RAM Controls - Star Wars Yoke

[saint]

The point here though is that no one has been ripped off that we've been made aware of. Has anyone asked for a refund that hasn't gotten one?

[FrizzleFried]

The point here though is that no one has been ripped off that we've been made aware of. Has anyone asked for a refund that hasn't gotten one?

I may be wrong as I can't find it on the new PP,  but I think someone mentioned having difficulty getting a refund on the old PP. 

That said,  my last post wasn't in reference to him ripping anyone off,  but rather to point out that a company/individual that has done great work in the past doesn't always come through in the present/future.   

[Lutus]

That said,  my last post wasn't in reference to him ripping anyone off,  but rather to point out that a company/individual that has done great work in the past doesn't always come through in the present/future.  

That is true Frizzle but in this particular case we are talking about a guy who does this on the side, not his business model...

AND, he is known for an EXTREME attention to detail.  These small runs of parts can be difficult to work with vendors/manufacturers on because they will not be making a huge profit off of such a small run of parts.

If he finished the yoke up quickly, with some shoddy parts, someone out there would say, "I would have been willing to wait for the part to be done right".

It is all in what you truly want in the end.  And patience is a virtue.



Just playing devil's advocate to the quote above.  I have no vested interest in the matter.   

I am sure that once the yoke is in hand, everyone will be pleased with the product they recieve.

[miles2912]

I have no problem with a vendor paying attention to detail. He can even spend years developing a product.  However ...

I just think it shows poor taste to do it on someone else's dime.  I will go you one further.  If someone can't raise the capital to fund a project why am I going to fund it?  If they are using my money and are under absolutely no time constraints there is zero incentive to bring a product.  Now if their money is at stake, they are very motivated to recoup their investment.

[Katana Man]

With all due respect...but SLIKSUCK also produced very high quality products in the past...so that's not really any kind of gauge as to what the guy will be doing (or not doing) in the future. 

Hehe, excellent point. Being able to produce a high quality product is only a portion of running a good business. There are so many options that he could do, and should have done. It should not take this long to find a powder coating solution for his handles.  As an act of professional courteousy, he should have at least offered the option to send the yoke as is, even with handles unfinished. It sounds like the guy has obsessive compulsive disorder which is really killing his business.

[TheShanMan]

I have no problem with a vendor paying attention to detail. He can even spend years developing a product.  However ...

I just think it shows poor taste to do it on someone else's dime.  I will go you one further.  If someone can't raise the capital to fund a project why am I going to fund it?  If they are using my money and are under absolutely no time constraints there is zero incentive to bring a product.  Now if their money is at stake, they are very motivated to recoup their investment.

He's not really doing it on someone else's dime. He offered to give everyone their money back and some chose to wait rather than get their money back.

He is a stand up guy, even if he hasn't come through on this project. He has given away lots of arcade related stuff including free shipping. He gets the benefit of the doubt in my book. Though I can easily understand people's frustration.

[FrizzleFried]

This conversation in 6/2006 - benefit of the doubt instantly given

This conversation in 6/2007 - benefit of the doubt readily given

This conversation in 6/2008 - benefit of the doubt cautiously given

This conversation in 6/2009 - I ain't givin' anyone any benefit of no doubt.

[ark_ader]

This conversation in 6/2006 - benefit of the doubt instantly given

This conversation in 6/2007 - benefit of the doubt readily given

This conversation in 6/2008 - benefit of the doubt cautiously given

This conversation in 6/2009 - I ain't givin' anyone any benefit of no doubt.

Wow has it been that long of a wait?

The point here though is that no one has been ripped off that we've been made aware of. Has anyone asked for a refund that hasn't gotten one?

Patience is something we all run out of.  Happy optimism can dwindle too. I mean we live in a society where vaporware is common place.  We all know of Microsoft right?  They can push BS to an exact science.  A product like a starwars yoke would be difficult to manufacture if it was a new product.  But we have 1000's of examples out in the world that can be easily copied.

I'm so surprised that the folks at Happ haven't taken the project on board themselves and created a yoke that would be a direct replacement.  I mean its what those guys do for a living.

I want a SW yoke from Dave too, but I want to see something tangible before I part with any cash.  some of these folks have already, and its not fair to wait this long.  I mean how long does it take to construct a SW yoke anyway?  10 days?  a week?  I think we all need some closure on this.   

[Level42]

The problem is that every-time he says they are "very soon" ready to ship....and then it's dead- silence again.

Dave sent me some parts for my yoke for free too. Amazing after how I criticized him. The parts are excellent (although I have not installed them yet). IF it ever gets finished it will be absolutely stunning quality. But sometimes you _have_ to compromise a bit to get things going.  And DON'T promise things that you CAN'T deliver. It's the worst mistake people make in business and in personal live as well.

[SavannahLion]

I'm so surprised that the folks at Happ haven't taken the project on board themselves and created a yoke that would be a direct replacement.  I mean its what those guys do for a living.

To be fair. I haven't seen a vector cabinet of any type on location since the early 90's, much less a vector SW cabinet. Even as much as most of us like the vector cabinets, the interest generated by the MAME community is still a niche market. Not exactly within Happ's general interest... for now.

It doesn't help that CRT's are on the way out so the opportunity to obtain a working vector or convert a raster is dwindling as well. I don't care what anyone says, LCD resolutions are going to be a lot higher than they are now before I'll ever feel the same delight when playing the same game on a vector.

[Aceldamor]

I haven't been on the boards in a long time in a posting capacity, but this caught my attention.

Since starting school my cab has gathered dust in the corner of my home, among many other things piled on it.  This was a fantastic thing coming back when I was an active member that far back.

After reading the post, I saw that as of march, the problem with the powdercoating had been corrected and the yolks were all but done. I see since then he has had some other issues as well, like with his server or the e-commerce piece. I personally would like to see this come out, and I think it would be a great addition to what appears to be a phenomenal line-up he's got. (SW Yoke, Major Havok roller, Lunar Lander Thruster). I personally would LOVE LOVE LOVE to see the Assault Joystick repro's come out as well.

The thing to remember that the arcade industry, is essentially dead. That is a sad statement, as I grew up in the arcade hay day. As sad as it is, it is true.  Any of what are now considered "classic" games are a novelty. I would say 80% of the demand for things like this are for hobby enthusiasts with another 10% for collectors, and the last 10% for the industry it's self.

I live close to the largest arcade in Phoenix for classic video games. I spoke to the arcade manager, and he mentioned for things like Tron, Gorf, Star Wars, he has 7,8,9 other sticks in his stock room from old games that he can use as replacements. He had 4 Star Wars yolks up there as spares.

I guess my point is I've been watching this all day, and as much as I would agree with most points made on this thread, I think the only legitimate complaint for anyone to have would be the people who pre-paid for the device and have yet to see delivery, but on the same token, I see they were offered a refund opportunity as well.

All we can do is wait it out, check the site for updates, and hope that he comes in here to clear the air.

[CheffoJeffo]

I guess my point is I've been watching this all day, and as much as I would agree with most points made on this thread, I think the only legitimate complaint for anyone to have would be the people who pre-paid for the device and have yet to see delivery, but on the same token, I see they were offered a refund opportunity as well.

 
I took some time today to look back at the community and the folks who have provided services over the years. It is interesting how people who have done really cool stuff end up with big delays and drop out because out the stress of trying to combine a hobby business and real life, particularly when people are waiting for particular products. Oscar, Braze and Clay are three that come to my mind immediately because I was wanting some of those cool things from them.

We aren't the most patient group of people in the world and, contrary to what we may think, we're not generating a heck of a lot of revenue for these folks, so I don't feel too bad for us when they move on. Dave has apologized and offered a refund to those who pre-ordered, so all he can really be accused of at this point is not satisfying the unreasonable demands of a bunch of unreasonable folks.

If there was real money to be made doing this, somebody would have paid a company in the PRC and we would have readily available SW yokes out the shielded exhaust ports.

 

PS - for those who feel cheated by Dave, just imagine what the folks who preordered Big Bang Bar went through. This hobby sometimes requires acts of faith.

[TPB]

It really is a shame, because he gave away a ton of stuff shipped for free to the community as a sign of goodwill a few months ago.

Free Springs.

Level42, did you take up this offer, and stock up on spare springs for your yoke ?

[Katana Man]

This conversation in 6/2006 - benefit of the doubt instantly given

This conversation in 6/2007 - benefit of the doubt readily given

This conversation in 6/2008 - benefit of the doubt cautiously given

This conversation in 6/2009 - I ain't givin' anyone any benefit of no doubt.

Wow has it been that long of a wait?

It's actually been longer. This project started in 2004.

[MameMaster!]

There was a blog update on the Yoke site too mid-May that details the trouble is still with the powder coating - http://www.ram-controls.com/blog-sw.html

....look closer....that was May 2007. A year ago. 

[bvicarious]

It doesn't help that CRT's are on the way out so the opportunity to obtain a working vector or convert a raster is dwindling as well. I don't care what anyone says, LCD resolutions are going to be a lot higher than they are now before I'll ever feel the same delight when playing the same game on a vector.

As far as that goes, I wonder how well an OLED monitor would reproduce vector games. They have the brightness, contrast ratio and black levels to do it, the only thing else they need are size and resolution. That, and not cost $10,000.

[Aceldamor]

There was a blog update on the Yoke site too mid-May that details the trouble is still with the powder coating - http://www.ram-controls.com/blog-sw.html

....look closer....that was May 2007. A year ago. 

Really? Wow...gratz me not paying attention.   Aceldamor = 

[Ummon]

It sounds like the guy has obsessive compulsive disorder which is really killing his business.

Indeed. In case anyone missed my post on his PM to me a couple months ago, you might look back a couple/few weeks. I remember he had a kid come about around Christmas or something, as well as internal issues with the business, and all could have some part or still have some part in things. Or he could just be dead. It's happened before.

[TPB]

no one has been ripped off

Indeed they haven't.  What's to be achieved by this thread ?

Even if they end up losing their money, there's no new issues.  While it would be unfortunate, it wouldn't be a case of being "ripped off", as the pre-order folks made it clear about 6 months back, that they knew this venture had risk.

Their investment went into the R&D of this product, with their knowledge and agreement, with no guarantees it could be returned.

They reaffirmed their willingness to accept that risk, and to continue waiting, however long it takes.

Nothing's changed.

[TPB]

The problem is that every-time he says they are "very soon" ready to ship....and then it's dead- silence again.

Dave sent me some parts for my yoke for free too. Amazing after how I criticized him. The parts are excellent (although I have not installed them yet). IF it ever gets finished it will be absolutely stunning quality. But sometimes you _have_ to compromise a bit to get things going.  And DON'T promise things that you CAN'T deliver. It's the worst mistake people make in business and in personal live as well.

I missed that earlier.  Good to hear !  And credit to Dave.

Your SW cab is well stocked with spares, to live through the next few generations.

[Level42]

Well it's just the rubber bumpers and fire buttons, but exactly what my yoke needs. A very nice gesture from Dave.  Somehow I have a feeling this thing will be available in the future. He just shouldn't claim it's almost ready for shipping when it's not.

The only other spare part I have is a working PCB set. But that sure is NICE to have, especialy because it cost me about €12,- 

I _am_ hunting an Amplifone 25" yoke though....hope it works out I am planning on reverse engineering it. And have it produced in China. 100 bucks a piece, anyone wants to pre-order ?
 

[Level42]

Amplifone Yoke is on it's way

[Ummon]

Well, despite this dilemma, check out this recent auction price.

[wbassett]

I saw that auction and cried!

I just had to dump almost $900 in my truck to repair the balljoints and a host of front end issues.  Then we ran out of heating oil and our hot water is from a boiler, not an electric water heater, $428 for 100 gallons!  So there was no way I could bid on that puppy.  Looks like it was in pretty good shape too.

[Timstuff]

I'm starting to wonder how hard it might be to hack a SW yoke out of a steering wheel... I mean, a steering wheel is essentially the same as a flight yoke, except that it has one less mechanism (the axle for the grips). All that's really needed, in theory, is a box with an axle going through it that has a gear in the middle, which is connected to another gear that attaches to a pot. Then, you could mount some Happ trigger grips onto the axle, and put the whole rig in place of the wheel on a steering wheel.

The real hamper though is and always seems to be the parts themselves. I've seen people do SW yokes on the cheap before, but the real trick is to get a metal box that looks like it would survive an arcade, rather than just slapping together a few pieces of wood and covering them with cardboard and contact paper.

[ChadTower]

It has been touched on here but it should be mentioned that Dave did give out a lot of free stuff recently.  Free, shipped on his dime, and it was good obscure stuff.  He sent me quite a few hard to get ICs common on vector PCBs and pinball driver boards.  I offered to send him a few bucks for shipping or beer and he wouldn't hear about it. 

Now, that's not the yokes, but the amount of good stuff he gave away on his own dime should do his reputation more good than it seems to have done.

[Ummon]

Now, that's not the yokes, but the amount of good stuff he gave away on his own dime should do his reputation more good than it seems to have done.

I don't think that part of the topic is much of an issue anymore. He'll either magically come out with it or not.


@Timstuff: I think wood will do just fine, and one could even do a cooler, more stream-lined version. It's the handles and their connections that are hard to duplicate. Alternatives I've seen just don't look as cool. However, following the above theme, getting some new-fangled grips could look snappy. As well, some have recommended modding a Road Blasters yoke. However, it seems people would rather have a high-quality piece made by someone else, and likely some if not many are wanting quality retrofits.

[Timstuff]

I remember reading great things about the Gamecab yokes, which were not exact replicas of the original but were still very functional and good looking. Unfortunately, they're no longer being sold, as is the case with many fine arcade control products.

The happ trigger grips (which gamecab used) look like they'd actually be more comfortable and precise feeling than the original yoke's, and on top of that they look cooler (IMHO).





And then there's Joey's yoke (which also uses the Happ grips), and it looks pretty sick too. I'm not super keen on the visible screws everywhere, but really like how everything is coated in black.


To me, "authenticness" is not a super high priority when it comes to yokes. As long as it functions the same way as the original (on the user end, at least), looks good, and can in theory be used as a replacement in original SW cabs, it meets my personal criteria. And like you suggested, there's nothing wrong with even going a step beyond, and trying to improve on the original. One thing that I haven't seen on any of the newer yokes though, is a surface that can be used to apply the original SW artwork to. The RAM Controls yoke would have offered just that, so if you wanted authenticity, that would have been the best option.

[Ummon]

Yeah, I know that one. Nice design in general. I wonder about the axis of spin on the handles. Sort of the inverse of the originals, I'm curious how they...handle. In any case, I decided I was tired of waiting.

[Havok]

Those gamecab yokes look great. Shame he isn't making them anymore. It seems to me that there would be some kind of market for these. Perhaps GGG or Ultimarc could put one out? I'm thinking the Yoke Wiz and the Ulti-Yoke?

 

[wbassett]

http://www.westcontrols.com/files/products_controls2.php?id=CCYOKE&cat=C6YO&type=FY&fr=C

Well there is always that for a mere $624

If this guy was more reasonable with his price I might even be 'game' for one, but a controller for around the total price I have intro my cab?  Pretty hard to justify that.

[Ummon]

http://www.westcontrols.com/files/products_controls2.php?id=CCYOKE&cat=C6YO&type=FY&fr=C

Well there is always that for a mere $624

If this guy was more reasonable with his price I might even be 'game' for one, but a controller for around the total price I have intro my cab?  Pretty hard to justify that.

Not to mention he does the 'without an adapter' thing, and charges that extra. It would seem WestControls is selling these as CPs, which they are, but especially as they're using old stock (or maybe NOS) yokes, essentially he's charging a hogload for building a custom box for it.

[Timstuff]

He's charging for both the box he built, and the "effort cost" of finding the yoke. If he was just selling the NOS yokes, they'd already be gone, UNLESS he was selling them for $600.

It's simple really: if demand outweighs supplies, then find a way to bring down demand. In this case, he accomplishes that through charging an arm and a leg and requiring you to buy an extra that you may not necessarily want.

[S0L]

Just a quick update, I contacted David on the yoke and it's very much still in progress. Hopefully he won't mind me posting this, but he had following to say:

---

The Star Wars yoke project is alive and well.  Instead of making updates like I should be, I've been spending my time working on the project.  I've been having a bit of trouble with the final assembly of the controller which has necessitated remanf. of the handles.  After nothing but failure after failure of the powdercoat on those handles, it finally came to my attention that the alloy I was using was reacting poorly with the powdercoat itself.  I've never heard of such a thing in the past, so I wasn't aware of the conflict until it came time to put it all together.  I've been devoting much of my free time to getting this project completed once and for all.  I cannot promise a specific time frame because that has come back to bite me more than once. 

If you can keep the faith just a little bit longer, I should have a completed product ready relatively soon.

---

So it's very much still in the making!

Needless to say I'm happy to keep the faith - and still very much looking forward to it.

Just thought I'd share this info with the rest of the Dirty Dozen and general forum at large

---
S0L
---

[Aceldamor]

Good news to be sure!

I hope he does come through, I would like him to finish these so he can work on those Assault handles!

[Ummon]

He's charging for both the box he built, and the "effort cost" of finding the yoke. If he was just selling the NOS yokes, they'd already be gone, UNLESS he was selling them for $600.

It's simple really: if demand outweighs supplies, then find a way to bring down demand. In this case, he accomplishes that through charging an arm and a leg and requiring you to buy an extra that you may not necessarily want.

That sounds ---smurfin--- ridiculous. Why offer a product at all then? Anyways, what demand? Given no yokes have gone for more than $200 in the last six months or more, that (strange) explanation is out the window. I think the dude's just appearing pretentious.


SOL: well, good. I'm curious, was it a PM exchange?

[S0L]

Didn't do it via PM, I emailed direct via the RAM Controls sales address. I've had a few PM chats with Dave, though I don't think he's logged into BYOAC for a while.

I actually got a reply pretty much straight away - though to my works email address. I didn't see it till the following day since I'd gone home after sending it!

---
S0L
---

[wbassett]

Just out of curiosity, has anyone build a SW yoke based on these plans?
http://arcadecontrols.com/hosted/yoke/

I'd probably opt for the Happ handles like Timstuff mentioned over what this guy used, but mainly I think the interest would be how does this work and feel?

My 6 year old grandson and I just fired up Star Wars and played it with a Saitek ST290Pro and the game is definitely functional, but obviously doesn't have the same feel as I remember and have such fond memories of.

I'm kinda split on this in a sense...

If I was building a totally dedicated Star Wars cab, then yes I would want it to look exactly like the arcade.  I'm going the modular panel approach, but it would still be nice to have the same look as well as the exact same feel the original yoke had, but functionality is also more important to me.

In a strange way I kinda like this one-

It strikes me that if the Xwing was real, this is more like what the flight yoke would look like, a bit thrown together and utilitarian over looks, I mean after all, the rebels had to use whatever they could get their hands on right?  Kinda like us

One thing about using an analog stick, at least the Siatek ST290 is it seems to be a bit 'too' responsive, so it's way too easy to whip past your target.

West Controls looks really nice, but honestly, I'm not paying that kind of money.  I may actually make a yoke from the plans at the link I put at the beginning until David gets his finished and I know what his final price is going to be.  Even though David is going to have a top quality product when he's finished, I hope it's not too expensive.  I tried going to his website and it seems to be down.  Did he change the url?

Anyone know what his estimated selling price will be when he's done?

[Paul Olson]

I lucked out and got a gamecab yoke a while back for about $100 bucks on ebay. Still don't have it mounted yet, but I am going to try to get it done before next weekend (My niece and nephew will be visiting for a week, so I actually need to get this stuff finished  ). It looks like it should function pretty close to the original. Until David has his available, I would keep looking on ebay. The prices were crazy for a while, but the last few I have seen went for around $150. I have heard that David has parts for them available now, so even a beat up one may be worth it if the price is right.

Off topic: If anyone here has a gamecab yoke, I am looking for a wiring diagram for it. I would like to avoid taking it completely apart to find out which wires go where. So if you have one, can you post it for me please? I also have the gameport cable for it and I won't be using it, so if anyone needs it let me know.

Thanks,
Paul

[Ummon]

I lucked out and got a gamecab yoke a while back for about $100 bucks on ebay. Still don't have it mounted yet, but I am going to try to get it done before next weekend (My niece and nephew will be visiting for a week, so I actually need to get this stuff finished  ). It looks like it should function pretty close to the original. Until David has his available, I would keep looking on ebay. The prices were crazy for a while, but the last few I have seen went for around $150. I have heard that David has parts for them available now, so even a beat up one may be worth it if the price is right.

Off topic: If anyone here has a gamecab yoke, I am looking for a wiring diagram for it. I would like to avoid taking it completely apart to find out which wires go where. So if you have one, can you post it for me please? I also have the gameport cable for it and I won't be using it, so if anyone needs it let me know.

Thanks,
Paul

Wire it to what?