Help choosing proper controller interface

[wudaben]

Hello all... I'm getting ready to order the various controllers and guts for my first cab and have a question about the necessary controller interface needed in my case. 

I'm am planning on using the UltraStick 360s, Electric Ice buttons, Happ 3" Translucent Trackball, TurboTwist 2 Spinner, Happ Over/Under Coin Door and am contemplating some nifty lighting designs w/ an LED-Wiz.  My cab is going to be a two player design w/ six buttons per player w/ a player 1 & 2 start button, esc & a pause button.  I may also hide a credit switch up top.  I am aware that the 360s can be used to wire up to eight buttons each.  What suggestions would you make regarding the interfaces for the trackball/spinner and the remaining buttons that cannot be connected to the 360s?

Thanks for any pearls of wisdom provided!

[ringram]

Trackball and spinner can be connected via USB. The remaining buttons can be connected to a keywiz.

[Kaytrim]

Since you are getting the Ice buttons and LEDWiz why not get the trackball to match from GGG as well?  Or if you really want a Happ tackball don't pay the extra for a translucent ball and USB connection.   Get a standard trackball without the USB header.  Get the trackball upgrade kit from GGG which will give you all the same lighting capabilities as your buttons.  You should be able to connect the trackball to the interface on the TT2.  Randy correct me if I am wrong.

As far as the KeyWiz goes that will work for you only if you have a PS/2 keyboard connection on your computer.  I don't know if a PS/2 to USB adapter will work.  I haven't heard one way or the other, Randy may know more.  Another option for your extra buttons is to get a GPWiz or an iPac.  The GPWiz will be recognized as a gamepad with buttons by your computer while the iPac will be seen as a keyboard like the KeyWiz would.

One other thing, you will want a credit button for each player.  Some games recognize separate coin insertions for each player.

TTFN
Kaytrim

[Jeff AMN]

I'm a big fan of the MiniPac from Ultimarc. It's a good deal and it handles plenty of inputs, a trackball, and a spinner no problem.

[wudaben]

Thanks guys.  Let me rephrase my question...

Should I just get one of the smaller encoders out there or is there any advantage/long term viability of the larger ones?  I'm assuming the answer to this is that it probably doesn't matter as long as I have the appropriate number of inputs but just wanted to be sure.  Looking at either the KeyWiz, Mini-PAC or I-PAC currently.

[wudaben]

Since you are getting the Ice buttons and LEDWiz why not get the trackball to match from GGG as well?  Or if you really want a Happ tackball don't pay the extra for a translucent ball and USB connection.   Get a standard trackball without the USB header.  Get the trackball upgrade kit from GGG which will give you all the same lighting capabilities as your buttons.  You should be able to connect the trackball to the interface on the TT2.  Randy correct me if I am wrong.

In many reviews it seemed like the Happ trackball was much better then most of the other options but then again that may be based on old data that might not pertain to some of these newer items on the market.  I originally started this project 3 yrs ago but then got really busy and couldn't finish it but I finally got tired of looking at all that good mdo plywood out in my garage and decided to finish this thing.

Is there much to be gained from the Happ trackball in comparison to the GGG model?

As far as the KeyWiz goes that will work for you only if you have a PS/2 keyboard connection on your computer.  I don't know if a PS/2 to USB adapter will work.  I haven't heard one way or the other, Randy may know more.  Another option for your extra buttons is to get a GPWiz or an iPac.  The GPWiz will be recognized as a gamepad with buttons by your computer while the iPac will be seen as a keyboard like the KeyWiz would.

I was a bit concerned about the long term availability of ps/2 devices when choosing a controller.  The computer I choose for this does happen to have both ps/2 & usb but since it was 3yrs ago that I bought it, it only has four usb ports.

One other thing, you will want a credit button for each player.  Some games recognize separate coin insertions for each player.

Great point!  I guess that makes two hidden credit buttons.  I really want the cab to resemble a true arcade and I'm already pushing it with the esc & pause buttons.

[Kaytrim]

With the versatility of the joysticks you are planning on using, the smaller interface should handle any other button inputs you might need.  Any of the interfaces you have listed would also be able to handle all the buttons you have listed. 

The TT2 comes with it's own interface as can the Happ trackball.  With this in mind you would need 5 USB inputs on the computer or 4 USB and the PS/2 Keyboard connector.  If you were to do the trackball as I suggested above, connecting the trackball to the TT2 interface then you would only need 4 or 3 USB inputs. 

The good and bad thing about this hobby now is all the choices we have. 

TTFN
Kaytrim

Just read your last post.  The Happ trackball is still the tops according to the masses and I like mine.  The option of the trackball upgrade kit from GGG contains his translucent ball and lighting module.  You just swap the GGG ball for the one in the Happ housing and install the lighting module.  divemaster over in the buy/sell/trade forum has the Happ trackballs cheep including the mounting plate.

l8r g8r 
Kaytrim

[Jeff AMN]

I really want the cab to resemble a true arcade and I'm already pushing it with the esc & pause buttons.

You can use the shift function of an I-PAC or a Shazaam key with the KeyWiz to eliminate the pause and esc buttons. I have my pause mapped to that if I hold down my P1 start button and press down on the P1 joystick, the game pauses. It doesn't show up on the panel, but the functionality is there.

[Tiger-Heli]

I don't know if a PS/2 to USB adapter will work.  I haven't heard one way or the other, Randy may know more. 

Not very well, see replies #26 and 29: http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=35840.0

[Kaytrim]

I don't know if a PS/2 to USB adapter will work.  I haven't heard one way or the other, Randy may know more. 

Not very well, see replies #26 and 29: http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=35840.0

Thanks for the info Tiger.
Kaytrim

[btp2k2]

I throw my vote in for the Minipac too.....I love it.

[Tiger-Heli]

Great point!  I guess that makes two hidden credit buttons.  I really want the cab to resemble a true arcade and I'm already pushing it with the esc & pause buttons.

Personally, for a real arcade cab, I'm a big fan of using the coin rejects as credit buttons - ala http://1uparcade.robandmitsue.com/projects-coinbuttons.html or if you want to "fake" it: http://groovygamegear.com/webstore/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=295&zenid=dedc26e2997fe8f0a13bd9ed444f4085

I'm also a fan of dedicated Pause buttons, although I also like the idea of having pause dedicated and (in the case of the I-PAC) using Pause as your "Shift" input and having escape shifted.

Also, if you want authenticity - Pause and Esc don't have to be huge red buttons on the top of your CP, you could mount a black button to the underside of the CP case, where you could find it but it wouldn't be obvious, or miniature buttons in a recessed panel, etc.

[wudaben]

Great point!  I guess that makes two hidden credit buttons.  I really want the cab to resemble a true arcade and I'm already pushing it with the esc & pause buttons.

Personally, for a real arcade cab, I'm a big fan of using the coin rejects as credit buttons - ala http://1uparcade.robandmitsue.com/projects-coinbuttons.html or if you want to "fake" it: http://groovygamegear.com/webstore/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=295&zenid=dedc26e2997fe8f0a13bd9ed444f4085

That's really a good idea!  I saw those groovy buttons but never really considered that concept since I was going to use a functional coin door.

I'm also a fan of dedicated Pause buttons, although I also like the idea of having pause dedicated and (in the case of the I-PAC) using Pause as your "Shift" input and having escape shifted.

Also, if you want authenticity - Pause and Esc don't have to be huge red buttons on the top of your CP, you could mount a black button to the underside of the CP case, where you could find it but it wouldn't be obvious, or miniature buttons in a recessed panel, etc.

It just seems to me that it is almost essential to have fairly prominent placement of these two buttons... Pause would be the one button I'd die to have included in most original arcade classics and esc is just natural for a multi game machine.  I plan on including basic control help using bezel artwork but I'd save myself from having to explain game play to every new person who comes by the house by just including them and labeling them appropriately.

[scotthh]

I don't think you need any additional interface:

2 UltraStick 360s: harness for 8 buttons each; input 1 USB each
1 TurboTwist2: 3 mouse axes, 3 buttons (see attached picture); input 1 USB

You can handle 19 buttons and 3 mouse axes. You have 3 USB devices going to the computer.

Happ 3" Translucent Trackball: 2 axes
TurboTwist 2 Spinner: 1 axis

Buttons:
12: 6 buttons per player
2: coin buttons
2: player 1 & 2 start buttons
2: esc & a pause button. 

That's 18 buttons. You have 1 to spare!

[Tiger-Heli]

That's 18 buttons. You have 1 to spare!

Errrm, maybe - Depends what the cabinet will be used for.  Your Ultrastick 360's report as gamepad buttons.  Your TurboTwist reports as mouse buttons.

MAME will allow you to map basically any gamepad and any mouse button to any input.  So for MAME you are pretty much fine with your suggestion.

For other emulators, I am not sure that all recognize gamepad inputs, and/or would allow mouse buttons to be used for coin inputs or Exit commands.  I just ran into a problem with keyboard inputs with Nebula M2.  It allows re-mapping of button inputs, but save states are hard-coded as CTRL-1,CTRL-2, etc, so if you re-map to MAME defaults, P1B1 and P2Coin, or P2 Start generates a save state load.

There are ways to work around these issues (Don't use the MAME defaults and either re-program the encoder or modify the outputs for Nebula M2).

For wudaben:  AutoHotKey will recognize mouse buttons inputs (and convert them to keypresses), and RBjoy or Joytokey will convert gamepad/joypad outputs to keypresses.  So you could use Scotthh's suggestion, possibly with RBJoy codes and an AutoHotKey script for each emulator to convert mouse buttons to the appropriate keyboard buttons, but if you are using more than MAME, it would likely be a LOT simpler to pick up a KeyWiz or KeyWiz Eco and wire all the buttons to it (but not the actual U360 outputs, hook it up via USB so you can still play analog games).

[Tiger-Heli]

I really want the cab to resemble a true arcade and I'm already pushing it with the esc & pause buttons.
It just seems to me that it is almost essential to have fairly prominent placement of these two buttons... Pause would be the one button I'd die to have included in most original arcade classics and esc is just natural for a multi game machine.

Can't argue with you there.  I was just keying on your comment about pushing realism with the Esc and Pause buttons.  As you can see, I have them right at the front on my desktop panel (the orange button is pause, the red one is Esc, there is a black one on the left for Shazaaam!).  I also use Mccoy178's AHK script now to make sure esc has to be pressed for one second before it exits the game on me.

What you might still consider then is having the buttons colored but maybe on the bottom side of the CP or the bottom of the marquee, so they are staring at you on the CP, but are still accessible.  Or not, depending on how much it bothers you.

[scotthh]

Tiger-Heli,

Thanks for explaining the potential downsides to my suggestion. I am planning a CP with one U360, TT2 and a trackball.  I thought I would need to get an optical encoder and a button encoder, so I was reading this thread for personal interest. I plan on trying my way for the near term. I will report back my results. 

[Tiger-Heli]

Thanks for explaining the potential downsides to my suggestion. I am planning a CP with one U360, TT2 and a trackball.  I thought I would need to get an optical encoder and a button encoder, so I was reading this thread for personal interest. I plan on trying my way for the near term. I will report back my results. 

I wasn't trying to shoot your idea down.  I acutually had neglected considering the mouse buttons on the TT2 myself.  Like I said, for MAME it should be fine.  For other emulators, you can likely get there with a combination of RBJoy and AutoHotKey.  It just eventually comes down to whether an extra half-hour or so configuring each Emulator is worth more than $25-$35 for a KeyWiz Eco, KeyWiz, or I-PAC.

[wudaben]

For wudaben:  AutoHotKey will recognize mouse buttons inputs (and convert them to keypresses), and RBjoy or Joytokey will convert gamepad/joypad outputs to keypresses.  So you could use Scotthh's suggestion, possibly with RBJoy codes and an AutoHotKey script for each emulator to convert mouse buttons to the appropriate keyboard buttons, but if you are using more than MAME, it would likely be a LOT simpler to pick up a KeyWiz or KeyWiz Eco and wire all the buttons to it (but not the actual U360 outputs, hook it up via USB so you can still play analog games).

At this point an extra $30 or so for an encoder would be well worth it.  I might test it out without the encoder just to see the difference.  On a side note....I've read about ghosting issues but have you ever seen any odd behavior in Mame from various controls basically being "piggybacked" through several usb devices/hubs?  I'm an IT consultant and have seen this with certain pointing devices if they are connected to a usb hub but have never researched this with controls.

[Kaytrim]

At this point an extra $30 or so for an encoder would be well worth it.  I might test it out without the encoder just to see the difference.  On a side note....I've read about ghosting issues but have you ever seen any odd behavior in Mame from various controls basically being "piggybacked" through several usb devices/hubs?  I'm an IT consultant and have seen this with certain pointing devices if they are connected to a usb hub but have never researched this with controls.

This is a constant question and issue on the boards.  The best solution that has been found is to mount the devices that are the same, in this case your joysticks, on separate USB headers.  Some manufactures give you the option to designate a different name for the same device on the same computer.  This also eliminates most of the problems.  Just to be sure I'd plug the joysticks in separate USB headers so there is no ambiguity.  Then attach both the spinner and trackball on the one interface that come with the TT2.  The KeyWiz plugs into the PS/2 port and you are golden.

TTFN
Kaytrim

[Tiger-Heli]

At this point an extra $30 or so for an encoder would be well worth it.  I might test it out without the encoder just to see the difference.  On a side note....I've read about ghosting issues but have you ever seen any odd behavior in Mame from various controls basically being "piggybacked" through several usb devices/hubs?  I'm an IT consultant and have seen this with certain pointing devices if they are connected to a usb hub but have never researched this with controls.

Again, if you are using MAME only, I think you would be okay just using the mouse buttons.

There are three issues being discussed here, so I want to go over each of them, as I am not quite sure which one you are referring to.

Ghosting/Blocking - This is a "feature" implemented in most keyboards, to prevent multiple keys from being pressed.  You need to worry about it with keyboard hacks and such, and also encoders that just use a modified keyboard controller circuit chip.  Most high-end and certainly all of the GGG and Ultimarc encoders are aware of this problem and have taken steps to avoid it, so you don't need to worry about it.

Latency - This is what I think of with your comment about piggybacking, basically asking about plugging a KeyWiz into the pass-thru port on an I-pac, and or both controllers fighting to send their signals through at the same time and one of them getting lost.  I think in theory it could cause some problems, but I have never heard of it happening in a practical sense.

Hubs - The problem here is with two USB devices with the same circuit controller swapping Device ID's.  (Which is what KayTrim refers to).  Basically, Joystick 2 may be either Joystick 1 or Joystick 2 on bootup.  The U360's allow you to change their UID through software, which will avoid the problem.  The issue is well explained by Kremmit in Reply #4 here.