I'm making a 1 player ~20" wide CP, looking for suggestions. 2 joys? 3 buttons?

[quarterback]

I've been reading posts similar to this since I first discovered BYOAC and now I'm posting one of them, although maybe slightly different because it's not my first CP.

My current machine is an upright Konami 2 player CP that's about 30" wide.  99.9% of it's use is single player.  One of the downsides is that the player 1 joystick is too far to the left.... not "too far" for a 2player CP, but "too far" for a single player.  I get annoyed that I'm off center playing this all by myself



I'm still pretty happy with it.  As a 2player CP, I think it works well.  Plus I have a 49-way a spinner and a trackball on there without it feeling too much like a Frankenpanel.  Additionally, the two joysticks are well placed for both Crazy Climber and Robotron.



So now I'm working on a new machine and it's just going to be a single-player machine.  I'm not planning on any side-by-side 2 player action.     The entire CP is about 23 inches wide but I'm estimating I can use ~20" of the real estate.   

My current plan is a single joystick with 3 buttons.  I don't play fighters at all.  I'm pretty much a 'classics' kind of guy but I'm pretty sure there's more than enough space for a single joystick and three buttons.   So, with that in mind, I wonder what else I should do.  Should I add a 2nd joystick so I can play Crazy Climber?  Should I use that extra space for a track ball?  A spinner?   I'm not sure.

I'm going to work on a Visio mockup, but I'd actually like to cut some holes tomorrow.  Are there any good examples of single-player CPs?  It seems like most CP examples are 2 to 4 player layouts.

Thanks

[quarterback]

Here are some sample CPs. 
 
The first two include a 2nd joystick for Crazy Climber Robotron.  Anything else I'd use two joysicks with?




I found this 6-button option in Visio.  I'm not sure I'd use it, but I have room.  I guess it would allow me to play that dog/bone/cat/hawk game.   Anybody know of any other reason to do this 6-button layout vs the 3-button shown above?




Here's a single joystick option with a spinner.  Ikari warriors, I guess.   Or tempest/arkanoid, although I think I'd be bothered having the spinner so far to the right.   The joystick is a little closer to the center which, based on my current cab-playing-experience, might be a plus.




I guess I'd rather have a trackball than a spinner, but I'm not interested in dropping any significant money into more controls at this point and I already have an 'extra' spinner.

I don't know, any thoughts on the above?

[quarterback]

Ooohhhh, this CP from RetroJames is pretty hot:

[GoPodular.com]

The first two include a 2nd joystick for Crazy Climber Robotron.  Anything else I'd use two joysicks with?

Smash TV, Karate Champ (kind of, originally dual 4-ways)

I found this 6-button option in Visio.  I'm not sure I'd use it, but I have room.  I guess it would allow me to play that dog/bone/cat/hawk game.   Anybody know of any other reason to do this 6-button layout vs the 3-button shown above?

Looks like a combination of Stargate and Vanguard of sorts.

If you went with a spinner, I'd seriously look at a trigger stick since you could play a "plain" spinner game with your other setup.  Try a mockup similar to your existing panel but with dual joys that are centered, the visio template in place of the trackball, and a trigger stick in place of the 4-way.  Of course the trigger stick is going to cost as much (or more) than a trackball, so it might not be a viable option.

My obviously heavily biased opinion would be to take the button layout from our Classical Minions^TM panel and put it between top-fire sticks ala our Combat Minions^TM panel.

********
add-on:  I like that layout too, but take note that if you rotate the joystick 90^o, you can get the reverse button closer to the stick. 

[quarterback]

The first two include a 2nd joystick for Crazy Climber Robotron.  Anything else I'd use two joysicks with?

Smash TV, Karate Champ (kind of, originally dual 4-ways)

Yeah, and Battlezone!  How could I have forgotten that one.   And it might be a good excuse for me to hack up the topfire Command Control joystick I picked up on ebay.

I found this 6-button option in Visio.  I'm not sure I'd use it, but I have room.  I guess it would allow me to play that dog/bone/cat/hawk game.   Anybody know of any other reason to do this 6-button layout vs the 3-button shown above?

Looks like a combination of Stargate and Vanguard of sorts.

Vanguard, I had forgotten about that one as well.   That layout doesn't look very ergonomic to me.  I think I'd end up hitting all the wrong buttons.   But a Defender layout might do the trick.   Not that I'm any good at defender, but maybe I'd be better if I had a proper button layout

If you went with a spinner, I'd seriously look at a trigger stick since you could play a "plain" spinner game with your other setup.  Try a mockup similar to your existing panel but with dual joys that are centered, the visio template in place of the trackball, and a trigger stick in place of the 4-way.  Of course the trigger stick is going to cost as much (or more) than a trackball, so it might not be a viable option.

Good thoughts, although I should have mentioned that this cab will be in a different location than my current upright, so I'd rather have a normal balltop joystick than a trigger stick.

My obviously heavily biased opinion would be to take the button layout from our Classical Minions^TM panel and put it between top-fire sticks ala our Combat Minions^TM panel.

I'll take a look at that.

I'm thinking 'no spinner' at this point.  I just don't play that many spinner games even if I do have one lying around.   I'll probably go with 2-joysticks though, just for those couple games where 2-joys are imperative.    And even though I suck at Defender, I think I'll try a defender layout.

Thanks again for the comments.

[leapinlew]

Heres my latest arcades CP. It's 17.5" wide. Meant to play multi-williams

[quarterback]

(note for clarity: This was being typed while leapinlew's above post was posted.  In this post, I'm referring to the graphic included in this post, not leapinlew's)
I'm liking this one the best.   It's a Defender style layout but, unlike the multi-williams' I've seen, the buttons are between the two joysticks instead of on the far right.

It would allow me to play all my non-Defender games while standing basically centered (which I like) but also allows for the 2-joystick games.

My biggest concern is whether or not I'd be bumping the "hyperspace" button at the bottom while playing non-defender games.  But only a real mock up would let me know.     I could try moving the 'hyperspace' over to the right some more which might also give me a 4-button layout for those few 1-player games that want 4-buttons.

[quarterback]

Heres my latest arcades CP. It's 17.5" wide. Meant to play multi-williams

Dig it.   I like the fact your 'defender' joystick is centered (EDIT: Acutally, I think I'm wrong and the one on the far lef is the 'defender' joystick.  Either way it's probably not an issue since your CP is only 17")

So, on the right hand side, the two lowest buttons are "hyperspace' and "inviso"?     Have you tried this button placement?  Cuz, like I mentioned in the post that I was typing while you were posting,  I think I might want to move my 'hyperspace' over to the right some, similar to yours but I'm curious how it 'plays' having that one right below the other.

[NoOne=NBA=]

Being a much bigger fan of Asteroids than Defender, I would go with this layout.
It lets you play all the button games (Space Invaders, Phoenix, etc...) with buttons, rather than the joystick.

[leapinlew]

ahh....

What I like about yours is the sticks are centered for Robotron. Thats a good move.

I sort of let the art dictate my control placement. I opted for the controls to be more angled, and I almost have my CP done so I'll post pics of it in my project announcement.

I can totally dig wanting a defender style layout. If I built a 20" CP - I would probably have the space to do the sticks like you did, but I would've spent much more time getting the art to work. I downloaded my artwork from localarcade and modified it.

[leapinlew]

I forgot to mention... mine is 16" x 7". I don't know where I came up with the 17.5" number.  While the CP is 7" deep, only 6" is usable - which is why my hyperspace sits higher on the cp than you might think it should.

[quarterback]

What I like about yours is the sticks are centered for Robotron. Thats a good move.

I'm even going to center them a little more.  I did a Visio printout, put it on top of my current CP and put my hands on it (no buttons, just the printout).  I'm digging the general layout, but want those joysticks a little more to the left.    Just trying to get the best combo of keeping a single-joystick-n-buttons centered as well as the dual joystick setup.    My last layout worked pretty well, but a little smidge to the left will be a little better.

Also, it seems like the 'hyperspace' button won't be a problem at all.  I'll double-check with a cardboard mockup, but it appears to fall right under my palm if I was to use the 'reverse' button as my main/only button with a single-joystick game.

My current cab's CP (the one at the top) has some tricky spacing like that as well.  I actually moved a couple things by about 1/2" and my hands can use every control without interfering or bumping any other control.  Both the 49-way and the spinner are in places where my arms comfortably lie in between the lower controls.

Being a much bigger fan of Asteroids than Defender, I would go with this layout.
It lets you play all the button games (Space Invaders, Phoenix, etc...) with buttons, rather than the joystick.

I like your thinking.  I too am more of a two-button game fan than Defender  I'm going to mess with that idea.   

Thanks again for the comments y'all.
qb

[leapinlew]

What joysticks are you using?

[quarterback]

What joysticks are you using?

Wico 8-ways most likely.  I contemplated trying some other sticks, but if I'm going to go with a 2-joystick setup, I'll want both to be the same.   I'm pretty sure I have a couple wico 8-ways lying around and I probably even have the perfect-360 attachments for them.

I thought about buying a t-stick to try out the 4-way/8-way changeable action (I've never tried one before) and was originally planning on using a nintendo 8-way (when I was planning on making this a single joystick vertical cab) but somehow using 2 nintendo sticks for the double-joystick games doesn't seem right.   The Wico 8-ways just seem like the 'classic'  stick for me.  It's what I have in my other 2 cabs as well.

Did you have a thought/suggestion on this topic, leapinlew, or were you just curious?

[leapinlew]

I was curious because I almost went with the ultimarc 360's since they can change from 4/8 way on the fly with no intervention from the user. I cheaped out and went with some supers I had laying around with some replacement balltops from Tornado Terry.

The U360's look promising with the ability to change from 8 way, to 4 way to qbert diagonal without having to do anything.

Did you consider the U360's?

[quarterback]

Did you consider the U360's?

I did.  I actually only recently 'found out' about the U360s.  I was off the boards over the summer when they were initially introduced and discussed.  I'd seen people reference them since that point, but thought they were like the P360s (just the "ultimark version"  P360, U360... sounds similar to me).   It was only last week that I read through a couple threads about them and saw that they're a completely different beast.

Yeah, they look sweet, but they're also a little spendy.   I've got all this arcade crap lying around (Wicos, nintendo sticks, spinner, computer, 21" monitor etc etc etc) along with this cab, so I decided to put all my existing stuff together.   The only significant item I'm buying is an encoder from GGGear.

I do have an extra 49-way which, with the GPWiz49, can do some of the same things on the fly that  the U360 does (4way, 8way, Q-bert etc) but I don't particularly like the feel for every-game use.   It's great for Sinistar, which is how I'm using one now, but I wouldn't want it as my primary stick.

Like I said, I thought about buying something that had a physical 4-way/8-way restrictor for true 4-way 'feel' and ponyboy has the T-stick on sale for $10 but, in the end, I think I'll be happier using my 8-way wicos.  They just feel right for me and even though others vehemently disagree, I don't mind playing 4-way games (like pacman, DKong etc) with them.

[leapinlew]

Yeah, they look sweet, but they're also a little spendy.   I've got all this arcade crap lying around

I'm totally on board with what your saying. In fact, if I don't start using up my excess arcade equipment, I'll find another reason to build another cabinet. Thats the reason my latest(last?) cab is using supers I already own. Good luck with the build - I'm looking forward to seeing it in the project announcements.

[theCoder]

If I were to build another single player cab, I would put in one 4-8 way joystick, 3 buttons, a 3 inch trackball, and a spinner.  By replacing the 2nd joystick with a trackball, you can play a lot more of the modern games such as bowling and golf.  Not to mention it is a built in mouse for maintenance.  The spinner does not take up much room, but makes tempest and arkanoid style games play just like the original.  I got all this minus the spinner in an 8 by 18 inch CP.

[Crowquill]

If you're just going for a general, all-around layout, I prefer to try and keep it simple.

Changes to the layout below: Joysticks now approx. 12" apart ("regulation" Robotron standard). Obviously the buttons have been simplified. 98% of the time you'll only use 3, but adding the 4th gives you a bit more flexibility including Neo-Geo (which even without fighters makes up quite a few decent games).

I guess all of this depends on how many specific games you're worried about. The Defender layout has quite a few buttons, but I don't think it's the most flexible layout. I moved the joysticks for two reasons: to center things up more, and also Robotron was the only game you'd mentioned right away. You could even shift everything back over to the left a bit and add the spinner on the far right. Tempest had you using your right hand for the spinner anyway.

[leapinlew]

He mentioned robotron and crazy climber, so he must want the 2nd joystick.

As for the spinner... there is such a small amount of games to play with the spinner that I use the trackball just fine for the few games I play. Tempest and puzz loop mainly.

[quarterback]

Thanks for all the replies.  I've been completely torn on the button layout and messing with it for the last day.    I guess I'm not the only one to engage in the eternal struggle between "I want to play every game known to man" and "I don't want my CP to look like a Quasicade"

The part that's killing me is the Defender layout.  Again, I'm not really a defender player but I never will be if I don't have the right layout.   So I start with a 'defender' layout and then things start getting nutty....

This was a much easier plan when I was going with a vertical setup.  I actually spent a lot of time going through the entire .55 vertical game list and playing everything to see what I wanted.  Then, because of the cab structure and size of monitor, I had to go horizontal.   I'm not against that decision at all, but because of all the new game options, I'm having to rethink my CP layout.

As soon as I realized it was going to be a Horizontal cab, I started thinking about the dual joysticks etc etc etc

  By replacing the 2nd joystick with a trackball, you can play a lot more of the modern games such as bowling and golf.  Not to mention it is a built in mouse for maintenance. 

I agree with the trackball statements, although this cab will be running an old eMachine PC, so things like Golden Tee are not even on the table.    But yeah, having a trackball on my other CP is a plus, although I don't play golf games and I don't really play centipede, it is cool that people CAN play centipede, and I do ocasionally play Missile Command.   The other plus of having 'mouse' control is very nice, but I'm hoping that I'll get this cab set up and just leave it (IOW, not need the mouse control)   

The big downsides to the trackball are space and cost.  It eats up a chunk of CP real estate, plus it ain't cheap.  It's not like just dropping $10 on a 4way/8way joystick.   Also, in the end, I'm more likely to play Crazy Climber, BattleZone, Robotron than I am to play Centipede.


In the end, I think I'll probably mount 2 joysticks and three buttons, play with that for a while and then see if I want to add more.   I'm waiting on a GPWiz from GGGear but as soon as it gets here, I think I'm going to want to hook things up so my final CP layout decision might wait....

or maybe I'll hook up a TON of buttons and then scale back when I realize there are buttons I never use....

AAAGGGGGHHHH!!!!! 

[leapinlew]

AAAGGGGGHHHH!!!!! 

Agreed!

My only real solution was to build multiple machines.... The horror...

[quarterback]

AAAGGGGGHHHH!!!!! 

Agreed!

My only real solution was to build multiple machines.... The horror...

Well, I think I've come up with an okay layout.  I'm not thrilled with the button color combination because it looks a little gumbally, but I'm not really sure how to deal with that right now and I'm guessing it'll look better if it wasn't in a plain piece of cardboard (IOW, with some art)

It gives me a Defender layout, plus the ability to play 2-joystick games, plus the right-left buttons that NoOne=NBA= suggested.

It's funny that I ended up with a variation on the 6 button layout I initially didn't even understand.  GoPodular.com was right, it's a combination of a defender/Vanguard layout.  I spread it out some because I think it looks a little better and I think it still works.  We'll see, I guess.

I may have to shift everything down a little bit for in-cab-clearance, but I'm ready for more comments if anybody has them.

[quarterback]

It's already looking better, thanks to some new photoshopped red balltops (which were a big improvement almost immediately) and RetroJames' artwork

Before


After


RetroJames' CP that I 'borrowed' from

[NoOne=NBA=]

The only problem I see is that the reverse button is going to be a big stretch.
When I built a Defender CP using a 4-way stick, I had to actually knock the corner off of the joystick with a Dremel tool to get the button to fit in a comfortable position.

[leapinlew]

The only problem I see is that the reverse button is going to be a big stretch.
When I built a Defender CP using a 4-way stick, I had to actually knock the corner off of the joystick with a Dremel tool to get the button to fit in a comfortable position.

At first I put my reverse as close as I could to the joystick but it felt too close. So, I moved it and I think prefer mine a little further:



I know what your saying though - it looks like it would be too far (and it's further than an original defender), but it seems comfortable.

[quarterback]

The only problem I see is that the reverse button is going to be a big stretch.
When I built a Defender CP using a 4-way stick, I had to actually knock the corner off of the joystick with a Dremel tool to get the button to fit in a comfortable position.

Thanks for that comment, NoOne.   I ended up doing something to solve that potential problem, but before I did that, I made a 2nd mock-up using the more-compact 6-button layout

The 1st mockup had the 'diamond' buttons more spread out.  Aesthetically, I liked it, but the 4-buttons were a little too fra from each other to make that portion of the CP very useable.  1st layout seen here:


So, I went for the compact 6-button layout like you can see in this pic:


But I didn't like that either.  My inclination is to primarily use the buttons that aren't part of the diamond (the three red ones in the first pic, above).  For most games, I would want to use those, but with this compact 6-button setup, I was feeling 'crowded' and my fngers would bump up against or lay on those other buttons.    I didn't like it.

I was trying to figure out which setup bothered me LESS and I came back to check this thread.   What I decided to do is to move the left-most three buttons a little more to the left.  Not only making them closer to the left joystick but also moving them away from the 'primary-three' that I want to use.   I did this primarily because of my desire to keep the 3-primary-buttons separate but it also has the benefit of putting the 'reverse' button a little closer to the left joystick (almost as close as I could get it.

I made a third mockup and decided to go with that.    And here is the 'finished' CP:



I like it well enough.   I guess it will come down to whether or not I ever play Defender      Like I said, I'm not a bid 'defender guy' yet I ended up partially basing my CP around that layout.   I'm also not sure how frequently I'll use the right/left white buttons, but what the hell.  I figured if I was going to do a Defender layout I might never use, then why not add those other buttons as well

I've got some translucent leafs I'll proably put in here as well, but first things first.  I need to get my new encoder hooked up, everything wired and the computer running to even really test this.

Thanks again for all the comments.
qb