CP Layout, help & comments please?

[TroyO]

This is the basic layout I'm considering for my first attempt at a game machine CP.

The overall concept is a 2 part cab (I know, the thread just below that lists it as #1 sin, LOL) but I'm perhaps using it for different reasons. The top will have the PC/Speakers and 19" LCD. The CP will be detachable from that, so I will in essense have a "luggable" 2 Joy/Trackball CP and a basic machine to play some games as a tabletop unit at parties, etc.

The base will contain the steering wheel/Gas/brakes and 2 LCD top Guns. That part won't be going anywhere regularly. I almost have the 270/360 combo wheel hacked and figured out using a real 270 wheel as a base. (Yay!)

Anyway... on the actual questions now that I (Hopefully) have explained the design ideal and what I am going for...

#1 Did I make any major 'Doh! mistakes that anyone can see? I'm foggiest on trackball button layout, so I sorta-copied the X-arcade design. I usually only played Marble Madness, LOL. What the hell are all these buttons?

#2 This is set up at 28" W and 14" deep. I realize it's more crowded than a "real" arcade machine... but is it too crowded to play on as a fun machine? Am I way off on my spacing of stuff?

Since I have the Trackball and the Dual player stick I will be using the dreaded X-Arcade hardware, (I know.. people hate it) but I will be replacing most of the player buttons.

 #3 Would I be better off adding a dedicated 4 way stick to the lower right side in the open area, or would maybe replacing the main sticks with 2 of the Ultimarc Magstick Plus' that can switch between 4 and 8 way be a better choice? (I'm concerned because the review makes comments about aquired taste, twitchy, short throw etc.)

#4 Any comments or suggestions about things I'm too noob to even know to ask? ;-)

Thanks,
Troy

[Numbski]

Eep.  You might want to consider the angle of install for the p1 and p2 joysticks.  If the player has to stand at an angle to the CP, you would want the centerline for that player's controls perpendicular to the edge of the cp whenever possible.  (Although there's an argument in another thread about this, I can't help but think you're going to wind up standing with an unnatural grip with the current layout.)

 Merely as a suggestion, I would consider dropping the "mouse buttons" entirely (as you can use other buttons for that purpose, unless you have a specific game in mind?), shift p1 and p2 to be perpendicular to their respective edges, and move the trackball more or less dead center.

[Numbski]

By chance is this a Gauntlet cab that's getting modded?

[TroyO]

LOL, that would be one of the first 'Doh! items that I missed entirely... I never considered the angled idea, kind of like the 2 outside players of a 4 player game.

Nope, it's not Gauntlet... home brew from the ground up.

[TroyO]

You mean kind of like this-ish? (It's a quick one... not precise placement) I figure I'll keep the mouse buttons... easier to nav windows if I need to and they don't seem to be in the way.

[BobA]

I don't know about the angled positions.   The control panel seems to call out for it but any of the angled pos 3 and 4 that I have played feel awkward.   It might just be because they are offset so much but they do not feel right.  Maybe a mockup is worthwhile before comiting to a layout.

[Tahnok]

As Numbski admitted, there's a debate on whether or not to angle the joysticks. I think it's fairly safe to say though that most BYOACers will advise against angling. Personally I would opt for non-angled joysticks, especially on a two player CP.

Looking at the original layout, I recommend centering the trackball if you can, so it doesn't interfere with player one's buttons. Also, unless you have something specific in mind, I would get rid of the trackball buttons, since you're so cramped for space.

[TroyO]

Yeah, I read the thread about the angling debate. I'm not particularly married to that overal CPO shape, by the way. I just figured out my layout square and then said "OK, what of this can I remove because it's not being used."

I would like it to cut in at the back to ~20" though, as that's what I'm hoping to have the main parts width down to.

I might be able to center the trackball if I don't have to worry about buttons. I don't have any particular trackball game in mind, it's just what Ive seen on other layouts.

[TroyO]

OK, here's one without the mousies, and 2 more buttons added to the player rows. I also did the "ergo buttons" but mostly for visual interest.

Thanks all for the input. I think I'm favoring the straight layout for playabilities sake, minus the mouse buttons.

I will be doing a template, but before I take the time to mock it up I was hoping for exactly this kind of feedback for some guidance.

I will be posting the 270/360 combo steering wheel info when I get it done, some folks might find it useful. :-)

[Dmod]

I don't really see the need to angle the controls on a two player CP.  The bottom of your CP shape is similar to a Lusid panel and straight control layouts work just fine on those panels.

This panel layout is similar to mine so I like it a lot better. 

Couple of points though...
(1) Have you considered the shape of the box that this CP is going to sit on top of?  Steep angles will make it difficult to use a rectangular shaped box.
(2) Make sure your trackball is going to fit into the box.  I started out with a layout like this and then realized that the trackball was too low on the panel.  I ended up moving mine up so that it was inline with the rest of the controls.
(3)  Why 8-player buttons in that configuration?  Is this to support consoles?  If not, you don't need more than 6 although many add a 7-th to emulate 4-button Neo/Geo layouts.

[modessitt]

Why not add a spinner in the center directly above the trackball in that last config?  Then you'll be able to play Tempest, etc with the correct controls?

[btp2k2]

OK, here's one without the mousies, and 2 more buttons added to the player rows. I also did the "ergo buttons" but mostly for visual interest.

Thanks all for the input. I think I'm favoring the straight layout for playabilities sake, minus the mouse buttons.

I will be doing a template, but before I take the time to mock it up I was hoping for exactly this kind of feedback for some guidance.

I will be posting the 270/360 combo steering wheel info when I get it done, some folks might find it useful. :-)

I like that one. I like the curve your buttons have.....that said, aside from the trackball buttons, I really liked the first layout with the 7 buttons...looked cool

[TroyO]

This is where I'm at now. The trackball is the one from X-arcade, which is pretty much a 6" square mount. I used the graphic from a 2.25 Happs w/plate which happens to also be 6" so folks can see about where it goes.

I also shortned it a couple of inches and rounded the edges some to make it "sexier". I don't think it really takes away from the functionality of it.

I dropped the 2 buttons... a search found some games that use 8 plus, but pretty much nothing I want to play. 2 of the extra are up top as utility buttons, and if I can I'll put 2 on the sides somewhere for pinball or something. (The encoder has 28 inputs.... 8 used on  2 joysticks, I might as well use the rest!

The joys will be either 2 Magstick Plus's or maybe 1 Plus and 1 Regular magstick. I haven't figured out if the sticks look identical between the two or not. (And they JUST clear the trackball.) I don't really see why I'd need 2 4-way sitchable sticks except appearance, so if they match probably one of each.

So far so good. Any other ideas/suggestions/etc?

[Chris G]

Have you thought about how you would design a CP box to go under that latest design?  That's a lot of contours... I know I couldn't do it.   

[Kaytrim]

TroyO,

Depending on your front end that you choose you might want some admin buttons.  You need at least one to exit the game being played unless you have a plan for a button combo.  I would also suggest that you slide the joystick and buttons down to be more level with the trackball.  If you like Golden Tee or Bowling games you may jam your fingers on the player two joystick.

Also don't think that using a drawing package to design your CP is the last step prior to building.  Do a mock-up in cardboard if at all possible.  This will give you the chance to find little flaws in the design that haven't been discussed here.

TTFN 
Kaytrim

[TroyO]

Egads I keep tweaking it! LOL.

The black buttons at center top are admin buttons, as are 2 other inputs not shown  (Which may be tiny non-arcade buttons) for maybe more advanced admin stuff.... or maybe drop the 2 arcade buttons and just hide away 4 small admin buttons. Actually, exit and Launch CPViewer might be good uses for those two.

The Black/White pair are P1 Start/Coin in1 and P2Start/Coin in2

I will definitly be mocking it up before cutting anything. Actually with 1/8 Hardboard if possible.


As to the contours, yep I have that figured out. :-) It shouldn't actually be that hard.... built up a layer at a time and trimmed with a flush cut bit from a template. Time consuming, perhaps. I actually want it smoother than the drawing.

[Dmod]

As to the contours, yep I have that figured out. :-) It shouldn't actually be that hard.... built up a layer at a time and trimmed with a flush cut bit from a template. Time consuming, perhaps. I actually want it smoother than the drawing.

The concern isn't how to cut the curves on the control panel top.  That's easy.  What shape box is the top going to sit on?  There's no way to draw a rectangular box for your panel that all the controls can fit into.  This means you're going to have to construct a very odd shaped box.  Getting all those angles right could take a bit of effort.

I think you should try redrawing your picture with dashed lines to indicate the box shape that goes UNDER your panel.

[TroyO]

Yep, I got that he was talking about the box that goes under. I have a router table, so it may be easier using that, but it could be done with a regular router too. The plan is to make a master template.. probably 1/8 Hardboard because it's cheap, although I have  a pile of 1/4 MDF that I'll probably use.

Cut the top of the CP from 1/2" MDF, finish by following around the pattern with a flush trim bit. (BTW... double sided carpet tape kicks ass for holding the template to the workpiece.)

Use the master template and a rabbeting bit to make a duplicate template about 3/4" (Maybe 1" if there's room)  smaller than the top, and big enough inside to clear all the controls. Use that to make a layer from 3/4 MDF, and then the flush trim bit to add layers until you have enough height. I'll use pocket holes to hold it in place.
Use the rabbeting bit again to trim for the bottom insert and voila! (Wow, that was long winded for what's actually pretty quick and easy, LOL!)

Anyway... the advantage to that is you get a nice curvy botton to go with the nice curvy top.
Alternatively, if I feel lazy or decide to go that route I coud use the KISS principle and do something like this for the bottom.



The back is double thick because I'm using the cabinet hanging trick with angle cut boards to "hang" the controller.

 

[Dmod]

I get it now.   

Sounds like a cool idea.  I'm looking forward to see how it turns out.

Would you cut the whole outer box template as a solid piece?  Seems like you'd end up with a lot of scrap MDF that way.  Also curious as to how you hid the seams between layers.  Laminate?

I like this layout for your CP.  The only thing you might want to consider relocating are the two black buttons in front of the trackball.  If one of them is an 'Exit' button, you don't want that getting accidentally hit.  Given that your trackball is closer to the lower edge than mine, this might be less of an issue.

I chose to hide a single black admin button to the CP box below the panel, and use this like a 'shift' key to modify the behavior of the P1 and P2 start buttons.  By doing that I eliminated all the admin buttons from the top of the panel.

[TroyO]

I really like the idea of a button on the side to "unlock" admin functions... I could even recess it so it's unlikely to be bumped. (Actually, I could do the same with the ones above the trackball too.) I think I'll wait on the mockup to decide if it's an issue or not.

Using a flush trim bit doesn't leave a whole lot of seam.. after a shot or two of primer I doubt it would be an issue. I use the method a lot for making vacuum forming molds and other stuff for making replica movie props and costume stuff. In any case, it will probably be laminated or veneered anyway.

There won't actually be huge waste doing it that way... you make a basic square from the MDF before trimming so your not wasting big solid chunks... 2 inch-ish strips that cover the perimiter. You end up with more seams but less waste. Plus, I have a few full sheets on hand anyway.

Thanks everyone for the help! Wow, look how much different/better than the first one this is, LOL! I think I'm finally ready for a mock up. :-)

The big showpiece I think will be the 270/360 steering wheel. I don't think anyone has pulled one off yet. I had to halt progress on it as my drill press busted last week.   

The good news is I now have a much nicer one and may actually make some progress this weekend.    (New toys... errr... tools! yay!)

[RobotronNut]

you may want to add a 7th button to your 6-button groups, in thumb position, for games like asteroids, punchout, metal slug, some fighters, etc. ... essentially any game where you use your thumb. (click the link in my signature for an example of this layout.)