Main Restorations Software Audio/Jukebox/MP3 Everything Else Buy/Sell/Trade
Project Announcements Monitor/Video GroovyMAME Merit/JVL Touchscreen Meet Up Retail Vendors
Driving & Racing Woodworking Software Support Forums Consoles Project Arcade Reviews
Automated Projects Artwork Frontend Support Forums Pinball Forum Discussion Old Boards
Raspberry Pi & Dev Board controls.dat Linux Miscellaneous Arcade Wiki Discussion Old Archives
Lightguns Arcade1Up Try the site in https mode Site News

Unread posts | New Replies | Recent posts | Rules | Chatroom | Wiki | File Repository | RSS | Submit news

  

Author Topic: New rules regarding copyright and the DMCA: How is MAME effected?  (Read 3156 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Patent Doc

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 208
  • Last login:March 25, 2021, 12:07:33 pm
  • My wife says I'm the fastest man alive :(
Every 3 years DMCA is evaluated and recommendations are made to change the rules.  This occurred on 11/27/06.  This year the door for MAME and all of those ROMs just opened a little bit wider.  Below is a quote from the copyright office.

The Librarian of Congress, on the recommendation of the Register of Copyrights, has announced the classes of works subject to the exemption from the prohibition against circumvention of technological measures that control access to copyrighted works. Persons making noninfringing uses of the following six classes of works will not be subject to the prohibition against circumventing access controls (17 U.S.C. § 1201(a)(1)) during the next three years.
2. Computer programs and video games distributed in formats that have become obsolete and that require the original media or hardware as a condition of access, when circumvention is accomplished for the purpose of preservation or archival reproduction of published digital works by a library or archive. A format shall be considered obsolete if the machine or system necessary to render perceptible a work stored in that format is no longer manufactured or is no longer reasonably available in the commercial marketplace.

http://www.copyright.gov/1201/

What does this mean?  Well, if you are a library or are archiving then DMCA doesn't apply to you.  Circumvent away.  Still need to own the work.  Anyway, the argument could be made.

Patent Doc

 :cheers:

Fozzy The Bear

  • Handbags at dawn in here!!!
  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1831
  • Last login:September 18, 2011, 11:29:59 am
  • It's Been One Of Those Days... Don't Ask!
Re: New rules regarding copyright and the DMCA: How is MAME effected?
« Reply #1 on: November 29, 2006, 06:55:59 pm »
I answered this one a few days ago..... It's of no help to us whatsoever.... See http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=60467.0

It is only about the control of access via obsolete copy protection methods. It is NOT about freedom of or exemption to Copyright in the material itself.

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)
« Last Edit: November 29, 2006, 06:57:43 pm by Fozzy The Bear »
Most bottles and jars contain at least twenty-five percent recycled Pacman.
And research indicates that Space Invaders are strongly attracted to people who have recently eaten meat pies.

Patent Doc

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 208
  • Last login:March 25, 2021, 12:07:33 pm
  • My wife says I'm the fastest man alive :(
Re: New rules regarding copyright and the DMCA: How is MAME effected?
« Reply #2 on: November 29, 2006, 07:06:46 pm »
Fozzy, I'm sorry if I missed your post, but you are wrong, it does apply to us.  True, this doesn't affect copyright infringement, I never said it did.  However, one of the issues with respect to owning ROMs is that there was "circumvention" associated with the movement of the rom from the chip on the board to your PC.  This is because originally you needed the hardware to access the game.  Owning a mame rom gets around this.  So even if you own the game you may have been violating DMCA.  As the game itself is obsolete and no longer being manufactured (exception being pac man, ms pac, galaga and some others) then as the rule reads you are no longer in violation of DMCA.  Admittedly not a huge deal, but for those of us who own the pcb or the game, an argument can now be made that the roms for those games, now being used with mame are ok.  Still have to own the orginal game or pcb (maybe), but before, even this wasnt enough to avoid infringement because the act of transformation was a violation of DMCA.

Fozzy The Bear

  • Handbags at dawn in here!!!
  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1831
  • Last login:September 18, 2011, 11:29:59 am
  • It's Been One Of Those Days... Don't Ask!
Re: New rules regarding copyright and the DMCA: How is MAME effected?
« Reply #3 on: November 29, 2006, 08:34:36 pm »
Fozzy, I'm sorry if I missed your post, but you are wrong, it does apply to us.  True, this doesn't affect copyright infringement, I never said it did.  However, one of the issues with respect to owning ROMs is that there was "circumvention" associated with the movement of the rom from the chip on the board to your PC.  This is because originally you needed the hardware to access the game.  Owning a mame rom gets around this.  So even if you own the game you may have been violating DMCA.  As the game itself is obsolete and no longer being manufactured (exception being pac man, ms pac, galaga and some others) then as the rule reads you are no longer in violation of DMCA.  Admittedly not a huge deal, but for those of us who own the pcb or the game, an argument can now be made that the roms for those games, now being used with mame are ok.  Still have to own the orginal game or pcb (maybe), but before, even this wasnt enough to avoid infringement because the act of transformation was a violation of DMCA.

The act of having a copy of it (a ROM) at all, is a violation of DMCA because the copy you have has been made without consent of Law or of the owner of that work. The amendment does not apply to ordinary citizens making copies of ROM's so that they can play games. It's very specific about who is allowed to circumvent the protection and for what purpose.

"Persons making noninfringing uses of the following six classes of works" It can very easily be argued that, our uses are most certainly "Copyright Infringing" and therefore, we are exempted from applying this ruling in any way to our use of ROMs.

The fact remains that 99.99% of us don't own the original arcade boards and are therefore not operating under the terms of fair use and are (probably) infringing copyright under DMCA.

Of course... Nobody here has ROMs that they don't own the original arcade boards for do they ;)  :laugh2:

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)
« Last Edit: November 29, 2006, 09:07:10 pm by Fozzy The Bear »
Most bottles and jars contain at least twenty-five percent recycled Pacman.
And research indicates that Space Invaders are strongly attracted to people who have recently eaten meat pies.

lloydcom

  • Guest
  • Trade Count: (0)
Re: New rules regarding copyright and the DMCA: How is MAME effected?
« Reply #4 on: November 30, 2006, 09:03:47 am »

Of course... Nobody here has ROMs that they don't own the original arcade boards for do they ;)  :laugh2:

I have some dead boards in the loft which I can now play on MAME, and some laserdiscs which I can play on Daphne.  So your above post is a bit off target.  If the hardware dies we can play those games without the DMCA getting their hooks into us if they walked in one day, if that would ever happen...

Granted you are in the UK, as your response on the previous thread suggests, but this site is based in the US, and is quite important. Since your comments are UK biased we can exclude them in this discussion as it doesn't impact you.

As I cannot see the DMCA's reach being able to grab you Fozzy, but their are others in this hobby who like to stay legal with a valid moral reason to do so.  But to entertain the thought, a visit by PC plod would cause you no end of bother, even if the odds are a million to 1.

I'm sure there are others on this board that are in the same boat, which play MAME legally.  My previous post was exactly in the same vein as the original poster on this thread.

Can you qualify yourself Fozzy with the both comments made on both threads?

Are you a solicitor or some way trained in US copyright law?

kelemvor

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 426
  • Last login:May 13, 2012, 09:40:44 am
Re: New rules regarding copyright and the DMCA: How is MAME effected?
« Reply #5 on: November 30, 2006, 09:24:41 am »
Quote
...when circumvention is accomplished for the purpose of preservation or archival reproduction...

Doesn't affect us at all since playing the ROMs is completely different than archiving them.

Havok

  • Keeper of the __Blue_Stars___
  • Trade Count: (+17)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4530
  • Last login:July 11, 2025, 01:29:48 am
  • Insufficient facts always invite danger.
Re: New rules regarding copyright and the DMCA: How is MAME effected?
« Reply #6 on: November 30, 2006, 09:33:03 am »
Quote
...when circumvention is accomplished for the purpose of preservation or archival reproduction...

Doesn't affect us at all since playing the ROMs is completely different than archiving them.

No, no. no - you have it all wrong: we are not playing the ROM, we are verifying the archive was properly performed. And future tests are just to verify that said ROM was not corrupted whilst in storage.

shardian

  • Saint is the evil mastermind
  • Trade Count: (+23)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9218
  • Last login:August 21, 2015, 03:11:31 pm
  • Friends don't let friends build frankenpanels...
Re: New rules regarding copyright and the DMCA: How is MAME effected?
« Reply #7 on: November 30, 2006, 09:45:33 am »
Quote
...when circumvention is accomplished for the purpose of preservation or archival reproduction...

Doesn't affect us at all since playing the ROMs is completely different than archiving them.

No, no. no - you have it all wrong: we are not playing the ROM, we are verifying the archive was properly performed. And future tests are just to verify that said ROM was not corrupted whilst in storage.

Except for the fact that we are not actually members of the official archiving group, or any library.  ;)

Any librarians in here? :laugh2: I used to volunteer, does that count?

FrizzleFried

  • no one listens to me anyway.
  • Trade Count: (+4)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5146
  • Last login:July 24, 2025, 09:28:02 am
    • Idaho Garagecade
Re: New rules regarding copyright and the DMCA: How is MAME effected?
« Reply #8 on: November 30, 2006, 09:52:03 am »
Not to sound crude...who really...WHO GIVES A "POO"?   If you can point out ONE SINGLE person here who owns EVERY SINGLE ROM he has on his system,  I can point you to some kickass OCEAN FRONT PROPERTY in Kansas that is a helluva steal!
Visit my arcade blog at: www.idahogaragecade.com (Updated 10-28-21)

leapinlew

  • Some questionable things going on in this room with cheetos
  • Trade Count: (+4)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7919
  • Last login:Today at 11:06:50 am
Re: New rules regarding copyright and the DMCA: How is MAME effected?
« Reply #9 on: November 30, 2006, 10:01:36 am »

Of course... Nobody here has ROMs that they don't own the original arcade boards for do they ;)  :laugh2:

I have some dead boards in the loft which I can now play on MAME, and some laserdiscs which I can play on Daphne.  So your above post is a bit off target.  If the hardware dies we can play those games without the DMCA getting their hooks into us if they walked in one day, if that would ever happen...

Granted you are in the UK, as your response on the previous thread suggests, but this site is based in the US, and is quite important. Since your comments are UK biased we can exclude them in this discussion as it doesn't impact you.

As I cannot see the DMCA's reach being able to grab you Fozzy, but their are others in this hobby who like to stay legal with a valid moral reason to do so.  But to entertain the thought, a visit by PC plod would cause you no end of bother, even if the odds are a million to 1.

I'm sure there are others on this board that are in the same boat, which play MAME legally.  My previous post was exactly in the same vein as the original poster on this thread.

Can you qualify yourself Fozzy with the both comments made on both threads?

Are you a solicitor or some way trained in US copyright law?

I agree with both you guys.

On one side you have the new ruling which seems to suggest it's ok to circumvent technologies if the hardware is no longer present or accessible. On the other hand you have copyrighted material that is owned by a corporation.

Fozzy is saying "it doesn't impact us whatsover" but in truth it does, what about materials that fall in the cracks? Hardware designs that may have been patented and necessary to play a game - like a yoke. What about games who had copyrights owned by companies who are no longer in existance or the status of a copyright is unknown. Lots of the games were tied directly to hardware.

The library argument was spelled out in the last thread. Archiving isn't the only purpose of a library, but it is the one people most closely associate with it. Sure, it's flimsy but it's a step closer to legal ROM ownership. (at least for some ROMS)

leapinlew

  • Some questionable things going on in this room with cheetos
  • Trade Count: (+4)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7919
  • Last login:Today at 11:06:50 am
Re: New rules regarding copyright and the DMCA: How is MAME effected?
« Reply #10 on: November 30, 2006, 12:23:45 pm »
Quote
...when circumvention is accomplished for the purpose of preservation or archival reproduction...

Doesn't affect us at all since playing the ROMs is completely different than archiving them.

I don't see much difference in playing a rom and enjoying it any different than reading a good book or listening to some music.

Fozzy The Bear

  • Handbags at dawn in here!!!
  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1831
  • Last login:September 18, 2011, 11:29:59 am
  • It's Been One Of Those Days... Don't Ask!
Re: New rules regarding copyright and the DMCA: How is MAME effected?
« Reply #11 on: November 30, 2006, 02:46:20 pm »
I have some dead boards in the loft which I can now play on MAME, and some laserdiscs which I can play on Daphne.  So your above post is a bit off target.

And your point here is what??? You personally may well ONLY have ROMs for and play the games that you actually own the original hardware of and wish to remain totally within the legal domain and for that you have my greatest respect, and I applaud you for it.  BUT are you seriously suggesting that this is the case for everyone on this board??? If you're not, then it's not at all off target is it.

Since your comments are UK biased we can exclude them in this discussion as it doesn't impact you.

That's simply not the case..... None of my comments in any way specifically UK biased. There is also absolutely nothing which prevents a US Court reaching a judgement on a citizen of a foreign country. So while the UK is outside of the Jurisdiction of the DMCA, it most certainly does apply to me over here, because hypothetically if I had committed a crime under US Law, the next time I'm in the USA I would probably then be arrested if a US Court reached a Judgement against me. So it most certainly does apply to me.

Even if that judgement is not necessarily enforceable in another jurisdiction (in this case the UK), there is also nothing preventing the US Government from requesting that a UK Court apply the judgement so reached, and this has happened on both sides of the Atlantic several times. Our respective Governments do cooperate with each other when needed you know. 

As I cannot see the DMCA's reach being able to grab you Fozzy... [SNIP]
Not correct.... see above!

Can you qualify yourself Fozzy with the both comments made on both threads? Are you a solicitor or some way trained in US copyright law?
Yes I am trained in Copyright Law, UK, EU and US..... I had to be in order to protect some of my own intellectual properties, some of them software and some of motion picture related.

In specific relation to both the original questions in both threads:
This ruling by the US Library Of Congress. Does not apply to our hobby, however much you would like it to, because it states:
1) "when circumvention is accomplished for the purpose of preservation or archival reproduction of published digital works by a library or archive."
WE, individually, are not a legally recognised library or archive. Circumventing those protections for the purpose of playing games is not an archival purpose (I take it you do play the games that you have ROM's for).
2) It also states: "Persons making noninfringing uses of the following six classes of works"  The majority of people here, quite unlike your good self, do NOT make non infringing uses. Simply because you can probably count on one hand, the number of people who only play games which they own the original arcade boards for.
3) The ruling specifically ONLY permits a right to circumvent protection. The ruling specifically does NOT diminish the rights of the original copyright owners or their assignees. The right to copy or distribute or licence the actual material software remains with its original owners.
In other words: It STILL does not grant any right to make a copy and such copies and use of them STILL falls under the terms of the DMCA.

At the end of the day, I have to agree with FrizzleFried when he says:
Not to sound crude...who really...WHO GIVES A "POO"?   If you can point out ONE SINGLE person here who owns EVERY SINGLE ROM he has on his system,  I can point you to some kickass OCEAN FRONT PROPERTY in Kansas that is a helluva steal!


He's absolutely right!! Who Gives A Poo! Nothing whatsoever has changed, in relation to our hobby. No matter how much you would like it apply to us, the additional freedoms and rights it grants to libraries archives and educational institutions, simply don't apply to us.

Also....
What about games who had copyrights owned by companies who are no longer in existance or the status of a copyright is unknown.

Sorry Lew, but that's very sticky and dangerous as an argument. Just because you don't know who owns the software, doesn't mean that somebody doesn't. Lots of game companies went out of business but were bought and sold as commodities, hence the rights to that software could well still be owned by some corporation or person or other.

Look at it this way..... Lets say you're walking down the street, and you see a parked car that has been sitting there for a couple of years. You think to yourself "Hmmmm I like the look of that car, I think I want it"  you ask around and nobody you ask seems to know who owns it. So you get in, start it up and drive it away!.... just as you do that, the owner of the car looks out of his top floor window and sees his car being taken. How long is it then before there's a State Trooper on your tail???...... get the point?? even if you don't know who owns something, it doesn't make it "Legally" OK to help yourself to it. 

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)
« Last Edit: November 30, 2006, 07:43:52 pm by Fozzy The Bear »
Most bottles and jars contain at least twenty-five percent recycled Pacman.
And research indicates that Space Invaders are strongly attracted to people who have recently eaten meat pies.

Patent Doc

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 208
  • Last login:March 25, 2021, 12:07:33 pm
  • My wife says I'm the fastest man alive :(
Re: New rules regarding copyright and the DMCA: How is MAME effected?
« Reply #12 on: November 30, 2006, 05:25:09 pm »
I think I should chime in here as well.  I think my excitement that the circumvention aspect of the DMCA may be removed, may have led many astray here.  Leapinlew...Fozzy is correct, this relates to circumvention only.  The copyright is fully intact.  Also, the UK and US signed on to a trade treaty called TRIPPS in the 90s which basically means all member states observe each others copyright laws and have similary provisions.  This includes the enforcement of copyright of works from another country.  Fozzy actually could be sued in the UK.

Regarding the copyrights, as I and others said earlier, this rule change ony impacts those of us that own the original game or arguably the original board.  Under US law a fair use would be to make a personal archive of something you already have rights to.  This is really the key, you must have rights to the origianl.  Under DMCA arguably though you lawfully had rights to the original if for some reason the orgiianl stopped working, you were prevented from circumventing the obsolete hardware so you could put the rom on a CD or other media.  This means that the DMCA was preventing you from enjoying something you had rights to use.  I disagree with Fozzy that the archive just had to sit there...there is enough case law out there that siggests the archival copy could be used.  Nonetheless, now you can make the archival copy without fear of the DMCA, for the next 3 years at least.  But... and I can't emphasize this enough...YOU MUST HAVE RIGHTS IN THE ORIGINAL WORK.  No rights...then it don't mean poo.

By the way.....I do own all my games, though I must admit I am chomping at the bit to have the freedom to enjoy all the others and really don't want to wait to 2085 (95yrs from 1980 for works for hire) or 70yrs beyond the creators death (freelance work).

Patent Doc

shmokes

  • Just think of all the suffering in this world that could have been avoided had I just been a little better informed. :)
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10397
  • Last login:September 24, 2016, 06:50:42 pm
  • Don't tread on me.
    • Jake Moses
Re: New rules regarding copyright and the DMCA: How is MAME effected?
« Reply #13 on: December 01, 2006, 03:43:05 am »
It does protect MAME itself, though, does it not?  And, while it doesn't make it legal for me to own a complete set of ROMS, it protects the people involved with actually dumping ROMS to add to the archive.

What I mean to say is that I'm still breaking the law, but all the people who make it so easy for me to break the law (MAME devs, etc.) are all protected.  Isn't that about right?
Check out my website for in-depth reviews of children's books, games, and educational apps for the iPad:

Best Kid iPad Apps

Bluedeath

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 206
  • Last login:June 19, 2014, 11:20:09 am
Re: New rules regarding copyright and the DMCA: How is MAME effected?
« Reply #14 on: December 01, 2006, 04:32:48 am »
about owning a legal copy of the software is it lega to have a rom image if you have an original dosk /cart/ cd of a conversion of it I.E. if i own the sega megadrive cart of Strider am i legally allowed to play Strider on mame?
I give up  fighting keyboard dislexia, I lost.

lloydcom

  • Guest
  • Trade Count: (0)
Re: New rules regarding copyright and the DMCA: How is MAME effected?
« Reply #15 on: December 01, 2006, 06:10:13 am »
Uh no.  I used to have that idea, but all I own is the right to play the said game not the copyright of the game I have in my collection.  So if you have Pacman for the 2600 you do not have the rights to play and keep the original rom.

BUT

If you have an Atari 400 game of Star Raiders and the Atari died a death (or you threw it out the window because you had it with that  :censored: keyboard) and you wanted to play that old favorite again.  You can hack the roms and dump it to disk and run it in an emulator.

You do not OWN the rom for distribution and it would have to be dumped in the confines of your domicile.  The owner of the game is probably Hasbro, and most likely will bring out star raiders in some other form like those TV games.

But Fozzy missed the whole point of both threads yet again.  The question was not about owning the rom, but how that rom was dumped to preserve it in a library form.  I think MAME is a library of sorts.  I library of emulated computers capable of running these old softwares that are considered negated under copyright law, as per that directive. 

But that directive also covers mobile phones and pay per view cable boxes.  I have a similar gripe about Sky +.  Did you know if you recorded movies on the Sky + with subscription say April and then your cancelled the movies in May the Sky+ will lock out the movies you paid to see and record later?

If I had the same problem in the US, you could use that directive to bypass Sky and use a 3rd party utility to watch those movies you paid to watch the month previous.  If you were sued by Sky in the US for doing so, you can use this directive to argue the point in court.

A bit long winded and moot as there is no Sky+ in the states, but it shows what this directive can be used for outside of the arcade roms issue which this thread got complicated and misdirected.

If anything it will cover Guru, and his endevours to amass the arcade library.


Patent Doc

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 208
  • Last login:March 25, 2021, 12:07:33 pm
  • My wife says I'm the fastest man alive :(
Re: New rules regarding copyright and the DMCA: How is MAME effected?
« Reply #16 on: December 01, 2006, 11:25:19 am »
Quote
Hrmm... lots of ranting and basically nobody has it right. 

No offense, but exactly how is what you said any different.  I and others have said the same thing though not in the same words

Quote
Prior to this (but post DMCA), it was illegal to break any kind of encryption for the purpose of backup copies.  In America, we had been allowed to make backup copies.

Where it got fuzzy was online distribution and circumventing the protection/encryption.  You were no longer making your own copy, and DMCA made it illegal to break the measures taken to keep you from doing it.  Kind of a catch-22 there.

compare to

Quote
one of the issues with respect to owning ROMs is that there was "circumvention" associated with the movement of the rom from the chip on the board to your PC.  This is because originally you needed the hardware to access the game.  Owning a mame rom gets around this.  So even if you own the game you may have been violating DMCA.  As the game itself is obsolete and no longer being manufactured (exception being pac man, ms pac, galaga and some others) then as the rule reads you are no longer in violation of DMCA.

and

Quote
Regarding the copyrights, as I and others said earlier, this rule change ony impacts those of us that own the original game or arguably the original board.  Under US law a fair use would be to make a personal archive of something you already have rights to.  This is really the key, you must have rights to the origianl.  Under DMCA arguably though you lawfully had rights to the original if for some reason the orgiianl stopped working, you were prevented from circumventing the obsolete hardware so you could put the rom on a CD or other media.  This means that the DMCA was preventing you from enjoying something you had rights to use.  I disagree with Fozzy that the archive just had to sit there...there is enough case law out there that siggests the archival copy could be used.  Nonetheless, now you can make the archival copy without fear of the DMCA, for the next 3 years at least.

Granted yours was much more succinct, but not new for sure.