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Author Topic: Would Like Opinion on New CP Layout  (Read 3475 times)

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acevedor2

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Would Like Opinion on New CP Layout
« on: December 30, 2006, 08:02:04 pm »
Hey guys.  I am just about to start construction on this and I have given it a lot of thought.  I would like to hear any potential issues objections and of you might have or see in the design.  Of course, if you absolutely love it, that's ok to hear too:)

Thanks!
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Re: Would Like Opinion on New CP Layout
« Reply #1 on: December 30, 2006, 10:06:34 pm »
The spinner on top of the trackball is not a good idea.  If you play any game like Golden Tee Golf, or Bowling, you'll hit your fingers (or a guest will).

I would move the spinner to where the TRACKBALL 2 button is.

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Re: Would Like Opinion on New CP Layout
« Reply #2 on: December 30, 2006, 10:19:49 pm »
I am a little confused?  I haven't ever played those games, but would obviously like to make sure I can in the future.  Are you saying that the player would hit their fingers on the spinner by using the trackball?  Also, I am not sure how I would move the spinner to where the trackball 2 button is - I don't see how it would fit.  Which one are you thinking is the trackball 2 button? Thanks!
Cheers.
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Re: Would Like Opinion on New CP Layout
« Reply #3 on: December 30, 2006, 11:16:29 pm »
I think it's too small for that layout.

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Re: Would Like Opinion on New CP Layout
« Reply #4 on: December 30, 2006, 11:23:29 pm »
Thanks Tranq.  I had reservations as well initially, but I printed it out and at 33.5 inches by 17.5 inches it is actually pretty big.  Surprisingly each control seems to have plenty of room.  Thanks for the feedback!  Cheers!
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Re: Would Like Opinion on New CP Layout
« Reply #5 on: December 31, 2006, 12:26:01 am »
I will second that comment about the spinner.  I have a slikstick classic panel and while I love it I have gotten smashed fingers/knuckles a few times playing golden tee.  Trust me it hurts.
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Re: Would Like Opinion on New CP Layout
« Reply #6 on: December 31, 2006, 01:34:12 pm »
Ok, based on the feedback I received above, I made a couple of changes. How about this one.  Is this better?  Thanks again for all of the input.  Cheers.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2006, 02:06:27 pm by acevedor2 »
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Re: Would Like Opinion on New CP Layout
« Reply #7 on: December 31, 2006, 03:12:02 pm »
If you are looking to trim it down the player 2 coin button is not used that often.  Games that require it (gauntlet for example) I just remap a player 2 button - there are 6 buttons and gauntlet only wants 1.  When you exit a game.. it comes back to the menu so a menu button is not needed.   The 2 buttons next to the spinner and not needed.  I might keep the 7th button next to Player 1 for defender.  The 2 buttons next to the track ball are not needed and I would straighten the 6 packs.  The V shape that you have is funky and will take some getting used to.  Look how close your joysticks are to the buttons..  might be a tad cramped.  I would make a cardboard mock up to get a feel for it.  Cut out some paper and place it on there and just see how it feels. 

Here is mine for a reference and the joystick - button spacing is right on for me.  I went to a few arcades and measured spacing .

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Re: Would Like Opinion on New CP Layout
« Reply #8 on: December 31, 2006, 03:25:30 pm »
Well, then, that drawing isn't to scale, cos you shouldn't have to piggyback the right stick above the buttons.  I'd look more at other's panels, even check out the SS classic.  (Note: their CO2 is now the same size and - well, a little tightly - contains dual-dual sticks.)

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Re: Would Like Opinion on New CP Layout
« Reply #9 on: December 31, 2006, 03:42:56 pm »
I wouldn't put any button or anything above the spinner. I have the quit button just off to the left and the pause off to the right and people manage to hit those buttons all the time. They even manage to hit the Player 2 joystick. Here is a picture of my CP so you can see what I'm talking about.

The pause is white
The quit is red


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Re: Would Like Opinion on New CP Layout
« Reply #10 on: December 31, 2006, 04:12:39 pm »
Thanks to all.  The menu button will be mapped to Tab so I can configure on the fly if need be so I definitely want to keep it.  I would consider moving it to the side since it won't be used that often.  That said, I am going to move those buttons a little further to the right regardless to avoid being hit by a person using the spinner (menu, exit, pause).

Although a little unconventional, I think the v shape of the button layout will stay.  For me it helps me to better differentiate between the buttons when I am playing.  I am going to play with the layout tonight a little though so I can be sure. 

The drawing is absolutely to scale.  33.5 x 17.5.  Not sure what you mean by "piggy back the right stick above the buttons?  I have 6 buttons per player, 1 button on each side of the spinner (for lefties and righties), 3 trackball/mouse buttons (1 on the left ands two on the right of the trackball) and then the player/coin/admin buttons.

I didn't see a need for any buttons next to the trigger joystick.  It is a 2 button on the top Happ trigger joystick.

The center of the joystick is just under 4 inches from buttons (1/4),  That seems pretty common, no?


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Re: Would Like Opinion on New CP Layout
« Reply #11 on: December 31, 2006, 04:50:57 pm »
Your audience matters too.... if it's just you playing it - you can do what you want. As you add other people into the mix, you might be surprised how confused people will get trying to play the games. If you have a button mapped to Tab or that shuts down the whole machine - be prepared to deal with that too.

I've learned how to build my machines with a fair amount of ergonomics in mind. My first machine required far too much attention from me while having a party.

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Re: Would Like Opinion on New CP Layout
« Reply #12 on: December 31, 2006, 05:14:16 pm »
Thanks Lew!  That's exactly the kind of feedback I was looking for.  How about this version?  I straightened out the button layout.  Additionally, I moved the buttons a little further from the joysticks, about 1/2"  I also moved the menu button to the side of the CP.  I want to keep it, but I want to make sure that someone won't accidentally hit it.  How about the exit button?  Should it get moved to the side of the CP as well?

Another question is - are there any spinner games that require 2 buttons vice one?  Also, I am concerned that the location of the 6 button cluster is too close to the button one for the trackball at the lower left of the trackball. Thoughts?  Thanks again!

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Re: Would Like Opinion on New CP Layout
« Reply #13 on: December 31, 2006, 05:29:58 pm »
Whatever design you decide to go with...make a cardboard mock up of it and "play it" for a bit. This will tell what works and what does not. Takes some time, but well worth it.

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Re: Would Like Opinion on New CP Layout
« Reply #14 on: December 31, 2006, 06:17:33 pm »
Thanks Xam.  I am in the process of doing that now.  That said, I have had a full size printout done for a while and have been "playing" based on the locations of the controls.  I think I actually like it it with the buttons in rows (as opposed to  a "v").  Also, with the spinner moved tot he left, it is actually easier to use.
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Re: Would Like Opinion on New CP Layout
« Reply #15 on: December 31, 2006, 08:18:47 pm »
Ok, here is the latest.  I removed the third button for the mouse as I could think of no use for it.  I originally had included it because the Happ Trackball had connections for three buttons available.  It's redundant though so I removed it. 

I staggered the buttons and I am happy now with the way it looks AND feels.  I can't take credit though, I stole the design from one I saw by Moving Target in the CP thread.

I think I am just about there.  Though I will probably ponder this one for a while, I still struggle with whether or not to put a dedicated 4 way in with ball top.  I just think it is getting pretty busy the way it is.  Plus, I really don't need it because i have the Ultimarc Magic Stik Plus Joys which allow to switch from 4-8 way from up top.  Anyway, take a look at the latest.  Thoughts?

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Re: Would Like Opinion on New CP Layout
« Reply #16 on: December 31, 2006, 08:59:48 pm »
Oh.  I missed the right stick, thinking the top-fire above the buttons was it.   Okay, then....hmmm....well, I'd definitley like said above, I'd not put any bottons in line with the trackball.  (Now, it must either be spas-ism or just drunken-ness....or both... that makes people do what lew says.)  As for the top-fire, I don't like to reach that far up the panel* for anything in-game, but if you like it....

Also, there's gotta be some room for mouse buttons without seeming crowded as you have them.  And for a composite CP, I like the standard arrangement, cos I can set the controls so my wrist is straight - for example: in single-player games, I use the left stick and the right buttons.  (This means I'm not leaning over the panel/maintain good posture.  It would be neat to have a batch file for 2-player simul games that would set the controls, thusly, if you only press 'player 1'.)  A more specific example - Asteriods: I use a stick for turning, and I use the following buttons of 'player 2': top-middle, fire ; bottom-left, thrust ; bottom right, hyperspace (or, Ast-del, shields)...that is, an arrow formation. You could still do this, but as well.

*See panel image.

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Re: Would Like Opinion on New CP Layout
« Reply #17 on: December 31, 2006, 09:41:16 pm »
Thanks Tranq,
    The top right stick is actual a Happ Trigger Stick.  I would probably place it a little lower in an ideal situation, but I think it is probably in the best location it can be given the other control placement. 

The intention for the two mouse buttons is also to be the right and left fire buttons for trackball games.  Although I am still trying to figure out how to make those buttons work as both mouse buttons and fire buttons.  The Happ trackball has the connectors coming off it for the mouse buttons, and they have pigtails to connect them elsewhere as well.  I am just wondering if I hook them up to the fire 1 slots on the ipac, will they still work as right and left mouse buttons in windows when needed?

There is actually quite a bit of space on the board between controls/buttons.  The entire CP is 33.5 inches long by 17.5 inches wide.  Thanks again for all of the input.
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Re: Would Like Opinion on New CP Layout
« Reply #18 on: January 02, 2007, 01:25:43 pm »
Can you provide or do you have measurements on your new CP? not just overall width & height, but also, button placement measurements?

Thanks,
Andre

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Re: Would Like Opinion on New CP Layout
« Reply #19 on: January 02, 2007, 02:24:48 pm »
Sure do Boboli.  I have a Microsoft Visio diagram that has all of the measurements.  You can find it here.

http://www.filefactory.com/file/3cdfc5/

cheers!
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Re: Would Like Opinion on New CP Layout
« Reply #20 on: January 02, 2007, 02:55:28 pm »
Not everyone is going to agree with these changes, but here's my suggestions. I can email you back the changed visio file if you'd like.

Move the trackball buttons above the trackball, or get rid of them. If you're worried about people not understanding the panel, buttons on either side of the trackball and positioned rather closely to the P1 controls is really going to throw them. I have buttons above my trackball and never hit them. Unlike the spinner, I think they're low enough to not cause problems. You might just get rid of them all together, since anything they do can be replicated with the P1 buttons.

The joysticks and buttons have been aligned and spread apart a little bit. It's just a comfort thing. Try it with a mockup, see if you like it.

I recommend keeping the a coin button for both players. It seems like people understand it better if they both get to "insert" their own coins with their own buttons.

You can either keep of get rid of the spinner buttons. Either way, I don't think they're causing problems.

Did you want that four-way that was in the visio file (I'm not sure, since it's not on any of your layouts)? I recommend against it, since the panel is starting to get a bit cluttered and it only does something that the Mag-sticks already do.

Edit: just noticed that the buttons and joystick are still not aligned perfectly. The buttons are supposed to be just a bit higher.
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Re: Would Like Opinion on New CP Layout
« Reply #21 on: January 02, 2007, 03:20:50 pm »
Thanks T.  I did keep the 4 way that is in the latest file.  It does add to the other"stuff" already on the panel and you are right it is duplicated by the Mag Sticks, but I just couldn't see having a panel without a ball top.  After my last trip to our local arcade, (where they have a pacman/Mspacman both with a normal handle and a ball top) I had to have the ball top. 

Because of that it forced me to move the spinner back to the middle (or close to it) above the trackball.  That said, I moved it further up so it wasn't as close to the trackball.   I know that is a point of contention for many people because of the possibility of schwacking fingers.  That said, there aren't many other options to keep the controls I want and get them all on there.

I actually had the latest version printed out at FEDEX Kinko's and there is actually quite a bit of room on there. 

The problem with moving the buttons for the trackball to the top is I actually want to use them when I play games like Cenitpede, etc.  I prefer to have them closer in rather than having to use the standard P1 fire 1 button.  The other problem is that now that the spinner is back above the trackball, putting the two buttons above the trackball now gets a little crowded.

I certainly appreciate all of your input.  I learn more and more each time I visit this forum.  Lots of knowledge!  Cheers and Thanks again! 
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Re: Would Like Opinion on New CP Layout
« Reply #22 on: January 02, 2007, 03:26:21 pm »
Now that I think of it, a couple of more questions:

 Can I assign the mouse buttons on the CP (right/left) to P1 Fire 1 and still have them work right as  mouse buttons?
 
Based on what everyone is saying, I can do away with the mouse buttons and just assign them to P1 buttons.  I guess my real question is what buttons?  I am assuming that P1 fire1 would be left click and then I could use P1 Fire2 for right click.  But if that's the case, how does MAME know when I want to use the button as a fire button and when it needs to be a mouse button.  Or will it only act as a mouse and mouse button when I am out of MAME and into Windows?

Thanks
« Last Edit: January 02, 2007, 03:39:24 pm by acevedor2 »
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Re: Would Like Opinion on New CP Layout
« Reply #23 on: January 02, 2007, 04:28:39 pm »
Well one of these days I will actually finalize the design.  I figure though that it is better to spend the time now rather than ending up witha CP that is not functional and that I don't like.

Based on the full size printout I have, it appears that the mouse buttons really were not in the best location.  They were ok if I was using the trackball as a mouse, but when using the trackball for games and stuff they were just not in a good location.  Based on the assumption (which I hope is good) that I can program P1 buttons to perform the same functions as the mouse, I have removed them. Also, based on the work by Tahnok I moved the buttons a little further away from the joysticks. 

I think it flows a little better now.  Of ocurse the most controversial change is of course the addtition of the 4 way ball top and the moving of the spinner back to the center. Oh well, got to make some compromises. Any thoughts?
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Re: Would Like Opinion on New CP Layout
« Reply #24 on: January 02, 2007, 05:39:32 pm »
Dude, getting a left arm around that left stick to use the 4-way ain't gonna happen.  Equally, the spinner being over that far in an earlier version will suffer the same.  You have these HUGE spaces between sticks and button sets....move the left button set over left, move the right stick over right - this will fix the mouse button issue, as there'll be room for them next to the mouse.....OR, forget those buttons, all together, move the 4-way more over the left button set, and......actually, I think it's just too complicated.  Seen worse, but still....

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Re: Would Like Opinion on New CP Layout
« Reply #25 on: January 02, 2007, 06:39:29 pm »
Thanks for the heads up.  I completely removed the mouse buttons.  I don't play PC games with the cab so the only thing I will really use them for is admin stuff.  I will just program and use the P1 buttons.  Great advice.  Thanks!

You will see that I moved both the spinner and the 4 way joy.  I am sure it is a little busy for some but I think it will work pretty well.  I measured everything both in Visio and on the full size printout and there is quite a bit of room.  There is actually more room between my controls than in several of the arcade cabs I played yesterday during my "research time" at the local game room:)  I think the diagram is probably misleading because controls that look close are actually several inches apart.

I am just about to go to final print and start cutting out the controls.  Any last minute thoughts? 



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Re: Would Like Opinion on New CP Layout
« Reply #26 on: January 02, 2007, 07:24:45 pm »
Good advice about moving the upper joysticks to somewhere that they can be used a little better.

Again though, I recommend moving the main player buttons up to have them align on the y axis with the joystick. One of the biggest mistakes I made with my early panels was not placing the joystick and buttons far enough up on the panel. To be comfortable, I've found that you need as much of a wrist rest area as possible.

Have you already bought your controls? If not, you may consider a Happ 3 " highlip ball. It might help prevent you from hitting your fingers quite as badly. It's not the end of the world though if you use a normal 3".

Looks like it's going to be a nicely balanced panel.
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Re: Would Like Opinion on New CP Layout
« Reply #27 on: January 02, 2007, 08:16:54 pm »
that spinner is gonna cause you trouble. I gaurantee if anyone plays some golden tee or world class bowling it isn't gonna be pretty.

Anything above the trackball will get hit. period.

Have you checked out the ultimarc 360's yet? With those you can eliminate your 4 ways all together. Personally, I think your doing too much with this CP. By trying to do everything - you'll do nothing well.

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Re: Would Like Opinion on New CP Layout
« Reply #28 on: January 02, 2007, 08:18:19 pm »
Thanks T.  I already have the Happ 3 inch illuminated.  I might do a little more tweaking and see if I can move the controls up a bit more.  I just don't want to go too far and crowd the rest.  Again,many thanks for all of the advice.  It has certainly been helpful!
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Re: Would Like Opinion on New CP Layout
« Reply #29 on: January 02, 2007, 08:44:57 pm »
If you straighten out the buttons and you pretty much have my cp.  The topfire and spinner work great for tron with that layout.  I might have the center of the "6 pack" of buttons line up with the center of the joystick.. so move the joystick down a bit.  Other than that it looks great.


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Re: Would Like Opinion on New CP Layout
« Reply #30 on: January 02, 2007, 09:42:23 pm »
Thanks Miles.  I appreciate it. 

I understand the concern Lew and I am sure you are right about the trackball/spinner.  That said I plan on completing the cardboard layout before I actually put it together, just to double check it.  Additionally, you will notice that the spinner is now offset to the right as opposed to directly on top of the trackball - based on all of the feedback I got :)  Moving it off completely to the side just didn't work for me. 

I have seen Ultimarc's 360s, but I I wanted the traditional joys.  Plus with  the USB trackball and IPAC already, I didn't want to add two morw USB devices.  And I do realize that USB hubs are only about 4 bucks.

I do disagree though that doing an all in one will reduce the functionality of the CP.  Again, I haven't finished the cardboard cutout, but I think there is plenty of space between the controls to allow for great functionality AND flexibility.

Thanks again though for all of the input.  It really is invaluable to get the opinions of people who have actually built these and experienced different issues.  Lots of great lessons learned as I have found out from this thread.  Cheers!
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Re: Would Like Opinion on New CP Layout
« Reply #31 on: January 02, 2007, 09:49:02 pm »
When I made my one and only panel I just set it up for my favorite games. Defender, Battlezone, Missile Command etc.   Then I threw in extras as needed.  So, if you like Defender  or Stargate you might ask if this is how you would like to play it.  Also, I decided that my cab project would have some controls off the panel (near the monitor, for example) since the novelty of the coin and start buttons has worn off for me and they just seem to waste space. I thought I might have a Pause button or an Escape available off the panel. But this decision is also related to my next effort  to have removable panels for different game genres (to accommodate racing games, etc.)  Also I used a removable joystick so I can lift out the handle and this permits  access to my Defender Thrust and Fire buttons. Also, I may use some missile command type buttons  for my non-essential buttons since they are smaller.

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Re: Would Like Opinion on New CP Layout
« Reply #32 on: January 05, 2007, 07:57:38 am »
Not everyone is going to agree with these changes, but here's my suggestions. I can email you back the changed visio file if you'd like.

Move the trackball buttons above the trackball, or get rid of them. If you're worried about people not understanding the panel, buttons on either side of the trackball and positioned rather closely to the P1 controls is really going to throw them. I have buttons above my trackball and never hit them. Unlike the spinner, I think they're low enough to not cause problems. You might just get rid of them all together, since anything they do can be replicated with the P1 buttons.

The joysticks and buttons have been aligned and spread apart a little bit. It's just a comfort thing. Try it with a mockup, see if you like it.

I recommend keeping the a coin button for both players. It seems like people understand it better if they both get to "insert" their own coins with their own buttons.

You can either keep of get rid of the spinner buttons. Either way, I don't think they're causing problems.

Did you want that four-way that was in the visio file (I'm not sure, since it's not on any of your layouts)? I recommend against it, since the panel is starting to get a bit cluttered and it only does something that the Mag-sticks already do.

Edit: just noticed that the buttons and joystick are still not aligned perfectly. The buttons are supposed to be just a bit higher.

This is similar to my layout and I contantly hit my right hand on Joystick 2 when using the trackball.
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Re: Would Like Opinion on New CP Layout
« Reply #33 on: January 05, 2007, 09:54:28 am »
Thanks Bam, I appreciate it.  It turns out because I measured wrong, the panel will actually be about 3/4 of an inch wider.  I will use most of that and move the right joystick out a little.  Thanks again.
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Re: Would Like Opinion on New CP Layout
« Reply #34 on: January 06, 2007, 07:08:50 pm »
Bam, what is the distance between the center of your trackball, and the center of Joystick 2.  I don't want to run into the same problem with hitting the joystick every time I use the trackball.  Can you measure yours and give me the center to center distance (cenmter of trackball to center of joy). 

Also if anyone else can measure theirs and let me know the distance I would appreciate it.


Thanks!
« Last Edit: January 06, 2007, 08:29:51 pm by acevedor2 »
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Re: Would Like Opinion on New CP Layout
« Reply #35 on: January 06, 2007, 09:54:41 pm »
I just had an idea.  Print a copy of your layout.  Put it on the table, with a piece of glass or plexi-glass, etc, over it, then get some sucker darts (you know, they have suction cups at the tips for such surfaces) or something similar with some kind of shaft - hell, get some cups and glue pencils or sumpm to 'em - and then act like you're playin.

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Re: Would Like Opinion on New CP Layout
« Reply #36 on: January 06, 2007, 10:04:43 pm »
Not  a bad idea.  I thought of the whole cardboard mock up idea but the problem is unless you are actually playing a good trackball game, you really won't be able to tell.  Since the cardboard mock up won't really be connected, I am not sure it would be much help.
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Re: Would Like Opinion on New CP Layout
« Reply #37 on: January 06, 2007, 10:48:05 pm »
Don't forget to have some drunk friends over... observe how they play too. Thats when the rubber meets the road.