connectors (or M/F RS-232 cables) to the site to go along with this.

I'm looking into some sort of wiring product to go along with this.  Not sure what form it's going to take at the moment though.

RandyT

[psychotech]

Groovy 

..but, as this was not available a month ago...



 

[DarkBubble]

And to think, I was just looking at a DB-25 cable the other day, thinking, "WTF am I gonna do with that?"

[markrvp]

Great idea!

Randy - if you can find a bunch of DB25 cables that all have the SAME COLOR WIRES inside and can sell the cables with a diagram showing which color wire goes to which pin it would be a huge bonus and time saver.  The most time-consuming part of using cables like that is having to use a multimeter to figure out which wire is connected to each pin.

I wish this solution had been around a couple of years ago when I built my multiple-panel machine.  I may be re-wiring it soon.

[patrickl]

Randy - if you can find a bunch of DB25 cables that all have the SAME COLOR WIRES inside and can sell the cables with a diagram showing which color wire goes to which pin it would be a huge bonus and time saver. 

Guess you mean DIFFERENT color wires?

[Tiger-Heli]

Randy - if you can find a bunch of DB25 cables that all have the SAME COLOR WIRES inside and can sell the cables with a diagram showing which color wire goes to which pin it would be a huge bonus and time saver. 

Guess you mean DIFFERENT color wires?

What he means is the different color wires are the SAME from cable to cable.  I.e. Pin 1 is always the RED wire, Pin 2 is always the Blue wire, Pin 3 is always orange.

[markrvp]

Randy - if you can find a bunch of DB25 cables that all have the SAME COLOR WIRES inside and can sell the cables with a diagram showing which color wire goes to which pin it would be a huge bonus and time saver.

Guess you mean DIFFERENT color wires?

What he means is the different color wires are the SAME from cable to cable.  I.e. Pin 1 is always the RED wire, Pin 2 is always the Blue wire, Pin 3 is always orange.

Exactly.

[patrickl]

ah duh 

[knave]

Randy, any chance your USB products will incorporate the DB25 connectors?

Also while I'm at it...could this come in a USB "flavor"?

Would a usb/ps2 adaptor work?

[Tiger-Heli]

Randy, any chance your USB products will incorporate the DB25 connectors?

See Reply #11 by KayTrim above.

Also while I'm at it...could this come in a USB "flavor"?
Would a usb/ps2 adaptor work?

Doubtful and Doubtful - see my comments here: http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=35840.0

[Kaytrim]

Also while I'm at it...could this come in a USB "flavor"?

Would a usb/ps2 adaptor work?

The answer is No and No.  Randy has confirmed it that the KeyWiz doesn't work with an USB adapter.  He also has his reasons as to why he won't produce a KeyWiz USB model.  Something to do with performance, this is why he created the GPWiz.  If you want USB then go with the GPWiz otherwise go with the KeyWiz and a PS/2 connection.  I have used both and have had no issues with either model.

TTFN
Kaytrim

See Reply #11 by KayTrim above.

btw Tiger-Heli, the T is not capitalized.   Kaytrim

[RandyT]

The board is "USB Ready" for the GP-Wiz models.  I'll need to do a little firmware tweaking to get the inputs where I want them, but a DB-25 version of the GP-Wiz models will be available.

RandyT

[Tiger-Heli]

btw Tiger-Heli, the T is not capitalized.   Kaytrim

My bad - sorry!

[fixedpigs]

which one is 'better'...?

the keywiz max or the keywiz qd...

the max has the switchable keyboard interface...the qd doesn't...is the switchable keyboard interface really that important...?

obviously the qd would be easier to install...plus it's two bucks cheaper...

which one(if either) works better with a ledwiz...?

thanks for your thoughts...!

[Tiger-Heli]

which one is 'better'...?
the keywiz max or the keywiz qd...

The QD is 'better' if you think you might end up with swappable CP's somewhere down the road.  Otherwise it really doesn't matter.

the max has the switchable keyboard interface...the qd doesn't...is the switchable keyboard interface really that important...?

Not to me, get a USB or wireless keyboard, or hot-swap in a PS/2 one when you need one.  Some people really like this, but I wouldn't find an active pass-thru that useful, and with the KeyWiz Max being switched, even less so.

obviously the qd would be easier to install...plus it's two bucks cheaper...

Perhaps, not sure about that.

which one(if either) works better with a ledwiz...?

Don't think it matters!

[Kaytrim]

which one is 'better'...?

the keywiz max or the keywiz qd...

the max has the switchable keyboard interface...the qd doesn't...is the switchable keyboard interface really that important...?

Randy will have to answer this one as to why the QD doesn't have a switchable KB.  Looking at the QD image there is no input for a keyboard.  From the looks of it you will have to use a USB keyboard if you require one in your setup if you use the QD.

which one(if either) works better with a ledwiz...?

There should be no difference here.  The LEDWiz has a separate connection to the computer (USB) and has no conflict because it is output not input.  If you need additional inputs you can get a GPWiz to work along side the KeyWiz.

TTFN
Kaytrim

[SavannahLion]

....hot-swap in a PS/2 one when you need one. 

Most of the time it's probably better to avoid hot swapping PS/2 devices. I have a few motherboards lying around that are really fussy about hot-swapping on the PS/2 port.

Strange, given the original intent of the port, you would think hot swapping would've been incorporated. Oh well. 

[Tiger-Heli]

Probably should have added the standard "Hot-swapping PS/2" disclaimer, although it's NEVER given me any issues.

[Kaytrim]

I've had computers lock up when trying to 'hot swap' a ps/2 port device.  That is why I always power down the PC prior to changing out a ps/2 keyboard or mouse.

Kaytrim

[Havok]

Yeah - I've seen computers lock up when "hot-swapping" a ps/2 port. Doesn't stop me from still doing it on work computers - usually it's fine...

 

However, for my home setup, I went with GP-Wiz encoders. USB is definitely the safer hot-swap option...

[diverdown]

[
[/quote]

I'm looking into some sort of wiring product to go along with this.  Not sure what form it's going to take at the moment though.

RandyT
[/quote]

Just 1 word


Bloody Fantastic

[Tiger-Heli]

To clarify, I have had problems hot-swapping PS/2 mice, not keyboards.

[Guaranos]

Yeah - I've seen computers lock up when "hot-swapping" a ps/2 port. Does stop me from still doing it on work computers - usually it's fine...

In some cases it can do worse than cause a lock up.  It's rare, but it can cause you to short out your keyboard or mouse port.  I've only seen that once or twice in many years working with PC hardware.

As for the DB-25 M/F cables, I just threw out a big stack of them a couple of weeks ago (along with M/M and F/F cables) since I no longer own any devices that use them.  Now that I think of it, my computer that I use daily doesn't even have a parallel port on it...

[RandyT]

In some cases it can do worse than cause a lock up.  It's rare, but it can cause you to short out your keyboard or mouse port.  I've only seen that once or twice in many years working with PC hardware.

I've never seen one "lock up" when the keyboard is swapped out, but anything is possible I suppose.  Hot swapping the PS/2 mouse port can be more troublesome.

Also, the port does not "short out".  In the old days, keyboards were big, and power hungry.  Lots of discrete hardware, mechanical switches and so on.  The port wasn't originally designed for hot swapping, so on very old motherboards (we're talking 486 / Pentium 1 era and before) they had only a small fuse to protect the rest of the system from a short circuit in the keyboard.  The ancient keyboards also had nothing that would ramp the power to prevent a surge from popping the fuse, and that is what caused the problem.  BTW, those old motherboards weren't dead, they just didn't have 5v going to the PS/2 port anymore.  A quick splice of the 5v supply into a short PS/2 extension cable and you were back in business.

Fast forward to today.  The power and data lines on  modern motherboards often go to the very same places as those connected to the USB ports.  Quite a while back, more devices started using the PS/2 port for an external power tap, so more robust power handling was built into the circuitry.  Self resetting breakers have become inexpensive and have pretty much taken the place of the fuses.  Modern keyboards (and the KeyWiz) draw very little power compared to the old beasties, and have components to rapidly ramp up the power rather than creating surges when they are plugged into the ports.

We have sold thousands of PS/2 Keywiz's and to date have had zero reports of someone damaging their system through a hot-swap.  I'm not saying it can't happen, but the numbers indicate that you might have a better chance of being struck by lightning

RandyT

[Guaranos]

Also, the port does not "short out".  In the old days, keyboards were big, and power hungry.  Lots of discrete hardware, mechanical switches and so on.  The port wasn't originally designed for hot swapping, so on very old motherboards (we're talking 486 / Pentium 1 era and before) they had only a small fuse to protect the rest of the system from a short circuit in the keyboard.  The ancient keyboards also had nothing that would ramp the power to prevent a surge from popping the fuse, and that is what caused the problem.  BTW, those old motherboards weren't dead, they just didn't have 5v going to the PS/2 port anymore.  A quick splice of the 5v supply into a short PS/2 extension cable and you were back in business.

I know that it was usually the fuse popping, and not technically the port shorting out, but you can also fry the microcontroller that controls the port itself.  I was avoiding making the distinction to save some people's eyes from glazing over, since most people, even some in a technically proficient group like this one, will probably just consider the port "dead."

From the wikipedia article on PS/2 connectors:

"PS/2 ports are designed to connect the digital I/O lines of the microcontroller in the external device directly to the digital lines of the microcontroller on the motherboard. They are not designed to be hot swappable. Hot swapping PS/2 devices usually does not cause damage due to the fact that more modern microcontrollers tend to have more robust I/O lines built into them which are harder to damage; however, hot swapping can still potentially cause damage. Shorting one pin to another on a PS/2 port can easily kill one or both microcontrollers."

The full article:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PS/2_connector

[RandyT]

I know that it was usually the fuse popping, and not technically the port shorting out, but you can also fry the microcontroller that controls the port itself.  I was avoiding making the distinction to save some people's eyes from glazing over, since most people, even some in a technically proficient group like this one, will probably just consider the port "dead."

From the wikipedia article on PS/2 connectors:

"PS/2 ports are designed to connect the digital I/O lines of the microcontroller in the external device directly to the digital lines of the microcontroller on the motherboard. They are not designed to be hot swappable. Hot swapping PS/2 devices usually does not cause damage due to the fact that more modern microcontrollers tend to have more robust I/O lines built into them which are harder to damage; however, hot swapping can still potentially cause damage. Shorting one pin to another on a PS/2 port can easily kill one or both microcontrollers."

The full article:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PS/2_connector

But as with most wiki entries, it's not entirely correct and it doesn't tell the whole story.  For instance, shorting one pin to another is impossible unless you physically damage the connector.  And, unless it's the wrong two pins, namely GROUND and +5v, you still have little to worry about except the broken connector.  It also states that "modern microcontrollers have more robust I/O lines that can handle this, yet somehow they can still be damaged ?!?  How?  Who wrote this and what is their background? 

It also goes on to give an example of swapping out a USB mouse for a PS/2 mouse and then the PS/2 mouse won't work.  This is related to an OS issue and has nothing to do with the physical properties of the PS/2 port.  If the driver wasn't started at boot time, the PS/2 mouse won't have a chance of working.  But PS/2 mice and PS/2 keyboard devices are different birds anyway.

I am probably one of the few individuals who can say that they have hot-swapped the PS/2 port on the same system many thousands of times.  Every KeyWiz interface is tested, by myself,  100% for functionality before it is shipped, on my trusty old emachines P2.  I never turn the machine off to do this and it's still functioning as happily as when it was built so many years ago.  With this number of practical, real world hot-swaps, "luck" doesn't enter into the picture.

The nice thing about wikis is that you can fix them (and I did)

RandyT

[Tiger-Heli]

I'm probably only in the hundreds of swap times, but never a problem here either.

[patrickl]

I did blow a PS/2 port once.

[bleargh]

Can't say I've ever blown a PS/2 port, but I've seen several Dell servers that'd lock up entirely if you hotplugged the keyboard.  I, uh, even have a few of them...

[RandyT]

I did blow a PS/2 port once.

How?  (and I'll refrain from the obvious puns.... )

[shorthair]

I've never had trouble with USB devices...I take that back...in some cases, some ports don't seem to like something like an external hard drive...but they always recognise the device in some way. PS/2's, though, I thought it was standard that they just wouldn't recognise if you plugged them in after boot. That's always been my experience. No troubles, either.

[RandyT]

PS/2's, though, I thought it was standard that they just wouldn't recognise if you plugged them in after boot. That's always been my experience. No troubles, either.

Plugging in after boot, and hot-swapping are two different issues.  If you plug in after boot, especially with post 98SE OS's, there's a good chance that the system will not have loaded any drivers to support the devices.  However, if a standard 101-key keyboard driver was loaded as a result of the keyboard being plugged in at boot time, then swapping another standard keyboard device after boot will have a much higher likelihood of success.

I have to say here, however, that this subject really doesn't apply to the product that is the topic of this thread.  This unit swaps controls via the DB-25 connections, not the PS/2 port.  There is no pass-through on this unit as it was designed to work alongside of a system with a USB keyboard attached, or in the case of a dedicated cabinet, by remote management.  USB keyboards are very cheap nowadays and a better solution than bogging down and adding expense to your input controller with a pass-through.

But if you want to hot swap it, and your system is PII class or better, then give it a shot.  If it works on your system, then great.  If not, then leave it attached, build your panel around the DB-25 connectors and use a USB keyboard.

RandyT

[Zebidee]

I once fried an ipac hot-swapping from PS2, and my brother once fried his mainboard doing it with a keyboard.

You can do it a thousand times with no problem.  It that 1001-th time that is the killer.

[RandyT]

I once fried an ipac hot-swapping from PS2.....

Are you sure it died from the swap and not a static discharge to one of the pins in the connector when you picked it up?  That's a much more likely cause in that scenario.  The lines  going to the chip are the exact same ones used in USB mode, and it's only a different part of the firmware that gets executed.

You can do it a thousand times with no problem.  It that 1001-th time that is the killer.

Yeah, kind of like driving to work, walking down a public street at night, or playing contact sports.

FWIW, I have popped a keyboard fuse in my past as well.  But it was a P1 class Cyrix system, a big steel IBM clicky keyboard, it was a long time ago, and it pretty much did it on the second time I tried it.  I also fixed it in about 15 minutes using the method described above.

This discussion is nearing being tantamount to people not going swimming in a pond, because their grandfather did when he was 4 and contracted polio from it.  The early implementations were specced at providing up to 100ma through the port, so you can bet that the fuse they used was just a fraction over that (no hot-plug, so no significant overrating to account for current surges on the 5v line)  The last PS/2 port fuse I looked at, which was on my "bottom of the barrel", 6+ year old emachines motherboard, was a self-resetting type rated at 3amps!  That's 30 times more current than the port was originally specified to handle, and it doesn't fry.  It acts like a thermal switch that opens when it gets hot and closes automatically when it cools off.  The only real challenge is knowing just when they started building them better, so some caution may still be in order on old motherboards.

And just for fun, I have to share a moment of my own stupidity.  I have a system in front of me that I develop on that has some cheap, side panel USB ports.  I had the plug turned around the wrong way (I was working blind from the other side of the machine) and I attempted to put it in the socket. It didn't go, but it allowed enough of it to go in to short the connections.  I now have two dead USB connections on that machine. Theoretically, that probably shouldn't have happened, but individual implementations will vary and therefore always allow for the occasional anomaly.

RandyT

[Zebidee]

I once fried an ipac hot-swapping from PS2.....

Are you sure it died from the swap and not a static discharge to one of the pins in the connector when you picked it up? 

Well, only [insert deity of your choice] knows for sure.     But I am careful with my equipment, so you shouldn't be quick to jump to that conclusion.  I noticed that my IPAC was dead right after I had hot-swapped it from PS2.  I had hotswapped the same IPAC on USB a zillion times before (well, maybe not that many,  but a lot).  So go figure. 

Regarding your discussion about mainboards, it was about 10 years ago that my bro blew his hotswapping a PS2 keyboard.  So it was an older type.

I don't like to talk in certainties, but I thnk the prudent person should turn off the PC before plugging in a PS2 again.  I mean, you can theorise about it if you like but I look at it like this:  If if barks, has fur, and enjoys playing fetch with balls then it is fair to assume that it is a dog.

But it could still turn out to be a seal ....