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Author Topic: Do you still need an I-PAC for shifting if you have 2x Ultimarc Ultrastiks?  (Read 1605 times)

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Anubis_au

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Hi

Another question during the planning stage of my project (the more you plan, the better the result, right?...)

I am planning on making my CP a (simple) two player setup, with each player having either six or seven play buttons. The pause button will also be the shifter, and I plan on making the top row of play buttons have all the control functionality (in shifted mode). Below is the link to that discussion thread:

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=64962.0

At the time I did that thread, my plan was to use two Happ competition joysticks (which I used to have in my can conversion). Using Happs obviously meant using an I-PAC (or similar encoder, I don't want to get into that discussion...).

But now I've been reading about Andy's Ultrastik 360 and have started thinking about these sticks, given the mapping advantages they offer over other joysticks.

My question is this: since with an Ultrastik, you can have 8 player buttons connected through it, I can easily have 6 or 7 player buttons connected as planned, and on one of the joysticks, have the pause button connected to the eighth player button. But, if I go this route, can that pause button be a shifter?

Or, in order to get shifting functionality, do you need an encoder regardless, and its just bad luck that the joystick could have handled the six/seven player buttons?

What I'm getting at is: can you do away with the I-PAC and its shifting ability if you go with two Ultrastiks, or do you still need an I-PAC if you want to shift keys?

If anyone or Andy knows the answer to this, it would help. I'm truly lost on this one reading all the forums...


Kaytrim

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Lets see if I understand things a bit here.  You want a CP with nothing but action buttons for player one and player two.  What about coin and start?  Whether you use a coin door or not you will still need an input for game credits.  What about quit game?  If you have 7 action buttons per player that leaves you with only 1 extra button each.

Now it is possible to have a MAME action be a combination of two buttons or button plus a joystick direction.  However with the inputs that you have there you are very limited on combos.  Not only that but mistakes could happen during game play.  You and/or your guests could get confused and trigger the game quit when trying to coin up or start.

Personally I would like to see a few more inputs on these sticks so an additional encoder card is not needed.  However I would strongly suggest that you get an encoder card and lay out a few buttons for other necessary actions.  Credit, Start, Quit Game & Pause in my opinion are necessary buttons to have on any MAME cab.

just my $.02
TTFN :cheers:
Kaytrim

Anubis_au

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Perhaps I wasn't as clear as I thought...

I will still have the typical control functionality (coin, start, select game / quit game) but I am trying to do away with having dedicated buttons for this. Instead, I want my normal player buttons to double as these admin buttons.

Now, as far as I understand, with a keyboard encoder:
You can program the encoder so that pause is also the shifter, and then program (for example) Player 2 Button 6 (shifted) to send the esc character to the pc. MAME, in turn, receives the esc key signal, and appropriately quits the game.

What I am asking is: can you program MAME itself, so that Quit Game, instead of being esc, is (for example) Player 1 Button 8 PLUS Player 2 Button 6. So, if MAME gets these two signals together, it will quit...

Because if you can so program MAME, then I can accomplish everything I want without needing an encoder:

P1 Button 8 = pause
P1 Button 8 + P1 Button 4 = coin insert
P1 Button 8 + P1 Button 5 = Player 1 Start
P1 Button 8 + P1 Button 6 = Select Game

etc

Kaytrim

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Perhaps I wasn't as clear as I thought...

I will still have the typical control functionality (coin, start, select game / quit game) but I am trying to do away with having dedicated buttons for this. Instead, I want my normal player buttons to double as these admin buttons.

Now, as far as I understand, with a keyboard encoder:
You can program the encoder so that pause is also the shifter, and then program (for example) Player 2 Button 6 (shifted) to send the esc character to the pc. MAME, in turn, receives the esc key signal, and appropriately quits the game.

What I am asking is: can you program MAME itself, so that Quit Game, instead of being esc, is (for example) Player 1 Button 8 PLUS Player 2 Button 6. So, if MAME gets these two signals together, it will quit...

Because if you can so program MAME, then I can accomplish everything I want without needing an encoder:

P1 Button 8 = pause
P1 Button 8 + P1 Button 4 = coin insert
P1 Button 8 + P1 Button 5 = Player 1 Start
P1 Button 8 + P1 Button 6 = Select Game

etc

Short answer, "Yes" (read my last post middle paragraph, first sentence)

Detailed answer, Not sure how to do this by editing the new XML config files.  However I do know how to do it another way.  While running a game in MAME pause the game (p) then press the tab key.  This menu system is where you will map your buttons and joysticks.  Choose the action you want to map and press the enter key.  Next press both buttons at the same time.  This programs an 'AND' condition.  If you want the same action to be triggered by one or another button then press only one button.  After the buttonpress is registered press the enter key again then the second button you want mapped.  This programs an 'OR' condition.

I would recommend that you have the pause button be a combo as well.  Because you might get a pause/unpause action if the button is pressed too long.

TTFN :cheers:
Kaytrim

Anubis_au

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Perhaps I wasn't as clear as I thought...

I will still have the typical control functionality (coin, start, select game / quit game) but I am trying to do away with having dedicated buttons for this. Instead, I want my normal player buttons to double as these admin buttons.

Now, as far as I understand, with a keyboard encoder:
You can program the encoder so that pause is also the shifter, and then program (for example) Player 2 Button 6 (shifted) to send the esc character to the pc. MAME, in turn, receives the esc key signal, and appropriately quits the game.

What I am asking is: can you program MAME itself, so that Quit Game, instead of being esc, is (for example) Player 1 Button 8 PLUS Player 2 Button 6. So, if MAME gets these two signals together, it will quit...

Because if you can so program MAME, then I can accomplish everything I want without needing an encoder:

P1 Button 8 = pause
P1 Button 8 + P1 Button 4 = coin insert
P1 Button 8 + P1 Button 5 = Player 1 Start
P1 Button 8 + P1 Button 6 = Select Game

etc

Short answer, "Yes" (read my last post middle paragraph, first sentence)

Choose the action you want to map and press the enter key.  Next press both buttons at the same time.  This programs an 'AND' condition. 

OK, I tried it, and it works, kinda... I thought I'd share my findings with all in case others have the same question...

It works, you can select two inputs at once and MAME sets it up that both must be pressed in order to achieve the result. (I made o+p = quit MAME, instead of esc, to test it).

The problem / issue is, because the function is an AND state, it makes no difference in what order you press the keys. As long as both keys get pressed, the action will occur. So, it is not exactly like a shifted function in terms of safety of accidental action.

With a shifter you must be more deliberate in your button pressing. By doing away without an encoder, you can still achieve a result like what we discussed above, but at a greater risk of accidentally quitting a game, for example.

Although this could again, be minimised / mitigated by making the "shifter" in an out of the way place...

Tiger-Heli

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While running a game in MAME pause the game (p) then press the tab key.  This menu system is where you will map your buttons and joysticks. 
Generally, it is better to NOT pause the game when re-assigning inputs.  IMS, older versions of MAME could not tell between left and right modifier (Alt, Shift, Ctrl) keys if the game was paused.  This may have been resolved in later versions of MAME.
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Tiger-Heli

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The problem / issue is, because the function is an AND state, it makes no difference in what order you press the keys. As long as both keys get pressed, the action will occur. So, it is not exactly like a shifted function in terms of safety of accidental action.
Here are some suggestions for what you are trying to do:

P1B8 (Pause) + P2B6 = Exit will give you problems.  If you are playing Street Fighter, it will seem weird to guests to say "I want to pause for a minute, don't do a high-punch right now".  (Not likely to be a problem if P2 wants to Pause the game because they are unlikely to be pressing Pause at the same instant that they are doing a high-punch themselves).  Better option would be P1B8 plus P1B7 to pause, since you are unlikely to use 7 buttons in any game.

However, you still will have problems with your idea - take coin inputs - What you are going to find - P2 wants to insert a coin, presses P1B8 - MAME pauses - then P2B4, coin is inserted, then has to press P1B8 again to unpause.  Other way - P2 presses P2B4, (might fire a shot or something unintended, although for coin or start that obviously isn't a problem), then Presses Pause and the coin is inserted, but when releasing Pause, P2B4 is still down, so mame may fire a shot.  (This constant pausing/unpausing will drive you and guests nuts).

Two workarounds, but they get away from standard shift functionality but will likely be better for you.

Option 1 - P1B8 is unmapped in MAME, however, you have a button on your panel mapped to P1B8.  This serves as the SHIFT BUTTON only.  Pressing P1B8 plus P1B4 (set up in MAME) is P1 Start, P1B8 plus P1B5 is Coin1, P1B8 plus P1B6 is Pause, P1B8 plus P2B4 is P2 Start, P1B8 plus P2B5 is Coin2, P1B8 plus P2B6 is Exit Game.  The drawback to this is you have to remember a dedicated combo to pause the game (but you could label the CP to make this more clear).

Option 2 - Same as above, but if you want a dedicated pause key, P2B8 is Pause (mapped in MAME) and P1B8 is shift as above, but this requires one additional button on your panel.

Drawback to this method in general are these combos only work in MAME, so if you want to add Nebula or FCE Ultra or any other emulator or game to your cabinet, you are likely out of luck . . .

Other drawback to this - speaking from experience - I play a lot of 2-player shuum'ups (Air Gallet, Zero Blade) for example.  In a fast and furious 2-player game, sometimes I lose track that my sprite has died and I need to insert more credits and press start to keep playing.  It is much more convenient to have dedicated buttons to reach up and mash than having to remember "Okay need to add a coin, so Shift-P1B5, then P1B4, then release Shift and play), although if that were my only option for all games, I suppose I would get used to it.

Alternate suggestion - I am not a big fan of keyboard or gamepad hacks, but if (in your case) all you need one for is Start, Coin, and Pause and Escape and Select buttons, that would be viable, if you have or know someone with the soldering skills.
It's not what you take when you leave this world behind you, it's what you leave behind you when you go. - R. Travis.
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Tiger-Heli

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Also - just FYI, this should be on the main forum, not hardware reviews.  I only found it b/c I was looking at recent unread topics.
It's not what you take when you leave this world behind you, it's what you leave behind you when you go. - R. Travis.
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Anubis_au

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Thanks for all of that, Tiger-Heli.

I still think I am ok to go with admin buttons being shifted player buttons... most / all games where button mashing happens don't use more than three buttons. At most, users will have to get used to holding down the pause / shifter in order to get what they want. I figure a few accidental pauses of games is ok in the long run.

As I wrote before, who adds extra credits in the middle of a SF2 game? No-one... all credit adding happens before a game starts.

And yes, I think in the end I am going to go with an I-PAC and a shifter, as it seems to my mind to be the safer option. Even though, strictly speaking, I wouldn't need it with two Ultrastiks...

And sorry this is not in the correct section.. but it did start with a hardware issue / question...

Tiger-Heli

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I still think I am ok to go with admin buttons being shifted player buttons... most / all games where button mashing happens don't use more than three buttons. At most, users will have to get used to holding down the pause / shifter in order to get what they want. I figure a few accidental pauses of games is ok in the long run.

Admin buttons as shifted player buttons is personal preference.  Coin and Start buttons as Shifted buttons off of a Pause Input (non-I-PAC) I think will drive you nuts, but the good thing is you can try it, re-map MAME (as I suggested above), and at worst case just have to add another button to your panel.

Quote
As I wrote before, who adds extra credits in the middle of a SF2 game? No-one... all credit adding happens before a game starts.
Depends on the games you play.  In 2-player Shoot-em-ups, it is very common to want to add a credit and press start for one player while the other player is still shooting the baddie.  It the game pauses and unpauses during this it will bug you, but you'll find that out.

Quote
And yes, I think in the end I am going to go with an I-PAC and a shifter, as it seems to my mind to be the safer option. Even though, strictly speaking, I wouldn't need it with two Ultrastiks...

Not sure I agree with that.  You came up with a creative and functional way to work around the Ultrastiks and avoid an interface.  As long as you don't have the shift function on top of pause it should work fine.  Personally, I don't like shifted inputs and prefer dedicated buttons, but if you want shifted inputs, I think either solution I posted above will work fine without the need for an I-PAC.  (Again, though, the good thing is you can try it either way and add the I-PAC if you see the need down the line, but I doubt you will).

Quote
And sorry this is not in the correct section.. but it did start with a hardware issue / question...
I'm not a board admin, but this is Hardware Reviews.  To me, that means "I bought product X and I liked this and disliked this other thing about it."  Hardware issues/questions belong on the main forum.  But that's just MHO.
It's not what you take when you leave this world behind you, it's what you leave behind you when you go. - R. Travis.
When all is said and done, generally much more is SAID than DONE.

Kaytrim

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And sorry this is not in the correct section.. but it did start with a hardware issue / question...
I'm not a board admin, but this is Hardware Reviews.  To me, that means "I bought product X and I liked this and disliked this other thing about it."  Hardware issues/questions belong on the main forum.  But that's just MHO.

There is a suggestion in the Forum Discussion board about adding another board for these type of posts.
Here is the link http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=64229.0

TTFN  :cheers:
Kaytrim