4 way joystick a necessity?

[Hawk Daddy]

I was just wanting to know how well the 8 way joy sticks work on the classic games like pacman, and galaga, dig dug, and donkey kong?

Hawk

[Organic Jerk]

Personally, I play all those games "fine" with my 8-way...

It gets the job done, but in no way feels authentic.  You would have to make your decision with this in mind.

I've seen some users here say that the lack of physical movement constraints hinders their game... also something to consider..

Ultimately it will do the job, but what you decide to do will have to come down to how accurate you want your 4-way experience to be...

[Fozzy The Bear]

Ultimately it will do the job, but what you decide to do will have to come down to how accurate you want your 4-way experience to be...

NO!! The problem is that ultimately it won't do the job. It's not about physical feeling of the stick either.

You need a 4 way for classics because their original design did not accommodate an 8 way.   This means that when you play something like PacMan and you hit a diagonal direction instead of left right up or down, the original software gets confused and can lock up the position of your player character until you release the stick and push one single 4 way direction. Thus ruining your gameplay. So yes a 4 way is an essential. Or at least a 4way 8way switchable.

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)

[Organic Jerk]

NO!! The problem is that ultimately it won't do the job. It's not about physical feeling of the stick either.

So yes a 4 way is an essential. Or at least a 4way 8way switchable.

Well there you go... Shut me up real quick..

[TOK]

I skipped adding a 4 way because I really don't like the appearance of 3 sticks on a control panel.
I think it comes down to your game choices. Although I do play Donkey Kong and Dig Dug, I primarily play 8 way games. Once you're comfortable with the sticks, they won't hinder your play much.

Stick choice is important, too. The first sticks I used were Ultimarc T-Stick +'s. Although they were 4/8 way switchable, the 4 way mode didn't really feel like a 4 way stick to me. I watched a lot of people struggle with them to play Pac Man (why does EVERY person playing a MAME cab for the first time ask for Pac Man?). Since I also didn't care much for the feel of them, I swapped them out for Happ Competitions. They are much easier to play 4 way games with, even though it still requires you to get used to them a bit.

[NoOne=NBA=]

Some 4-way games are more picky than others.
If you give Donkey Kong any 8-way information during a game, Mario just stops wherever he is until you get back on a cardinal direction.
Other games seem to not mind it as much, and will either continue in the direction they were going, or switch directions when the diagonal is hit, depending on how they were programmed to respond to accidental 8-way info.

My current pick as a 4-way is the T-stik Plus, after you do the RandyT mod to it.
It doesn't have the huge travel of most of the other sticks (Wico, Pac-stick, Happ, etc...), and doesn't have the cloverleaf restrictor of the Nintendo and Seimitsu.
The short throw is probably why TOK doesn't think it feels like a 4-way, but I actually prefer the shorter throw because it feels more responsive to me.
Without the RandyT mod on it, the spring tension is a killer after a few games though.

[arzoo]

If you did a side-by-side comparison playing with a 4-way and an 8-way, you'd see a significant difference with some games. That being said, most mamers seem fine with using an 8-way.

[Dexter]

Install a 4-way. They take up very little real estate on your panel and you can mount it central for equal comfort for left and right handers. I use a ms. pac man/galaga reunion 4 way and its brilliant.....

http://www.happcontrols.com/joysticks/5060841125r.htm

[Kook]

There is a significant difference in some games. I really like my Ultrastik 360's. Using Mala as my frontend, a profile is loaded into each joystick automatically each time a game starts. So, for Mortal Kombat, the sticks behave like 8-ways, for Pac Man they behave like 4-ways, for QBert they behave like rotated 4-ways, etc. They can even behave as analog instead of digital. Quite remarkable. The downside is that the "physical" feel never changes... you don't feel the restricted movement of a 4-way or notchiness in the corners like an 8-way stick. Despite that, these sticks are a good one-size-fits-all solution if that's what you need.

[RayB]

How about playing 8-way games using a 4-way?   

[Zeppo]

How would you wire up a 4-way joystick if you already have two 8-ways on your cp?

Do you do it in parallel with the player 1 stick?
I have a jamma wiring harness and a j-pac.

Thanks,

[ChadTower]

I agree, there are truly critical games, like the Pac games, that do not function well with an 8 way.  Pac gets confused when you hit a diagonal and sits in corners, or goes the wrong way, or has a seizure.  It has a substantial effect on the game.

For a general purpose MAME cab, I consider a 4 way a strict requirement.  The minimum I would ever do is a 4/8 way switchable from above stick.  If I had to choose between 4 or 8 way dedicateds I would do away with the 8 way myself.

[Dexter]

The feel of some of those 4/8 way top switchables are horrible though. Can't beat the dedicated 4 way if you have the space.

[MaximRecoil]

It depends on how accurate you are with your joystick movements. A dedicated 4-way would always be preferable for the games that were originally intended to be used with them, but they are not a necessity for playing and enjoying the games, especially if you only play them casually, rather than at an expert level. Consider that when these games appear on commercial discs for consoles, like the Namco Museum discs, they are expected to be used with an 8-way D-pad obviously, since I don't know of any consoles that come with dedicated 4-ways.

[leapinlew]

Consider that when these games appear on commercial discs for consoles, like the Namco Museum discs, they are expected to be used with an 8-way D-pad obviously, since I don't know of any consoles that come with dedicated 4-ways.

Your assuming they are using a direct port. I'd wager $500 they recompiled the game. One thing they probably took into account was how the game responded from inputs it would never normally receive. I bet they set it to ignore the diagonals, otherwise Ms. Pacman would be impossible. When she hits a diagonal she quits moving until the stick is centered.

If your going to play 4 way games, you'll probably want a 4 way stick. The difference is pretty amazing to me. You can configure your 8 way to ignore diagonal inputs for specific games. It'll improve some games, like frogger, but to me it made the stick feel unresponsive.

Besides, how boring would Galaga be if you couldn't move up and down?   

[juggle50]

In my opinion, if you really love to play the classics (even if your not an expert) you have to get a dedicated 4 way stick.

[MaximRecoil]

Consider that when these games appear on commercial discs for consoles, like the Namco Museum discs, they are expected to be used with an 8-way D-pad obviously, since I don't know of any consoles that come with dedicated 4-ways.

Your assuming they are using a direct port. I'd wager $500 they recompiled the game. One thing they probably took into account was how the game responded from inputs it would never normally receive. I bet they set it to ignore the diagonals, otherwise Ms. Pacman would be impossible. When she hits a diagonal she quits moving until the stick is centered.

Namco Classics = emulated, not ported. I don't know of any classic game compilation disc for a console that is ported rather than emulated. And Ms. Pac-Man is no where near "impossible" with an 8-way input. I have no problems with it in MAME with an 8-way gamepad. I can't get it to do anything unusual, stopping or otherwise, by intentionally hitting the diagnols either.

[ChadTower]

Your assuming they are using a direct port. I'd wager $500 they recompiled the game. One thing they probably took into account was how the game responded from inputs it would never normally receive. I bet they set it to ignore the diagonals, otherwise Ms. Pacman would be impossible. When she hits a diagonal she quits moving until the stick is centered.

It acts the exact same on just about every console.  When you go diagonal, Pac goes wonky.  Some console versions are better than others about it but I've played them all and found none that really do it the way we'd want.  I remember the Genesis version of Ms Pac Man being pretty bad about it, and if you play it on a Genesis 3 (the Gen 3 has bugs in the firmware translating controller actions) Ms Pac Man is just about unplayable.

[Kaytrim]

IMHO the best solution is to use one of the electronic multi directional joysticks.  the ultrastick 360 or a 49-way joystick with the GPWiz49.  These will give you all the flexibility for 8-way, 4-way, 2-way and types of joystick input.  This can be done automatically via software so there is no need for the user to know if they are playing a 4-way or 8-way game.  I have the 49-way sticks and I have no problem switching from 8-way to 4-way and back.  There will be a new 49-way joystick coming from GGG in the near future that will be even more flexible.

TTFN
kaytrim

[lettuce]

So there's no software prog that disable's the diagonal on 8-way stick so it acts as a 4-way for 4-way games??

[Kaytrim]

So there's no software prog that disable's the diagonal on 8-way stick so it acts as a 4-way for 4-way games??

That would be close to impossible.  This is because of the fact the diagonals are combinations of the cardinals.  To move up and to the right both the up and right microswitches are pressed.  A true 4-way joystick uses some kind of mechanical restrictor to prevent the stick from pressing both switches at the same time.  The problem with the clasic games like pac-man and DK if two directional inputs active at the same time the program gets confused and the player character will freeze.

[leapinlew]

And Ms. Pac-Man is no where near "impossible" with an 8-way input.

It's near impossible for me... I roll the joystick and thats when the ol'gal acts up.

[Crowquill]

It acts the exact same on just about every console.  When you go diagonal, Pac goes wonky.  Some console versions are better than others about it but I've played them all and found none that really do it the way we'd want.  I remember the Genesis version of Ms Pac Man being pretty bad about it, and if you play it on a Genesis 3 (the Gen 3 has bugs in the firmware translating controller actions) Ms Pac Man is just about unplayable.
[/quote]

The Genesis version IS a port. I don't remember having any problems with diagonals and I played that game a LOT even when it was new (1994 or so). One thing most people don't know about genesis: the 6-button pads aren't compatible with Ms Pac (and a few other games) unless you hold the MODE button down when powering on the system. It is unplayable if you don't. That might be your problem with the Genesis 3 since it came with 6-button pads.

My MAME cab has 8-way wico leaf sticks and I would say that both DK and the Pacs are playable, but a 4-way would definitely be preferable. The biggest problems I have are Mario locking up on ladders (usually as a barrel is coming). I've kind of trained myself to not push the diagonals when playing classic games, but for some reason I sometimes roll the stick when coming off ladders.

[MaximRecoil]

I don't know what the character freezing thing everyone is talking about, is all about. You must have to activate the two switches for diagnol at exactly the same moment. I can't get the Pac-Man or Ms. Pac-Man sprite to freeze or do anything else "wonky" in MAME by intentionally hitting diagnols on my 8-way gamepad as it is cruising along -- I just tried.

[juggle50]

I think I've heard Mario freezes on the ladder. 

[CheffoJeffo]

How about playing 8-way games using a 4-way?   

I've got a Wico 4-Way that I tweaked the switches on so that you can *just* get the diagonals to engage. Originally I put it in a controller that I used for playing classics on my notebook. Then I put it in my Vertical MAME cab.

At the end of the day, however, I don't really play many games that require an 8-way on that machine, so the effort was mostly wasted.

Cheers.

[MaximRecoil]

I think I've heard Mario freezes on the ladder. 

Yeah, I've seen that happen. I think the worst case of that was with the port of DK that came with the Colecovision. 

[leapinlew]

I think I've heard Mario freezes on the ladder. 

Yeah, I've seen that happen. I think the worst case of that was with the port of DK that came with the Colecovision. 

I think he's just scared. See, their is a 800lb gorilla throwing flaming barrels at him. His reward? Some redhead in a pink dress from the 1800's. She probably looked better the night before at the bar after a few shots. 

[ChadTower]

The Genesis version IS a port. I don't remember having any problems with diagonals and I played that game a LOT even when it was new (1994 or so). One thing most people don't know about genesis: the 6-button pads aren't compatible with Ms Pac (and a few other games) unless you hold the MODE button down when powering on the system. It is unplayable if you don't. That might be your problem with the Genesis 3 since it came with 6-button pads.

I didn't say it's not a port, I said it doesn't address the 8/4 way issue well.  I tried it on all three versions of the console and with 3 button, 6 button, and a joystick.  I did it very thoroughly because my wife is a huge fan of Ms Pac and I was trying to get the best version regardless of console (yes, I'm unusual, I have nearly every rev of every console released in the US and many foreign).

This issue actually doesn't matter to a lot of people as the games do play with the 8 way.  A novice player, or one who isn't picky, isn't going to care.  A person who is picky about the right hardware for the right games (I am over the top anal about that) could easily find themselves heavily annoyed every time they go to make a quick turn and Ms Pac decides to sit in a corner and die instead.

[MaximRecoil]

The OP also mentioned "Galaga". It is a non-issue in regard to playability with that game or any other 2-way game -- 2-way, 4-way, 8-way -- doesn't matter unless perfectly replicating the original feel is your goal, in which case you'll want a stick right off a Galaga machine.

[leapinlew]

The OP also mentioned "Galaga". It is a non-issue in regard to playability with that game or any other 2-way game -- 2-way, 4-way, 8-way -- doesn't matter unless perfectly replicating the original feel is your goal, in which case you'll want a stick right off a Galaga machine.

I suppose you could fix it easily enough, but a 8 way such as a Happs Super has too much throw for Galaga for my liking. I agree a reunion stick or an original galaga.

[bfauska]

I think a lot of the issue comes down to the specific stick.  I have the omni-sticks and I can't reliably hit the 4 standard directions w/o a little bit of diagonal very often.  The omni's have a very short throw and therefor it takes very little play in either of the side directions when trying to go up to hit a diagonal, and likewise when trying to go to the side.  The sticks I have that came with an NBA Jam CP I picked up (I think they are supers or comps?) have a fairly long throw (at least compared to the omni's) I think I would have more luck on a 4 way game with these, but with my omni's I HAVE to switch over to 4-way to make most 4-way games tolerable.

I think:
Long throw 8 way = kind of playable 4-way games
Short throw 8 way = way too easy to hit the diagonals, bad 4-way game play.