A n00b with some questions :)

[mallclerks]

Hello All!

As ya can see I am new here, so let me give a little bit of background.  My real name is Stan, I am 20 years old, Live in good ol Illinois.  I currently own a Final Fight cabinet that I bought when I was 15. Last year I finally got around to gutting it out, cleaning the entire cab, putting it back together, some new paint/new sideart, and it looks fairly nice now!  Since then I have been interested in building my own cabinet (I understand the addiction some of you obviously have as I have yet to build a cab and am already getting it  )

So with that I have spent the past few weeks reading up plenty, reading tons on this site, forums, along with plenty of links.  I have gotten a fairly good idea of all the basics, but still having some trouble with some of the more advanced stuff which I am working on still.

So I am hoping a few people could help me with some of these questions 

At first I was thinking about going with the Ipac2 since it would handle all my basic needs, but I would need to have an Opti-pac as well for the track ball.  Is this the best route to go, or is going with the Mini-pack the best route to take?


Question 1:

I would like to have the following configuration, since it seems to be common and the best configuration to have

1st player button
coin 1 button
6 buttons for player 1
Joystick player 1

2nd player button
coin button 2
6 buttons for player 2
Joystick player 2

Trackball

Joystick 3
2 buttons for joystick 3

That adds up to 30 inputs, but from how I *think* I understood it is that you can wire joystick 3 to joystick 1, so that you save 4 inputs , hence it truly would only be 26 inputs used up.  Am I correct in this understanding?


Question 2

For the Trackball, I would need to buy the following to get it all to work correctly I believe, am I correct in thinking this?:

Opti-PAC Interface
Trackball 2 1/4in With Opti-PAC Cable
Trackball Mounting Plate



Question 3

Is the $19 Wiring kit from Ultimarc have all the wiring I would need for the arcade controls?  Would I need more, or does it come with more then enough?




Thats about it for now.  I am sorry if this is all posted somewhere already, if so please give me a link if ya know it.  I have tried to make my own 'bookmark list' of everything, along with reading as much as possible, and I think I am begining to have an information overload.  I am hoping to get all my parts ordered in the next few days assuming I can decide on everything I want, since I really wanna get started on this thing  

[leapinlew]

Hello All!

As ya can see I am new here, so let me give a little bit of background.  My real name is Stan, I am 20 years old, Live in good ol Illinois.  I currently own a Final Fight cabinet that I bought when I was 15. Last year I finally got around to gutting it out, cleaning the entire cab, putting it back together, some new paint/new sideart, and it looks fairly nice now!  Since then I have been interested in building my own cabinet (I understand the addiction some of you obviously have as I have yet to build a cab and am already getting it  )

So with that I have spent the past few weeks reading up plenty, reading tons on this site, forums, along with plenty of links.  I have gotten a fairly good idea of all the basics, but still having some trouble with some of the more advanced stuff which I am working on still.

So I am hoping a few people could help me with some of these questions 

At first I was thinking about going with the Ipac2 since it would handle all my basic needs, but I would need to have an Opti-pac as well for the track ball.  Is this the best route to go, or is going with the Mini-pack the best route to take?


Question 1:

I would like to have the following configuration, since it seems to be common and the best configuration to have

1st player button
coin 1 button
6 buttons for player 1
Joystick player 1

2nd player button
coin button 2
6 buttons for player 2
Joystick player 2

Trackball

Joystick 3
2 buttons for joystick 3

That adds up to 30 inputs, but from how I *think* I understood it is that you can wire joystick 3 to joystick 1, so that you save 4 inputs , hence it truly would only be 26 inputs used up.  Am I correct in this understanding?


Question 2

For the Trackball, I would need to buy the following to get it all to work correctly I believe, am I correct in thinking this?:

Opti-PAC Interface
Trackball 2 1/4in With Opti-PAC Cable
Trackball Mounting Plate



Question 3

Is the $19 Wiring kit from Ultimarc have all the wiring I would need for the arcade controls?  Would I need more, or does it come with more then enough?




Thats about it for now.  I am sorry if this is all posted somewhere already, if so please give me a link if ya know it.  I have tried to make my own 'bookmark list' of everything, along with reading as much as possible, and I think I am begining to have an information overload.  I am hoping to get all my parts ordered in the next few days assuming I can decide on everything I want, since I really wanna get started on this thing  

Is this the final fight cab with the rounded marquee that uses standard incandescent lights? I believe Frizzle has one of those setup in his horizontal cab - I'll see if I can find it.

As for the trackball, I bought one that was a USB interface and plugged it directly into the computer.

[leapinlew]

Here it is:
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=63423.msg632794#msg632794

Where in Illinois are you?

[Chris G]

Building on what lew said, a word of caution from my experience... figure out which trackball you want before deciding on the interface.  I bought a mini-pac, but later decided to buy a USB trackball... rather poor planning.

 
Chris

[shardian]

I'm assuming your joystick 3 is a dedicated 4-way joystick - in that case, you can wire it to the same inputs as joystick 1.

Make sure you get a true dedicated 4-way for that stick, such as a Ms. Pac reunion stick. A super in 4-way mode is not a real 4-way.

[Tiger-Heli]

At first I was thinking about going with the Ipac2 since it would handle all my basic needs, but I would need to have an Opti-pac as well for the track ball.  Is this the best route to go, or is going with the Mini-pack the best route to take?

The Opti-Pac controls Two trackballs and four spinners (or other mouse-like devices).  If you are only concerned with a single trackball, the mini-pac is more cost effective.  You should also consider the Opti-Wiz from www.groovygamegear.com for the trackball and the KeyWiz or GPWiz from them for the buttons and joysticks.

That adds up to 30 inputs, but from how I *think* I understood it is that you can wire joystick 3 to joystick 1, so that you save 4 inputs , hence it truly would only be 26 inputs used up.  Am I correct in this understanding?

The KeyWiz has 32 inputs, btw, as does the I-PAC VE.

The drawback to wiring Joystick 3 to Joystick 1 is that if P2 is smart (or Smart---I'm attempting to get by the auto-censor and should be beaten after I re-read the rules--), they can move Joystick 3 to mess up Player 1.  The workarounds for this are:  Route a switch to swap the gnd connections on and off so that only one of the joysticks is active, or Play as Player 2 is 2P games so you can mess up the other player, but they can't mess up you, or Connect the Joystick up independently (30 inputs as you said), but then you have to map your single joystick games to use different inputs than your dual joystick games.

You can also ditch the two buttons for Joystick 3 and wire these to the same input as P1B1 and P1B2, so you are down to 24 inputs.

I recommend dedicated buttons for pause and escape, which puts you back to 26.

Depending on your frontend, you may want left and right mouse buttons for the trackball.  These would connect to the optical interface, but you don't need them for emulation, only for frontend/windows stuff.

For the Trackball, I would need to buy the following to get it all to work correctly I believe, am I correct in thinking this?:
Opti-PAC Interface
Trackball 2 1/4in With Opti-PAC Cable
Trackball Mounting Plate

Depends - You can get Happs or Betson 3" trackballs for around $30 from Menace and others on the B/S/T board here.  The Opti-Wiz or mini-pac is an alternative to the Opti-Pac.  The mounting plate simplifies installation and would be recommended, but is not essential, depending on your access and knowledge of woodworking tools.

Is the $19 Wiring kit from Ultimarc have all the wiring I would need for the arcade controls?  Would I need more, or does it come with more then enough?

No real way to answer that.  If "all" you are getting is the kit, it's not a good deal (at least in USA).  $19 plus $17 shipping or $36 for:
Crimping Pliers - typically $7.99 to $10 at auto parts or hardware stores.
Approximately 24 yards of wire - (90 ft (30 yrds) of 22AWG wire for $4.99 at Radio Shack) (but not all the different pretty colors).
100 non-insulated QD's - not sure if these are 0.25 or 0.187 - Generally these will run you about $10 at auto parts stores.  Peale (member) used to be selling these reasonably, don't know if he still is.
Unknown size and amount of cable ties.

How much wire you need depends on where you mount the encoder and how wide your CP is, but I prefer to buy stuff like this locally.

Thats about it for now.  I am sorry if this is all posted somewhere already, if so please give me a link if ya know it.  I have tried to make my own 'bookmark list' of everything, along with reading as much as possible, and I think I am begining to have an information overload.

This will help with the information, but not with the overload:
http://www.mameworld.net/tigerheli/encoder/index.htm
http://www.mameworld.net/tigerheli/

[mallclerks]

Here it is:
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=63423.msg632794#msg632794

Where in Illinois are you?

Bourbonnais, Illinois - My Final Fight game was actually a converted Pac-Man cabinet.





Okay, I think I am getting a better idea of everything, though if someone could essentially double check my work to be sure I am not being a total screw up.  I am starting to feel like this guy ---> 


For the trackball, I could buy:

Optiwiz - Allowing me to use a trackball along with 3 additional buttons
http://groovygamegear.com/webstore/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=76_85&products_id=260 ($17 /Groovygamegear)

I could then buy a Trackball itself, from someone like Menance http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=65166.0 (~$35/Menance)

With that Trackball I would then also need to buy a Trackball Mounting plate ($16/Ultimarc)

I could then Install the trackball into my control panel, then plug it into the USB port on my computer.  Do I need a power source for this, or does the USB connection provide it?  This is one thing I am unaware of, besides that everything else I *think* makes sense to me.


For the rest of the panel I could:


Use an Ipac:VE ($37/Ultimarc) or Keywiz Max 1.5 ($35/Groovygamegear)

With the Ipac:VE or Keywiz Max 1.5 I could then have the following configuration since I have 32 inputs:

1/2 player start (2 inputs)
1 player b1-b6 (6 inputs total)
2 player b1-b6 (6 inputs total)
pause / escape (2 inputs)
joystick 1 (4 inputs)
joystick 2 (4 inputs)
joystick 3 (4 inputs)
2 buttons joystick 3 (2 inputs)
2 coin (2 inputs)

total = 32 inputs


Would I be correct in this thinking.  Also using the Keywiz would be the better choice if I am thinking of this correctly, since joystick 3 would need to be a custom codeset, which with Ipac:VE it will not save that setting when the unit is turned off, which with the Keywiz it will save all settings in eeprom?


Is my thinking of all of this sound about right, or have I totally got off track?

[leapinlew]

If you buy a USB trackball - you won't need an optiwiz.

[mallclerks]

If you buy a USB trackball - you won't need an optiwiz.

Where can I buy a USB trackball for a good price?  I have tried looking and they all appear to be near or over $100 each.  If I bought something like the Optiwiz ($17) and $35 trackball from http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=65166.0 total cost would only be around $50 - Half the cost?

Or am I mistaken in this thinking?  While money is not the greatest concern, I am still trying to do this as cheap as can be   If it turns out awesome I figure I will put more money into my next one 

[AndyWarne]

Of course I am biased but...
Even allowing for this, it seems to me that the Mini-PAC is dificult to beat here.
The trackball price from Menace is great. I thought our prices on the Happ 3in were good but the price you mention can't be beaten. This will plug directly into the Mini-PAC if you order the correct harness.
Get the Happ trackball. This is far superior to the Betson which makes a loud rumbling noise. Betson trackballs all had to be swapped out by the manufacturers of Golden Tee, and replaced with Happ.
The Mini-PAC will give you one USB plug for all and has EEPROM, a self-test LED to check your wiring, macro support, keyboard LED support. 28 switches plus 2 mouse buttons.
You may find the wiring harness supplied with the Mini-PAC works out cheaper than buying all the items separately but be aware that if your panel is unusually large you might need the extension wire pack.
Wiring one dedicated 4-way in parallel with player 1 is quite common and although Tiger-Heli is right, I have not seen the possible "messing up" by player 2 being raised as an issue before.
Or you could go for 4-8 way switchable joysticks.
Apologies if this sounds like a bit of a sales pitch but it seems the best option to me... but I'm biased...and its my birthday today so I feel like indulging a bit..
Andy

[Chris G]

What a dedicated guy - working on his birthday.   

Have a good one, Andy! 

[Tiger-Heli]

Closer . . .

With that Trackball I would then also need to buy a Trackball Mounting plate ($16/Ultimarc)

You could probably get the plate cheaper (when you figure shipping) from either www.therealbobroberts.com or DiveMaster or Ponyboy on the B/S/T forum, who are Happ resellers.  Not opposed to Ultimarc, but their shipping to US adds a lot to the price.

I could then Install the trackball into my control panel, then plug it into the USB port on my computer.  Do I need a power source for this, or does the USB connection provide it?  This is one thing I am unaware of, besides that everything else I *think* makes sense to me.

I think the USB connection provides it, RandyT at GGG could confirm.  If not you just route 5V or 12V from the PC power supply.

The Mini-Pac is also a viable option for your setup, although you then would need to combine the sticks to get back down below 28 inputs.

Use an Ipac:VE ($37/Ultimarc) or Keywiz Max 1.5 ($35/Groovygamegear)
With the Ipac:VE or Keywiz Max 1.5 I could then have the following configuration since I have 32 inputs:
total = 32 inputs
Would I be correct in this thinking.

Yes, however, using separate inputs for joystick 1 and 3 and the Joystick 3 buttons requires additional setup in your software (MAME), but avoids any confusion.  Combining them makes an easier software setup, but both Stick 1 and Stick 3 will control player 1.

Also using the Keywiz would be the better choice if I am thinking of this correctly, since joystick 3 would need to be a custom codeset, which with Ipac:VE it will not save that setting when the unit is turned off, which with the Keywiz it will save all settings in eeprom?
Is my thinking of all of this sound about right, or have I totally got off track?

OOOPS! Now you just got off track.

First off, you don't want separate encoder codesets for player 1 and player 3 (although you could do it this way), what you want is joystick 1 to use the arrow keys for Player 1 in dual joystick games and Joystick 1 to use your joystick 3 inputs in single joystick games.  This would usually be setup in MAME.

Second, the KeyWiz has no EEPROM.  Both it and the IPAC VE lose any custom codesets on power down.

The advantage to the KeyWiz, IMHO, is it has a very well thought out default codeset, so you don't need to re-program it.  (IMS the VE either repeats or doesn't assign some default codes, so you have to re-program it if you use all 32 codeset).  The KeyWiz does have a virtual EEPROM, where it writes the last loaded config set to a file and automatically loads it to the unit on a re-boot.  The VE could be programmed to a custom set at bootup automatically as well, but I don't think you can have it load the last used set automatically (although I would want my MAME default set loaded with either encoder.)

The VE has the advantage that it is USB, but if you have PS/2 ports on your current and any likely replacement computer that really doesn't make a difference.

I have seen USB trackballs around the $60-$75 price range, but that is more than the Menace/Optiwiz option.

[Tiger-Heli]

Get the Happ trackball. This is far superior to the Betson which makes a loud rumbling noise. Betson trackballs all had to be swapped out by the manufacturers of Golden Tee, and replaced with Happ.

I wasn't aware of this, and in fact just read a post yesterday where someone preferred the Imperial - Reply #8 by Shorthair here: http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=65324.0

Wiring one dedicated 4-way in parallel with player 1 is quite common and although Tiger-Heli is right, I have not seen the possible "messing up" by player 2 being raised as an issue before.

In fairness, I would guess more people combine the two than have them wired separately.

Or you could go for 4-8 way switchable joysticks.

True, I forgot about this option, even though I use them personally.  Although IMHO, it is hard to find a stick that feels perfect for both types of games, so I would probably use a dedicated 4-way if you have CP real estate for it.

and its my birthday today so I feel like indulging a bit..
Andy

Happy birthday, Andy

[mallclerks]

Okay, so lets try this, below is everything I should technically need to make a control panel that would work:

Mini-PAC Opti. With Harness (p/n MP1)
Happ trackball from menace (Of which I can use this if I order the Happ T/B Harness)

1/2 player start (2 inputs)
1 player b1-b6 (6 inputs total)
2 player b1-b6 (6 inputs total)
pause / escape (2 inputs)
joystick 1 4-8 switchable (4 inputs)
joystick 2 4-8 switchable (4 inputs)
2 coin (2 inputs)

total = 26 inputs, leaving two additional inputs available.  BUT, Does the trackball take up any of those inputs?


(edit - I am assuming that to use a coin door I can rig it so it works along the same wires as the coin1 and coin2 buttons?.  I have yet to decide if I shall use a coin door though.)

[Tiger-Heli]

Okay, so lets try this, below is everything I should technically need to make a control panel that would work:

Mini-PAC Opti. With Harness (p/n MP1)
Happ trackball from menace (Of which I can use this if I order the Happ T/B Harness)

I am not sure what trackball harness you need to connect the Happ to the Mini-Pac (if any).  Andy can advise you on that.

Contradicting what I posted previously, if you are getting the interface and possibly other items from Ultimarc, you likely should get the trackball plate from them also.

joystick 2 4-8 switchable (4 inputs)

Joystick 2 could be a standard 8-way.  I think Karate Champ was about the only really popular dual 4-way game.  OTOH, you might want the same stick for P1 and P2, just so the "feel" is the same.

total = 26 inputs, leaving two additional inputs available.  BUT, Does the trackball take up any of those inputs?

No, just the opposite, you get an additional 2 (with the mini-pac, sometimes 3 with other interfaces) inputs for the mouse left and right buttons.

[mallclerks]

So what I posted above would work fine?  And with that setup I would have multiple extra inputs for additional buttons?  I don't see a reason I really need a third joystick if I use a 4-8 switchable stick.  If need be I will learn from what I do and change things up later on, but I just wanna be sure I am getting everything needed for my first build.

[Tiger-Heli]

So what I posted above would work fine?

Yup, again, I don't know what harness you need to connect to the mini-pac, but it can be done.

And with that setup I would have multiple extra inputs for additional buttons?

Errm - multiple??? You have four.  Two unused Mini-Pac Keyboard inputs and the two unused Mouse inputs.  Keep in mind that some (not MAME) emulators won't recognize the mouse buttons, and some frontends may only recognize the mouse buttons . . . but you have 4 extra inputs.

I don't see a reason I really need a third joystick if I use a 4-8 switchable stick.

You don't.  What I meant was that you could use one 4-8 stick and one 8-way stick.

What I meant earlier was that if you have space for it you might prefer a different stick for four-way and 8-way games.

I use the Proidigy switchable 4/8-way joysticks.  They are very precise and have a short throw and I like them better than anything I have tried for 4-way games.  For 8-way games, I would prefer a slightly longer throw, but they do very well for them also.

OTOH, I have read replies from people that had no problem with a Happ Super in 8-way mode for PacMan and Donkey Kong, so a lot of this is subjective and personal preference and you won't know what you like til you try some of the different options.