Author Topic: Is A TrackBall Neccessary? (Read 4899 times)

fjl · « **on:** January 20, 2007, 06:27:17 am »

I'm still new to cabinet making so please bare with my inane questions.

Anyways, seems like in todays age of cabinet making, the Trackball is a requirement since everyone adds them. But how many of you actually use them? Do they have a use besides playing Centipede? Cause I can't even think what other games might be able to use the trackball.

Also, do they also second as a mouse? I think I heard someone mention that they work as a mouse as well. If so, what buttons are used as the mouse buttons? And wouldn't they interrupt gameplay if those buttons are pressed?

Insights anyone?

clockwork · « **Reply #1 on:** January 20, 2007, 08:01:06 am »

There are a few games that use a trackball. Missile Command, Millipede, and Marble Madness are other classics that come to mind. Golden Tee is quite a popular golf game that uses one. In the MAME gui, look under Control Type -> Trackball to see a list.

They are also used as a mouse. I've seen people use the track ball in addition to two or three buttons for left, right, and middle mouse buttons.

As far as interference, I can't answer that. I haven't built my own control panel yet. I haven't decided yet on what setup I want for my trackball. I'm not really sure it's all that important to have a trackball to use just as a mouse as long as you have a keyboard handy. I'll be building a keyboard shelf, so mine will be easily accessible.

fatfingers · « **Reply #2 on:** January 20, 2007, 09:01:48 am »

MAWS->Deluxe Search->Control->Trackball. Hit the search button.

QuixoteQuest · « **Reply #3 on:** January 20, 2007, 11:16:57 am »

Get a trackball and don't consider a control panel without one. You won't regret it.

In mine there is the Happs 3" trackball that comes with 3 mouse buttons prewired and simply interfaces via USB or PS/2. Easy. If you want to go for a little bling choose the red or blue transluscent and add an LED lighting kit. It will wow your guests.

There are other colors available in transluscent from Happs but you'll have to add an encoder board inorder to interface it to the PC. No big deal to go this way either. Just a little extra wiring effort.

At any rate, the mouse buttons don't interfere at all when you play games. They only work when you are using the trackball as a mouse. I use a frontend which I have disabled the trackball as a mouse in the main frontend navigation. (It is only used as mouse in Windows and as a trackball in games.) But even if you want to keep it functioning as a mouse within MAME or your frontend, once a game begins you will have no problem. The game buttons are always getting mapped to keyboard inputs via an encoder board, and your mouse buttons are not mapped to keyboard inputs so no interference. (And can't be mapped to keyboard input if they are not going to the PC via the keyboard encoder board--like an IPac, for ex). And since you can have three mouse buttons you can assign macros or other functions to your mouse buttons to enhance productivity (though I haven't bothered with it, which leaves my middle mouse button non-functional at the moment).

And the trackball games are fun. The most popular at our house are the Golden Tee golf series (very cool!) but, as mentioned elsewhere in the thread, Missile Command, Centipede, Millipede and Marble Madness are must-have classics to play in your cab. And while not "classic" per se, there are the bowling games that are often well liked by party guests because several, like World Class Bowling, support playing up to 4 players via the same interface. (Golden Tee does too.) And if you are going to have any vigourous play of Golden Tee games you may also want to consider a reinforced mount from Happ.

For me the biggest hangup I had to trackballs are the common, ugly "big black square" mounting plates. They actually don't look bad if your CP is black, but when full CP art is applied I think they are a visual distraction. But my cab manufacturer used a recessed mount so that the CP art could butt up right next to the collar of the trackball. Once they could make it look better than what you see as standard I was sold.

And another little pointer: if you plan to play the golf or bowling games don't put a joystick above it on your CP. You WILL hit them with your hands when playing. (It is common to see 4-way sticks or spinners placed above trackballs in common commercial CP layouts.)

[edited for clarity]

davieboynj · « **Reply #4 on:** January 20, 2007, 11:50:00 am »

I personally think that a spinner is more important than a trackball. It comes with the added benefit of taking up a TON less CP space. If you have a huge CP you could probably do both.

I personally don't like any trackball games.

FrizzleFried · « **Reply #5 on:** January 20, 2007, 12:34:26 pm »

I can say with 100% certainty that the trackball games are the most popular on my horizontal cabinet. When a group of friends comes by it is damn near a requirement to bust out a game of "SHUUZ!"...or "WORLDCLASS BOWLING" or the shuffleboard game I think it's called Shuffle Shot.

There isn't a single controller better suited for group "fun"...

fjl · « **Reply #6 on:** January 20, 2007, 12:48:10 pm »

Quote from: QuixoteQuest on January 20, 2007, 11:16:57 am

Get a trackball and don't consider a control panel without one. You won't regret it.

In mine there is the Happs 3" trackball that comes with 3 mouse buttons prewired and simply interfaces via USB or PS/2. Easy. If you want to go for a little bling choose the red or blue transluscent and add an LED lighting kit. It will wow your guests.

There are other colors available in transluscent from Happs but you'll have to add an encoder board inorder to interface it to the PC. No big deal to go this way either. Just a little extra wiring effort.

At any rate, the mouse buttons don't interfere at all when you play games. They only work when you are using the trackball as a mouse. I use a frontend which I have disabled the trackball as a mouse in the main frontend navigation. (It is only used as mouse in Windows and as a trackball in games.) But even if you want to keep it functioning as a mouse within MAME or your frontend, once a game begins you will have no problem. The game buttons are always getting mapped to keyboard inputs via an encoder board, and your mouse buttons are not mapped to keyboard inputs so no interference. (And can't be mapped to keyboard input if they are not going to the PC via the keyboard encoder board--like an IPac, for ex). And since you can have three mouse buttons you can assign macros or other functions to your mouse buttons to enhance productivity (though I haven't bothered with it, which leaves my middle mouse button non-functional at the moment).

And the trackball games are fun. The most popular at our house are the Golden Tee golf series (very cool!) but, as mentioned elsewhere in the thread, Missile Command, Centipede, Millipede and Marble Madness are must-have classics to play in your cab. And while not "classic" per se, there are the bowling games that are often well liked by party guests because several, like World Class Bowling, support playing up to 4 players via the same interface. (Golden Tee does too.) And if you are going to have any vigourous play of Golden Tee games you may also want to consider a reinforced mount from Happ.

For me the biggest hangup I had to trackballs are the common, ugly "big black square" mounting plates. They actually don't look bad if your CP is black, but when full CP art is applied I think they are a visual distraction. But my cab manufacturer used a recessed mount so that the CP art could butt up right next to the collar of the trackball. Once they could make it look better than what you see as standard I was sold.

And another little pointer: if you plan to play the golf or bowling games don't put a joystick above it on your CP. You WILL hit them with your hands when playing. (It is common to see 4-way sticks or spinners placed above trackballs in common commercial CP layouts.)

[edited for clarity]

Cool. But then where should I put the spinner and the four 4 joystick? Can I see a pic of your CP?

leapinlew · « **Reply #7 on:** January 20, 2007, 01:12:10 pm »

Quote from: FrizzleFried on January 20, 2007, 12:34:26 pm

I can say with 100% certainty that the trackball games are the most popular on my horizontal cabinet. When a group of friends comes by it is damn near a requirement to bust out a game of "SHUUZ!"...or "WORLDCLASS BOWLING" or the shuffleboard game I think it's called Shuffle Shot.

There isn't a single controller better suited for group "fun"...

Same here. If you plan on entertaining people - get a trackball. Street Fighter eventually gets old or too competitive and a game of Shuffleshot makes it fun again.

Loki · « **Reply #8 on:** January 20, 2007, 02:00:00 pm »

Quote from: efjayel on January 20, 2007, 12:48:10 pm

Cool. But then where should I put the spinner and the four 4 joystick? Can I see a pic of your CP?

I think Knievel's CP is a pretty nice example.

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=58647.0

fjl · « **Reply #9 on:** January 20, 2007, 02:05:34 pm »

Looks nice. Now what about the mouse buttons? Am I going to have to hack a mouse to connect the mouse buttons as CP buttons? Or does the trackball come with its own mouse buttons I can connect separately?

By adding the trackball, am I basically replacing the mouse? Or does it work like connecting two of them?

QuixoteQuest · « **Reply #10 on:** January 20, 2007, 03:56:25 pm »

Quote from: efjayel on January 20, 2007, 12:48:10 pm

Cool. But then where should I put the spinner and the four 4 joystick? Can I see a pic of your CP?

Here's my CP. I have no dedicated 4-way as I am using Ultrastiks to stand in for all types of sticks. (Though my manufacturer puts the 4-way off to the left of the asteroids layout for those clients who want a dedicated 4-way.) The three buttons below the spinner are the trackball/mouse buttons.

fjl · « **Reply #11 on:** January 20, 2007, 05:04:41 pm »

Would I need separate buttons next to the four way? And what about the spinner? Doesn't the Golf game require it?

falkensmaze · « **Reply #12 on:** January 20, 2007, 05:08:53 pm »

I am just in from mounting my trakerball (happ 3" high trans blue) on my first cab and i got it underlit already and im in awe!

when u go to such work to build a cab i think you should push the boat out and make it as complete as you can. my next cab will be a simple budget cab but for this one i wanted the whole kabuna i would hate being unable to experience cintipeede missile command the way they were when i was 10

fjl · « **Reply #13 on:** January 20, 2007, 05:21:40 pm »

Which trackball did you get? and how did you connect it?

falkensmaze · « **Reply #14 on:** January 20, 2007, 05:41:28 pm »

Its a happ 3" high trackerball http://www.happcontrols.com/trackballs/560110xx.htm which with little effort connects to the ultimarc optipac. I routed out 2 mm of my cp so the mounting plate sits flush on the cp and im very happy with the result. it is expensive but hey ive spent a fortune on this so far so what the @$%£

fjl · « **Reply #15 on:** January 20, 2007, 05:44:57 pm »

So whats better to get that trackball and the optipac or to simply get a USB/PS2 compatible trackball?

falkensmaze · « **Reply #16 on:** January 20, 2007, 05:52:08 pm »

Forgot to mention my optipac came with usb cable so innterface was no probs i wanted optipac as i will also connect m spinner via that. there is usb trackballs out there but from what ive heard the happ's are the daddys but i cant speak from experience. Altogether the ball, mount plate and optipac cost me just over £100 so it was alot of dosh so you maybe should be sure you want it. i was...

QuixoteQuest · « **Reply #17 on:** January 21, 2007, 12:39:55 pm »

Quote from: efjayel on January 20, 2007, 05:04:41 pm

Would I need separate buttons next to the four way? And what about the spinner? Doesn't the Golf game require it?

If you have an Asteroids layout up near the 4-way you just use the two most left buttons of that, as those are just Player 1 buttons 1&2. (Most 4 ways never use more that one or two buttons). Ultimately if you don't have buttons up near your 4-way, and a game needs them, then you'd have to use Player buttons 1 and/or 2 from your player one button cluster, which depending how situated _can_ get you arm-tied. (Using the main player 1 button cluster is what you do for trackball games like Golden Tee, and it works fine. In the case of my panel I can also use the Asteroids buttons and/or Pinball buttons for games like Golden Tee as they are just truly dupes of the main player buttons laid out differently just for Asteroids or pinball games.)

FrizzleFried · « **Reply #18 on:** January 21, 2007, 12:44:35 pm »

I have found TORNADO TERRY to be one of the best places to pick up a good priced HAPP 3" trackball. I think they are going for $82.99 for the USB version....and yes, there are connections for up to 3 mouse buttons (you have to supply your own buttons of course).

www.tornadoterrys.com

Tell `em "FrizzleFried" sent ya.

fjl · « **Reply #19 on:** January 22, 2007, 03:02:33 am »

Cool. Now what about the spinner? Can the trackball work as a spinner? And should I even get a spinner?

Minwah · « **Reply #20 on:** January 22, 2007, 05:00:16 am »

Quote from: efjayel on January 22, 2007, 03:02:33 am

Cool. Now what about the spinner? Can the trackball work as a spinner? And should I even get a spinner?

Yes a trackball will work for spinner games.

If you don't know whether to get a spinner then you probably don't need one. However if you ever play Tempest or Blasteroids with a spinner then you'll wish you got one

FrizzleFried · « **Reply #21 on:** January 22, 2007, 09:48:24 am »

To determine if you need a spinner...

Do you play:

Racing games
Arkanoid type games
Tempest or Major Havoc

Then you need a spinner.

If not...then likely you can do without.

If you determine you need one...take a look at the Turbo Twist 2 over at www.groovygamegear.com.

MAME TIME · « **Reply #22 on:** January 22, 2007, 11:42:53 am »

Bite the bullet and pick up a ps2/usb track ball with the mouse buttons, its worth having and its simple to install, acts like a mouse in windows and people will love playing golden tee and my fav Crystal Castle, you wouldn't believe how many people i got hooked on that game. One more thing i dont understand the concept of the ugly looking mouting square assembly for trackballs, try and stay away from it. It depends how orignal you want your cab to look, i have my mouse buttons (black) which are hidden on each side of the panel, plus they act like pinball buttons for certain games. Say no franken panels

ahofle · « **Reply #23 on:** January 22, 2007, 11:57:33 am »

Quote from: MAME TIME on January 22, 2007, 11:42:53 am

One more thing i dont understand the concept of the ugly looking mouting square assembly for trackballs, try and stay away from it.

Ugly looking? Should be completely hidden after routing a recess and covering with CP art. So out of curiosity how do you recommend mounting a Happs trackball without a mounting plate?

MAME TIME · « **Reply #24 on:** January 22, 2007, 03:19:07 pm »

On my panel i just cut to fit in place, next made up some brackets to hold from the bottom, took apart the assembly and screwed it once i had the proper hight i wanted. I guess what i meant to say is if your going to go out and get the "mounting square" try and keep it under the art

QuixoteQuest · « **Reply #25 on:** January 22, 2007, 03:21:35 pm »

Quote from: efjayel on January 22, 2007, 03:02:33 am

Cool. Now what about the spinner? Can the trackball work as a spinner? And should I even get a spinner?

If you have some of your budget to give, get a spinner. Good ones are a bit pricey. I love the SlikStik Tornado I have--very solid build, top quality feel with a responsive spin that goes on forever. I love Tempest, Blasteroids and the Arkanoid series. I didn't do a CP arrangement perfect for Discs of Tron, since I don't have a Top Fire stick or flight stick, but we'll play where my son is working the left joystick and fire button while I work the targetting spinner. What a cool game. I also configured the spinner to work for racing games like Pole Position. Not as great as a dedicated steering wheel, but more responsive to control than a joystick.

If you must choose one or the other I'd go with a trackball, for all the reasons I stated in my earlier post. But a quality spinner is a true, tactile pleasure to play.

fjl · « **Reply #26 on:** January 22, 2007, 06:06:58 pm »

What are the dimensions for the spinner? i want to try and do a mock add in for my 3d model control panel. Happs doesn't seem to have the dimensions of the spinner. At least none that I saw.

QuixoteQuest · « **Reply #27 on:** January 22, 2007, 10:22:35 pm »

Quote from: efjayel on January 22, 2007, 06:06:58 pm

What are the dimensions for the spinner? i want to try and do a mock add in for my 3d model control panel. Happs doesn't seem to have the dimensions of the spinner. At least none that I saw.

My Tornado Spinner is 1.75" diameter. Stands about an 1-1/8" tall. It's the skirted style . Other Tornado knob styles or manufacturers will vary some.

fjl · « **Reply #28 on:** January 22, 2007, 10:41:22 pm »

Thanks but I also need the dimensions for the working parts that go underneath the cp. Unless they are smaller than the knobs diameter then I have all the dimensions I need.

whynotpizza · « **Reply #29 on:** January 23, 2007, 11:10:27 pm »

A spinner is a must for sure. Checkout a company called Apache Controls.

www.apachecontrols.com

They offer the Blackhawk Push/Pull spinner, which is top notch! Their website has all sorts of technical specs on the product to help in your design quest.

http://www.apachecontrols.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=1

Good luck with your project.

David

leapinlew · « **Reply #30 on:** January 23, 2007, 11:15:18 pm »

Quote from: efjayel on January 22, 2007, 10:41:22 pm

Thanks but I also need the dimensions for the working parts that go underneath the cp. Unless they are smaller than the knobs diameter then I have all the dimensions I need.

You need to do a little more research (read). There are several types of spinners and they are not all created equal.

fjl · « **Reply #31 on:** January 23, 2007, 11:39:13 pm »

You seem to know a lot, Leapinlew, which spinner would you recommend? The one the above guy posted costs an arm and a leg. And not to be superficial, but the knob is ugly looking. Hopefully it can be changed. Not sure what the purpose of push/pull on the spinner is for though.

mvolke1 · « **Reply #32 on:** January 24, 2007, 05:50:50 pm »

I have the Ulimarc 2.25 inch trackball and it works really good. You have to have the Ipac interface with it, but that is a peace of cake.

I highly, highly recommend getting one. I would never build a cab without one. I think someone mentioned earlier, but I'll say it again - trackball games are on some of the most fun multi-player games like Golden Tee, Shuuz, Krazy Bowl, and so on.

Gotta get one.

Zeppo · « **Reply #33 on:** January 24, 2007, 06:47:59 pm »

The push/pull spinner is for Discs of Tron.

If you get a Turbo Twist 2, they are the same size as a standard button.
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=60502.0
read all about it.

I made my own spinner from a mouse hack:
http://www.doughansen.net/arcade/spinner.htm

I used the lid from a bottle of Nestle Quick Chocolate Milk for the knob.

Good Luck.

fjl · « **Reply #34 on:** January 24, 2007, 11:57:06 pm »

Quote from: mvolke1 on January 24, 2007, 05:50:50 pm

I have the Ulimarc 2.25 inch trackball and it works really good. You have to have the Ipac interface with it, but that is a peace of cake.

I highly, highly recommend getting one. I would never build a cab without one. I think someone mentioned earlier, but I'll say it again - trackball games are on some of the most fun multi-player games like Golden Tee, Shuuz, Krazy Bowl, and so on.

Gotta get one.

Don't you mean the opti-pac? And would it be more beneficial to get the USB trackball instead? This way I can completely cut out the whole opti-pac part?

Kaytrim · « **Reply #35 on:** January 25, 2007, 10:21:04 am »

I have a Happ 3" USB trackball on my cab and it works fine. I also have a mouse hack for my Oscar spinner. The spinner guts take up quite a bit of space, about the same as my joystick mounting plate.

If I were to do it again now I'd get the TT2 from Groovy Game Gear with the OptiWiz. The spinner takes up the same space as a standard button. The OptiWiz does the same work as the OptiPak you are looking at and can receive input for the X, Y, & the Z axis. It also has connections for mouse buttons. Then I would get a standard Happ trackball and connect it to the OptiWiz. One USB connection for two controls.

As far as mouseing around in windows I have a keyboard and mouse in a tray below the control panel.

The choice is really yours. All we can do is tell you how we did things, how we would redo things. So quit waffling and get building.

mvolke1 · « **Reply #36 on:** January 25, 2007, 11:51:52 am »

Quote from: efjayel on January 24, 2007, 11:57:06 pm

Quote from: mvolke1 on January 24, 2007, 05:50:50 pm
I have the Ulimarc 2.25 inch trackball and it works really good. You have to have the Ipac interface with it, but that is a peace of cake.

I highly, highly recommend getting one. I would never build a cab without one. I think someone mentioned earlier, but I'll say it again - trackball games are on some of the most fun multi-player games like Golden Tee, Shuuz, Krazy Bowl, and so on.

Gotta get one.

Don't you mean the opti-pac? And would it be more beneficial to get the USB trackball instead? This way I can completely cut out the whole opti-pac part?

You are right. I did mean the Opti Pac. The optipac can handle a couple of mouse buttons, and you don't get that with a USB trackball. You can hook a couple buttons on your CP to be the left and right mouse buttons. It knows to shut these off during game play.

fjl · « **Reply #37 on:** January 25, 2007, 05:40:37 pm »

Are you sure the USB trackball doesn't support Mouse buttons?

Check out this link,
http://happcontrols.com/trackballs/565600xx2.htm
it does mention it supports 3 buttons. Although it doesn't say if it mimics them as mouse buttons though. Do you know this from personal experience or just assuming?

QuixoteQuest · « **Reply #38 on:** January 25, 2007, 08:48:30 pm »

Quote from: efjayel on January 25, 2007, 05:40:37 pm

Are you sure the USB trackball doesn't support Mouse buttons?

Check out this link,
http://happcontrols.com/trackballs/565600xx2.htm
it does mention it supports 3 buttons. Although it doesn't say if it mimics them as mouse buttons though. Do you know this from personal experience or just assuming?

Yeah the Happ 3" USB/PS2 comes ready to support three mouse buttons. You have to supply your own buttons, but the wiring is ready to go.

fjl · « **Reply #39 on:** January 25, 2007, 11:31:54 pm »

And can those buttons be configured into mame or are they like a normal Mouse where they cannot be mapped as arcade buttons?

u_rebelscum · « **Reply #40 on:** January 26, 2007, 12:19:29 pm »

Quote from: efjayel on January 25, 2007, 11:31:54 pm

And can those buttons be configured into mame

yes

Quote

are they like a normal Mouse

yes

Quote

where they cannot be mapped as arcade buttons?

This is wrong. Don't pause the game while remapping (& enable mice).

QuixoteQuest · « **Reply #41 on:** January 26, 2007, 12:28:01 pm »

Quote from: efjayel on January 25, 2007, 11:31:54 pm

And can those buttons be configured into mame or are they like a normal Mouse where they cannot be mapped as arcade buttons?

I haven't figured out how to use the mouse buttons as MAME/emulator/arcade buttons, because they are not connected to the IPac. But you can ascribe any function or macro you can normally do to three button mouse. From reading u_rebelscum's reply I can't tell whether he's saying there is a workaround so that you can use the trackball/mouse buttons as arcade buttons.

ahofle · « **Reply #42 on:** January 26, 2007, 12:46:42 pm »

Quote from: QuixoteQuest on January 26, 2007, 12:28:01 pm

I haven't figured out how to use the mouse buttons as MAME/emulator/arcade buttons, because they are not connected to the IPac. But you can ascribe any function or macro you can normally do to three button mouse. From reading u_rebelscum's reply I can't tell whether he's saying there is a workaround so that you can use the trackball/mouse buttons as arcade buttons.

It's not a workaround, you just select the input you want to change, press enter, and then press the mouse button you want to map. What u_rebel was saying is that if you forgot to enable the mouse for that game, then pressing the mouse button will not register.

u_rebelscum · « **Reply #43 on:** January 26, 2007, 02:25:06 pm »

Quote from: QuixoteQuest on January 26, 2007, 12:28:01 pm

From reading u_rebelscum's reply I can't tell whether he's saying there is a workaround so that you can use the trackball/mouse buttons as arcade buttons.

Sorry, let me rephrase:

Quote

[Can] a normal Mouse [button] ... be mapped as arcade buttons [in mame]?

Yes.
Step 1: Enable mice in mame.
Step 2: If the it controls a different player or game button then you want, remap. Do not pause the game while remapping.

For more info on remapping, look at the mameFAQ [urlhttp://www.mame.net/mamefaq.html#h03]#h03[/url] for a step by step howto with pictures.


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