UPDATE: Started Kick-boxing MMA yesterday

[Lutus]

 

"and knowing is half the battle!!!"

[Dexter]

I'm more familiar with ITF as it's what I hold a black belt and instruct in. A Basic class would consist of warming up/stretching, floorwork i.e. single movements/combinations along the length and breadth of the hall, patterns, sparring (no headgear or chestguards a la WTF) and warming down.

[ErikRuud]

That's entirely dependent on the teacher, how they teach, and how you learn. 

This statement is true of any martial arts school, anywhere, regardless of style.
You could name any style and be able to find good schools and bad schools.


My daughter and I have been learning Shotokan Karate for two years now through the ISKC.  The emphasis of our training probably leans a little more towards tournament fighting, than street fighting, but not as far as most TKD schools seem to be in the US.  Will my training prepare me for UFC? No, and I don't want it to.  Am I in better shape than I was two years ago? Most definitely.  Am I better able to defend myself on the street? Yes.

I'm more familiar with ITF as it's what I hold a black belt and instruct in. A Basic class would consist of warming up/stretching, floorwork i.e. single movements/combinations along the length and breadth of the hall, patterns, sparring (no headgear or chestguards a la WTF) and warming down.

Our classes follow the same pattern, but we do use some pads (no chestguards) for sparring.

I am currently a green belt or 6th Kyu.  For those that don't know (I am sure that the posters in this thread do), belt colors and relative ranking vary between styles, organizations and schools, although starting at white and going to mastering at black are almost universal.  I even know of a school that has a camouflage belt for one of their ranks.

I have classes twice a week and I also assist with the lower belts in my daughters 10th kyu through 8th kyu class.

TKD defense is not made to defend Muay Thai, especially the round kick. But I am sure you knew that already  plus the stance gives up the lead leg for a round kick.

I can't speak for TKD on this, but Shotokan has an even lower and longer stance.  We practice front leg kicks all the time.  One of the senior instructors in the ISKC is said to have a devastating front leg round kick.  We also practice blocking round kicks.  One of my favorites so far is block, leg trap, sweep combo.




To address some of Lutus' original comments.

It will get worse before it gets better, but it is so cool when you realise it is getting better.  When I first started, I was sore and stiff for a couple days after class, and that was without any contact at that point. Then one morning I was getting ready for work and I realised "Hey, I don't hurt today!".  Another one is when you spar with a higher belt and do OK.  Although I did rather badly on Monday against one of my equals.

In our group, you wouldn't have been thrown into the deep end quite like that.  When we have new students that are not starting in the beginner class for whatever reason, one of the instructors or assistants works with them separately to get them through some of the basics.

[ChadTower]

Being sore is different than actual bone damage, though.  His lower leg probably looks like he broke it and is bruised from knee to ankle... and then after his foot will be purple when the pooled blood falls down to it.

[Crax]

Now I try and go and train with Jeremy Horn and his drew in SLC once or twice a month. We always go up when Tim Silvia or Matt Hughes is in town.

/wave
From Utah here myself.  I trained some BJJ up at the OFA in Ogden where Jeremy would teach once a week.  Really good teacher.  Once I get some more time/money, I may go to Elite in SLC a couple times a week for classes as I would like to get back into it.

[clanggedin]

Now I try and go and train with Jeremy Horn and his drew in SLC once or twice a month. We always go up when Tim Silvia or Matt Hughes is in town.

/wave
From Utah here myself.  I trained some BJJ up at the OFA in Ogden where Jeremy would teach once a week.  Really good teacher.  Once I get some more time/money, I may go to Elite in SLC a couple times a week for classes as I would like to get back into it.

Say hello to Rich Layton for me next time your are up at OFA. We's a blast to hang around in Las Vegas at the UFCs with. Good times... Good times...

[Lutus]

Well, ends up I can only go to the BJJ (grappling) class now due to a work schedule conflict.  No more kickboxing for me right now.

You are correct above in saying that it nearly looks like I broke my legs.  Looks like I rubbed ash on my shin bones they were so black and blue.

I enjoy the grappling more than the kickboxing for now but would eventually like to get back into that once time permits.

In my grappling class, one of the Navy Seals is also a trainer for this... http://www.crossfit.com/

He is now in charge of "exercise" for about ten or fifteen minutes every 2-hour class session.  I now officially feel like I have been beaten with a bat and left for dead.    But in a good way.

My goal was to lose weight and exercise and I already have more energy.

[Lutus]

Just wanting to update on my progress after around 3 months.

Lost twenty pounds and am ever so close to having a six-pack.  It is unbelievable the difference I feel.

I am taking, for the record, 2 and 1/2 hours of Jiu-Jitsu/Sambo three days a week.

Oh, no drinks, only water.  And no desserts.  But it has been worth it!

[ChadTower]

Awesome.  I started, never got completely signed on, just didn't have time to make the commitment (translation:  guess I don't want it badly enough right now).

2.5 hours three times a week?  How much is that program costing?

[Lutus]

$100 dollars a month.

Thankfully I was able to find a dojo where the instructor didn't care about belts, or hidden fees or anything.  He just loves the sport and wants us to love it as well.

[ChadTower]

That's pretty sweet.  As with anything else in MA, if you wanna do it, you gotta pay through the nose.

[Xiaou2]

Well, I have to put in my 2 cents   heh

 On Fight Science,  Those results were not very accurate to describe relative
arts forces.

 For one reason, the chinese guy was short and not hugely bulked.  Whereas the
boxer was much bigger, taller, bulkier.   

 The chinese guy threw a 'short range punch'  from about only 7" back...  whereas
the boxer threw a full-cockback strike.   

 The Kungfu guys power supposed was arroung 600lbs of  force.  The boxers 1000.
However, what would have happened should the KungFu guy been as big as the
boxer in mass?  My guess is that the Kungfu Strike would have been superior
if not the same as the boxers strike.    One thing about short range power,
is that is more usefull and less likely to be blocked,  because its not
"Telegraphic".  You cant see it comming like you can with some wind-up
swing motion.

 The ninjitsu guys 'Dim Mak' strike is also a close range strike, and they failed to mention the
forces at work.  They simply stated that the forces were that of a 35mph car
crash.    KungFu also has Dim Mak, tho maybe this guy didnt do it, or they chose
to only show the ninjitsu guys version.   

 ***

 As for Shaolin Goju..  I did a search quickly.   It looks like BS to me.   For one,
Shaolin is from China.   The site that showcased this style.. was Japanese!
(Karate)   

 From www.gallopskarate.com/about_shinjimasu.html

Brief Timeline of Events
1890    Kanryo Higaonna introduces Naha-Te and a breathing exercise called Sanhin
1927    Chojun Miyagi founds Goju Ryu Karate
1930    Gogen Yamaguchi establishes Japanese Goju Ryu headquarters in Tokyo
1953    Shaolin Goju is founded by Grandmaster Charles Dixon
1959    Peter Urban introduces Goju Ryu to the United States
1960    Anthony Mirakian brings Okinawan Goju Ryu(Meibukan) to the United States
1973    Ron Van Clef forms Chinese Goju
 
 To me, This is sad.   The art was formed at 1973,  by a non asian... whos credentials
in ANY system cant seem to be found.    Most likely a westerner, who tried to
learn some chinese are overseas.. and was most likely, given the dillluted
and incorrect versions of the Real techniques.  Chinese were not big on
sharing thier secrets to forigners.   If forced, or were trying to be nice,
they gave out litteral BS.  Some functional stuff, and some that was all
wrong.  And missing the very potent  'Keys'  to making things
powerfull and effective.

  In fact, I believe much of Karate was formed by this method.  Japenese
trying to watch and learn KungFu stylist, and figure out what they were
doing...  OR,  were actually taught (forced), and gave out the BS. 
As Karate is super watered down BS compared to Any version of
KungFu.

 ***

 Next, I will comment on your Schools (kickboxing) training methods...

 To throw a person into sparring the first day..  seems ultra BS.

 That lacks any responsibility at all.  Its mindless, and shows poor
skill levels in teaching and depth of knowledge.  A student needs
a proper foundation before going into battle mode.  Id be willing
to bet that there are countless injuries that occur when newbies
arrive.  Some of these poor guys will walk away, try to heal,
and never return.

 That and the way thay they conditioned is not good.    Its better
to 'gradually' condition rather than to just smash limbs.
(thats later)

 Improper conditioning can be a real problem.  Can cause much more pain
and complications as the bone may get built up unevenly.

 ***

 BJJ is good for certain situations..  however, not in many real
fights.    For example,  for multple attackers, it will fail very
quickly.  As you cant roll on the ground with one guy when the
others will be  there stomping thier feet into your head.

 It also lacks a 'Safe'  and skilled entry system.   It goes on
the principle that you should be able to dive in past a
strike.     The problem is, is that a human strike can move
faster than a Cobra strike (Fight Science)  at something like
40 feet per second.   Basically, its a split second.

 However, to move your entire body and dive at them
requires much longer than a split second.  As you cant
accelerate that much mass that quickly.  It opens the
possibility that youll take a Serious blow to the head or
neck.. which can be severe to fatal.

 ***

  For a workout, getting in shape and losing weight.. I think
boxing would probably be better.   Less sensless injuries overall,
and maybe more usefull skills learned.

 However, I personally chose to learn  Wing Chun.   A
Chinese close range combat system.   It uses an
advanced system of developement that allows one
to have a 'Safe' entry.   

 Some big Features in the style:

- Combination of Soft and Hard techniques, that you adjust on the fly.
   (able to defeat larger stronger people by using soft techniques)

- Use of "Dual hand" Simultainious techniques. 
Can Even attack with 3 limbs at once.
 (IE:  One hand Intercepts(Blocks),  other punches, and one leg Kicks
low twords the attackers legs or knees)

- Incredibly Fast and Effecient.   Over 2 hits per sec,  and each
strike over well 200lbs of force each.  Very little energy needed
or expended.. as it uses economy of motion. (not so
good for weight loss  heh)

- Insane Offensive and Defensive ability.  Use of two hands to
breakdown gaurds, trap limbs, and enter smart and safe. 
Ability to intercept attacks and attack at the same time.  If
a limb gets by, its intercepted with the rear 'backup' hand.


 Ive gained quite a strong ability of WC in my past.  Ive long
since been out of it tho, as I have too many interest, and not
enough time.   

 At my highest level,  I was able to take on high level
belts, even instructors, and make them look bad.  They
barely could touch me.. and I was scoring constantly.

 The style is so much more advantageous...  that I was
able to defend myself very well with a single hand at times,
when I got board of the lack of challenge.

 The accuracy, speed and power generation were insane.
I was able to stop my fist from a full speed attack, when a
poor attacker was accidentally charging in twords it,
thus great control of accuracy. 

 As for power..   I tried not to utilize it.. unless someone
got too cocky and or used too much power against me.  I also
always warned them many times.    I was able to Dizzy
3 highly skilled artist with a short range strike, at only
liike 1/10 the power available.   Upon which time, they
needed 5 mins to recover.
( 2 jujitsu grappplers, and one Capoera/Kook Sul Wan  guy)

 Also, a really persistent --I'm attempting to get by the auto-censor and should be beaten after I re-read the rules-- pushed me too far, and
after too many warnings,  I decided to give him a little
'''taste"  of what I was capable of. 

 He would always rush into my strikes, then plow me into
the ground.   I always told him,  those strikes would have
knocked him out, or broken his legs.  He never yeilded.

 One day, we sparred..   "Fight" ..   and he takes one
step twords me.  I immediately target his Knee with my
Knee Stomp Kick.   The kick is send, and lands as soon
as his leg touched the floor.   I added just a tiny bit
of Snap force.    He went down.  The fight lasted exactly
1 second.

  He Stayed on the ground
grasping his knee in Tears.  Didnt get up for 7 minutes...
and then hobbled the entire night.   Told me it was even
worse after his adrenalin wore off later that night..  almost
hospital worthy.   We are still on good terms however,
and he now is very carefull of knee strikes   As well
as now using the strike himself   heh.


 Lutus, After you get to a decent level of shape and want
to progress in a much more skilled fashion,  I highly suggest
looking to take up some Wing Chun classes.   There are
a few branches..  Some are called  Ving Tsun... and some
have other alternative but simular sounding names.

[clanggedin]

OK.. I have to chime into the last commet about BJJ. Yes, being on the ground is the last place you want to be in a fight with multiple attackers, but BJJ does have stand up techniques. It is Jui-jitsu and does have throws and locks from the standing position. As for it not being street effective, Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu was developed on the streets of Brazil and is very effective. If it wasn't so good they wouldn't be teaching it to police pofficers and military forces. It is what they teach Navy SEALs currently.

I have also witnessed hundreds of MMA and Street fights and have never seen one person receive a sever blow to the head or neck during the take down. When someone is charging at you it is very difficult to hit them in the head and prevent their force from hitting you.

Wing Chun is a great style and I have even incorporated sticky hands into my training regimen, but it is not "the end all be all art". You will sooner or later need to incorporate ground skills or you will be in trouble if the fight goes to the ground against an grappler with high school wrestling experience.

As for being thrown into sparring one day one... When I first started in BJJ I sparred on day 1. It's nothing like full contact sparring in TKD or other arts, but you learn techniques as you spar . It's the reason why I stayed with that art til for 10+ years.

BTW.. Royce Graice fought Jason Delucia a Wing Chun "master" in UFC 2 and won by armbar.

BJJ 1 WC 0 lol

BJJ FTW!!!

[ChadTower]

So does it count that Royce Gracie lost so easily to Matt Hughes this year?   

[Xiaou2]

 
 This is what little kids reply. (clanggedin)  They chose to alter the real truth behind thier
corrupt version of it...  mostly due to personal Ego.

  BJJ may have come from jiu jitsu,  but now, its rare to see anyone use that
aspect of it.  I bet its not even trained to any degree of its former art.  A
watered down version of it for sure.

 And, even so..   A grappler has to get past a strike range.   Jiu-Jitsu's strike ability
is Nil..  Its why they have to sit on top of thier opponents, and after 20minutes,
might do enough damage to knock them out... maybe.   

 Thier blocking ability? Non existent... to Severely poor.
This is the worst of all weaknesses in real combat.   Especially when
more than one opponent attacks!

 I have also witnessed hundreds of MMA and Street fights
and have never seen one person receive a sever blow to the head or neck
during the take down.

 Just because you havent seen it, doesnt mean Squat.   Ive done it several
times.   Most these SPORT fighters are Poorly trained.  Thier accuracy is Crap. 
Thier power is lost before it even gets to the strike... if it even lands at all.

 These fighters are trained wattered down arts.  Yeah, they learn many
techniques from many arts...  and yet,  they never fully master any of
them!   You can see from thier poor ballance, sloppy clumbsy and
slow kicks, poor power and misses in strikes..   how Horrifically
crappy they are.

  According to a recent documentary, a KungFu strike travels faster
than a Cobra strike.   Something like 40ft per second.      Being that
anyone in the WC system, and other styles such as Snake, can throw
over two of these strikes per second says a lot.   A lot about how
fast youd have to be to get past them unharmed.  Can you move
your 'entire' body 40ft in a sec of time?

Thats not even counting the speed and damage of properly thrown front
snap kicks, Shaolin Toe Stab Kicks, and Knee Stomp Kicks. 
Properly thrown means fast as a quick jab, competely ballanced,
and powerfull enought to break bones.

 Jiu-Jitsu's record on the streets?  I doubt very well.   BJJ,
even less.   Brazils never been known for massive
violence either.   Yet somewhere like Indonesia...
thats a different story.

 Try KungFu's record in the battlefeilds and wilderness,
for THOUSANDS of years worth of time to develop.
 
  Thousands of years of wars, personal fights, thug attacks
and robberies, personal gaurd trainings, shaolin
temple trainings, and much more.

 Wing Chun is a great style and I have even incorporated
sticky hands into my training regimen

 Yes, it is a great style.  Tho a bit cut down from its deeper KungFu roots,
its very effective in its speed of development and usable attributes in
real combat. 

 I have a hard time believeing your using WC, let alone know it
well to any degree.   Mostly from your descriptions.   

 Also, I never said WC was the end of all arts.  I said it was best
in real combat.  Thats my opinion, and my personal experience
with many fights against various styles. 

 I never said 'Do not learn BJJ or Grappling'  Did I?     Having
more arts under ones belt is always an advantage.   If you
do manage to get tossed to the ground, Bjjs a good ability to
have.   However, Diving right to the concrete, is Not a good
plan.. again, esp when theres the possibility of other
attackers.   You know... real life and death stuff.

 Also, if you realized what sticky hands was.. and how its really
used, you would know  that its basically
"combat speed standup grappling'.    Feeling and gaining advantage
mechanically, and exploiiting weakness in order to safely diffuse
energy and strike targets.  Yes, its limited compared to other
grapppling styles.  Theres very little to no locking and throwing.
Only temporary traps to cause openings in defenses.   However,
its Core, is a grappple type of system.   It simply illiminates
the less deadly throws and locks and opts for strikes instead.

 "ground against an grappler with high school
wrestling experience"

 This indicates your level of understanding of a True Street fight.

 There are plenty of thugs arround here, and maybe 1 in 2000 will
get on the ground and roll arround with you on purpose.   No...  instead,
most will box your head arround untill you fall on your own accord.   
Then, they will stomp kick your head arround like a soccor ball.

 My high school had us do some wrestling durring a portion
of gym class every year.  However, I, like many..  didnt like it
nor cared for it.   And, like many others, dont remember any
of it.   As for the people who actually took it seriously out
of gym class...   that 'group'  was the minority.   wrestling wasnt
a huge thing.  Most people prefered to take things like Soccor and
football.

 Furthermore, everyone pretty much knew that wrestling wasnt
real fighting.    The huge majority of fights are won and lost from
the standup position.   
*
 When someone is charging at you it is very difficult
to hit them in the head and prevent their force from hitting you

  Heh,  you really dont get it.   A full throttle Run?!   How many people
have confrontations from 50ft away..   and the guy sprints at you?!

 And, IF that happened, it VERY easy to sidestep the attack safely.  At
high momentum, a body can not change direction quickly.

 You do not HIT a charging target full on.  Instead, you either hit when
they have been evaded/redirected, from the side.  Or,   you do not hit them at all,
and just sidestep... then rush into a followup.

 BUT...

  YOU CAN hit a person square on from thier short burst forwards.   In fact,
Ive done it over and over again.    If you are getting plowed over, it was cause
you lacked the power in your strike, and you do not have good ballance,
strength and leverage gained from proper training excercises.   You must also
remember to use footwork as well as sensativity. Also,  Once the strike lands,
if that guy in big and moving fast, you need to get out of the center... because
his mass will still move forwards even after struck.   Yeah, hes probably
out cold from the strike..if not worse...  but still falling twords you.
That is where proper footwork & chi sao come into play.

"It's the reason why I stayed with that art til for 10+ years."
 
 Wow, you needed 10yrs of that?! 

 Sparring alone will not help you to learn.  In fact, it can hinder progress..
as you can not repeat the technique over and over when you are under
pressure of time and pain... and spots where no oppertunity exists.
 
 This is why WC, and many other Chinese arts use a 2 person
drill set.   Instead of hazzardously battleing,  you practive
contact constanty.  You apply speed and power when you
progress in skills.  Full contact Sparring is done, later when
both fighters are actually competent and skilled.  This prevents
sensless training injuries... and speeds up the learning process.

  BJJ is known to be one of the most high injury arts...   That is,...
durring Training Injuries!   People seem to want to hurt each other
to proove a point.   They will stress your spine and joints to unhealthy
levels, just to proove Ego.    One training injury can take you out
of the arts for half a years time.  By that time, your skills will have dulled
and maybe fogotten...  and you may not wish to play again.

 And why waste your body away getting injured in training?! 
Most likly getting permanent injuries for no good reason!  WHat
a joke.

 
 BTW.. Royce Graice fought Jason Delucia a
Wing Chun "master" in UFC 2 and won by armbar.


 The only WC guy that fought in those sport comps was not a
master in my opinion.   I saw his actions, and they were a joke.
I fight better than him any day of the week.

 Also, this is again the argument of a little kid.  One who
doesnt understand the basic realities.   Or does, but
chooses to ignor them, favoring to retort to a
low level grade school mud slinging.


 One fighter does Not represent the art of WC.   One Master
does not mean they ARE in fact the best or even correct.

 A few fights do not give accurate results against one style
vs another.   

 Sport fight victories never portray real fights.  So thier results
dont even count twords Anything.  These fights are limited in
their rules and overall potentials of situations.   IE: There
are over 40 rules regaurding where you can not strike
in the UFC. (and soon to climb)

  Your BJJ does not represent an art that is based on real
combat.  It has no weapons training, no standup range,
no blocking, no strike training, no conditioning, no
multiple attacker training or validity.   Its an immature
and limited system..  much like the people who claim its
superioity.

 


 

[ChadTower]

  Your BJJ does not represent an art that is based on real
combat.  It has no weapons training, no standup range,
no blocking, no strike training, no conditioning, no
multiple attacker training or validity.   Its an immature
and limited system..  much like the people who claim its
superioity.

That's about right... dude didn't have to go off for a half hour to say "BJJ has become a specialized sport fighting style".  That is what it is to most people and most teachers in the US.  A quick learning method for implementing and defending submissions in a one on one combat sport.

Relax.  You can't go criticizing the ego of other trainees while waving the flag of your own like that. 

[Xiaou2]

 ChadTower,

   Sorry man,   but im WAY tired of these BJJ  a$$es dissing other styles and
training methods.    Ever listen to the UFC comentary?   They insult
tradiational arts all the time.   Saying that this is the first time in thousands
of years that the arts have progressed to a much higher level!   What a
joke.   These people need to be put in thier place,  and thier high
and mighty attitudes adjusted.

 

 

 

[ChadTower]

Their color commentary analyst is a stand up comic.  Shouldn't that tell you enough?

[clanggedin]

OK... I guess you know more about BJJ than I do.  I guess learning Sais and Nunchakus, Chinese Broadsword will help me in the real world.

As for conditioning, BJJ is a total anerobic workout. It's llike wrestling. Some of the most well conditioned and strongest men I have ever met have been grapplers. It takes 10 years to get your Black Belt in BJJ, not 2 years like other McDojos of today.

BJJ is a high injury art?? What are you talking about?? I have never received an injury in ANY of my training, why because we teach RESTRAINT, just like you pulling punches in your sparring we restrain ourselves from going full force. LEg submissions aren't even taught unless your are a blue belt because of the high injury risk associated with them. According to studies done in 2004 most injuries 74% occured in sparring in TKD and Karate, not in BJJ.

BJJ also drills techniques. I don't know where you got your understanding of how BJJ is taught but it is severly flawed.  

As for EGO... Most of your post was about how superior your style is compared to what Lutus is studying. No one asked you to post about fight science and how you can "strike like a cobra" (what ever). I didn't come on here bragging about my wins against fighters from other styles.  Next time check your EGO at the door before you post.

Some of my last post was in jest. Like the while Royce Gracie thing, that was like 10 years ago. It was definately troll bait and you took it.  

BTW... Joe Rogan won a number of full contact TKD national championships. He was even the US Open Grand Champion and now trains under BJJ Black Belt Eddie Bravo.

If you're ever in Utah.. Look us up. www.pedrosauer.com I train in the Orem School. I also go up to Jeremy Horn's gym once a month at Elite Performance. There are always top fighters up there to practice your Kung FOO on too. Rich Franklin, Travis Wiuff and sometimes Matt Hughes, Tim Silvia and Jens Pulver or you can always challenge me.

[clanggedin]

OH and if you can't make it to UTAH then you can definately check out Renzo Gracies school in Manhatten. They are looking for guys to fight in the IFL. You should see how many SPORT foghters you can beat it shouldn't be too hard for you.

Jiu-Jitsu does have it's flaws, but after many years of searching for the best style for me, it ended up being BJJ.

[ChadTower]

I would spar with those guys for a couple of seconds.  I can throw that in my list of major league athletes that pounded me.  Been hit by a 98mph fastball and crushed by a world famous pro wrestler.  Knocked out in one punch by Tim Sylvia would be a hell of a story.   

[Havok]

I have trained in Roshambo for years, and no-one can defeat me!

[ChadTower]

Sure, but I go first.

[Xiaou2]

I guess learning Sais and Nunchakus, Chinese Broadsword will help me in the real world.

 no.  But learning to defend against things like knives and sticks/bats are a good idea.
And learning to use them could come in handy if theres some sort of Riot.

As for conditioning, BJJ is a total anerobic workout.

 Thats Not what I meant by conditioning.   Im talking changing bone densitys.
If your not properly conditoned,  when limbs collide,  you will go down like
a sack of bricks.   Fist also needs conditioning..  else its max hit power is
never realized, and..  you could fracture or break your fingers.

strongest men I have ever met have been grapplers.

 Strength alone means little in a fight.   Big guys fall as fast as small.

It takes 10 years to get your Black Belt in BJJ, not 2 years like other McDojos of today.

 Well, at least thats a refreshing thing to know.   Tho, 10yrs in a 'limited' art seems
a bit much to me.

BJJ is a high injury art?? What are you talking about??

 Thats ALL I hear from various sources on the net.  Is from people in BJJ, and
how they keep getting injuries.    Maybe your school is the exception.  Elsewhere,
is not so.


As for EGO... Most of your post was about how superior your style is compared to what Lutus is studying.

 Well, my concern was for his well being.   Nothing to do with Ego.   As said, that
Kickboxing course sounded ridiculus.  And to me, BJJ doesnt cut it for
street combat safety.  My examples, were not Bragging, they were
testomonials to the arts effectivness. 

BTW... Joe Rogan won a number of full contact TKD national championships.
So what.   Tourneys mean very little.   They rarely ever represent real
combat... esp with so many rules of what you can not do.

If you're ever in Utah..

 I took on whoever wanted to fight, when I was fighting.  I often fought the
biggest guys,  because it was more challenging..  and because it would proove
that I knew could operate the system correctly.   

 I didnt and do not fight to hurt others, nor to proove that I was a bada$$.   I fought to
assure myself of my own ability to be effective in real combat situations.

 I did not fight in tournaments, because they are fake... non realistic
to combat, therefore are meaningless to me.

 Ive been out of the arts for over 7yrs now. 
Ive got other hobbies, such as Byoac    

 Ohh, and All those supposed 'Big Names'  dont mean anything to me.   
The reality, is that any of those guys would most likly (99%) be
slaughtered by 2 or more thugs attacking them at the same time,
in Da 'Hood'.   

[jbox]

Hah! How appropriate, since you fight like a cow!

[ChadTower]

Well, on the other hand, if tourneys and sporting rings mean nothing, what is the guy supposed to do to test himself?  Go out and start fights in the street?  Go see Johnson Family Picnic and start yelling racial slurs in the theater?    You're talking about riots and getting beaten by multiple guys with sticks and knives but how many times has that happened to you?

[lordtodd75]

@ xiaou2

You sir are a moron. You don't full contact spar on the first day of a kickboxing class, at least not in any I took. You do however get to hold pads and are being conditioned from day one to take a blow. I have run across your kind before. PAMA, which is where I started my training, offered training in other less taught arts, such as JKD, silat and yes wing chun. A lot of people take there "arts" very seriously. Human ego almost forces you to believe your style is superior, if it wasn't then in a sense you have been wasting all these years of training, and noone wants to believe that. I bet when you lose a fight you have a lot of "reasons" why, you probably say "you should have won" and then point out the flaws of your opponent and his/her style. The fact of the matter is, if wing chun were superior. It would be more prevalent in the professional fight world. I have been watching pancrase, ufc, pride, etc. for years. haven't seen much wing chun.

[ChadTower]

This is why I hate martial arts discussions.  99% of the time it turns into "my style is better than your style" discussions complete with insults and challenges before the first 120 seconds have elapsed.

Frankly, I don't get that.  No one dedicating substantial training time to a quality martial art is wasting their time, period.  It doesn't matter if someone else is training in another style that can do different things better or worse.  They all have merit and they are all about improving oneself.  The whole "my style can beat up your style" concept is counterproductive and really only demonstrates that the either the student doesn't learn well or the teacher does not teach well.

[clanggedin]

There is no one style  that is the best.. I never said that BJJ was the only art you have to learn. There is no one art you have to learn. You need to learn a combination of arts. Someone who doesn't think they will end up on the ground one day is being ignorant, same with the person who think that they will never get jumped by a bunch of guys. That's why all of the successful guys in the UFC Pride, IFL, Etc. practice MIXED MARTIAL ARTS.

Bruce Lee was the first MMA fighter and he was shunned for it. In his book "The Tao of Jeet Kune Do" he stresses the importance of cross training becasue of all of the "watered down" styles out today. I have tried to "Take what is useful and develop it from there" like Bruce Lee said. I have Studied Kenpo, Kempo, Escrima, Muay Thai, Wing Chun, and Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu and I still study from those are willing to teach. But the style that has helped me the most in real life situations was BJJ and that's why I defend it.

I applaud Lutus for combining his standup with ground skills it will make him a more rounded fighter, so IF by chance he is tackled he will know how to defend himself.

I'll stick with talk about martial arts on www.mma.tv and return this thread back to Lutus.

Sorry for the hijack bro.

[ChadTower]

There have been "MMA" fighters for as long as there have been fighters.  The only thing new about "MMA" is the label.  For thousands of years there have been men who made their living travelling around learning from masters and challenging local champions.  There have been "professional" warriors for as long as there have been men doing the same thing.

[Xiaou2]

@ xiaou2

You sir are a moron. You don't full contact spar on the first day of a kickboxing class, at least not in any I took. You do however get to hold pads and are being conditioned from day one to take a blow. I have run across your kind before. PAMA, which is where I started my training, offered training in other less taught arts, such as JKD, silat and yes wing chun. A lot of people take there "arts" very seriously. Human ego almost forces you to believe your style is superior, if it wasn't then in a sense you have been wasting all these years of training, and noone wants to believe that. I bet when you lose a fight you have a lot of "reasons" why, you probably say "you should have won" and then point out the flaws of your opponent and his/her style. The fact of the matter is, if wing chun were superior. It would be more prevalent in the professional fight world. I have been watching pancrase, ufc, pride, etc. for years. haven't seen much wing chun.

 According to the author of the thread:

From there you kick each other in the thighs then the ribs. 
Then you go into full sparring.  All this on the first day

 So, whos the moron?!    This is why I was warning him.   Try reading the thread before
you reply, and retort to insults, idiot.


 As for the rest...

 When I DID decide on an art to take,  I spent much time researching it.  Going to demos
and more.   WC far exceeded what I had seen and discovered from others.  But even
moreso after it was learned.

 When I did start to learn it, I did do poorly in sparring matches.   WC failed me
plenty, before I realized that it was Not WC that was failing.. but Me failing it.
I was doing various things incorrecty.  Once I made those realizations,
results were dramatic.  I was barely touched... because of the effectiveness of
the system. 

 Trust me, when you fight people twice your size an lose... its not so fun.   However,
when you go against those same and bigger people.. and cant be touched...
and even retort to fighting with a single hand for more challenge..   then you
know what you have gotten from the system.

 I personally am All about working results.  I tested everything I learned in
heavy contact sparring.  If WC didnt work, and IF it wasnt me... then I would
have long since moved on to another art that worked.   As Im a thin
guy with a woman-like build, and cant afford to lose.   My strength will
always be limited due to my build type..  and an art based on power alone
(or power being a greater advantage) would always fail for me.
   
 WC is still a relatively less heard of, and not always widespread taught art.
WC takes time to adapt to.  Its compexities take a several years in the system
to attain great results.  And, because its a combat art, most things that
make WC usefull in the streets...  make it illegal to use in the ring.

 BTW , Bruce Lee started in the Art of WC.  In fact, he based his entire core
foundation on it.  Yes, he learned many other arts.. but he used a slightly
modified version of WC to gain safe effective entry in order to use those
other arts more effectively.

 Sadly, Bruce never got to a high level in WC..  thus his representation
of it was lacking for sure.   It would have been very interesting to
see exactly how he would have turned out had he gotten deeper into it.

 One thing about Lee that is important... is that while he was one of the
first MMA guy..   he at least perfected the tools that he learned.   For
example..  his sidekick as seen in various places.. esp in Enter the Dragon,
was flawless.   Not many people had that much power generation into
thier kicks...  nor the grace, speed, ballance, and timing.   

 Many of todays MMA fighters look like drunken sailors.  Sure, they may
know many arts..  but really..  how well?   Mostly not very.   Low belt
Levels of embarresment..   and truely doenst come close to really
representing the arts from which they try to borrow from.

 

[ChadTower]

Clearly they are effective enough to make millions of people pay to watch them.

How is that embarrassing?

[Xiaou2]

Well, on the other hand, if tourneys and sporting rings mean nothing, what is the guy supposed to do to test himself?  Go out and start fights in the street?  Go see Johnson Family Picnic and start yelling racial slurs in the theater?    You're talking about riots and getting beaten by multiple guys with sticks and knives but how many times has that happened to you?

 I merely meant that winning a trophy prooves very little..  because sports related combat doesnt
portray real combat accuratly, mostly due to heavy restrictions.

 Sparring is a great way to test the arts.  As are 2 man drills using full force and full speed.

 
 As for the weapon stuff,  I agree, that may be a rarity.  I was merely pointing that out,
to compare a more fully developed art to one that was not.    (I personally have not
done much with weaons other than to develop the skills to weild them.
nunchaukas, 9 secion whip chain, and basic  Rope Dart)

 Also, in all the years that Ive been capable of deadly retailiation...  Ive never once
had to use it.    Yes, there were instances where it was damn near close..  but
I managed to talk them out of it.   So, in fact, knowing the "hand to hand
arts" could be considered a useless waste of time.   Still, we artist know
that one day, it may come in handy.   Simularly, we keep candles in the
house in case the power goes out. (which is less rare occurance for many
of us   heh)

 

[Xiaou2]

Clearly they are effective enough to make millions of people pay to watch them.

How is that embarrassing?

 
 If doing the perfect kick, was like an  F1 race car...
And the kicks that lack power, speed and ballance.. are like a Geo Metro..

(Geo Metro = a car that struggles to make 60mph,  and at the speed
sounds like it about to blow up!)

 Then imagine the Monte Carlo  Race,   with all the Top racers,
in a Geo Metro's.


 That is an embarresment to me.

 Ive watched a few of these so called 'artist'?!  fights..  and every time, it sickens
me.  Ive stopped viewing them because of this.

 At least when I watch Boxing.. I can see artists that have decent levels
of perfection, of thier craft.

 However,  if you enjoy watching people roll arround on the floor, then
hey, more power to ya..   yawn.

[ChadTower]

Your goals differ from theirs.  They are not there to become masters of any given art.

They are there to make money and at that they succeed.

[Xiaou2]

lol.  I love your sense of humor

 You are in fact correct.   

 The problem is that there are people who Idolize these guys.. not
realizing thier massive lackings in the arts that they try to
utilize.

 I recall an Announcer saying something like: This was the first time in
thousands of years that the arts had been progressed...

  I litterally threw up in my mouth.   To think these clumby oafs
were considered the elete of all time made me want to commit
suicide on the spot to avoid the shame of living in this time period.

 

[ChadTower]

I recall an Announcer saying something like: This was the first time in
thousands of years that the arts had been progressed...

Eh, that's just marketing.  Given the humility that is supposed to be inherent in the majority of martial arts, it somewhat surprises me that you would be bothered in that way.  Your personal advancement, and recognition of your own peers and teachers, is supposed to be what you want, yes?  Not the recognition of random people in the street?

[Xiaou2]

 ahh, but when I see regression rather than advancment...
 that bugs me.   

  Just look at video games today..  they are mostly the exact same
game.  A FPS shooter.  The same game repacked with different
gfx, and the same control and premise.. and lack of challenge
or originality.   

 And music..   To me,  the 80s were an incredible period
where people experimented and got some amazing
creative results.

 Even the very Keyboards had better and more original
sounds.  Now every keyboard seems to use samples...
and so every song you hear sounds almost the same as
the next.

 Yeah, I know... there are exceptions.   However, the
trend of the masses, bothers me.


 As for the arts,  It also bothers me that great knowledge
may get lost because of great ignorance.   

 And that some people think that this stuff will save them
in a real life/death street fight.   

  Maybe Im just a premature grumpy old man now...   

 heh

[clanggedin]

The UFC started because the Gracie Family wanted to prove the effectiveness of BJJ against another attacker. They only had 3 rules. No biting, no eye gouges and no fish hooking. Royce, who was the smallest, beat all of his opponents. Back then you fought 3 or 4 times in a night too. What the UFC did back then was expose that other arts were not teaching techniques in how to defend from an attacker on the ground where a fight could possibly go. The UFC was the best place for someone to test their style out without having to worry about their life being endangered to do it.

The UFC only imposed restrictions like kicking to the head on the ground and other rules because laws were getting passed banning the sport. For some people it was the only place they could get into a fight and test your skills and not spend a night in jail for it. Now, with the rule changes they are sanctioned in 22 states and it's popularity is growing very fast.

BTW.. BJJ does teach knife/stick defense, they do teach gun defense they even taught defense against a Capoerista that may have a razor between it's toes (they still teach this in Brazil, lol).

These clumsy oafs are TRUE athletes and are very impressive fighters whether you like it or not. YES I am an MMA fanboy simply because I have personally met and sparred with a few of today's fighters and they are extememly good at what they do, which is fighting. These fighters not only have to worry about blocking punches and kicks, but they also have to learn how defend a ground attack from the top and the bottom, They have to learn how to defend the takedown and multiple submissions. They are more skilled than ANY boxer because of what they have to learn in order to win. Not just bobbing and weaving, proper footwork and throwing punches. It is much more complex than that.

I cannot watch the smaller shows that they have here in Utah becuase of the lack of technique I see in most fighters and fights, but the "A" level fighters in the UFC and Pride are still impressive to watch.

[ChadTower]

I think there is some age / "stuck in my ways" there.  What you took effort to find in the 80s (mainly because of your age then), the creative minority, has been replaced with "what I encounter now", the noncreative majority.

When you're young everything is new and thus it feels creative.

When you're old you've seen most of it before and it takes a lot more originality to impress you.

Look at it this way... when I was young, I thought Bell Biv Devoe was the future of popular music and a brand new concept in general.