A quick hello and a few questions regarding a bartop machine!

[Aikon]

Hi there, my name's Martin and I'm 25 and live in the UK!

Well... like probably most people on here I dreamed of having an arcade machine as a kid. A good few years back I saw all these cool looking Mame cabinets (full size upright and cocktail) but alas I don't have the space (I still live at home with my folks and there's no way in hell they'll let me buy one... There's not enough space).

Anyway skip forward a few years and I start to come across these "bartop" or tabletop Mame machines... At first I wasn't a big fan as these just aren't as authentic as the real thing to me. Well... in the last couple of weeks I came across this site again and saw all the wonderful bartop machines!

I've been looking/lurking round arcadecontrols.com (and the wiki, various faqs/forums on here... and many many google searches) and decided to take the plunge and try to build my own Bartop machine!

Below are the things I have to factor in:

1/ Space. I'll be using a 14" monitor (screen is 13" approx) and the depth is one of the bigger issues as I have limited room to keep it.

2/ Cost. I'm a bit low on funds at the moment so I'm going to try and make this as cheap as possible. HOWEVER... I do want some decent controls and don't want the cabinet to looks tacky. I guess what I'm trying to say is the PC itself will be made of cheap/spare components and the outside will look professional (I hope) but nothing too flash. I'll hopefully be moving out either this year or the next and THEN I'll be able to go full size!

This is what I've got so far:

a 14" monitor I managed to pick up for free
128MB Ram SDRAM I think

Brought the following off ebay:

INTEL CELERON 466MHZ plus a mini atx mobo with integrated gfx (4MB I think) and sound for £6 (includes P&P). This should save me quite a bit of space.

A new Sidewinder pad (midi gameport version) for £5. I'll be hacking this into my arcade controls... Also there's a load of buttons on this and also I'm able to chain them up to 4 of them if I wanted.

I'm using this project as a practice run but also to gain some woodworking and electrical skills I can later use.

Judging from the specs above I'll be using DOS mame with some kind of front end. My aim is to primarily play mid 80s (Pacland) to early 90s games (Simpsons) at full speed with sound. I'd also like to play the majority of Neo Geo games (if mame is too slow I can always use neorage) and if I'm very lucky the CPS2 games (eg Super Street Fighter 2).

I think I've rambled on enough now so here are my questions:

1/ As space is an issue I'm thinking of taking off the outer monitor case to reduce the depth of the cab. But I don't want to kill myself in the process.... I've read up on the monitor guides on here and frankly it does seem damn risky. The monitor is a PC CRT and not an actual arcade monitor. How hard is it really to fit an uncased monitor into a cab... Do you save that much depth space?

2/ I'm tempted by the X-Arcade parts bundle for $30 (But shipping to the UK is $30 extra). It still turns out cheaper than most other places based in the uk for what you get. Or should I just get a quality stik and buttons from ultimarc or elsewhere?

3/ Is DOS the best way to go with my spec? How likely is it I'll need a new soundcard to get sound working in dos? (sound is on mobo).... Just realised the mobo I brought doesn't have an ISA slot... Damn!

Thanks for reading this! I have a rough idea in my head how this will all look completed but until I get most of the parts and measure them I can't draw up any plans. Any advice is greatly welcomed!

[leapinlew]

Hey!

Get some cardboard and make a mockup!

They are fun to do and give you a good idea of what your getting ready to get into.

[Fozzy The Bear]

Hi welcome to the forum.....

I'm in the UK too... and I can see you heading for some of the pitfalls that I failed to avoid the first time round.

1) Don't touch the X-arcade bundle with a very long barge pole.... The stuff in it isn't great.

2) Don't hack a game pad for your controls. That's entirely the wrong way to go. go to Groovy Game Gear and get yourself a Keywiz.

3) Sanwa and Happ sticks are a better chioce. (except the happs ultimate sticks, which are rubbish)

First thing you should do is head over to Groovy Game Gear.
http://www.groovygamegear.com
Have a browse round there.

Ultimark stuff is good, but for the UK his shipping is terrible... over priced because he insists on using UPS... No idea why he can't put the stuff in the Royal Mail like everybody else.

On a 466Mhz PC you're only going to be able to run the early 80's stuff in Mame. Even then, only if you use an earlier version of Mame. Seriously consider an upgrade. The real bottom end limit right now as far as I'm concerned has to be somewhere in excess of 1Ghz.

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)

[Aikon]

Thanks for all the comments and suggestions. I think I will try to get a cardboard mockup made to give me a rough idea how the end product will end up!

Fozzy: Thanks for the heads up on the x-arcade info... I think I'll give it a miss and try some of the other controls you mentioned. The reason I'm thinking of using a joypad hack is down to cost. Having used a sidewinder before I can vouch that all the buttons (dpad, 6 button layout, 2 shoulder buttons and a couple of start/select ones) can be pushed at once and therefore no blocking/ghosting. I could also hook up to 4 of them (via daisy chaining) to the mobo's midi/game port.

The keywiz looks good however I'd lose the use of the PS2 port on my mobo. (I don't have any USB ports so no chance of a keyboard any other way).

From your experience, what's the delivery charge to the UK like (If I was to order a joystick and a dozen buttons).

Thanks for all your help guys.

[horseboy]

Get a Minipac from Ultimarc. He has them on BYOAC special right now for $26. It has a PS2 pass thru port so you can hook up a keyboard. Also it has an optical hookup, so you can hookup a trackball, but that is only for USB use (so nevermind that). I still think it is your best bet since it has a keyboard pass thru that you need.

[paigeoliver]

Fozzie's advice is mostly solid with the exception of the bit about the 466 PC. Install mame version .55 and that computer will run everything in Mame with only a few exceptions. I repeat, a 466 PC running mame .55 will run everything in that version full speed, other than the stuff on Mortal Kombat hardware. You don't NEED a better PC. You only need a better PC if you want to use a newer mame version. The newer mame versions do add some more games and fix a few problems, but honestly that stuff is minute, the new games they add are things you never heard of, and most of the problems they fix are ones that most people can't even notice.

Before anybody gets on a version war. The poster specifically said he wanted to save money. A 466 mhz running .55 will run thousands of titles full speed. Current version with a 3 GHZ PC won't actually add all that much.

Hi welcome to the forum.....

I'm in the UK too... and I can see you heading for some of the pitfalls that I failed to avoid the first time round.

1) Don't touch the X-arcade bundle with a very long barge pole.... The stuff in it isn't great.

2) Don't hack a game pad for your controls. That's entirely the wrong way to go. go to Groovy Game Gear and get yourself a Keywiz.

3) Sanwa and Happ sticks are a better chioce. (except the happs ultimate sticks, which are rubbish)

First thing you should do is head over to Groovy Game Gear.
http://www.groovygamegear.com
Have a browse round there.

Ultimark stuff is good, but for the UK his shipping is terrible... over priced because he insists on using UPS... No idea why he can't put the stuff in the Royal Mail like everybody else.

On a 466Mhz PC you're only going to be able to run the early 80's stuff in Mame. Even then, only if you use an earlier version of Mame. Seriously consider an upgrade. The real bottom end limit right now as far as I'm concerned has to be somewhere in excess of 1Ghz.

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)

[Fozzy The Bear]

Get a Minipac from Ultimarc. He has them on BYOAC special right now for $26. It has a PS2 pass thru port so you can hook up a keyboard.

The Keywiz also has a keyboard passthough on the full version..... and by the time you add up the shipping, it's still cheaper to get a Keywiz from Randy in the USA than it is to get a MiniPac from Andy in the UK. Especially if he's looking to buy joysticks and buttons and T-Molding and the other bits he'll need, at the same time.

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)

[spriggy]

Paige is right....  you should be able to get away with 0.71 as well... but no more (Not mega efficiently anyway).  0.55 will still technically run a few more however.

Good luck.

(PS Good to see u posting again Paige..  We'll have to create a few more "Identify this cabinet?" threads 4 ya!!  )

[Aikon]

Hi all, thanks for all the comments/suggestions so far! I have a complete set of MAME .71 roms which I could use. Also I'll be using DOS (providing I can get the sound on the mobo working in dos) which should speed things up a little.

Would it be better to change the romsets to 0.55 standard? Or will my CPU be ok with 0.71 games (the most taxing game would be The Simpsons).

I've looked on ebay and could get a 1ghz processor for cheap if I need it. I hope to have 128MB of ram (I have one 64MB stick in the house and another one in the same static bag so I'm guessing it's another 64MB stick). Would this be ok for Neo Geo games (Metal Slug X)? I don't have to use mame to play them.

When I finally do get a full size cabinet built I'd use a keywiz or Ipac type device. However as this cab is going to be on a budget I think a sidewinder hack would be easiest... Has anyone else wired up a joystick and buttons this way? Are there control issues at all?

[Fozzy The Bear]

I've looked on ebay and could get a 1ghz processor for cheap if I need it. I hope to have 128MB of ram (I have one 64MB stick in the house and another one in the same static bag so I'm guessing it's another 64MB stick). Would this be ok for Neo Geo games (Metal Slug X)? I don't have to use mame to play them.

Mame doesn't run Neo-Geo stuff perfectly.... especially Metal Slug X Your best bet is NeoRageX 5.0 If you want to run MVS and AES carts then nothing beats it. It should run fine on that spec.

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)

[btp2k2]

Get a Minipac from Ultimarc. He has them on BYOAC special right now for $26. It has a PS2 pass thru port so you can hook up a keyboard. Also it has an optical hookup, so you can hookup a trackball, but that is only for USB use (so nevermind that). I still think it is your best bet since it has a keyboard pass thru that you need.

What? How does one take advantage of such a deal?

Hell, at 26 bucks, I would get like 10 of em!

[horseboy]

Get a Minipac from Ultimarc. He has them on BYOAC special right now for $26. It has a PS2 pass thru port so you can hook up a keyboard.

The Keywiz also has a keyboard passthough on the full version..... and by the time you add up the shipping, it's still cheaper to get a Keywiz from Randy in the USA than it is to get a MiniPac from Andy in the UK. Especially if he's looking to buy joysticks and buttons and T-Molding and the other bits he'll need, at the same time.

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)

Last night GGG site was down, so I couldn't check if it had a pass thru. I did a search and it turned up someone complaining about it not having a pass thru, but I assume now that they were refering to the other version. 

Get a Minipac from Ultimarc. He has them on BYOAC special right now for $26. It has a PS2 pass thru port so you can hook up a keyboard. Also it has an optical hookup, so you can hookup a trackball, but that is only for USB use (so nevermind that). I still think it is your best bet since it has a keyboard pass thru that you need.

What? How does one take advantage of such a deal?

Hell, at 26 bucks, I would get like 10 of em!

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=63236.0

[btp2k2]

Thank you kind sir!

[Aikon]

Full speed Mame and Neo Geo games! Wayhey!

I guess the only other question (for now ) is... How easy it is to install my 14" monitor with it's case off into a bartop cab? Has anyone else tried this?

[leapinlew]

Leave the case on.

[btp2k2]

Full speed Mame and Neo Geo games! Wayhey!

I guess the only other question (for now ) is... How easy it is to install my 14" monitor with it's case off into a bartop cab? Has anyone else tried this?

I found these gigantic zip ties...They are actually called "Cable Ties" (Most industrial supply places have them...not Home Depot but like the heavy duty places...I found mine at a place called "Tacoma Screws" here in Seattle)...they are 36" long. I double the length by putting two together.

Put the monitor where you want it, and mark and drill holes on the side of the monitor. The holes need to match up on each side...do two on each side.

Then, you take your big ass zip tie and feed it through the holes and wrap it around the monitor and tighten them down....that thing won't go anywhere. The only way I can move the monitor after I do that is to cut the ties. It is very solid. I do that to secure the computer as well.

[Aikon]

Thanks, I think I'll do a bit more research on the subject

[ChadTower]

Interesting concept on the zip ties, but don't you get annoyed with having zip tie loops outside your cab?  Maybe take it a step further in design.  Mount some hardware on the inside, out of sight, and loop the zip ties through the hardware.  That way if you are taking the zip tie approach you don't have to see it from the outside.

[btp2k2]

outside? There are no zip ties outside the cab. I build a monitor shelf and zip tie it to the shelf, and then trim the excess. You don't see anything on the outside

[ChadTower]

Ah, yes, I misunderstood what you were trying to describe.  What I saw in my head was cheesy.

[quick2shoot]

  You really don't save much space removing the monitor case, and it exposes some pretty dangerous bits inside. The main reason for removing the case is to dissipate heat a little better, or to use the monitors front section of case to mount it in the cab using the original screw holes, IF you do decide to remove the case BE CAREFUL! you can give yourself one hell of a nasty shock if you don't discharge the capacitors, i think there are directions for discharging the caps somewhere in this sea of helpful knowledge.
 Good luck with your project, and when its "finished"  post pictures in the project announcement section

[btp2k2]

Ah, yes, I misunderstood what you were trying to describe.  What I saw in my head was cheesy.

Yeah....that would look pretty bad. Then I could sell it on Ebay!

Zip ties are great. I became a wiz with zip ties from my years as a mechanic.

[ChadTower]

I use them for quite a bit too.  I did learn the hard way not to use them to keep your broken exhaust pipe off the ground on the way to the mechanic... they melted and it dropped anyway.   

[Aikon]

Well I took the case off the 14" monitor to measure the depth and it's only half an inch less than with the case on! My next step is to order the controls (Sanwa joystick?) and get an ATX PSU.

[spriggy]

I always decase.  Easier to mount imo.  Also, if your doing a bartop... any space gained from decasing is going to be helpful.. especially if you want to keep it small and compact.

[KenToad]

Zip ties!  Effin brilliant!

 

[Aikon]

I'd love to decase the monitor but I'm just scared I'd screw up and touch the anode cap or something!

I plan to install a fan or two on the top of the bartop cab to get the hot air from the monitor out.

BTW I decided to visit that groovygamegear site and order my controls (Happ Competition joystick and buttons) and some t-molding.

If I'm lucky (and can get the parts) I might be able to set the PC up to see how things run!

[paigeoliver]

You can touch the anode cap, what you don't want to do is rip it out of it's socket and stick your finger in the hole on a monitor that tends to hold a charge.

Some computer monitors decase easily, others are nightmares I wouldn't wish on anyone.

[ChadTower]

Depends on the tube.  If there is damage to the insulative paint around the outside of the anode hole, just touching around the cap can get you zapped.  Granted, that's not a monitor he wants to be using due to the damage, but it's something he'd need to be aware of.

It's actually fun to watch one of those failing in operation.  There are tiny blue sparks leaking out of the anode cap onto the outside of the tube within an inch or so of the cap.  It's like a tiny angry Palpatine.

[Aikon]

Aye I bet it looks ace! But I don't want to kill myself in the process lol! I'll try to get some of the wood this weekend and see if it all works! If it does.... then let the cabinet building begin!

[Kremmit]

Get a Minipac from Ultimarc. He has them on BYOAC special right now for $26. It has a PS2 pass thru port so you can hook up a keyboard.

The Keywiz also has a keyboard passthough on the full version..... and by the time you add up the shipping, it's still cheaper to get a Keywiz from Randy in the USA than it is to get a MiniPac from Andy in the UK. Especially if he's looking to buy joysticks and buttons and T-Molding and the other bits he'll need, at the same time.

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)

The free shipping is available to the UK as well, although only if you order the MiniPac by itself.

[Aikon]

IN the end I thought sod it and brought a keywiz eco... Turns out the mobo I'm using does have USB

[ark_ader]

Hi welcome to the forum.....

I'm in the UK too... and I can see you heading for some of the pitfalls that I failed to avoid the first time round.

1) Don't touch the X-arcade bundle with a very long barge pole.... The stuff in it isn't great.

2) Don't hack a game pad for your controls. That's entirely the wrong way to go. go to Groovy Game Gear and get yourself a Keywiz.

3) Sanwa and Happ sticks are a better chioce. (except the happs ultimate sticks, which are rubbish)

First thing you should do is head over to Groovy Game Gear.
http://www.groovygamegear.com
Have a browse round there.

Ultimark stuff is good, but for the UK his shipping is terrible... over priced because he insists on using UPS... No idea why he can't put the stuff in the Royal Mail like everybody else.

On a 466Mhz PC you're only going to be able to run the early 80's stuff in Mame. Even then, only if you use an earlier version of Mame. Seriously consider an upgrade. The real bottom end limit right now as far as I'm concerned has to be somewhere in excess of 1Ghz.

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)

Groovy Gamegear charges the same shipping $17.95 vs £8.

Don't get me wrong, your point is well made and the choice factor is much better than Ultimarc, but I find it is easier to return goods from a UK supplier than from a fellow American.  Something a New builder has to consider when buying parts in the UK.

The X Aracde option is not so bad if you use it for the other console formats.  To be honest I followed your recommendations to replace the microswitches to cherry microswitches in my X Arcade and you can immediately feel the difference.  Kudos Fozzy for that..


I am buying from Groovy Gamegear because of those Groovy Coin Door Buttons! 

[Aikon]

I ordered a lot of parts from www.groovygamegear.com in the end coz of Fozzy's recommendation. Hopefully I'll get them in a week or so and then the fun can begin!

[Aikon]

Hopefully the parts I've ordered will arrive soon... I'm in the process of designing my bartop using google's sketchup (and learning to use it at the same time). As stated eariler I've ordered a Keywiz Eco 2 (no solder version) as well... Just wondered if anyone has any idea what pins on the eco match up to the ide cable. For example:

Pin 1 Pin 3 Pin 5
Pin 2 Pin 4 Pin 6 = Red wire on IDE cable then next one to the right?

Or do the pins layout as:

Pin 1 Pin 2 Pin 3 etc = Red wire on IDE cable then next one to the right?

Sorry for sounding like a noob (I am when it comes to this)! I've tried searching on this forum and also looking at the documents on the groovygamegear site. I've emailed Randy (I guess he's the dude who runs the site/shop) a few mins ago to see if he can help me and just wondered if any of you came across any more info out there on the interweb...

Maybe I'm just jumping too far ahead and all will be explained once I actually receive the goods!