Melamine

[shmokes]

Well, I thought that 1up's idea of using black melamine for a cabinet was great, but there's a problem:

NOBODY CARRIES IT!!!

I have checked with nine different lumber yards (the only ones within a one hour drive from me) plus I checked Lowe's and Home Depot.  Everyone has one of two possible answers:

1 - "We do not carry it and cannot order it in."    or

2 - "We do not carry it, but can order it in if you order seventy 4'x8' sheets instead of three.

The guy at Home Depot was kind enough to let me know that while they can't sell me Melamine prelaminated plywood, they do carry laminate so I could feel free to do it myself  

While we're on the subject of wood, if my control panels are only going to be 1/2" thick would it be a good idea to buy oak plywood for strength?  I was told that if I buy oak it'll be just like any other plywood I buy but with a thin oak veneer so it would not provide any appreciable extra strength.

[_Iz-]

Oak plywood is no stronger than any other plywood and is many times the price for 2 layers of oak on each face less than 1/16" thick...

Maybe try at some places that make kitchen cabinets or furniture. Maybe they'd sell you some sheets for reasonable price.

Laminate would turn out to be quite a bit more expensive but is actually more durable and would be somewhat easier to work with. With laminate, you can cut out your parts, screw the cabinet together and then apply the laminate over top, trimming flush with a router and straight bit + guide bearing.

[shmokes]

You're right.  I was washing dishes about half an hour ago and it struck me.  I did a search for cabinet makers in my area on Qwestdex and about 15 minutes later found someone who can order the material for me.  One reason I am leaning toward Melamine is so the cabinet looks relatively nice on the inside as well as the outside.  I'll actually still be using laminate on top of the melamine laminet already there.

So, it looks like it would be pretty much useless to use oak for my control panels.  Still, I want to use the stongest wood I can since they will be relatively thin.  What's best?  MDF?  Waferboard?  Plywood?  Particle Board?

[_Iz-]

Plywood or OSB are the strongest. (OSB is Oriented Strand Board). MDF would also be fine depending on the size, and any of what you mentioned would be acceptable if you are covering both sides in laminate.

[shmokes]

Well...I won't be covering both sides in laminate, per se.  I'll cover the outer sides with laminate and the inner-sides will already be covered, but I don't think that the melamine laminate would offer any kind of structural support.  It's really thin.  Also, I don't plan on using melamine for the control panels.  The melamine I ordered is 3/4" thick and I'm only going to use 1/2" thick wood for my control panel, plus a 1/8" laminate and 1/8" Lexan so 3/4" molding will fit perfectly.

[CitznFish]

anyone have pics of what melamine looks like?

[shmokes]

Go to www.1uparcade.com

His cabinet is made of black melamine.  The sides are covered with yellow laminate, but just browse through his pictures.  Any part of his cabinet that is black (aside from things like the monitor bezel and coin door   ) is melamine, unaltered from the way it was when he bought it.  Melamine comes prelaminated in a variety of colors.  I believe it is generally particle board, but I suppose it could be MDF or Plywood as well with a melamine laminate.  The nice thing about it is it comes laminated on both sides.  The most common place you may have seen it is in entertainment centers.  If they are black instead of wood-grain, you are likely looking at melamine.

[_Iz-]

You'd be surprised how much a layer of laminate on each side of a board can increase the rigidity!

One thing to be aware of is laminate will shrink over time. If you laminate only one side of a board it *WILL* cup and warp. This would be especially apparent on a control panel top that was only attached on one side (say with a hinge). Your side panels should be OK because they are firmly attached to a framework which will keep them mostly straight.

At work we *always* laminate both sides of a board because of this. If the back is not exposed/seen we use a "liner" grade laminate - basically just laminate without a nice finish (cheaper) - keeps both sides of the board in balance.

(PS: I'm a cabinetmaker by trade)

[shmokes]

Wow...I was unaware of this.  How long does it take for this warping you speak of to be visible?

[_Iz-]

I've seen it happen as quickly as a day or two.

Once it happens you can't straighten it back, it's way too strong.

[shmokes]

Okay...well this will come in handy for my control panels which I plan to laminate (and will be made from regular plywood), but what about the sides of my cabinet which will already have a melamine laminate on both sides?  I plan to laminate the outside, is the existing laminate on the inside enough, or should it be balanced?

And how about Wilsonart's metalaminates?  Would the ones based on metals be prone to the same shrinkage as the others that are based on, um, some kind of plastic/formica?

[OSCAR]

In response to the original post...

http://www.uniboard.com/en/index.html

Check for a Uniboard distributor near you.  They actually specialize in melamine, and see if a distributor can get you just a couple of sheets of what you are looking for.  They have some fantastic woodgrains.  Here's a pic of a handbuilt cocktail made from Uniboard woodgrain melamine.  

http://www.oscarcontrols.com/tmp/cocktail-midway.jpg

[CitznFish]

i wonder if melamine if preferable to laminating your own MDF? cost wise or looks wise...

[_Iz-]

The melamine would not be enough to balance the laminate. They have totally different properties. You could minimize some of the problem by letting the materials acclimate to your enviroment before contruction. (basically have everything sit inside your house for a week or 2 before building). The problem would also be minimized on the sides because you are screwing them to a rigid framework before laminating.

However, the ideal solution is to laminate both sides on all pieces or don't use laminate...

[shmokes]

Thanks for your help...it's been very informative.  I think I will follow your advice and laminate every piece on both sides if they are not srewed into the 2x4 framework.  I'd do those ones too, but it's so expensive.  Also I wouldn't want to add so much thickness that there was overhang past the T-molding.

In response to CitznFish, from a cost (and time)standpoint Melamine is MUCH preferable to laminating yourself (assuming that you have no plans to put a second laminate over the top of the melamine prelaminate as I will be doing ).  From a looks standpoint it would depend, but most likely the separate laminate wins if for no other reason, variety.  Head over to www.wilsonart.com to get an idea of the vast array of choices you have (basically infinite if you include custom laminates -- and I don't know why you wouldn't).  Melamine isn't offered in nearly as many varieties and colors as stand-alone laminates.

[_Iz-]

Make sure you sand the melamine with some rough (80?) grit sandpaper before you try applying the laminate over it. All sheen should be removed but you don't have to sand right thru it down to the original board. A belt sander can really help make short work of it. If you have to do it by hand you're gonna need a few breaks...  

[MameFan]

> Plywood or OSB are the strongest. (OSB is Oriented Strand Board).

OSB?  Seriously?  That's the thin roofing material (sometimes siding as well) that is VERY easy to break thru by pressing against it.  It's also NOT very good to paint as it's very uneven.

Comparing 3/4" plywood and 3/4" MDF and 3/4" particle board, the best is MDF, then Plywood, then Particle board.

MDF is highly/easily paintable. Particle board needs a good couple primer coats sanded many times, same with plywood unless you want the grain to show thru.

I just built a bookcase out of MDF (9.5" deep x 31" shelves) and it's a lot stronger than plywood is in a shallow depth.  Larger sheets and Plywood is as sturdy.

[Ledbetter]

 3/4" OSB is actually comparable to plywood in strength, but I agree it's unusable for a cabinet. Not only is it too uneven, you would also have to deal with the formaldehyde smell.

  Does anyone know if Melamine or laminate be painted? (like painting on side art?) Would you have to try and sand a rough surface on the part you were painting or is there a type of paint that can just be painted on the smooth surface and still hold up?

 Also, If you decide to paint your cab insted of use laminate, take a look a MDO signboard. Its plywood with a smooth paper overlay. Probably what I will use if laminate can't be reliably painted.

[u_rebelscum]

> Plywood or OSB are the strongest. (OSB is Oriented Strand Board).

OSB?  Seriously?

Seriously.  I've seen them come in 1/8" up to 1" thick.  3/4" OSB has the same strength rating as 3/4" plywood.  Plywood is a little stronger than OSB if it (plywood) doesn't have knots, weaker if it has a lot of knots.

That's the thin roofing material (sometimes siding as well) that is VERY easy to break thru by pressing against it.  It's also NOT very good to paint as it's very uneven.

I'm not sure about the roofing material you mention (SheetRock, maybe?).  But, yah, OSB isn't very smooth.  Laminating it might work.

[bionicbadger]

Well, I thought that 1up's idea of using black melamine for a cabinet was great, but there's a problem:

NOBODY CARRIES IT!!!

Hmmm, odd.
I live in Edmonton, AB, Canada, and I know that at least 2 of the Home Depot stores in my city stock 5/8" black melamine (the only size black melamine they carry).
   

[_Iz-]

You can also get hybrid board with 3 layer OSB core laid out in alternating directions (like plywood) with a particleboard layer on top and bottom for a smoother finish...

[Dave_K.]

Ok, someone explain to my why you would want to laminate over the top of MDF? Especially if you can find black melamine?

[rampy]

Ok, someone explain to my why you would want to laminate over the top of MDF? Especially if you can find black melamine?

you ahve a good point (why waste the smooth surface of MDF---> should use plywood to laminate over probably)...

I can see wanting to use laminate over melamine as melamine is softer/easier to scratch...

*shrug*

rampy

[_Iz-]

Plywood will sometimes telegraph when you laminate over it. (Telegraph means make any lumps and bumps in the plywood show up on the face of the laminate). Severity depends on the color of laminate and the type/thickness. Most commonly used types of laminate are GP (general purpose) and PF (postforming). GP is thicker and will telegraph less, PF is thinner, usually used for bending but will readily show any surface imperfections of the substrate. I'm not sure what grade the local yards stock, could be either/or depending where you buy.

I would assume that the original poster is using laminate over black melamine because:
A. He had a hard enough time finding 2 sided black melamine never mind trying to locate 1 sided.
B. It's easier to assemble as you can screw everything together right through the sides, fill the holes and laminate over top.

[PCC]

As per: http://www.formica.com/howtospecify.jsp?chip_id=34
Laminate should be bonded to a suitable substrate such as medium-density fiber board (MDF) or a 45# density particle board.  Plywood is not recommended for use.  Use backing sheets as necessary to balance assembly and prevent warping.

I believe that they recommend MDF because it contracts and expands most like laminate.

[rampy]

As per: http://www.formica.com/howtospecify.jsp?chip_id=34
Laminate should be bonded to a suitable substrate such as medium-density fiber board (MDF) or a 45# density particle board.  Plywood is not recommended for use.  Use backing sheets as necessary to balance assembly and prevent warping.

I believe that they recommend MDF because it contracts and expands most like laminate.

I guess I stand corrected... although my can of wilson contact cement lists plywood as an acceptable substrate... and I think if you bought decent plywood it would be "OK" (i.e. not knotted up 3 ply on sale stuff from HD) so... yeah.. mdf.. that's the ticket...

er...

rampy

[SNAAAKE]

Ok, someone explain to my why you would want to laminate over the top of MDF? Especially if you can find black melamine?

Melamine is not as GOOD/THICK as laminate and if you wanna be very anal about your cabinet then you laminate the whole thing and ya dont have to worry about any chiping..

I personally would avoid melamine because I don have a clue how to cut it without chiping the sides so I would just get some chepo mdf or ply wood then laminate the whole thing.

Thats just me though ...if anyone here CAN cut melamine without chipping the corners then thats fine.  

[_Iz-]

They recommend MDF or particle board because the surface is smooth. (No telegraphing). They are also structurally stable (not much expansion or contraction).

We have used plywood to laminate over but it was specially designed stuff called superply. It had all surface knots and imperfections filled and was sanded very smooth.

[FractalWalk]

Ok, someone explain to my why you would want to laminate over the top of MDF? Especially if you can find black melamine?

Well, I plan on doing it because I don't want my cabinet to be black or painted.

[shmokes]

Ok, someone explain to my why you would want to laminate over the top of MDF? Especially if you can find black melamine?

Because it means the inside of your cabinet is nice and smooth and black instead of bare wood.  Obviously this effect can be achieved with non-prelaminated wood, but it's extra work.  I would laminate over the sides because I don't want the outside of my cabinet to be plain.  I want to use colors and the colors I want to use are not offered as a Melamine prelaminate.  God, it's expensive, though.  In the neighborhood of $38 per 4'x8' sheet.