Newbie Q's - please be gentle!

[japangreg]

Greetings, BYOACers.

Recently introduced to the MAME/home-brewed cab scene, I have a ton of questions I'd like to pose before I get too far into a project. I've done my best to search the boards and research the topic online, but I'd like to clarify/verify what I've found.

First set of questions re: comp. set up:
I'm planning on using an old PII, 400mhz 128mb 10gig system as the guts of my cab. Hoping to build this on the cheap, it's a left over comp. with Win 98 installed. With a focus mostly on mid-to-late 90's games (the Street Fighters, X Men, etc.) as well as some of the earlier favorites, is that processor/memory combo doable? Is upping the ram to 256 going to make a difference, or should I just go for a new processor? I've read a ton of threads on OS recommendations, and was surprised to see 98 as an occasionally favored one: does this still hold true (thread was from 04 or 05, I think) or will I have to find a way to talk MS into letting me install my XP home on a second box?

Second set of questions re: control panel:
I have an I-Pac sitting at home waiting for me to get the details worked out and put it to use. I'm planning on doing 2 builds: first for the little-woman's brother (to work out the kinks and get some experience) and then for myself (to fix all those mistakes I made in the first version). While I'm fairly certain both builds will be fairly simple 2-player affairs (2-8 way, 1-4 way joystick, 6 buttons per player), I'm going back and forth on the track ball/spinners. At this point, if I decide to put either/or into this first cab, I'm thinking of getting an Opti-pac as a companion encoder, but for my next build I was considering the Mini-pac. Not being familiar with soldering/electronics in general, is the mini-pac much harder to work with when wiring?

I'm also looking for nice CP templates: I have been strongly impressed (as I'm sure everyone else has been) by the quality and professionalism of Knievel's designs and was hoping to replicate (read: rip-off) his CP design. Is there any one place that offers detailed CP plans with dimension/measurements? (Knievel, if you're reading this, do you make your templates available?)

I've got more, but I think I'll leave it here for now lest I wear out my welcome faster than I should.

Any help/recommendations welcome!

[shardian]

The cutoff point for a 400 mhz is around 1985. I have one set up with vertical 4-way games. I haven't tried it personally with the newer games, as I don't see the point. Your framerate would be so low the games won't be playable.You can get a 1 ghz computer for next to nothing ($20 or so on ebay), so if you want to play early 90's games, definitely invest in a newer computer. My desktop is 1.3 mhz and runs everything in mame .54 release.

Hope this helps

[MovingTarget]

1.  I don't know for sure but I think your planned computer may have some problems running some of those games.  I would suggest loading some up and trying them out ASAP.  You don't need to build the entire cabinet and CP just to find your computer can't cut it.  I think if you were planning on just doing some old 80s games that computer would be fine.  Some others may suggest you load an older version of MAME to help out.

2.  Why not make it even more simple and just get a HAPP USB trackball?  You can plug it in using USB or a PS2 mouse connector and you won't have to solder or anything.

3.  I'm not sure what software program you're going to use to create your CP but I've got a Visio layout and my Photoshop layout you're welcome to.  I also was "inspired" by Knievel and it has 2-8 ways w/6 buttons each, 1-4 way w/2 buttons, TB, and some admin buttons (Pause, Exit, P1 Coin, P2 Coin, P1 Start, P2 Start, Mouse 1, and Mouse 2).  Look in the Project section for Alien Mame for pictures.  The only problem is the Photoshop file is a few hundred meg but I could probably make that smaller if I removed the graphics and just left the button position stuff.

[Dervacumen]

on OS recommendations...Windows 98 is occasionally favored

I'm running Windows ME (forgive me) on one machine and Windows XP on another, and see no reason to upgrade to XP if you've already got a licensed copy of Windows 98.  I think you're fine here.

My processor is P3 800MHz and has no problems with the Neo-Geo stuff or anything less.  Doesn't work too good with Virtua Fighter, though.

[Outrun]

Hi there,

I once helped a friend install a Mini-Pac into his own cab & was really supprised how easy it was to  connect the wiring harness to the various controls/coin door

I wished i'd brought one myself !!

[severdhed]

i'd stick with win98 on a PC with those specs, XP needs alot more system resources, 98 would run much better on that setup.


but like everyone else said, you may want to look into an upgrade.  Check local pc repair shops, you may be able to get a pentium 3 system for next to nothing.  I fix PCs for a living, we often get old computers donated to us, usually pentium 2s and 3s...some arent bad though(thats how i got my mame pc)  we usually end up giving them away to people we know who need computers.  so check locally, you may find something good.

[sphetr2]

You may get an upgrade if you wish, but I have a 400 mhz PC w/ 256 mb RAM and Win XP installed and TMNT and XMEN and Simpsons all run at full speed on my PC. Of course, I use MAME .55...using an older version of MAME lets you run faster games on slower PCs btw, in case you didn't know.

If this will be your only project, upgrade. If you're like the majority of the people on this board, you'll make more then one cab  , and that pc should be just fine for this cab.

P.S. Please send me the link for the $20 1 ghz on ebay  never seen prices like that.

Oh and you might be able to run street fighter with fastmame.

And wow...1.3 MHZ processor and he runs the same games I do 

[divemaster127]

Sharidan is dead on you need at least a 1.0 or higher your really wasteing your time with less plus with a the newer mame versions lots of nice goodies, & if you wish to run a frontend you need a faster system, esp. for gameex
dm

[Texasmame]

Greetings, BYOACers.

First set of questions re: comp. set up:
I'm planning on using an old PII, 400mhz 128mb 10gig system as the guts of my cab. Hoping to build this on the cheap, it's a left over comp. with Win 98 installed. With a focus mostly on mid-to-late 90's games (the Street Fighters, X Men, etc.) as well as some of the earlier favorites, is that processor/memory combo doable? Is upping the ram to 256 going to make a difference, or should I just go for a new processor? I've read a ton of threads on OS recommendations, and was surprised to see 98 as an occasionally favored one: does this still hold true (thread was from 04 or 05, I think) or will I have to find a way to talk MS into letting me install my XP home on a second box?

Any help/recommendations welcome!

As far as the comp, I'll be using this box.  It's my PII 450.  That runs the classics fine.  Since you'll be wanting to run later games (Street Fighter and such), I'm pretty sure you'll need to upgrade.  You box SHOULD be fine for the true early 80's classics but beyond that, probably not.

Welcome aboard,
John in TX

[divemaster127]

The computer you are running will run the 80's no problem, the following is just my "opinion" for all of the time(lots of it), money(lots of that to) & for no more than a computer cost anymore, computers are so cheap now, I would not have built a cab if I could not have put a pretty descent system in, its like spending a ton of money on a nice sports car & then skimping on the engine, again this is my opinion only
dm

[Kremmit]

I can run Street Fighter II fullspeed on a 700mhz machine, but only with DOS MAME- in Windows98 it's slowed down.  That's using MAME version .55, I think.  Most everything older than that runs fine, even in Windows with MAME32.

There's nothing wrong with starting out with your existing computer, although I would put as much memory as you can into it.  Spend your money on controls, interfaces, wood, t-molding, and the like, and get yourself up and running.  Once you're over that hurdle, if you find that the existing computer just isn't quite enough for you, the computer is the easiest part to replace- after all, the Ipac just plugs into the thing.

As for your encoder questions: 

Since you've already got an IPac, if you decide to add two trackballs (plus up to two spinners, if you like) then the Opti-Pac is the way to go.  If you're only adding one trackball (plus up to two spinners, if you like), then the Opti-Wiz from GroovyGameGear.com will be cheaper.  *However, if you're using an older version of MAME with your older computer, you won't be able to use the "Z-Axis" inputs on the Opti-Wiz.  So if you want a TB plus a spinner, you'll have to use a switch as shown here:  http://www.oscarcontrols.com/DPDTswitch.shtml.  Or two of 'em if you want two spinners.

For your next project, if you're going to add optical controls, the Mini-Pac is awfully attractive.  Ultimarc sells a pre-made wiring harness that just plugs right on to the connector- it costs a bit, but the hook-up doesn't get much easier than that.  And you make up some (all?) of the cost of the wiring harness in not having to buy two encoders, since the Mini-Pac handles both optical and digital controls.

And it's always worth mentioning: The cheapest option for optical controls is still the mouse hack, if you're looking to save a buck.

[_) (V) (-)]

I am also using a PII-400 and all the old 80's stuff seems to work ok so far.

Older version of Mame32 seem to be more 'comfortable' than the newer one. I really like the abillity to bypass them screens at the start of the loads though.

Anyway, I was reading the MAME faq and they state MAME32 will benifit more from a faster CPU than adding memory or anything else. I haven't done any tests to confirm this but have noticed a dramatic increase in the amount of time it takes to update my roms folder.  Also many of my old roms won't play under the newer version.

Also, cheep upgrade parts tip # 325 . . .

Not sure how things work in your city, but here we have to seperate any computer equipment from our trash. They actually have a drop off site for it and I know some guys who visit the place just to rummage around in the pile looking for goodies. It's not uncommon for them to find PIII parts there.

Happy hunting!

[Tiger-Heli]

I'll try to just hit things that aren't already covered, or where I differ with responses.

First set of questions re: comp. set up:
I'm planning on using an old PII, 400mhz 128mb 10gig system as the guts of my cab. Hoping to build this on the cheap, it's a left over comp. with Win 98 installed.
 With a focus mostly on mid-to-late 90's games (the Street Fighters, X Men, etc.) as well as some of the earlier favorites, is that processor/memory combo doable?

You decide, but probably not.  You will want to run an older version (0.56, 0.53) of MAME on it.  That said, it costs you nothing (but time) to download and install an older MAME version and see how the comp does with it.

Is upping the ram to 256 going to make a difference, or should I just go for a new processor?

Here I disagree with Kremmit.  A processor upgrade will buy you tons more performance than a ram upgrade.  TONS.  Unless you have the ram sitting around or someone will donate it to you, you are throwing money away there.  And mobo/processor upgrades are cheap.  If I look on pricewatch, I can find an Athlon XP 2800 mobo/memory/ combo for $139, so if you are looking for something like a 1 - 1.5 G Duron or Thunderbird mobo/processor combo used, you shouldn't have to pay more than $50 for it.

I've read a ton of threads on OS recommendations, and was surprised to see 98 as an occasionally favored one: does this still hold true (thread was from 04 or 05, I think) or will I have to find a way to talk MS into letting me install my XP home on a second box?

No and No - IMHO, 98 is not a favored OS any more, but you don't need XP on your cabinet.  The main advantage with 98 was that it ran dual mice before this was added to MAME in 0.105 or so, and it is cheaper.  OTOH, other than greater stability and running a few FE's and emulators that won't run under Win98, there is no real reason to put XP on a cabinet.  In your case, you are definitely better running 98SE, as it's hardware requirements are more in tune with your system, and older MAME builds (which you will need to be running) had more options under Win98.

(BTW, I have also read on many computer boards that you should keep all your hardware approximately compatible - i.e. Pentium II 400, TNT2 graphics card, Win98, or XP 2800, Radeon 9200 graphics card, WinXP, or Pentuim IV 3.4 Ghz, GTX 7900 Graphics card, WinXP - But don't try to install the GTX 7900 card in the Pentium II 400 box, or the TNT2 card in the P4 box, or run Win98 with the newer components, etc.)

Not being familiar with soldering/electronics in general, is the mini-pac much harder to work with when wiring?

Generally, there is no soldering with any of the encoders - except the GGG Eco line of encoders, and then only if you are comfortable with soldering and/or too cheap to pay the extra $3 for the IDE header. 

[RayB]

If he's going with the 400mhz system and Win98, 128mb is more than enough.

[japangreg]

Hey guys, thanks for the replies (would have gotten back sooner, but the fianc

[shardian]

>On ordering sticks/buttons etc.:
>Who are the major, reputable and most cost-friendly suppliers available?

Check Divemaster's thread in the bst forum. He sells everything Happ sells, and shipping is very reasonable.

>On CP buttons and sticks:
>I've heard a lot of people complain about microswitch pushbuttons/joysticks due to their 'clickyness' >and recommend leaf switches in their place.  is there a difference in the "feel" of the buttons? Does >one tend to be tighter/more responsive than the other?

Definitely a difference in feel. If you really want to know the difference, I have a 4-way wico style leaf joystick and a few leafswitch buttons you could have for next to nothing. I'll never use them.
I personally prefer microswitch because I grew up in the 90's. I never used leafswitches, except for the broke down Ms. Pacman at the pizza joint. The microswitch clicky feel and associated sounds give me a sense of comfort. I have no such connection with leaf switch controls. What i am trying to say is it comes down to personal preference.

>Joysticks are more of a concern: microswitch vs. leaf vs. optical. Does anyone know what type of >stick was used in the SF type cabs?

Microswitch 8-way controller with a square actuator... a Happ competition basically. I use a street fighter 8-way in a desktop cp.

>Do the restrictor plates on micro sticks have that 'stuck in a corner' problem?

Depends on the actuator,which I am assuming you meant instead of the restrictor - and it isn't that bad really. For some games, it is preferrable to know when you are in the true diagonal position.

[Tiger-Heli]

From your replies, I think I'll be looking into upgrading the box: although I guess what Kremmit said is true (the comp can always be swapped at a later date) I'd hate to waste time trying to get that old system running correctly only to ditch it. Thanks for the pointers on cheap parts - I'm sure that'll come in handy later.

My advice would still be to put an old version of MAME on the current box and see how it does with one of the tougher game you would want to play.  If it does fine, then you are money ahead.  If it won't do what you want, you know that before you bother setting everything up only to have to reconfigure when you go to a newer MAME on a faster box.

Are most people just eating the cost of shipping, or are they getting their parts through another vendor (or BYOACer in the BST forum) that gets them in bulk from Happ? Who are the major, reputable and most cost-friendly suppliers available?

RandyT at Groovygamegear and Andy at Ultimarc (as long as they're blue) sell a line of buttons and joysticks, but they are not true Happ parts.

If you want true Happ parts, you will save money buying from a re-seller.
Bob Roberts - http://homearcade.org/BBBB/ http://wiki.arcadecontrols.com/wiki/The_Real_Bob_Roberts has been helping people here out since before I joined the scene.

Other respected sellers include Ponyboy, Divemaster (both on BYOAC), and TornadoTerry on E-bay.

is there a difference in the "feel" of the buttons? Does one tend to be tighter/more responsive than the other?

Leaf buttons were used in classic games - Joust, Defender, Donkey Kong, Asteroids.  Generally, they have a lighter feel and faster response than micros.  However, most fighters had micros, so if that is what you are going for, you will likely be fine with them.  (And the micros work fine with the classic games, unless you're a purist - i.e. if you don't remember the leaf buttons, you won't miss them.)  (Until you play on a real machine with them (j/k)) 

Joysticks are more of a concern: microswitch vs. leaf vs. optical. Does anyone know what type of stick was used in the SF type cabs?

I am guessing either Happ Supers or P360's, but I'm not a fighter guy (classics for me).

Supers and P360's have a flowing circular motion, Comps have a square restrictor so you can feel the diagonals.  I think Capcom used Supers and MK used Comps, but don't know.

I'm looking for something that's responsive, but not with a tiny range of motion.

The bad thing is that will eliminate the best sticks for classic 4-way games (Donkey Kong, Pac-Man) unless you put on a dedicated stick for these.  Avoid the Omni-Stick, Prodigy, Euro-Stick, Suzo 500, Mag-Stick, T-Stick, etc. if you want a large range of motion.  Happ is better for this.

Do the restrictor plates on micro sticks have that 'stuck in a corner' problem?

See previous comments.

I like the idea of optical sticks, but feel they may be overkill for my needs (not to mention pricey).

Agreed.  The GGG 49-Ways and the Ultimarc Universal 360's would be other options at the pricey/overkill end of the spectrum.

Happ competition seem to be a favorite (or was that ultimates? Have to check the notes...) Suggestions?

Wasn't Ultimates, very few people recommend them.

[Tiger-Heli]

>Does anyone know what type of >stick was used in the SF type cabs?
Microswitch 8-way controller with a square actuator... a Happ Super basically. I use a street fighter 8-way in a desktop cp.

I thought Supers had a round acutuator and Comps had a square one.

[shardian]

>Does anyone know what type of >stick was used in the SF type cabs?
Microswitch 8-way controller with a square actuator... a Happ Super basically. I use a street fighter 8-way in a desktop cp.

I thought Supers had a round acutuator and Comps had a square one.

Whoops. You are right.

[Kremmit]

Is upping the ram to 256 going to make a difference, or should I just go for a new processor?

Here I disagree with Kremmit.  A processor upgrade will buy you tons more performance than a ram upgrade.  TONS.  Unless you have the ram sitting around or someone will donate it to you, you are throwing money away there.  And mobo/processor upgrades are cheap. 

I was ASSuming that he was staying with the same computer.  I guess I consider the processor to be one of the integral parts of the computer, I didn't even consider changing it out.  But you're right, a faster processor is more important than extra RAM.

I'll also agree with the button and joy reccomendations so far- microswitch buttons and Happ Supers or Competitions.  If Street Fighter is the game that sets the standard for you, then those are the parts you'll feel most comfortable on.

[Tiger-Heli]

I was ASSuming that he was staying with the same computer.  I guess I consider the processor to be one of the integral parts of the computer, I didn't even consider changing it out.  But you're right, a faster processor is more important than extra RAM.

Well, from his original post:
<quote=japangreg>
Is upping the ram to 256 going to make a difference, or should I just go for a new processor?
</quote=japangreg>
But let me also clarify that I'm basically talking about a machine swap rather than either a memory or processor upgrade - i.e. depending on the mobo, he could probably swap out the PII 400 for maybe a PII 650 (if they made those), but he could also pick up a 1.8 Ghz Duron mobo/processor/memory combo for very little more money.

I'll also agree with the button and joy reccomendations so far- microswitch buttons and Happ Supers or Competitions.  If Street Fighter is the game that sets the standard for you, then those are the parts you'll feel most comfortable on.

Do you know if I was correct about Supers or P360's being better for SF and Comps being better for MK?

[japangreg]

Hey guys. Thanks again for the info.

I've got a PM in to Divemaster asking for a quote on some gear (Shardian, you should have one too). I've made the rounds on eBay and found TorandoTerry - have more research to do, but this is a great start. Thanks again!

Once the parts all arrive and I have the wood for my CP, what's the most common progression? Logically, I'm thinking I should layout the controls, drill the holes and mount the hardware, temporarily wire the thing up and test it out. Once I have the layout I'm happy with, then I worry about overlays, lexan, etc.

Is it possible to 'test mount' joysticks and buttons? Wouldn't I need to route out space for the joystick plates in order to try them? I've seen some people use cardboard mock-ups: is this a reliable method for determining cp layout?

Never having done any wiring before, will I be able to use quick connects to temporarily wire the controls? Can they be detached once I am finished testing and want to remove the controls?

Over the weekend, my future brother in law and I stumbled across an arcade cab for sale in Costco (can't remember what they were calling it - Ultimate Arcade or something like that) A few rounds of Street Fighter later, and my desire for building my own cab was fired up big time. The interesting thing about this cab was the monitor: instead of being mounted vertically (almost perpendicular to the cp) it was tilted way back so that it was almost aligned with the cp. It was a different feel, but not unpleasant. My brother in law said he might like that for his build.

Has anyone ever seen/done this in a home brew MAME cab? I have 2 old 19" CRT monitors I'm planning on using in my build (depending on what I can find cheap this black Friday) and was planning on doing a simple shelf to hold it in place. Trying to tilt it back 45 degrees or so is a new challenge. Would that put too much strain on the casing or cause other problems I might not be able to anticipate?

As always, thanks for any and all help.

[Tiger-Heli]

Once the parts all arrive and I have the wood for my CP, what's the most common progression?

Lay parts out on floor.  Move joysticks around imagining they are connected.  Get bored, drink beer, play MAME on keyboard.
Hook controls up to test panel and connect to computer.  Play MAME on that.  Drink beer, think about rest of project.
Build arcade cabinet exterior over several months between drinking beer and playing MAME on "test setup".
Finally set up monitor and computer and controls on arcade cabinet.  Play games on real cabinet.
Life is good - drink beer.
Think about doing artwork and stuff for arcade cabinet, but it works the way it is.  Play more games, drink more beer.  Plan on finishing arcade cabinet sometime.  Play more games, drink more beer.  Tell self that someday you'll finish arcade cabinet . . .

Oh - you meant how SHOULD you do it next, not the most common progression? 

First step is to mock up everything and make sure it is the way you want it BEFORE you cut holes in the expensive wood that you just bought.

Is it possible to 'test mount' joysticks and buttons? Wouldn't I need to route out space for the joystick plates in order to try them? I've seen some people use cardboard mock-ups: is this a reliable method for determining cp layout?

Possible and recommended.  You can use cardboard or peg board, hardboard, etc.  both are cheaper than MDF or plywood.  As far as routing, depends on how you are going to mount the joysticks, but if you were going to route out 3/4-inch MDF to leave 3/8-inch under the joysticks, you can test mount them 1/4" below 1/8" hardboard and get the same effect, etc.

Never having done any wiring before, will I be able to use quick connects to temporarily wire the controls? Can they be detached once I am finished testing and want to remove the controls?

Yes, most people use quick connects, and I would recommend it.  They can be detached, or you can just leave them on the microswitches and remove the micros (for buttons, for example).

Over the weekend, my future brother in law and I stumbled across an arcade cab for sale in Costco (can't remember what they were calling it - Ultimate Arcade or something like that)

You don't mean UltraCade?  (That's a dirty word around here . . .)

Trying to tilt it back 45 degrees or so is a new challenge. Would that put too much strain on the casing or cause other problems I might not be able to anticipate?

I wouldn't think it would, as long as it is supported well.

[RandyT]

RandyT at Groovygamegear and Andy at Ultimarc (as long as they're blue) sell a line of buttons and joysticks, but they are not true Happ parts.

Actually, our buttons are indeed Genuine HAPP buttons and ship with Cherry micros. 

RandyT

[Kremmit]

Do you know if I was correct about Supers or P360's being better for SF and Comps being better for MK?

Nope, I don't really play fighters myself.  I know they both shipped with Happ sticks, but I couldn't tell you which flavor.

[Galvatron]

Can someone elaborate a little for me on the dreaded Happ shipping costs?  I've tried putting a couple things in my cart, and got all the way to the last stage (after filling in CC info, where the only button to hit was "finish"), and it still didn't show a shipping price.  I saw that there's a $5 handling charge for all orders over $25 (or $10 for orders under), but if I'm going to be ordering a couple of rotary top joysticks, a couple dozen buttons, a coin door, etc., that seems pretty reasonable, so long as the additional shipping charge is reasonable.

Also, I'm in Chicago, so I could get out to their Elk Grove Village location.  Does that mean I wouldn't pay shipping, just the $5 handling?

Thanks!

[Kremmit]

Yeah, they don't tell you the shipping up front, ain't that nice.  If you're buying a large order, including something heavy like a coin door, you might not get raped.  The ones they really hose you on are the small, lightweight orders.  I think they probably have like a $20 minimum shipping or something.  Local pickup will avoid this, so if you can do it, groovy.

Or, you could try Ponyboy in the buy/sell/trade section of this forum.  He sells Happ parts at a substantial discount, and always charges fair shipping.  Personally, I never expect to buy directly from Happ again.