UltraStik 360 playing Wizard of Wor

[rockin_rick]

Can the U360 be used to play Wizard Of Wor like it was intended with the 'dual switch' joystick?  I'm guessing that the only way is to use it in analog mode and have mame convert the analog into the correct 'movements' of the joystick - will this work?

I guess the real question is does mame convert analog joystick values into correct wizard of wor movements?  AFAIK, mame does use a '2nd button' hack that will allow you to use a normal joystick and button 2 to kinda emulate the joystick, but that sounds like a pain...

(In case anyone doesn't know, in Wizard of Wor, a light push on the stick is look in direction pushed, while more of a push (larger stick throw) will move the character in that direction.)

Thanks,
Rick

[leapinlew]

(In case anyone doesn't know, in Wizard of Wor, a light push on the stick is look in direction pushed, while more of a push (larger stick throw) will move the character in that direction.)

I didn't know this...

[NoOne=NBA=]

I don't think the Ultrastik can be made to work properly, in that you can only map each cell of the grid to 1 of 8 directions.
There's no provision that I know of to map the cells to direction + a button.

Andy may be able to fix that if you ask him though.

[Donkey_Kong]

Can the U360 be used to play Wizard Of Wor like it was intended with the 'dual switch' joystick?  I'm guessing that the only way is to use it in analog mode and have mame convert the analog into the correct 'movements' of the joystick - will this work?

I guess the real question is does mame convert analog joystick values into correct wizard of wor movements?  AFAIK, mame does use a '2nd button' hack that will allow you to use a normal joystick and button 2 to kinda emulate the joystick, but that sounds like a pain...

(In case anyone doesn't know, in Wizard of Wor, a light push on the stick is look in direction pushed, while more of a push (larger stick throw) will move the character in that direction.)

Thanks,
Rick

Well I'm not a 'wizard of war' champion or anything. I played it a few times when I was like 6 or 7. I loved the game though what little I got to play it.

Fast forward 24 years to a couple months ago. I fired up Wizard of War a few times on the Ultra Stik 360's. I have to say that you need to try it in 4-way mode. I would say do not play the game in analog mode. The "LOOK" you are talking about can definitely be achieved with the U360 in 4-way mode. I scored really well on the game with my U360. try 4-way and please report back after a few rounds...

BTW: I also have the round restrictors installed on my U360.



 

[rockin_rick]

I don't yet have my u360's, so I can't try it out.  Are you saying that with your u360's in normal 4way mode, that you can turn in place without moving by a quick push in a direction?  Thus the u360 really doesn't have anything to do with it, it's more the quick push that does it?

FWIW - I attached a pic of the Wizard of Wor joystick.

Rick

[TOK]

How about that... I've played original Wizard of Wor machines dozens of times, and never noticed that. Maybe because the sticks were so whipped on all of them, the addition of the extra leaf wasn't noticeable (possibly even that they were swapped for standard leaf sticks).

Thanks for the picture, which makes it totally clear how it worked!

[Kremmit]

You have to push really, really lightly.  If you don't know that function's there, you'll never notice it unless you just have a naturally delicate touch.  I yank the stick around (ha ha) pretty hard, it's hard for me to do the "look" even when I'm trying.  Maybe some leaf adjustment would make it easier, I've only ever played it on one machine, and I don't know how well the leaves on it are tweaked.

[Donkey_Kong]

Guys-

I sound like a broken record...I know, I know.

The U360 in 4-way for "Wizard of Wor", makes the "look" really Ultra-Simple and quickly becomes second nature while playing.

HINT: Another thing that I did is took my 1st cube of boxes in my U360 4-way map and essentially shut the input off for the 1st few degrees of stick movement. This makes my stick less sensetive and requires a little more throw before 'input' & I think allows for fewer errors in games such as W.O.W. as well as others. This re-map could also be what makes the W.O.W. "look" execution a lot more succesful...IMO of course.



 

[u_rebelscum]

Another thing, mame does NOT emulate the "look switch" inputs currently.  AFAICT, there is no place in the code for these inputs, and no place that fakes them either.  So even if you had the original controller, you'd still have the same problems you currently do (or don't).

I don't know if that means the one in mame is a bootleg, or that the original didn't need the special joystick (but played better with) and mame should be edited to more accurately emulate the original controllers.

I don't see an obvious place in the code where the inputs go, don't have schematics of the board, and never played the game with the original controls, so won't even try to edit this driver.  Does anyone know where schematics are?  (I thought this was discussed here before, but can't find the thread.)

[NoOne=NBA=]

The driver does emulate the look/walk function.
It just doesn't emulate it correctly.

It uses P1-B2 to force a look-only movement.
The original joystick turned in a given direction when the joystick hit the first switch, and then walked in a direction when the second switch engaged--which would lead me to believe that the P1-B2 input that is emulated was inverted by the original hardware, or was intentionally inverted by the MAME devs to make the game playable.

[u_rebelscum]

The driver does emulate the look/walk function.
It just doesn't emulate it correctly.

It uses P1-B2 to force a look-only movement.
The original joystick turned in a given direction when the joystick hit the first switch, and then walked in a direction when the second switch engaged--which would lead me to believe that the P1-B2 input that is emulated was inverted by the original hardware, or was intentionally inverted by the MAME devs to make the game playable.

Ahh, let me check....  Yup, inverted in the mame driver.  P1 & P2 Button2 are the only switches listed as "active high" while the rest are "active low", which does not happen on the same hardware.

Interesting, the four outer switches on the controller were wired in parallel to the same input pin in the MB.  I stand corrected.

If you map P1-B2 to ["Left NOT x" OR "Right NOT x" OR "Up NOT x" OR "Down NOT x"], and make the outermost contacts on the entire original joystick connect to the "x" input, it will function properly.
That will make the LOOK signal active only when the "x" input is NOT pressed.

IOW, if you keep the original wiring, you'll have to do the above mapping.

If you re-wire the original so each switch is hooked to a different pin in your encoder, you'll have to map a little differently: replace "x" with the far direction.  "shortLeft NOT farLeft" OR "shortRight NOT farRight" etc.


Back to the original question:
I don't think you can do "short left" / "far left" as binary switches on the us360, and while us360 also does analog, mame converts to binary at one (but changable) universal level. 

You might be able to custom map the us360 in 4-way mode but change the close in squares to diagonals. 

Something like:
 *, N, N, N, N, N, N, N, *
W, *, N, N, N, N, N, *, E
W, W, *,Ne,Ne,Ne, *, E, E
W, W,nW, C, C, C,sE, E, E
W, W,nW, C, C, C,sE, E, E
W, W,nW, C, C, C,sE, E, E
W, W, *,Sw,Sw,Sw,*, E, E
W, *, S, S, S, S, S, *, E
 *, S, S, S, S, S, S, S, *

Then map button2 to "up AND right" OR "right AND down" OR "down AND left" OR "left AND up",
up to "up NOT left",
right to "right NOT up",
down to "down NOT right",
left to "left NOT down".

[Donkey_Kong]

U-rebel-

Looks like you have some time and effort into that analogy. However, I think that all of this could be somewhat overkill IMO. I think that we may all be guilty of a couple of things here...

A. We could possibly be scaring people away from the U360 by all of the HIGH-TECH talk here. I mean all that work just to play WOW?

B. We could be scaring some people from ever wanting to try Wizard of Wor.


Correct me if I'm wrong and I have nothing against going for 100% true authenticity here...but let's not over do it. Wizard of Wor is a fairly basic game. It is a 4-way with a bonus of a look function. YOU CAN GET THE LOOK FUNCTION in stock 4 WAY U360 MODE. I know you can as I have done it!!

I'm guessing 97% of the users would have a hard time setting up your Mame/U360 mod setting scenario. I for one would be part of the 97%. Dang please don't take this the wrong way. I think part of my whine here is that you are maybe to smart for me and maybe a few others...so in a way this is kudos to you...Dumb people follow my way...Smart people should give WOW the U360 Rebel delight!!

 

 

 

[ahofle]

I don't think anyone is overdoing anything.  The original poster asked if it was possible to play WOW "like it was intended with the 'dual switch' joystick".  I found u_rebel's and NoOne's insight to be fascinating (I never knew of the extra switches either).  I hope someone takes the time to come up with a mapping for that game. 

[NoOne=NBA=]

We could possibly be scaring people away from the U360 by all of the HIGH-TECH talk here. I mean all that work just to play WOW?

It will PLAY fine as-is, but the high-tech talk is what this place is all about.
If we don't talk about stuff because it may scare someone who doesn't understand it, there won't be anything on here but basic stuff.

Readers just need to follow the "if you don't understand it, you probably don't need it" philosophy.
Nobody here NEEDS to build multi-layer laminated CP's either, but there are a few threads on how to do it should someone WANT to.
This board lets those who are more knowledgeable than others trade ideas too.

YOU CAN GET THE LOOK FUNCTION in stock 4 WAY U360 MODE. I know you can as I have done it!!

I don't think you are getting a true look function out of the stick.
I would bet you are pressing a direction, and then letting go, which WILL turn your character without moving it.
If you are really activating the look function, then your character will not move, even though you keep holding the joystick where it is.

The look function is helpful when you get to the higher levels because it allows you to turn quickly and fire, without having your character MOVE, and become vulnerable.
Truthfully, most people never even used it in the arcade.
You have to have a really subtle touch on the stick to keep from passing that position and hitting the move one.

[NoOne=NBA=]

URebel,

I've tried some offshoots of that mapping, but haven't ever been able to get it to work properly.
The problems I see with it are that as soon as you go off a cardinal direction, the driver thinks you are hitting the look button, but ceases to see the direction button.

The driver, and quite probably the game itself, seems to act funny on some other stuff as well.
If you have a wall above you and below you, and are aimed left, LEFT, UP, and DOWN will all make you move left, until you hit a spot that will allow the up/down turn.
At that point your character will turn in that direction.

That's why the look function is important.
It keeps your character from moving into a position that won't allow it to turn in a given direction.
If you get in the lower-right corner, and use the look function, it will let your character turn up/left without moving, and fire in that direction quickly.
If you don't use the look function, your character will move up slightly when you hit up, and then won't be able to turn left when you need it to, without going through down first.

You can see this happen if you tap up, then tap left.
The first time you tap left, your character will turn down, and move down a hair.
The next time you tap left, the character will turn left.

[rockin_rick]

Thanks for all the replies.  I suppose that my original question should have been more like "will an analog joystick and the drivers in mame mimic the original wizard of wor control".  Obviously that is no.  It would be ideal if the driver in mame could support an analog control to mimic this control, sort of like sinistar and other 49-way games do (if I understand that correctly).  Sinistar's control is listed as stick.  And with Pigskin, it's control is has two entries, one is stick and the other is joy8way.  I'm ASSUMING that with pigskin, since there is only one joystick control and two entry's, it is an either/or kind of setup and mame can use either, is this correct?  Perhaps this setup could be used for wizard of wor to support accurate controls with an analog stick and also support a normal 4 way.

I don't know if there is much demand for that or desire for a mame dev to implement that, though.  It would make the u360 and other analog controls make wizard of wor play as intended.  And I suppose that there could be an argument for that based on mame's intentions to faithfully replicate the original hardware.  I do not have the skills to do this myself, though.  (I don't expect any mame dev to do this, and I appreciate all that they have already done.)

Rick

[Kremmit]

(I thought this was discussed here before, but can't find the thread.)

Maybe you were thinking of this bit I put in the PowerMAME "feature request" section, back when that seemed like a going concern:
 
http://www.powermame.com/pmwiki.php?n=Features.WizardOfWorInputHack

Looks like I may have had some of it wrong, if you guys are right about the switches being inverted in the MAME driver, but the gist of it is there.

[NoOne=NBA=]

Maybe you were thinking of this bit I put in the PowerMAME "feature request" section, back when that seemed like a going concern:

No, there was a real discussion about it because I remember asking URebel if there was a way to have an input only equal NOT-x while I was trying to hook up the WOW stick I built.
I just remembered what I eventually came up with to work around that.

Disregard my prior mappings in this thread.
The real mappings for the original joystick are much simpler.
You need to tie one line of your encoder to ground to do it though.


Let's assume that you tie the "A" key to ground, and have the outer leafs all hooked in parallel to "B".

You need to map:
UP=UP
Down=DOWN
Right=RIGHT
Left=LEFT
P1-B2=A NOT B.

That will force the look button to be held down any time that the stick is not pushed far enough to hit the outer leaf switches.


I'm going to delete my earlier mappings in this thread to avoid confusion.
I just tested these mappings to make sure they worked properly, and they do.

[NoOne=NBA=]

I can get it working with a two-stage digital stick, but I can't get this to work at all simulating the inputs from an A-D converter like the U360.

Anybody else have any luck with this?

[Kremmit]

Let's assume that you tie the "A" key to ground, and have the outer leafs all hooked in parallel to "B".

You need to map:
UP=UP
Down=DOWN
Right=RIGHT
Left=LEFT
P1-B2=A NOT B.

That will force the look button to be held down any time that the stick is not pushed far enough to hit the outer leaf switches.

Genius!

[RandyT]

It's amazing what one will adapt to when playing a game without ever consciously knowing what makes it tick.

I used to play WOW a lot!  And I do recall this ability to stand in place and "rotate" without moving.  I have never seen an original WOW stick to understand why it is so difficult to play in MAME, but it makes perfect sense now.

The question I have is are there more oddballs like this floating around?  Is WOW unique in this regard?

Thanks,
RandyT

[u_rebelscum]

I can get it working with a two-stage digital stick, but I can't get this to work at all simulating the inputs from an A-D converter like the U360.

Anybody else have any luck with this?

Yes.  I mapped as I mentioned above.  Attached are a picture of the special WOW us360 map and the mame wow.cfg I used.  I added the red color to the picture just to show the funny "4way", and remember to remove the .txt extention to the cfg file.

Just to note, I tried mapping the inner ring to the diags also, but I looked back on the rebound too often.  You might want to test that, or extend the look diagonals further out.  Also, I never played this game in the arcades, and I get slightly better scores if I use button 2 to look.  IOW, someone who played this in the arcades with a us360 try this and report, please.

Let's assume that you tie the "A" key to ground, and have the outer leafs all hooked in parallel to "B".

I've heard of problems with a constantly closed switch with some encoders and/or motherboards.  Otherwise, the easy way to go.

...Disregard my prior mappings in this thread.
The real mappings for the original joystick are much simpler....
I'm going to delete my earlier mappings in this thread to avoid confusion.
I just tested these mappings to make sure they worked properly, and they do.

I'm leaving mine in because they answer the original post.  It does add confusion to those with the original hardware, true, but removing them and only sticking with your final solution adds confusion to those with us360s.

[NoOne=NBA=]

Yes.  I mapped as I mentioned above.

If you hit "short-up" repeatedly as you come out of the starting box, your character doesn't creep up the screen?
Simulating that mapping I get a creeping condition that I don't get when using a separate key for the look.

[Kremmit]

The question I have is are there more oddballs like this floating around?  Is WOW unique in this regard?

As far as I know, it's unique. 

In fact, WOW is unique or unusual in a lot of ways, now that I think about it.  It was one of the first (the first?) talking games.  It's also unusual in that it's a  2 player simultaneous 4-way game.  And  it's odd that the control panel has player 1 on the right and player 2 on the left.

[rockin_rick]

Yes.  I mapped as I mentioned above.

If you hit "short-up" repeatedly as you come out of the starting box, your character doesn't creep up the screen?
Simulating that mapping I get a creeping condition that I don't get when using a separate key for the look.

I also don't think that this mapping/cfg is working correctly.  I set the map to what Robin showed, verified that it was working correctly and then copied over the wow.cfg file provided.  I also get the creeping that NoOne=NBA= mentioned.  When I use P1B2, it will do the look without creeping, but with the u360 it doesn't do it the same way and the character creeps.  I tried mapping the stick to ALL diagonals which should have the effect of only allowing the character to look and not walk, but he still walks.  It does kind of act wierd.  Robin - did yours work correctly?

Thanks,
Rick

[rockin_rick]

If you use F2 to go into the service mode, it tells you if the look is "on" or not when you move the joystick.  I tried this and found that the u360 with Robin's map and cfg did the look for all directions BUT up.  Looking at his cfg code, I think that I found the error.  He has:

<port type="P1_BUTTON2" mask="16" index="27" defvalue="0">
                <newseq type="standard">
                    KEYCODE_LALT OR JOYCODE_1_BUTTON2 OR JOYCODE_1_UP JOYCODE_1_LEFT OR JOYCODE_1_RIGHT JOYCODE_1_DOWN OR JOYCODE_1_DOWN JOYCODE_1_LEFT OR JOYCODE_1_LEFT JOYCODE_1_UP
                </newseq>
            </port>


I think that it should be:

<port type="P1_BUTTON2" mask="16" index="27" defvalue="0">
                <newseq type="standard">
                    KEYCODE_LALT OR JOYCODE_1_BUTTON2 OR JOYCODE_1_UP JOYCODE_1_RIGHT OR JOYCODE_1_RIGHT JOYCODE_1_DOWN OR JOYCODE_1_DOWN JOYCODE_1_LEFT OR JOYCODE_1_LEFT JOYCODE_1_UP
                </newseq>
            </port>

The service mode check then reports correctly.  This change should also be applied for P2.  I think that this may explain why I was able to walk when the map was set to all diagonals.

However, I still get creep with the joystick in look mode that I don't get with the button.  I wonder if using the stick there is just a tiny bit of time when up is applied before the button kicks in and applies the look.  You wouldn't get this if you are holding the button as you would already have it down before moving the stick.   

Rick

[rockin_rick]

The game reports "move" (yes/no) and "direction" (U/D/L/R).  When centered, move=yes (AKA PxB2 is not pushed) and direction=no.  As soon as you move the stick, move=no and direction=x.  Once you get past the diagonals (deactivating PxB2), then move=yes and direction=x.

Can you make center (no joy input) activate PxB2 so that move=no when centered?  I'll see if I can figure it out..

Rick

[Naru]

I noticed a little debate here.
Please, by all means you smart people continue to
post all your brilliance!
That way the dumb people *ME*
can learn more things.
That's the main reason I joined this place
after reading page after page for a year.
I've learned a lot.
Thanks to everyone.

[rockin_rick]

Ahh, let me check....  Yup, inverted in the mame driver.  P1 & P2 Button2 are the only switches listed as "active high" while the rest are "active low", which does not happen on the same hardware.

Is it possible to un-invert this and recompile so that button2 has to be held to move?  I wonder if this will help solve the creeping that I get when using the custom maps/inputs?

Rick

[NoOne=NBA=]

Can you make center (no joy input) activate PxB2 so that move=no when centered?

From reading the documentation, it didn't look like you could map anything except one of the eight directions.
It might be possible for Andy to have the firmware/software altered to allow this though.

[AE35]

The question I have is are there more oddballs like this floating around?  Is WOW unique in this regard?

As far as I know, it's unique. 

In fact, WOW is unique or unusual in a lot of ways, now that I think about it.  It was one of the first (the first?) talking games.  It's also unusual in that it's a  2 player simultaneous 4-way game.  And  it's odd that the control panel has player 1 on the right and player 2 on the left.

I love the game, always have, but talking??? I Never heard it talk..

[NoOne=NBA=]

It talks almost the whole time you're playing it, and alot in the attract mode.

[rockin_rick]

(Samples required for speech if you are using MAME.)

I recently read a post by someone that said that Wizard Of Wor has 3 seperate volume controls, one for left player, one for right, and one for speech.  I'd think that this would maybe be another unique feature.  It also has three speakers.  Perhaps your speech volume was turned down if you don't remember hearing speech on an original machine...


Rick

[AE35]

Oh my god....I started out by playing it on the C64, and then I got back to it
when MAME came around!!!

Talking??

I have to go now *runs to find samples*

[AE35]

*runs back again*

I got the samples from mame.net.

Can this be true?? they sound horrible!!! I don't like the game anymore, it's
annoying as hell.

[Flamesuit ON]

[NoOne=NBA=]

I just remembered what I thought someone might want to try for this.
There's an output mode that lets you hook the stick directly to a keyboard encoder.

I'm not sure where that output kicks in, with respect to the map, but it could be used to create a move condition if you map the analog output to the direction, and the digital outputs to an encoder terminal, and use a NOT statement to make the game look any time one of the digital outputs is NOT pressed.
This would again require that you be able to jumper an input to tie down for the look function, but it should work.

[scotthh]

Using rebelscum's mapping and cfg (with the change suggested by rick), the game plays exactly as described earlier in the thread. In the service mode I see "No" next to "Move" as I move the U360 slightly in the direction I'm pressing, and I see the direction. As I move the stick further, "Move" switches to "Yes".

During the game, when I move the stick slightly in a direction, the character turns in that direction but there is no creep at all.

rebel and rick:

[rockin_rick]

You don't get creeping?  If I push up just enough to activate a look up then back to center then back to look up (repeat) it will creep up a pixel or two per time.  I can map the entire stick to all diagonals (as to ensure that look is only activated) and it will creep.  Holding down B2, no creep.

Rick

[scotthh]

You don't get creeping?  If I push up just enough to activate a look up then back to center then back to look up (repeat) it will creep up a pixel or two per time.  I can map the entire stick to all diagonals (as to ensure that look is only activated) and it will creep.  Holding down B2, no creep.

Rick

I just pushed up enough to activate a look and held it there, my character didn't move for a long time. Unfortunately, I'm at work... I will try it the way you described over the weekend and let you know.

[scotthh]

You don't get creeping?  If I push up just enough to activate a look up then back to center then back to look up (repeat) it will creep up a pixel or two per time.  I can map the entire stick to all diagonals (as to ensure that look is only activated) and it will creep.
Rick

Rick, sorry for the delay, I zoned out about this. I tried it as you described. Going back and forth: look, center, look, center. I do get the creep you described. I then changed the map to all diagonals, and by going look, center, look, center, look, I could move my man with the creep.

As I mentioned before, I don't get creep if I look and hold. Not that you would in a game, but if you press B2 look, release the joystick and release B2, then press B2 and look again, do you get the creep? This would at least explain the difference.