Xbox mod

[ChadTower]

Okay, this is an offshoot of the Gamecube mod thread from the other day.  Seeing as how a cheap Xbox fell in my lap, may as well mod that instead as it's a much better candidate.

I'm ploughing through tons of reading now.  I have a spare 20G hard drive sitting on my desk.  I don't care much about keeping Xbox games on the hard drive but I would like to keep emulators and the associated files there.  It's possible at some point I would enable Media Center but probably not store anything on the Xbox itself.

I have never had an Xbox before, have modded other consoles, have PCB repair experience.  So this shouldn't be too hard, just have to figure out where to get the info I need.

[BobA]

Best source of xbox mod info is http://www.xbox-scene.com/

I just did one on the weekend and cursed and fumed.  It was a V1.0 xbox and had the holes filled with solder.  My friend is a IT tech and his first question was how do you solder so I took over.  Mods are usually quite easy but I used up alot of solder wick on this one. 

If you can solder get a regular mod chip as the solderless ones cause more problems in the long run and cost alot more.

BobA

[ChadTower]

I can solder just fine... was just reading this.  Don't like soldering tiny points but then again who does? 

[Hoagie_one]

I did a no solder chip and a soft mod, both were easy.

If you want to do a soft mod, I might be convinced to loan you the 007 game, disk, and memory stick to do it for teh nominal price of shipping, as long as you return said items to me.

[BobA]

Looks like a good detailed guide.   That D0 point is really tiny but using the alternate can make it a bit easier.

BobA

[ChadTower]

Thanks for the offer, Hoagie.  I'm not sure what a soft mod offers yet that a hard mod does not... so far, looks like adding the header pins in the LPC circuit is the way to go.  Nothing I haven't done many times on pinball PCBs.

[pointdablame]

When you mod it, use the alternate D0 on the bottom of the motherboard as was mentioned, its a bit easier to deal with.

I'm a fairly bad, and inexperienced, solderer, but I can mod an xbox with little trouble.  You'll be fine.  Just  solder in the pinheader, and from then on its just the d0 and possibly a few other wires depending on modchip and how you want to turn the chip on/off.

If you never plan to use Xbox live, and don't mind the system being in "modded" mode all the time, you're options are pretty much open.  You can get a softmod to do everything you'd want, and you can get a modchip to as well.

For your purposes, the modchip doesn't really matter either.  I'd just grab a DuoX for $15 and go from there.

[ChadTower]

Well I would like the ability to go on Live.  I may not use it much or for long but I'd like to check it out as I've never been there.

I'll know more once I have the system and know the motherboard version.  I'm picking it up in about 45 minutes.

[TapeWurm]

I did a no solder chip and a soft mod, both were easy.

If you want to do a soft mod, I might be convinced to loan you the 007 game, disk, and memory stick to do it for teh nominal price of shipping, as long as you return said items to me.

I did a HD swap method for my softmod, since the Xbox was free and I didn't really care if it toasted it or not. But my question to you, Hoagie, is does your soft-modded box ever get caught in a boot-loop where it takes a few minutes to come out of it and load the dashboard? Mine does, esp after being unhooked for a long while. Just curious.

[ChadTower]

It probably does that because the Xbox loses its kernel time settings after being without power for a certain amount of time.  The bios replacements don't handle that all that well.

[TapeWurm]

It probably does that because the Xbox loses its kernel time settings after being without power for a certain amount of time.  The bios replacements don't handle that all that well.

I would have thought with it being plugged up it would have maintained the time. Such a minor annoyance but a big one for me.

[ChadTower]

I've read in multiple places that it does not.  Doesn't lose it right away but after a while it does.

BTW, got the machine, pristine shape.  Tested tonight, works well.  Tomorrow will crack it open and determine the motherboard rev.

[shmokes]

Regarding LIVE, a mod chip can be disabled to allow you on LIVE, but you have to be using original game discs, of course.  Backups or games copied to the hard drive won't work with LIVE and when you connect to LIVE using one you will be banned.  So, if you don't plan on actually purchasing legitimate copies of games for this thing, don't let LIVE factor into your decision.

Additionally, setting up a hard drive can be a pain in the ass.  I HIGHLY recommend a program called AvaNetPrepare.  It's made by the team that makes the Avalaunch dashboard.  It's incredibly easy to set up and it automates the process of formatting/partitioning the new drive as well as cloning the old drive over. 

However, for a 20 GB drive, I'm not sure putting in a new drive is worth the hassle.  It probably already has a 10 GB drive, which will hold all the old classics.  Once you get into N64 and PSX emulation you need a bigger drive anyway.  You can probably get an 80 GB drive for $30.  Not only is it convenient to load Xbox games directly from the hard drive, it actually makes games better by substantially reducing load times.  Additionally, with a hard drive you can just pop a disc in and rip it directly to the Xbox.  I believe ripping a game to an ISO on a PC and then burning it to a disc is MUCH more complicated, not to mention that many games will only fit on a dual layer DVD+R so you either have to buy the still very expensive dual layer blanks, or you have to reauthor the game, stripping out non-important parts, which I don't even know how to do.  And I might as well throw in one more "not to mention".  Not to mention that Xbox DVD-ROM drives are famous for being finicky about media.  Finding a brand and format (+r vs. -r) that works in your Xbox's drive can be an expensive exercise in frustration.  You buy a spindle of Verbatim +R's only to find they don't work, so you buy a spindle of Memorex +R's, only to find THEY don't work, so you go with Verbatim -R's, which don't work, so you try Memorex -R's and BINGO.  You've got it!   . . . and a lifetime supply of blank DVD's that can't be used for your Xbox.

[yalborap]

The big advantage of using an actual modchip if you don't use xbox live is that you can install things like little LCD screens that interact with it and can display stuff like the currently playing song in XBMC. Personally, as cool as that is, I've never really wishes I could do it for actual practical reasons, so I'm happy with my 25 dollar softmod that I can do again and again for no extra cost.

But that's just me, you might desire the little screen showing what song's playing.

[ChadTower]

I don't care much about the little addons, but shmokes made some interesting points.  I doubt that setting up a new hard drive is all THAT hard, though.  Can't be any worse than the Tivo upgrades I just ran through.  Many of the modchips I've read about have drive upgrade software built right in and can lock/unlock the drive with a couple of button presses.

That is good info on Live and real discs.  I don't usually use copies other than backups of what I have so that probably isn't an issue.  I just don't play enough to go ripping and looking for ISOs.  About as far as I usually go is to download an ISO of a game I already have because I'm too lazy to research how to back the disc up myself.

I'll see what it has for a drive already.  Manufacture date is 2004 so it's not very old.

BTW, shmokes, I've found that most of the drives in DVD players that are finicky about DVDRs are not finicky about DVDRWs.  It's worth a shot.

[Hoagie_one]

Very important to set the time immediately after having a softmodded box unplugged too long

[SNAAKE]

you probly have a 1.6 xbox. these are harder to install than other xboxes cause you have to solder 5 extra wires in the back. attached diagram for duox2 chips. then you need to burn 512k bios on dvdr and flash the chip.

also,installing drives is easy. just replace the stock drive with a new one. burn "slayers 2.6 autoinstaller"(google) on dvdr and boot xbox from that, everything else is menu driven.

PS: if you are not up for the challange you can always hire me, pm if interested

[BobA]

No wiring on the back for the 1.6 chip and the duox2 now.  It comes with a thin PC board that solders to the header and the wired points on the back of the Xbox MB.   Makes the mod really easy.  The LPC mod board comes with all the duox2 chips that I have received.

BobA

[ChadTower]

Thanks for the offer but I should be just fine.  I rebuild pinball PCBs fairly regularly and there's nothing here half as complex.  It's just a couple of jumpers and adding some header pins.

[severdhed]

one note on xbox Live.

if you wish to connect to xbox live once the mod chip is installed, it is easy to disable the chip..however if you have already connected the xbox to xbox live, and then later change the hard drive, you will no longer be able to connect, even with the chip disabled.  when you sign in, MS logs your mac address along with the serial # of your hard drive.   if you connect later and you have a different hard drive, the serial # wont match the mac address and you will get banned.   

[SNAAKE]

^ correct.

if you already went online then you need to change the xbox eeprom,new drive,new xbox live account. also, www.otbmods.com sells pre flashed duox2 chips so you you can just get one of those and skip the flash. email him for the preflashed chips

[ChadTower]

Is there a way of knowing if the previous owner has been on Live?  I haven't done it yet myself.

I was looking at this chip.  Looks pretty good.

[ChadTower]

Geesh.  xbox-scene is a mess to wade through.  Billions of posts from what appears to be 12 year olds asking people to do their research for them and then do the work for them... so much of it that it is impossible to find the real info.  I'm having trouble finding FAQs or reasonable posts that are newer than 2004.

[ChadTower]

Yack, it's even hard to go to Xbox.com and find details on Xbox Live.  Holy flashing images and obfuscation!

[shmokes]

Don't use the forums at Xbox-Scene (unless you run into problems, I mean).  Use the tutorials.  There's an enormous tutorials section and they're really well organized.  It's still a ton of information to wade through, but it really doesn't take very long before you just suddenly "get" everything.

Still, a lot of the tutorials are now outdated and tell you the hard way to do things that can now be done with no work at all using the latest mod chips or new software programs that have since become available.

[ChadTower]

That's what I'm saying.  I've read through many of the tutorials and most of them are dated 2004 or so.  Things have to have changed quite a bit since then.

So far, this is what I have learned:

I likely have a 1.6 mobo.  I can confirm that when I get the chance to open the sucker up.  I will have to rebuild the LPC port (which seems to be a debug port) by soldering in 4-5 short jumpers.  Then I install a 2x6 (with pin 4 removed) set of male header pins into the LPC through holes.  I guess I will have to be careful with the wire jumpers since they're both going in the same holes.  After that, run a jumper from a header pin to the d0 hole (haven't figured out what that one is yet).  Install the chip, boot it up and immediately set the date/time.  Proceeding from there it's all dependent on the particular BIOS of that chip but I will likely have to set it up so that it sees the retail kernel and then a hacked BIOS.  At this point, if I desire, I can upgrade the drive using the new chip's OS functions.  Configure it for DHCP, let it talk to my router, and then I should be able to FTP/SMB all I want to put things on the drive like emulators and additional software.

What I'm trying to dig up now are issues such as the Live MAC/HD serial nugget given above... I don't want to get it all done and then discover I've actually disabled something I may want later on.

[shmokes]

Check out the installation manual for the Xenium SpICE.  It tells you how you can tell what version of Xbox you have simply by turning on the Xbox with no game in and checking some info in the Xbox Dashboard.  It takes about 1 minute.

[ChadTower]

I've read in multiple guides that there are a couple of revisions that can only be told apart by a continuity check on the motherboard.  Could be old info, though.

[ChadTower]

Hrm... thought of a desired use for Media Center.  I download a lot of PPV events the day after they happen.  Many times they are in DivX 6.  My DVD player only supports up to DivX 5 and I have never seen an updated BIOS for it.  So, if I could have a box in my living room that fits in well, can pull from the network, and can be easily updated to new codecs, that would be useful to me.  It would be worth my effort to get that in place if I could do it inexpensively.

[shmokes]

Well, if you're going to mod your xbox either way, putting Xbox Media Center in place won't add to the expense and will almost not add to the effort.  It's just a dashboard, and you've got to install a dashboard either way.  The only real extra effort is setting up shared folders on your PC and pointing Xbox Media Center to them which, frankly, isn't much effort.

You can use your modded Xbox as a media center and to play backup discs and emulators without upgrading the hard drive.  There's pleny of room on the 8-10 GB for all that.

[ChadTower]

That is the conclusion I'm reaching too.  I can always upgrade the drive later.  I just have to sort out what the issues are regarding Live if I do that.  I don't plan on subscribing to Live now but can't say I never will.

[ChadTower]

Erg, just realized the thing has only that stupid AV port on the back.  So I'll have to buy whatever adapters allow it to have digital audio out.  Pic is less important but I would like to go with 5.1 for games that support it.

[ChadTower]

Another thought just occurred to me... going with the header pin install, it really doesn't matter what chip I get.  If it is a problem later on I can just swap it with another.  Hrm.

[ChadTower]

Erf... I'm parsing out what software to put, and apparently I need to hunt down a compiler for the Xbox so I can compile XBMC.   

[Hoagie_one]

look for auto installer deluxe 3.0.  it has an assortment of programs for the xbox all on a disk you can just run after you mod it, including XBMC.

[ChadTower]

Including the XBMC binaries?  Interesting.

[ChadTower]

Eh, crap on the DuoX chips, they have a physical switch on them.  That's not what I want.


Oooh.  Good rundown on current gen chips and each of their strengths/weaknesses.

[ChadTower]

Yes, this is a stream of consciousness thread.  I'm using it so I don't forget anything.  It is my notes.

It just occurred to me that I have no idea if the 20G drive I have been talking about can be locked.  So that's probably out anyway.

[crashwg]

Your choice of modchip (Xenium Gold) is a good one in my opinion.  I have a Gold and also an Ice (which is pretty much the same thing) and I've been extremely satisfied with it.

As for getting a compiler and such...  Toss that idea right out the window, it's not necessary.  Check PM for details!

[ChadTower]

So far nothing in my PMs but that dude taking me up on my offer to mod his Saturn.

EDIT:  then it appeared.

[Hoagie_one]

I also have the xenium gold.  It was pricey, but its quality

[ChadTower]

From what I can tell, the big selling factor for me is no dips.

[Hoagie_one]

roger on that.

[shmokes]

Personally, my favorite chips of the premium brands are Xecutor 3, followed by SmartXX, followed by Xenium.  Unless you're going with a solderless install, in which case I'd go with Xenium, follwed by Xecutor 3, followed by SmartXX. 

The thing that sets Xecutor 3 apart in my mind is all the optional products that they've released that work seamlessly with their chip, like the X3IR which allows you to turn your Xbox on and off with the controller or remote, which is really fantastic if it's going to be a media center in addition to a game console.  They also have the X3 LCD which is a nice plug & play LCD that you can cut a hole in your case and install, or you can just use their replacement front-panel with a premade hole that the LCD fits right into.  The SmartXX chip is just incredibly solid and uses some encrypted chip or something that has made it impossible or impractical to crack.  The upside is that to this day there has never been a SmartXX clone, where with Xeniums, if you buy from the wrong dealer, you could end up with a cheap ripoff that WILL get fried and stop working.

I've had all three chips and they're all solid, but my favorites have been the SmartXX and Xecutor, even though I've installed a lot more Xeniums, cos when I install mod chips for other people I'm uncomfortable soldering them because the extent of my soldering skills comes exclusively from the two Xbox's I've done a solder install on.  So, since Xenium has the best solderless solution that's what I've used most.  It's a fine chip . . . just not my favorite.  And the guy who runs the team Xodus, who make Xenium, is really really obnoxioius.

[shmokes]

Oh yeah, and in XBMC is really easy to get.  You can download the daily CVS build from Xbins, precompiled for your installation pleasure.  Google search "xbins tutorial" for step-by-step instructions to gain access.  This will also give you access to EVERY other utility available for the Xbox homebrew scene, including things like DVD2Xbox which lets you rip games to the hard drive and DVD_DongleFree or something, which lets you watch DVDs without buying the Xbox remote (Xbox Media Center also allows you do do this).

[pointdablame]

IIRC, XBMC is NOT on xbins, it has a seperate FTP set up for daily builds

[ChadTower]

Thanks for the info... that last post is pretty much what I just got via PM. 

I am not at all afraid of the soldering, so the LPC rebuild it will be.  I definitely don't want to be buying addons beyond the chip, though, so the Xecutor doesn't do much for me there.  Seeing as how my consoles feed into the home theater's AV receiver, and I'd have to either buy a $150 LCD remote or carry around 5 remotes with me to avoid having to walk up to the components anyway, I'm not worried about that.

The three big currently available chips seem mostly the same but do things in different ways.  It's the no addons and no dips that does it for me.

From what I saw looking into xbins, pointdablame is right.

[shmokes]

It's got a separate FTP set up, but you get login instructions and are given access to it by logging into xbins through mIRC.  If you try to connect to either FTP server without first logging into the xbins IRC server your FTP client will be denied access.

[shmokes]

Well, that being said, I'd probably go with the SmartXX or the Xecuter3.  All the chips use the Xecuter's BIOS for one thing.  That team just does more than most thers for the scene.  SmartXX, in my opinion, has the better chip from a hardware standpoint, between Xenium and SmartXX (hence the major problem Xenium has had with ---smurfy--- clones).  If you're not going solderless, I'd go with one of the others.  It'd be one thing if there were significant price differences, but since they're all basically priced the same, IIRC, even if you don't plan to buy extras the fact that you have that option if you ever change your mind should factor into your decision because it's an extra that you aren't paying for.  You wouldn't want to pay for it if the chance was low that you would ever use it, but if you're not paying for it you may as well have the option.

FWIW, another thing that impresses me about the SmartXX is that their newest chip actually supports the X3 (Xecuter) LCD.  Rather than develop a proprietary solution, they decided to just support Xecutor's add-on product and create kind of a standard for LCD addons.  This is really nice (though I don't recommend getting an LCD for the Xbox -- it's totally useless).  But I put an LCD on mine and it was 24 solder points (26, I guess, if you include the diode) and they were pretty small and easy to run together.  The X3 LCD is just a little cable that plugs direcly into the chip.

Also, the X3IR -- the gadget that lets you turn your Xbox on and off remotely -- works with any modchip.  It's just a little easier to install and configure if you have an Xecuter3 chip

[ChadTower]

Looked up the SmartXX... not bad at all.

GRR... the stupid chip comparison chart at xbox-scene is apparently way outdated.  This one wasn't on there.

[Santo8742]

I went with the Xecuter 3 and I've been very happy with it. When I started investigating I had no knowledge at all on how to do it. After wading through Xbox Scene for a couple of days I was able to figure it out. Its easy enough to get the chip soldered in there, Flash it with hacked bios from xbins, put a new 250gb HD in there, and then ftp all the programs and roms over to the xbox. I probably still have tutorials (including photos and step by step instructions on the exact places the solder points go on every version) and weblinks on my computer if you need anything.

[ChadTower]

I'm all set, thanks... now it's just a matter of choosing between those two chips and waiting until I have the funds to buy one of them.

[severdhed]

I have an xecuter 2 in one xbox, and an xecuter 3 in the other, i love my x3.  I also have the x3 control panel with LCD, not that useful really, but it looks cool.

as for powering on and off with the remote, that is an awesome feature.  i bought my IR mod long before team xecuter offered theirs, like someone else said, they work with any chip.  if you are using it for media center, you need this addon. 
(as for the remote control situation, i bought a one-for-all universal LEARNING remote at walmart for $20, it learns the commands from your other remotes, just like the $150 models.  I have mine controlling my DVD player, Playstation 2, Xbox, Onkyo receiver, DLP projector, and even my air conditioner... and as soon as i borrow my friends xbox 360 remote so i can learn the commands, it will control the 360 too....my point is, you can get a good remote without  spending a fortune)

[ChadTower]

You can get a functional remote for $20... you can't get a good one.  It so isn't worth the trouble when no one can figure out the Tivo commands because I had to map them to random number keys and such.  The Tivo is what makes universal remotes a pain in the ass.  They can use Tivo but there is rarely a good set of labeled buttons that make sense for Tivo.

[shmokes]

I agree.  Harmony is the way to go.  For the functionality that you really need (read: it doesn't have a three-hour learning curve) they are the only remote you can get without spending a fortune, and you still have to spend quite a bit on them.

[SithMaster]

they have the xbox remote for dvd playback for 5usd at tru.  you dont need it to unlock playback but if you want something wireless to control it thenmaybe its for you.

[ChadTower]

It's probably worth $5.

[shmokes]

Worth more than that even.  Functions like fast-forward, pause, skip, etc., are a pain in the ass to remember on a gamepad.  Even with a universal remote you'll need an Xbox remote to make it work because the Xbox doesn't have a built-in IR receiver.  You have to get a receiver dongle that plugs into one of the controller ports.  For $5 I'd jump on that.  I think I paid $25 or $30 for mine.

[crashwg]

It's probably worth $5.

It's the official M$ version that I purchased arround launch time for $30 (which they still are every where but toysrus) and has served me quite well.

I bought 4 when I saw them for $5! 

If nothing else the reciever is good so you can program a universal.

[yalborap]

It's probably worth $5.

It's the official M$ version that I purchased arround launch time for $30 (which they still are every where but toysrus) and has served me quite well.

I bought 4 when I saw them for $5! 

If nothing else the reciever is good so you can program a universal.

On the subject of the remote, I was wondering. Does it just send the exact equivalent of gamepad commands, or does it send special 'remote' commands that a program has to have particular support for?

[crashwg]

On the subject of the remote, I was wondering. Does it just send the exact equivalent of gamepad commands, or does it send special 'remote' commands that a program has to have particular support for?

The latter.

[JackTucky]

I can't find those remotes for anywhere less than $20.  maybe ebay....

-J

[Hoagie_one]

Anyonehave any info on teh IR mod for chips other than teh X3?

[crashwg]

Anyonehave any info on teh IR mod for chips other than teh X3?

Where to buy which also contains a link to intstallation instructions and a demonstration video...

http://sickmods.net/index.php?site=shop&cat=XERCs

[Hoagie_one]

too much soldering for me.  My soldering skills is akin to a 2 year old with paste and play doh

[ChadTower]

So practice.  It is the only way to improve.

It's down to the Xenium or the SmartXX but I have a couple of weeks before the funds appear.  I can choose by then.  Stuff like this comes out of my PB+J fund.  Every day that I bring PB+J instead of buying lunch I put $4 into the bucket.  Stuff like this comes from the bucket and the bucket funded the Xbox purchase.  It currently has about $25 in it.

[Hoagie_one]

So practice.  It is the only way to improve.

It's down to the Xenium or the SmartXX but I have a couple of weeks before the funds appear.  I can choose by then.  Stuff like this comes out of my PB+J fund.  Every day that I bring PB+J instead of buying lunch I put $4 into the bucket.  Stuff like this comes from the bucket and the bucket funded the Xbox purchase.  It currently has about $25 in it.

Thats pretty smart sir.

[shmokes]

The X3IR will work with any modchip, not just the Xecutor3, but it will require soldering regardless of which chip you use.  It doesn't look like it's very difficult, though.  Certainly not as difficult as soldering the modchip itself.

[shmokes]

It's down to the Xenium or the SmartXX

I prefer the SmartXX, but to be honest they're both good chips.  I've installed five or six Xeniums and haven't had trouble with any of them.  You should probably go with whichever one is cheapest. 

[ChadTower]

They're roughly the same.  The SmartXX seems to support more external devices while the Xenium has a few more OS features.

[severdhed]

the IR mod i bought required no soldering at all, it has been a while since i ordered it...i'll look tonight when i get home to see if i can find where i got it.

[Hoagie_one]

the IR mod i bought required no soldering at all, it has been a while since i ordered it...i'll look tonight when i get home to see if i can find where i got it.

Now thats what I'm talking about

[shmokes]

They're roughly the same.  The SmartXX seems to support more external devices while the Xenium has a few more OS features.

It's been a long time since I did any comparison, but that actually surprises me.  The SmartXX was the first chip I bought and back then it was the ONLY chip with a built-in webserver for flashing the BIOS right from your web-browser (no need to burn discs, which is a pain because of the finicky xbox drives) and the only chip with a built-in FTP Server.  Plus there were lots of Hard Disk tools, etc.  It had by far the most feature packed OS.  Xenium and Xecutor played catchup for a while and Xecutor actually did some cool things with LIVE BIOS, which lets you alter the BIOS right from within the OS, rather than using a utility to make a new BIOS and reflashing.  I didn't know Xenium had pulled ahead feature-wise, but I honestly haven't really paid any attention either.

[ChadTower]

Back to this.  Ordered an Xecutor 3.  Should be here next week.  All of the sites that have version info based on serial end way before the serial on my Xbox, so I assume mine is a 1.6... I'll open it up in a few days to be sure.

[ChadTower]

No longer assuming... it's a 1.6.  I can see the RAM chip.

[ChadTower]

Holy eff those solder points are small.

[shmokes]

It's funny the satisfaction it gives me to hear this coming from someone with a lot of soldering experience.  It's why people like me, who had no soldering experience whatsoever, feel so damned proud when they hit the power button after finishing the solder job to find that they actually, amazingly got everything right.

It really is difficult, even with pictures showing the scale, to convey just how damned small those little ---daisies--- are (not to mention how close the neighboring traces are).

BTW, I hope you're using the LPC rebuild board.  It should have come with your chip, but if not you can buy one for like $5.  You just need to get that in place and put your solder on the much easier points on the rebuild board and, if it works as it should, which it usually does, the solder will flow off the edge and right onto the point on the motherboard.  Anyway, use the board and not wires.  It REALLY makes the process easier.

[ChadTower]

Chip hasn't arrived yet.  I'll take a look at what comes with it, I was thinking of just rebuilding it with standard header pins and jumper wires.  It's worth waiting a day or two if there is something in the kit that makes this easier.  I could do it this way but don't have a magnifying light handy here.

[ChadTower]

Tutorial with the 1.6 rebuild PCB... that dude needs to work on the quality of his solder points.   

[leapinlew]

Chad,

I know you already ordered the chip - good luck with that. I've done both the hard and soft mod. For my uses - the soft mod was the way to go. I installed a larger hard drive and tucked away the original drive in case I ever wanted to restore. Mine only had an 8gig in it and it's not hard to find a lockable 20+ gig drive living in an older PC.

One mistake I made with my xbox was trying to do too much junk with it - kind of like a PC. When all the smoke cleared and after using media center, jukebox software, and emulators I settled on using the xbox to copy rented/borrowed xbox games and I run a few emulators on it.

Let us know what you do with yours once you have been using it for a while.

[ChadTower]

Will do.  I'm going to toss tons of random notes on the mod experience in here as well.  I don't care about streaming music to it but I do intend to stream video.  That is my main reason for modding, to stream content to the 32" LCD we just put in our bedroom.  I'm sure my wife will be thrilled with all of the obscure pro wrestling shows that will end up there.   

I'm not going to replace the hard drive at first to keep the costs down.  I may do that later as Xbox Live isn't in my plans anyway. 

[Hoagie_one]

My modded Xbox is used

90% of the time for streaming video \ music (Mostly downloaded anime or poker shows)

5% Emulation
5% xbox games

[shmokes]

One mistake I made with my xbox was trying to do too much junk with it - kind of like a PC. When all the smoke cleared and after using media center, jukebox software, and emulators I settled on using the xbox to copy rented/borrowed xbox games and I run a few emulators on it.

Seriously, "settled" is the perfect word here.  Like Hoagie my Xbox is a media center first, game system last.  I have about 80 Xbox games and hundreds of emulated games on it, but it is used for watching videos and listening to music far more.  Additionally, I've modded about 7 or 8 other Xboxes and almost all of those are the direct result of people seeing what my Xbox can do as a media streamer.

[ChadTower]

I do want to game on it a good amount... I don't have that much to stream but when I do it will make life easier and watchable on a better screen.  There are a lot of Xbox games I've wanted to try but didn't have an Xbox.  Just picked up KOTOR, Panzer Dragoon Orta, and Fable from Gamestop.

[ChadTower]

Nice video...  dude needs to stop melting his solder directly with the tip though.   

[Silver]

Hmmm, I see your point about the old info/very confusing forums on modding.

I'm planning to mod an xbox so I can use it for mp3/video/emulation (and probably 5% xbox games). I am confused as to what the newer chips offer over the softmod?

What do you plan doing that needs the chip?

[ChadTower]

Well, from what I have been able to tell, modchips allow you to do a LOT more things.  I haven't really researched soft mods so I don't know specifically what they allow and what risks they carry.

[Hoagie_one]

Modchips excel if you still want to play on live, need hardware ftp support, multiple bioses.  Stuff like that.

Just so people know, i have all teh stuff to do a softmod and I'm willing to do it for free (in my free time) if you pay to send it to me and pay for return postage.

[Silver]

This has prompted me to mode an xbox, so I've got a cheap 2nd hand one on route, and a Duox2(cromwell) heading my way.

Gone for the cheap modchip as I don't want multiple bioss etc...  I want to stick in a large HD, make it look nice (dashboard?) play video and emus and about 3 xbox games. I have no plans to ever go on Live.

From what I understand I can set most of this up with an installer disc - is that right?

There seem to be a stack of different dashboards. Any tips on where to look for a comparision?

PS - sorry if this is a thread hijacking. Maybe I should jump to a new one?

[Hoagie_one]

you can use xbox media center as your dashboard.  Makes it easy for video\audio streaming and with a click y ou can access emulators and games as well

[ChadTower]

Not hijacking... post away.

[Silver]

you can use xbox media center as your dashboard.  Makes it easy for video\audio streaming and with a click y ou can access emulators and games as well

Ok thanks. Does It matter what bios I use? it seems there is not much difference so long as they allow unsigned code...

Whats the most straightforward way to install xbmc?
How do you install emus onto the HD?

[SNAAKE]

straightest way is to get my customer later install that installs xbmc360 for you..AUTOMATICLY ! AIM me and I will send you the ISO if you want

snaaake718 

[shmokes]

But then switch back to Project Mayhem cos it looks so much nicer 

[Hoagie_one]

If you are into torrents, you can find an ultimate installer Iso on many sites.  I beleive they are up to version3.1 or something.  It has almost every common program, dash, bios, and emulator on it and you can choose which you want to install from teh disk.

It can be used in the softmod process or with modchip.

[slycrel]

I'll poke my head in here and give a plug for softmodding.

While the hardware mod can be a lot of fun, from what I understand of the technicalities, softmodding can do it all just as well, as long as someone has written it.  The big deal breaker is xbox live, that's where the softmodding gets into trouble areas.  I think the chips are better featured because they make people money.

I've got a 200 gig drive in my xbox with a softmod, it's very handy having everything on the HDD.  I also have a softmodded xbox in my arcade machine.  They get used mostly for emulation, gaming, and occasionally some video/streaming.  (MAME first, then sega/snes/2600)  Rarely xbox games anymore though I own a bunch.  I've had a lot of fun re-playing out of this world (PC port to the xbox) on there as well.

Best of luck, keep us updated on how it works out for you.  =)

[Silver]

@Snaake

Thanks - I don't use aim. Is this an ISO you made? or is it available elsewhere...

@schmokes

eh? Sounds like more reading for me...

@Hoagie_one

Thanks - there seem to be a large number of install torrents around: "Mannzon.com-installer" "X-Wizard Multiinstaller" "XBMC-CVS-install" "ZXBinstaller 3.1" "Slayers Autoinstaller". It is not clear whats different....

@slycrel

Thanks, having read up more, it does appear that a softmod would have probably suited my needs fine as I don't care for Live, but I got one of the cheapest chips so at least I will just be flashing its bios, leaving the xbox's intact.

[Hoagie_one]

i was refering to slayers, but the others are similar if not downright teh same.

I've never upgraded a harddrive on a softmod, anyone want to tell me the easiest way to do that?

[ChadTower]

I thought about a softmod but those downloaded installs scare me.  How do you know it isn't really malware if it's not from a trusted source?

[Hoagie_one]

Well, I could send you the files that I have and have used that work.  HAvn't heard too much about people bricking their xboxes.  Most xboxes can be fixed with a modchip anyways.

[ChadTower]

Good malware wouldn't brick your Xbox.  It would install listeners on it that a hacker could control.  Things like spam senders.  A person would probably never think to look on their xbox for spyware.

[Hoagie_one]

cant help ya with that.  I just asked in teh community and found the recommended software and used it.

[shmokes]

@schmokes

eh? Sounds like more reading for me...

Oh . . . Project Mayhem is the default skin for XBMC.  Snaake mentioned that his installer would include MC360, which is a fairly impressive skin that mimics the media center layout of the Xbox 360.  A lot of people are all about the MC360 skin, but I don't think it looks nearly as professional and attractive as Project Mayhem.

Anyway . . . it's not important.  You can switch between the different skins in the settings menu so you can just try them both out and see which you like.

[ChadTower]

FWIW, doesn't make a bit of difference to me.  If it has reasonable usability, looks professional, and is the default, that works for me.  It's all about the functionality for me.

[Ed_McCarron]

Good malware wouldn't brick your Xbox.  It would install listeners on it that a hacker could control.  Things like spam senders.  A person would probably never think to look on their xbox for spyware.

Dang nab it, Chads on to my plans to co-opt his XBOX into sending threatening emails to the president.

[ChadTower]

Jong Il is sick of hearing from me by now anyway.

[crashwg]

dude needs to stop melting his solder directly with the tip though.   

What exactly do you mean by that?  I'm relatively new to soldering and I do it exactly the same way as shown in the vid.  If there's something wrong about that a tip on the "right way according to CT" I'm listening.  Or reading rather...

[ChadTower]

Heat the components, not the solder.  You shouldn't have to touch the solder directly to the tip.  It burns off the flux FAST, actually draws it away from the components rather than towards it, and you lose control of the solder.  Solder flows towards heat so if it can bypass the component and go straight for the source it usually will.

[slycrel]

I've got a good set of instructions for my bigger HDD softmod.  I did a lot of looking around and found one that had 3 languages support but wasn't advertised at all on the main sites.  I think it was for the more serious (or european?) modder community.

99% sure it doesn't have malware in it, but I could be wrong.  Why waste your time with xboxes when there are so many unsecured PC's on the internet in general out there?

If anyone wants the stuff PM me, happy to hook ya up.

[ChadTower]

.  Why waste your time with xboxes when there are so many unsecured PC's on the internet in general out there?

Because no one is going to look on their Xbox, and really, all a spammer needs is a couple of boxes to stay up and working with their stuff.  A reasonable PC user knows how to download AdAware and use it.  That stuff isn't available for the Xbox.

Odds are the packages out there are clean but being a security oriented software engineer I'm paranoid about such things.

BTW, extreme-mods.com are slow.  I still don't have the chip I ordered and I paid for 3-5 day shipping on the 22nd.  There was a holiday in there but still, we're well past 5 USPS business days now.  The Xbox has been sitting dismantled on my work bench for a week and a half now.  That's too high traffic a spot for something with a billion pieces.

[shmokes]

Chad,

I've never dealt with them personally, but I run into this a lot.  It seems like just about every mod-chip seller is based in Canada.  I bet money that your delay is due to your chip crossing the border.  It doesn't absolve the seller entirely, because they should really advertise this so that their customer has realistic expectations about shipping, but the outfit itself very likely shipped the chip to you immediately and the delay is with the Canada and U.S. postal systems.

[ChadTower]

Oh, I wouldn't have had issues with it at all except that it specifically said 2-5 day shipping (just went back to confirm, it's 2 and not 3) via USPS First Class.  That implies, at least to me, that they are inside the US. 

We'll see what the box says when it arrives.  I'm usually pretty patient because I have 100 other things that need doing as well.  Not sure why this one annoyed me.

United States Postal Service (1 x 0.8lbs) (First-Class Mail (2 - 5 Days)):     $5.27

[shmokes]

Trust me . . . it's coming from Canada.   

I went through exactly the same thing.  I ordered from Divineo and the shipping was listed exactly as you described.  I finally sent them an email saying, "Where in the hell is my modchip?"  And they said that the 2-5 day USPS that they listed wouldn't actually kick in until the package made it through customs and into the U.S.  Yeah . . . retarded.

[ChadTower]

Ah.  Well, I'm still sneering at their web page.  Sneering with intent.

[Silver]

Ah.  Well, I'm still sneering at their web page.  Sneering with intent.

Heh, I had a loooong delay with Diveneo years back - although I am in the UK, so dealt with there UK arm. Despite saying UK stock, it was shipped from abroad, and as well as being 10 days late, I had to go and pick it up and pay custom charges...

I ordered my chip (duox2) last thurs, and pleased to say it arrived on sat with regular shipping. And Xbox arrived today, though I've not tested it... Too much else to do!!

If anyone wants the stuff PM me, happy to hook ya up.

Yes please - post or PM would be great. I'm after info a large HD.

I'm currently unclear on large HD support - whats the largest that can be supported? Some bios's seem to indicate you need to patch a offset to get LBA48 support?

For that matter - what bios should I use with a DuoX2?


So much info to wade through...

[ChadTower]

It arrived today.  From Illinois.   

[JoyMonkey]

I ordered my chip (duox2) last thurs, and pleased to say it arrived on sat with regular shipping. And Xbox arrived today, though I've not tested it... Too much else to do!!
...
I'm currently unclear on large HD support - whats the largest that can be supported? Some bios's seem to indicate you need to patch a offset to get LBA48 support?

For that matter - what bios should I use with a DuoX2?

Evox M8+ is probobaly the most common BIOS used for DuoX2's.
If you've got a 1.6 Xbox you'll need a 1.6 specific BIOS. Also, the DuoX2 will only take a bios file that's 512kb, so you might need to resize it. Once you've got the appropriate Evox bios, you can use EvoxTool to resize it and make some small adjustments to the bios (change led/logo colors, enable large disk support, change boot priority etc). Flashing the DuoX2's BIOS is easiest from FlashBios, which is usually on one of the DuoX2s BIOS banks- you just boot the Xbox to Flashbios with a network cable attached, enter the Xbox's IP into Firefox (the IP will be displayed on the FlashBios screen), then point it towards your bios.bin file.

I'm not sure what the largest drive you can put in there, I use my Xbox's mostly for XBMC and stream most of their content from a PC, so I've never used anything bigger than 120gb.

[ChadTower]

I'm not even upgrading mine right now.  Maybe later, after Xmas.

EDIT:  header pins are in.  I really need a magnifying lens/worklight setup.

EDIT2:  keep getting interrupted.  Motherboard is back in, connecting all things to modchip, about to plug modchip in.  Not sure what that pot is on the corner of the mod PCB.

EDIT3:  doesn't work, no video, flashing red/green eject button.

EDIT4:  Got to the dashboard, so it boots now.  Had the dips set wrong I guess.  The X3 switch LED is still red.  No FlashBIOS screen yet.  I have to stop working on it for tonight, have actual work to do now.  Maybe I have the mod PCB hardware level flash protection dip set wrong.

[shmokes]

When I soldered my Xecuter I seem to remember having the same problem.  If I remember right I had missed an entire solder point.   Look at the picture where I have the yellow arrow.  I had connected this solder pad to the header pin that sticks through the board, but I didn't realize that I was also supposed to let solder flow off the rebuild board onto that little through point or whatever it's called on the Xbox motherboard.

Anyway, it had me stumped cos the chip seemed to be coming on, but I couldn't get that damned LED to turn blue.  I had assumed that the solder must all be correct or the Xbox would be FRAGing (Flashing Red and Green eject light).  But, no.  I had, indeed, missed a solder point.  Once I got that on there everything game up perfectly.

[Silver]

Well you're streaking ahead of me....

Had the xbox apart, looks like a v1.2 or 1.3 (serial inconclusive, so I'll never know...) It's a v1.3. Which should mean a nice and "easy" install - just the lpt pin header,d0 and the eject button I think....

And you're right D0 IS small! Think i'm going to have to take this to work where I can use a workbench setup...

[lloydcom]

Isn't this all kinda illegal?

I'm surprised that Saint allows this type of discussion on this subject.  I mean its not arcade cabinet related is  it? 

Granted its a console message board but to discuss modifying a Xbox could land you some jail time if caught with the goods.  Since this topic is served on other sites, should this really be here?

This is not a good direction to teach the children of today, is it?

Come on guys keep it clean!

[Silver]

I believe (but maybe someone can correct) that all this is completely legal.

I am aware that modchips are used by people to play games illegally, but the actual chips themselves are legal to buy/sell/install. You simply void your warranty by opening the box.

I have no interest in playing xbox games - I'm doing this to build a (very) cheap media centre that does not look like PC that can play my music, stream my videos etc etc... I'm pretty sure I'm not breaking any laws by doing this.

If this is illegal, then I agree we probably not discuss it on these boards.

[lloydcom]

I think you will find fitting such a device is illegal.   

[SNAAKE]

I hate forum policias

[ChadTower]

The chips themselves are entirely legal because they do not contain a hacked bios.  Not until you put it on there yourself post install.  You are entitled to hack up a device you own until the cows come home, it's not legally circumvention of technology until you have loaded the altered software.  That's why it is legal to sell modchips... no bios on them.  You have to get one somewhere else and put it on yourself.  On boot, until I flash a new BIOS  onto the modchip, it behaves as a simple passthru and boots to the default Xbox BIOS that existed before I installed the mod.  That is how my Xbox is right now.

Shmokes, thanks, that may actually be the case.  I'll take a look in the next day or two.  I remember all of the solder points I did but don't recall a throughhole point right there.  This is one of those times I REALLY wish I had a tiny point tip... the smallest one I have is a little too big to be elegant with these tiny points.  I'm used to larger ones from component legs.

[lloydcom]

Fine, prove your point by emailing Microsoft with your intentions to modify a Xbox. 

Here is the address: piracy@microsoft.com

I'm sure they will be happy to assist you in your endeavours.  Make sure you put your residential address and telephone number where you can be reached (arrested). 

You might want to courtesy copy in the DMCA while you are at it.  Something your lawyer will have a laugh with you when he meets you at lockup.

Please post in the forum their responses from Microsoft and the DMCA.

If it is legal and they have no objections modifying an xbox I will apologise to all duly and sincerely.

[Silver]

A bit of research indicates it actually depends on which country you are in.

Indeed it appears that in recent times in the UK, modchips have been 'classed' as illegal devices - but perfectly legal in austrailia, for example. No idea about the US.

However, it also appears its not that simple - all legal cases that have been brought have always included either:

1) Distribution of pirated games
2) Distribution of chips which contain a modified Xbox bios. (ie modified MS code).

No legal cases have been brought (in the UK anyway) against modchip sellers and resellers who include non-infiringing bios, such as linux code - as for example the chip I bought does. There is not much illegal about selling a eeprom chip on a PCB which contains freely available linux bootcode to boot a PC. (We do that all the time at work, in large quantities).

The big case in the states against a company called Pandoras box where the guy went down was because he was selling xboxs with harddrives full of copied games. Woops.

[lloydcom]

A bit of research indicates it actually depends on which country you are in.

Indeed it appears that in recent times in the UK, modchips have been 'classed' as illegal devices - but perfectly legal in austrailia, for example. No idea about the US.

However, it also appears its not that simple - all legal cases that have been brought have always included either:

1) Distribution of pirated games
2) Distribution of chips which contain a modified Xbox bios. (ie modified MS code).

No legal cases have been brought (in the UK anyway) against modchip sellers and resellers who include non-infiringing bios, such as linux code - as for example the chip I bought does. There is not much illegal about selling a eeprom chip on a PCB which contains freely available linux bootcode to boot a PC. (We do that all the time at work, in large quantities).

The big case in the states against a company called Pandoras box where the guy went down was because he was selling xboxs with harddrives full of copied games. Woops.

Funny you should bring that up as there was a guy selling xboxes in Cambridge, UK getting nicked for just that.

If you are going to do something dodgy then its up to you as you are responsible for what you do in life.  You get caught you pay the piper.

Just please don't promote it here.  Its not right and against the rules:

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=10849.msg82702#msg82702   

[ChadTower]

So you are anti-homebrew for consoles?

[Silver]

"No linking to mod-chips, binaries of illegal emus (ie X-Box emus made with the hacked MS SDK), or talk about backups/pirating games. This rule is for our (BYOAC's) protection."

As far as I can see, no one has linked to modchips, nor any binaries. And the discussion has been about media centers...

Anyway, if this is causing contention maybe a mod can make a call about the thread.

[Silver]

Funny you should bring that up as there was a guy selling xboxes in Cambridge, UK getting nicked for just that.

"The Cambridge student, whose name hasn't been released to the press, operated a business where he chipped the systems, installed roomy 200 GB, and then loaded them with 80 games. That seems to be what made him such a target, merely chipping a system is one thing,  selling pirated games preinstalled is something most law enforcement agencies don't have a sense of humor about. "

Yep, the problem comes from sticking 80 illegally copied games on the system and selling it for a profit. You fall foul of all sorts of laws doing that.

[pointdablame]

Isn't this all kinda illegal?

I'm surprised that Saint allows this type of discussion on this subject.  I mean its not arcade cabinet related is  it? 

Granted its a console message board but to discuss modifying a Xbox could land you some jail time if caught with the goods.  Since this topic is served on other sites, should this really be here?

This is not a good direction to teach the children of today, is it?

Come on guys keep it clean!

what's up with all the holier-than-thou attitude lately?  No devhook for PSP, can't mod an Xbox.   You realize you are on a site where we build arcade controls to play games... and we may or may not legally be able to do so.

MAME is a door to illegal activity just like a modchip or devhook CAN be... but there are legit reasons to use them.

And I'm not sure where you're getting your info, but it is NOT illegal to mod your Xbox.  Using MS's bios is, and playing stolen games obviously is.  But you can modify your system in any way you see fit.  The modchip itself does not circumvent protection until a bios is installed, and the DMCA is not relevant in this case.

SELLING modded system is also a totally different story.  Chad is modding his box to serve mostly as a media center.  There is nothing illegal about that except the bios.  And MS isn't really going to care if he does it unless he starts pirating 100 games that he would have bought otherwise.

Stop the preachy attitude.  If you don't like what's being discussed, stay out of it, or talk to the mods.  They'll decide if its ok or not.   

[ChadTower]

I believe I did link to a modchip, actually, so that was my bad.

I'm sure the mods are aware of this thread.  Given how openly pro-IP rights I have always been, which isn't an easy stance to take on a MAME heavy message board, I may have some credibility here when it comes to console mod discussions.

Homebrew legalities vary by their own nature.  I am not sure if XBMC is compiled using MS' signature.  If it is, then technically it is illegal, but since you have to install a modchip to run XBMC, and the modchip is to allow unsigned code, I assume XBMC is neither using MS' signature nor is illegal.

I believe that technically, the altered BIOS that will need to be loaded is signed and thus not a proper topic for here.  No one has really talked about the BIOS in this thread.


FWIW, this is Wikipedia's entry on the subject:

USA legality under DMCA

The Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA) cites that circumvention devices, including, but not limited to mod-chips, are illegal, because the device circumvents the copy-protection features of their host systems.

[pointdablame]

I believe I did link to a modchip, actually, so that was my bad.

I'm sure the mods are aware of this thread. 

even so, the legality of modchips is at questionable, so there's no definite reason to get all high and  mighty like that.  I'm betting your modchip came with no bios or cromwell, which is NOT illegal.  So you bought a PCB with a legal bios.. end of story.

[ChadTower]

It came with FlashBIOS, which I believe is the BIOS that allows you to boot with HTTP/FTP/DVD enabled so that you can then put whatever other BIOS you want on there.  I haven't gotten it to load up FlashBIOS yet, though, as I suspect I missed that solder point shmokes suggested.

[pointdablame]

It came with FlashBIOS, which I believe is the BIOS that allows you to boot with HTTP/FTP/DVD enabled so that you can then put whatever other BIOS you want on there.  I haven't gotten it to load up FlashBIOS yet, though, as I suspect I missed that solder point shmokes suggested.

FlashBios is not illegal either AFAIK.

I haven't used a rebuild board myself since I've never modded a 1.6, but Shmokes idea seems solid.  I'd certainly check it.  Be careful checking the D0 point as well. Many people give the usual tug test and rip the trace right up.  You seem to have gotten the D0 down fine, but just a note.

[ChadTower]

Yeah, I know better than the usual tug test.  Made that mistake on a pinball driver board last year.  Never again. 

If I had to do this rebuild over again I'd have done it without the 1.6 rebuild PCB.  It didn't fit quite right and I had to tape it down bent a little bit to get it to hit all of the proper points.  It made for less thought, certainly, since there is less chance of soldering to the wrong point, but you can't see if you made a mistake either.

[JackTucky]

If I had to do this rebuild over again I'd have done it without the 1.6 rebuild PCB. 

I got some advice to do mine without the board.  That's the way I went.

Jacktucky

[JoyMonkey]

Homebrew legalities vary by their own nature.  I am not sure if XBMC is compiled using MS' signature.  If it is, then technically it is illegal, but since you have to install a modchip to run XBMC, and the modchip is to allow unsigned code, I assume XBMC is neither using MS' signature nor is illegal.

XBMC has to be compiled using Microsofts XDK, which is illegal to do without Microsofts license. But there it gets a little grey; it's illegal to compile it, it's illegal to distribute it, but as far as I can tell there is nothing unlawful about running the compiled code.

Microsoft must kick themselves for not creating something as awesome as XBMC themselves, but if they wanted the project to be shut down I'm sure they could find a way to do it in a heart beat. At one point they did request that the Xbox 360 logo be removed from the MC360 skin, but to my knowledge have never tried to stop the project or threaten any of its programmers with legal action.

[ChadTower]

I believe they were waiting on the 360 to release that sort of functionality... probably figured they couldn't do it in the Xbox's default resources. 

[pointdablame]

I believe they were waiting on the 360 to release that sort of functionality... probably figured they couldn't do it in the Xbox's default resources. 

which seems funny now when you load up XBMC and see just how fleshed out it is.  It's an amazing program.. so much so that I haven't even thought of trying the media functions of my 360 yet.

[ChadTower]

Independent coders are more aggressive about filling requirements within limited resources than coroporate coders are.  Corporate coders (such as myself) will fill the requirements but unless resource limits are within those requirements, and they rarely are, the goal is to satisfy functionality and appearance with only some regard to performance.  Microsoft is one of the worst on the planet for that, too, with how they are constantly using 50x more CPU/RAM/space to do things that open source coders are doing better on older boxes.

Sadly, with MS' model and the way this industry works, it actually makes sense that MS couldn't do what the open source community did.

[pointdablame]

Sadly, with MS' model and the way this industry works, it actually makes sense that MS couldn't do what the open source community did.

Very true.  Regardless of how it happened though, I'm glad it did.  XBMC is a really wonderful piece of software.

[shmokes]

The XBMC team approached MS with their product a while back and MS turned it down.  Wouldn't give them a license.  Seems pretty crazy because it's such a solid product and the PS2 and Gamecube couldn't touch it.  And since it's small enough to fit on the hard drive MS could have given people the option of having it replace the stock dashboard so you wouldn't even need a disc in (of course it would lose the ability to play pirated games).

I suppose they didn't want such a fantastic product competing with their lame Media Center Extender that isn't nearly as functional and will only work with a Media Center version of Windows.

Anyway, you could email MS with your intentions all you want.  Modding Xboxes is 100% legal.  You can even run Linux on it if you really wanted to have a media center with no legal questions (as mentioned, compiling XBMC requires the unlicensed use of Microsoft's XDK).  In fact, Microsoft has the name/address/credit card information of hundreds of people whose accounts they have banned on Live for trying to play with a pirated game, or using a mod to allow them to cheat. 

[slycrel]

Isn't this all kinda illegal?

I'm surprised that Saint allows this type of discussion on this subject.  I mean its not arcade cabinet related is  it? 

Granted its a console message board but to discuss modifying a Xbox could land you some jail time if caught with the goods.  Since this topic is served on other sites, should this really be here?

This is not a good direction to teach the children of today, is it?

Come on guys keep it clean!

I think I can understand where you're coming from.  I think.

FWIW, my modded xbox is in my arcade cabinet.  Others have them there as well -- that's definitely an alternative if you want to go that route.

This whole teach the children thing..  it scares me.

I am a programmer.  Intellectual property rights are what feed my family.  However, modding a piece of equipment may be a breach of contract (terms of use crap) but it is not illegal in that there's a law preventing you from modding equipment.  As has been pointed out, if you're using a modified MS Bios tehn you're -using- a piece of software that has been illegally obtained and created, but I'm not sure it's illegal to USE.  Think of the FBI warnings on movies.  They talk about copying and distributing, not viewing.

Yes, this is splitting hairs.  Yes, it's a grey area of the law.  No, I don't think MS is excited about modders.

I also don't think that modding a personal xbox for legal software use hurts anyone.  Now if you're pirating a ton of games, yeah, I'll never condone that.  There's lots of bad stuff that CAN happen in a modded xbox situation, but simply owning a modded xbox doesn't make you a criminal.  Unless there are laws out there that I've not encountered yet.

[lloydcom]

Then lets get a solid answer from Saint.  He makes the rules, and it is his site.

I'm really impressed that the above posters have made factual enquiries about modding copyrighted equpment.  I know someone very close to me who is employed by the said company. 

Shall I ask him for the definitive answer too?  I already know the answer.

AFAIK is a load of  .

AFAIK means nothing. 

You open a perfectly working piece of equipment to bypass the bios to load other programs not designed by the company who created the system, is circumventing and is against the law as set by the DMCA.  Unless you are a library and want to catalogue outdated softwares for the use in education or a historian, you are breaking the law.

This is something I do not want children to learn, or to read about thinking "its cool to steal".  Try explaining this to children after learning the concept and then make the connection that stealing your car is a good idea too.  I'm not getting Twilight Zoney here. 

Because its that simple guys.  Softmodding, Mod chips, pirating games, etc. is wrong.  Not because I'm being a troll or being lame or spoiling your fun as you want to play donkey kong yet again on a system you can easily get working on an old PC.

I'm all for hacking controllers or adding features like vga boxes or converstions to arcade monitors, because it doesn't hurt anyone.  And its is in the spirit that this site was created.

If Bill Gates and Microsoft wanted you, the consumer to run such code, he/they would make a provision for it.  I'm just totally surprised that full grown adults are finding this concept difficult to grasp. 

I know we have MAME and the rom issue is old hat.  Big deal.  I'm sure you guys own every rom/eprom/pcb that is in your collection.  I'm not pointing fingers at that.

I love homebrew, got some on my PSP via the Tiff exploit, and I think its cool, but I am not hacking the PSP to lay ripped ISOs like some others that can run dev hook 3.xxx and gleefully think its cool.  I buy my games, and I don't need to hack to play dig dug.  I bought Namco Battle Museum and it rocks.
 
But not something like the Xbox that is very still alive in the marketplace, that still has an attraction to the youngsters who do not have resources to buy games or maybe parents who are not able to afford them, to lead them down this path.

What about the developers who write the games?  NAMCO, Nintendo, Sega, Atari?  Its because of them we have this hobby, is it fair to them?  If you want a media centre get a Xbox 360.

Here I go because nobody wants to listen.....

* I've deleted my Tiff exploit as mentioned by ChadTower, but I still like homebrew.  Maybe Sony will make a licensed way to play it someday.

[ChadTower]

Erm, you do know, that an "exploit" is simply circumvention via an existing defect in the product, yes? 

[JackTucky]

Whether gates wanted us to do it or not does not make it illegal.

Your posts, however, make me want to go to jail.

-J

[lloydcom]

Erm, you do know, that an "exploit" is simply circumvention via an existing defect in the product, yes? 

Yes and shame on me.  I'll just delete it now.  Done.  Can you do that with your soldered modded xbox Chad?

[ChadTower]

No, nor do I particularly care for a half reasoned diatribe on the ethics of IP management.  I've been in this field for a long time now and have a full comprehension of it and what the actual issues are, thanks.  You're preaching to the wrong guy.

[pointdablame]

But not something like the Xbox that is very still alive in the marketplace, that still has an attraction to the youngsters who do not have resources to buy games or maybe parents who are not able to afford them, to lead them down this path.

What about the developers who write the games?  NAMCO, Nintendo, Sega, Atari?  Its because of them we have this hobby, is it fair to them?  If you want a media centre get a Xbox 360.

Here I go because nobody wants to listen.....

you're making a huge ASSumption that a modded Xbox automatically equals stolen games and piracy.  That's just wrong, and plain stupid.

I have 2 modded Xboxes.  I own a good number of games for it.  Know when the last time I PLAYED a game on my xbox was?  I can't even remember.  I use my Xbox as a media center.  It plays all my music and videos throughout my home network onto my tv.  Guess what... I timeshift my TV shows too, perhaps you can give me a piracy email account for Fox and NBC?  I also rip all of my music CDs so I can play them throughout my house.  Better let your friends at Sony and BMG know about me too.

Modification of hardware is NOT wrong in and of itself, and I don't even care what the DMCA or similar laws state.  Remember, this is the law that initally told us we could make copies of our DVDs, but couldn't circumvent protections.  Oh yeah... but you can't make copies WITHOUT breaking the protection... awesome legislation guys.  I can see what you stick so concretely to such a well written act.

Mod chips are not illegal.  What you do with them may or may not be.  I find it hard that you can't grasp that.  And as for MS caring, it again comes down to how you use your modded box.  I bought my Xbox... I bought games for it... I bought controllers and accessories.  I also modded it and use it as a media center, an option that MS does not give me.  I have in no way affected the revenue stream that Microsoft would get from my purchase.  Why is that so hard a concept to understand?

And the TIFF exploit is a hack/mod/alteration just as much as DevHook is.  And again, you can use DevHook to run homebrew just like you can use it to run ISOs.  You're making broad assumptions on usage that make you look silly.  A butter knife could probably kill someone, should we outlaw those?  Just because something can be used for devious means, that item is not automatically wrong and illegal.

[pointdablame]

Erm, you do know, that an "exploit" is simply circumvention via an existing defect in the product, yes? 

Yes and shame on me.  I'll just delete it now.  Done.  Can you do that with your soldered modded xbox Chad?

um yeah.. he can.  Since when is solder a non-reversible process?  You can un-mod an Xbox as easily as you can mod it.

[lloydcom]

But not something like the Xbox that is very still alive in the marketplace, that still has an attraction to the youngsters who do not have resources to buy games or maybe parents who are not able to afford them, to lead them down this path.

What about the developers who write the games?  NAMCO, Nintendo, Sega, Atari?  Its because of them we have this hobby, is it fair to them?  If you want a media centre get a Xbox 360.

Here I go because nobody wants to listen.....

you're making a huge ASSumption that a modded Xbox automatically equals stolen games and piracy.  That's just wrong, and plain stupid.

I have 2 modded Xboxes.  I own a good number of games for it.  Know when the last time I PLAYED a game on my xbox was?  I can't even remember.  I use my Xbox as a media center.  It plays all my music and videos throughout my home network onto my tv.  Guess what... I timeshift my TV shows too, perhaps you can give me a piracy email account for Fox and NBC?  I also rip all of my music CDs so I can play them throughout my house.  Better let your friends at Sony and BMG know about me too.

Modification of hardware is NOT wrong in and of itself, and I don't even care what the DMCA or similar laws state.  Remember, this is the law that initally told us we could make copies of our DVDs, but couldn't circumvent protections.  Oh yeah... but you can't make copies WITHOUT breaking the protection... awesome legislation guys.  I can see what you stick so concretely to such a well written act.

Mod chips are not illegal.  What you do with them may or may not be.  I find it hard that you can't grasp that.  And as for MS caring, it again comes down to how you use your modded box.  I bought my Xbox... I bought games for it... I bought controllers and accessories.  I also modded it and use it as a media center, an option that MS does not give me.  I have in no way affected the revenue stream that Microsoft would get from my purchase.  Why is that so hard a concept to understand?

And the TIFF exploit is a hack/mod/alteration just as much as DevHook is.  And again, you can use DevHook to run homebrew just like you can use it to run ISOs.  You're making broad assumptions on usage that make you look silly.  A butter knife could probably kill someone, should we outlaw those?  Just because something can be used for devious means, that item is not automatically wrong and illegal.

I can go out and buy a modchip.  That is legal.  Nothing wrong with it.  Could be any mod chip.  I can hang it on my wall like some modern day art. 

I can get a sledgehammer and mush it into a gazillion pieces, glue it on a wooden board and call it modern day expressionist art that I'm sure many would like to purchase. 

Nothing wrong in that.  So far we are doing nothing illegal.  We ok with that?

Still with us ChadTower, pointdablame?  We green?

Ok what we cannot do is open a xbox, PS2, PS1, DC whatever else heck even a bricked PSP and insert it in.  Its not going to magically have a slot or a connector for you to insert.  The mod chip is not endorsed by Microsoft, Sony, Sega, Etc.

I'm not going to carry this on any further.  If you have problems reading this, get your wife, mom or dad to read my posts to you.   I'm sure they will reason with you and make you understand.

[ChadTower]

Someone may want to explain to this guy the difference between the hardware and software.  Fundamentally, the concept of hardware ownership vs a license to operate the embedded software within that hardware.

Alter the hardware for any reason:   
Alter the embedded software:   

I own this Xbox.  I can physically mod it as I see fit so long as I do not alter the software it contains.  I can add fans, I can replace components, I can paint it military grey.  I have not fundamentally changed its operation because I have not changed the software that runs it.

Once I change that software, especially if I do so via a hardware modification, then I have wandered into the area you don't like.

You really don't have to try and argue this concept with me.  I spent quite a while as an embedded firmware engineer. 

[pointdablame]

Ok what we cannot do is open a xbox, PS2, PS1, DC whatever else heck even a bricked PSP and insert it in.  Its not going to magically have a slot or a connector for you to insert.  The mod chip is not endorsed by Microsoft, Sony, Sega, Etc.

I'm not going to carry this on any further.  If you have problems reading this, get your wife, mom or dad to read my posts to you.   I'm sure they will reason with you and make you understand.

so because it isn't authorized by the company and it doesn't have a "slot" to insert it in, its ILLEGAL?  wow.

So is it illegal to fit a supercharger to my car? It's not authorized by the company... it doesn't have a "supercharger slot" that just plugs right in in 2 seconds.  So its illegal? No.  Your explanation above is extremely narrow, and just untrue.  Endorsement and fit have nothing to do with the legality of modchips (or any hardware modification).

Now the DMCA says that the use of modchips to circumvent protections used on software (in this case games) is illegal.  I'm not disputing what it says, I'm disputing that the automatic use of a modchip = illegality.  That is very narrow minded.

Why, in your mind, is it illegal for me to use my Xbox as a media center?  My use of an alternate BIOS is at best a legal grey area, and at worst I violation of MS's TOS, but where am I circumventing copy protection in order to illegally use copyrighted works?  How is that hurting the game developers you mention previously?


And excellent use of the "i'm not gonna respond anymore" card.  Well done.. very well done.  You sure showed us.  Oh and the mom and dad crack.... I can really tell you've done this before.

[Grasshopper]

Ok what we cannot do is open a xbox, PS2, PS1, DC whatever else heck even a bricked PSP and insert it in.  Its not going to magically have a slot or a connector for you to insert.  The mod chip is not endorsed by Microsoft, Sony, Sega, Etc.

Chad's correct. Using a modchip is 100% legal. It's no different to adding third party alloy wheels to a Ford car. Ford may not endorse the wheels but there's nothing they can do to prevent you from fitting them.

[pointdablame]

Ok what we cannot do is open a xbox, PS2, PS1, DC whatever else heck even a bricked PSP and insert it in.  Its not going to magically have a slot or a connector for you to insert.  The mod chip is not endorsed by Microsoft, Sony, Sega, Etc.

Chad's correct. Using a modchip is 100% legal. It's no different to adding third party alloy wheels to a Ford car. Ford may not endorse the wheels but there's nothing they can do to prevent you from fitting them.

 

[Silver]

I wrote a long reply on various points, such as your statement on "copyrighted equpment" and how I agree that pirating games is wrong, but I disagree on Softmodding and Mod chips. (and the confusion that you then openly admit to softmodding your PSP).

There was also a big point on how you seem to place what MS wants and what is legal into the same bag. There is no correlation at all between what is legal and what a company makes provision for.

But then I deleted as I realised I don't want to carry on this conversation either. If anyone does, Why don't we create new post in EE and continue there....

[pointdablame]

But then I deleted as I realised I don't want to carry on this conversation either. If anyone does, Why don't we create new post in EE and continue there....

an excellent idea.  There's a lot of good info in this thread and we've poisoned that a bit.

Maybe Peale can split this off into an EE thread from where the fun starts?

[Silver]

Back on topic...

I've got a spare HD lying around I plan to use, which is a 7200rpm job, which I suspect may get pretty hot with the lack of cooling in the Xbox HD area. I've read that 5400rpm are recommended for heat purposes (and the fact you don't get any speed benefit).

Anyone had any issues with overheating? HD or otherwise?

I'm planning to stick in a spare 80mm fan (with some creative dremmel action) in place of the stock one to cut down on all that noise. I've been surprised how loud the Xbox is - noisiest console I've ever used.

[pointdablame]

Back on topic...

I've got a spare HD lying around I plan to use, which is a 7200rpm job, which I suspect may get pretty hot with the lack of cooling in the Xbox HD area. I've read that 5400rpm are recommended for heat purposes (and the fact you don't get any speed benefit).

Anyone had any issues with overheating? HD or otherwise?

I'm planning to stick in a spare 80mm fan (with some creative dremmel action) in place of the stock one to cut down on all that noise. I've been surprised how loud the Xbox is - noisiest console I've ever used.

I've used both a 5400rpm and 7200rpm drive in an xbox with no overheating problems.  An 80mm fan will certainly help however with the 7200rpm.  The box does get warmer with the faster drive, but it's not that bad.  You'll be fine with either really.

[shmokes]

Lloyd,

Your self-righteous, tattle-tale attitude wouldn't be so hard to bare if you weren't so full of ---Cleveland steamer---. 

A#1 - Modchips are not illegal.  You don't have to buy them on the black market.  You just go to one of dozens of sites that have been around for years, and put it on your VISA like any other product.  They are not sold as art to be hung on the wall.  They're sold as devices that you can modify your Xbox with.  They're an aftermarket product, like controllers, fans, faceplates, replacement cases.

B#2 - Modchips allow you to do MANY things aside from pirating.  I know that there have already been many attempts to pound this fact into your dogmatic skull, but you seem to remain oblivious to it.

C#3 - You did not suddenly become aware that software expoits are not authorized by Sony when Chad mentioned it in this thread.  Not that your being a hypocrite is relevant to whether modding is right or wrong, just that it's comical while we watch you get all high and mighty on us.

D#4 - MAME enables piracy.  You know it as well as I do.  The vast majority of users of MAME own zero PCBs (though have thousands of ROMs).  You may own PCBs for all your games, but most people don't.  By your reasoning you should not be using MAME at all, regardless of whether you are pirating, just like Chad shouldn't be modding an Xbox for media center functionality, regardless of whether he plans to pirate games.

E#5 - Why is it okay to open up gamepads and hack them? How does turning my Xbox into a media center hurt anyone?  The only thing that you seem to be able to plug all the holes in your argument with is arrogance.

F#6 - Shut the ---fudgesicle--- up.  Go troll somewhere else.  Saint doesn't need you to hold his hand.  The thread is four pages long.  The title of the thread is "Xbox mod".  If Saint, or any other mod, thought the topic was inappropriate it would have been moved to Post Hell three pages ago. 

G#7 - Your kids are going to hate you.

[shmokes]

Back on topic...

I've used 7200 RPM drives exclusively in the 9 Xboxes I've modded and never had a problem.  On my own and one other I drilled a bunch of holes in the hard drive tray so that the heat generated by the HDD could drop straight down in front of the exhaust fan, and I drilled a bunch of holes in the top, which looks just fine thanks because I only drilled holes in the grooves already up there and you wouldn't even see them unless you're looking for them.

But these measures seem totally superfluous.  As I've said I have NEVER seen the extra heat created by a 7200 RPM drive cause problems.

[lloydcom]

Lloyd,

Your self-righteous, tattle-tale attitude wouldn't be so hard to bare if you weren't so full of ---Cleveland steamer---. 

A#1 - Modchips are not illegal.  You don't have to buy them on the black market.  You just go to one of dozens of sites that have been around for years, and put it on your VISA like any other product.  They are not sold as art to be hung on the wall.  They're sold as devices that you can modify your Xbox with.  They're an aftermarket product, like controllers, fans, faceplates, replacement cases.

B#2 - Modchips allow you to do MANY things aside from pirating.  I know that there have already been many attempts to pound this fact into your dogmatic skull, but you seem to remain oblivious to it.

C#3 - You did not suddenly become aware that software expoits are not authorized by Sony when Chad mentioned it in this thread.  Not that your being a hypocrite is relevant to whether modding is right or wrong, just that it's comical while we watch you get all high and mighty on us.

D#4 - MAME enables piracy.  You know it as well as I do.  The vast majority of users of MAME own zero PCBs (though have thousands of ROMs).  You may own PCBs for all your games, but most people don't.  By your reasoning you should not be using MAME at all, regardless of whether you are pirating, just like Chad shouldn't be modding an Xbox for media center functionality, regardless of whether he plans to pirate games.

E#5 - Why is it okay to open up gamepads and hack them? How does turning my Xbox into a media center hurt anyone?  The only thing that you seem to be able to plug all the holes in your argument with is arrogance.

F#6 - Shut the ---fudgesicle--- up.  Go troll somewhere else.  Saint doesn't need you to hold his hand.  The thread is four pages long.  The title of the thread is "Xbox mod".  If Saint, or any other mod, thought the topic was inappropriate it would have been moved to Post Hell three pages ago. 

G#7 - Your kids are going to hate you.

Lets look at your post again shall we?  I was not going to post again about this as this is already covered, but for the stupid out there I'll have another bash.  Let's look at your post one section at a time - you have had time to spell check it, etc. and it needs addressing because you have made some excellent points that I want to share.

A - Modchips are not illegal.  You don't have to buy them on the black market.  You just go to one of dozens of sites that have been around for years, and put it on your VISA like any other product.  They are not sold as art to be hung on the wall.  They're sold as devices that you can modify your Xbox with.  They're an aftermarket product, like controllers, fans, faceplates, replacement cases.

And your point is?

B - Modchips allow you to do MANY things aside from pirating.  I know that there have already been many attempts to pound this fact into your dogmatic skull, but you seem to remain oblivious to it.

Ok so lets look at what you posted above for (B).  You can do many things aside from pirating.  Ok, I go to your house see the xbox, see that it boot linux and you use it for an apache webserver.  I like that.  I can use the mod chip (already installed) and put Avalaunch on it or maybe both in each bank.  I can now pirate games.  The judgement on this moot - you hacked to run linux but nothing stops you to play pirated games right?  So again what your point?

C - You did not suddenly become aware that software expoits are not authorized by Sony when Chad mentioned it in this thread.  Not that your being a hypocrite is relevant to whether modding is right or wrong, just that it's comical while we watch you get all high and mighty on us.

High and mighty? No.  Responsible is a better word.  Knowing what is right from wrong however you flower it up.  Tiff exploits - well I haven't permanently affected or downgraded the software intentionally to infringe my TOS with Sony.  But its a good point.  I should have known better, its deleted (honestly).  No different now when I bought it - same revision.  Love it to bits.

D - D#4 - MAME enables piracy.  You know it as well as I do.  The vast majority of users of MAME own zero PCBs (though have thousands of ROMs).  You may own PCBs for all your games, but most people don't.  By your reasoning you should not be using MAME at all, regardless of whether you are pirating, just like Chad shouldn't be modding an Xbox for media center functionality, regardless of whether he plans to pirate games.

Barking up the wrong tree there mate. I physically own all my games I play on mame, and I can play the backups on mame just like the Sony Betamax argument.  Nothng wrong there, and I'm not as I said before, going there.

E - Why is it okay to open up gamepads and hack them? How does turning my Xbox into a media center hurt anyone?  The only thing that you seem to be able to plug all the holes in your argument with is arrogance.

Ok we went from hacking gamepad to hacking Xboxes to play XBMC.  Watchout on this one mate as you are opening up a can of worms.  I have seen XBMC in action and you can launch pirated games from its interface.  A bit different from your above post.  We will forget about that slip.

Remember here I'm a 24 year vet of PCs.  I was putting PCs together and selling them while you guys were in short pants or junior high.  Not to mention programming, so I'm not so dumb as you make me out to be.  Where were we? oh F?

F- Shut the ---fudgesicle--- up.  Go troll somewhere else.  Saint doesn't need you to hold his hand.  The thread is four pages long.  The title of the thread is "Xbox mod".  If Saint, or any other mod, thought the topic was inappropriate it would have been moved to Post Hell three pages ago.

Ok looks like you have exhausted your rational explanation of the subject and is going on a rant.  I bet Saint is steering well clear of this.  I don't wish him anything that would make a seasoned topic as this, get into a final decision.  I did asked before but - Sorry Saint, I over stepped the line and was rude in asking for your decision to tell this group.....

G - Your kids are going to hate you.

   All kids hate their parents when the law of the house comes crashing down.  I would respect them and be in the knowledge that my teachings were correct - to be honest, and true.  to buy the things you want from work and toil and not by stealing.  You can only do the best you can, as your kids are a reflection of you.

Wow no H. 

I think that cutting my comments from this thread will be exactly the opposite of what you were trying to imply.  That you are doing nothing wrong, putting my comments out in the lala zone will not vindicate you.

If you are going to mod - then do it without posting it and bragging about it on this board, what you do in your own home is your business.  What you post in here is everyones.

And finally: Xbox Mod can mean changing the fan, putting leds making USB connectors which you can legally do.  All I object to is the Modchip issue which is against the rules and illegal to use.

[clanggedin]

I used a 7200RPM drive in my XBOX for a long time with the stock fan and had no problems with it. I did upgrade to an 80mm fan later on, but you do have to cut the HD frame a bit to get it to fit.


LLOYD... It seems you have come to the wrong board to talk ethics and legalities. Please go find  somewhere else to blab about stuff none of us care about hearing. BTW.. I have modded Xboxes for quite a few of the police officers where I live and according to them, as long as I don't sell them with games on it then I'm OK to mod the hell out of them. There are a few others in my area that do the same thing. One even runs a commercial and no one has stopped him.

Stick to the other forums if you don't have anything constructive to say. All you have done in the Console forum is tell everyone that they are doing something illegal. If you are wanting to help so bad then stick to the building forums.

[lloydcom]

I used a 7200RPM drive in my XBOX for a long time with the stock fan and had no problems with it. I did upgrade to an 80mm fan later on, but you do have to cut the HD frame a bit to get it to fit.


LLOYD... It seems you have come to the wrong board to talk ethics and legalities. Please go find  somewhere else to blab about stuff none of us care about hearing. BTW.. I have modded Xboxes for quite a few of the police officers where I live and according to them, as long as I don't sell them with games on it then I'm OK to mod the hell out of them. There are a few others in my area that do the same thing. One even runs a commercial and no one has stopped him.

Stick to the other forums if you don't have anything constructive to say. All you have done in the Console forum is tell everyone that they are doing something illegal. If you are wanting to help so bad then stick to the building forums.

Wow that sounds great.  I don't believe you.  But it sounds great.  Thanks for sharing.

[JackTucky]

Wow that sounds great.  I don't believe you.  But it sounds great.  Thanks for sharing.

I think Maximrecoil changed his profile to lloydcom.  Another ---uvula--- debating for the sake of debating.  Please take your attitude over to the imdb forums where maximrecoil likes to hang out.  There you can argue for fun I understand.

Why don't you search the archives and see if your head will fit in your basement.

-J

[Silver]

AAAANYWAY...

Thanks for the feedback on the 7200rpm HD's everyone, looks like its no problem. And I like the idea of making some holes to allow the fanned air access to the HD. Might well do that....

[pointdablame]

I can use the mod chip (already installed) and put Avalaunch on it or maybe both in each bank.  I can now pirate games.  The judgement on this moot - you hacked to run linux but nothing stops you to play pirated games right?  So again what your point?

Again, a butter knife could probably kill someone.  There's nothing stopping me from doing that.  So are butter knives illegal?  Seriously... do you really believe this crap you are throwing?

High and mighty? No.  Responsible is a better word.  Knowing what is right from wrong however you flower it up.  Tiff exploits - well I haven't permanently affected or downgraded the software intentionally to infringe my TOS with Sony.

Woah woah woah.  So you admit to running the same homebrew that I might be running, but you are responsible?  And you know what is right and wrong?  ---That which is odiferous and causeth plants to grow---.  Just because I use a different program to load something, I'm wrong while you're totally in the clear?  Puh-lease.

Barking up the wrong tree there mate. I physically own all my games I play on mame, and I can play the backups on mame just like the Sony Betamax argument.  Nothng wrong there, and I'm not as I said before, going there.

That's great. I can respect that, seriously.  I'm wondering though... did you rip the roms from your actual board or did you download the rom somewhere?  This isn't an attack.. I'm just wondering, since you're supposed to make a copy of YOUR game, not just use roms that you own.

Ok we went from hacking gamepad to hacking Xboxes to play XBMC.  Watchout on this one mate as you are opening up a can of worms.  I have seen XBMC in action and you can launch pirated games from its interface.  A bit different from your above post.  We will forget about that slip.

You still can't seem to separate "can" and "do"  Yeah, it can load games.  That doesn't mean everyone with a modded Xbox DOES load games from it.  Guess what.. I can load a virus right from within Windows... doesn't mean we all do it.

Remember here I'm a 24 year vet of PCs.  I was putting PCs together and selling them while you guys were in short pants or junior high.  Not to mention programming, so I'm not so dumb as you make me out to be.  Where were we? oh F?

There's a medal in the mail for ya.  Congratulations.

If you are going to mod - then do it without posting it and bragging about it on this board, what you do in your own home is your business.  What you post in here is everyones.

Where are we bragging?  We're discussing the process.  Ever hear of the first amendment?  Why on Earth can't we come here and discuss the intricacies of modding a system as long as we don't say "hey want me to send you 20 illegally copied games" or some such nonsense.  Your logic is so flawed its scary.

All I object to is the Modchip issue which is against the rules and illegal to use.

It's not against the rules, and its legality is at best questionable.  Again, USING A MODCHIP IS NOT ILLEGAL.  It opens up the possibility to do illegal things, but so does many many things in life.  I applaud you for never crossing the line of any law.. ever.  Kudos to you.

If you don't like reading about this, then don't read it.  Don't preach to us about how we're corrupting the minds of the youth and creating a legion of pirates.  Give me a friggin' break.

[clanggedin]

Can't the Xecuter run an external LCD on the Xbox?? If it can then I would suggest getting one for your Xbox Chad. XBMC can be controlled from the external dispolay so you don't have to turn on your TV to stream audio from it

[pointdablame]

Can't the Xecuter run an external LCD on the Xbox?? If it can then I would suggest getting one for your Xbox Chad. XBMC can be controlled from the external dispolay so you don't have to turn on your TV to stream audio from it

Yup, the Xecuter 3 supports the X3 LCD and probably others.  I don't really care for them, but they will work.

[markrvp]

I just wanted to state that I believe Nintendo joysticks suck.  Oh, I also have two modded Xboxes - do I need an attorney to turn myself in or can I just surrender in person at the local jail?

[lloydcom]

I can use the mod chip (already installed) and put Avalaunch on it or maybe both in each bank.  I can now pirate games.  The judgement on this moot - you hacked to run linux but nothing stops you to play pirated games right?  So again what your point?

Again, a butter knife could probably kill someone.  There's nothing stopping me from doing that.  So are butter knives illegal?  Seriously... do you really believe this crap you are throwing?

High and mighty? No.  Responsible is a better word.  Knowing what is right from wrong however you flower it up.  Tiff exploits - well I haven't permanently affected or downgraded the software intentionally to infringe my TOS with Sony.

Woah woah woah.  So you admit to running the same homebrew that I might be running, but you are responsible?  And you know what is right and wrong?  ---smurf-poop---.  Just because I use a different program to load something, I'm wrong while you're totally in the clear?  Puh-lease.

Barking up the wrong tree there mate. I physically own all my games I play on mame, and I can play the backups on mame just like the Sony Betamax argument.  Nothng wrong there, and I'm not as I said before, going there.

That's great. I can respect that, seriously.  I'm wondering though... did you rip the roms from your actual board or did you download the rom somewhere?  This isn't an attack.. I'm just wondering, since you're supposed to make a copy of YOUR game, not just use roms that you own.

Ok we went from hacking gamepad to hacking Xboxes to play XBMC.  Watchout on this one mate as you are opening up a can of worms.  I have seen XBMC in action and you can launch pirated games from its interface.  A bit different from your above post.  We will forget about that slip.

You still can't seem to separate "can" and "do"  Yeah, it can load games.  That doesn't mean everyone with a modded Xbox DOES load games from it.  Guess what.. I can load a virus right from within Windows... doesn't mean we all do it.

Remember here I'm a 24 year vet of PCs.  I was putting PCs together and selling them while you guys were in short pants or junior high.  Not to mention programming, so I'm not so dumb as you make me out to be.  Where were we? oh F?

There's a medal in the mail for ya.  Congratulations.

If you are going to mod - then do it without posting it and bragging about it on this board, what you do in your own home is your business.  What you post in here is everyones.

Where are we bragging?  We're discussing the process.  Ever hear of the first amendment?  Why on Earth can't we come here and discuss the intricacies of modding a system as long as we don't say "hey want me to send you 20 illegally copied games" or some such nonsense.  Your logic is so flawed its scary.

All I object to is the Modchip issue which is against the rules and illegal to use.

It's not against the rules, and its legality is at best questionable.  Again, USING A MODCHIP IS NOT ILLEGAL.  It opens up the possibility to do illegal things, but so does many many things in life.  I applaud you for never crossing the line of any law.. ever.  Kudos to you.

If you don't like reading about this, then don't read it.  Don't preach to us about how we're corrupting the minds of the youth and creating a legion of pirates.  Give me a friggin' break.

Apples and oranges.

Butter knife again?  We could use lead pipe - a rope, some poison like draino.  Ever played Cludeo?

I'm not individually quoting this time.

Ok comparing Tiff exploit for hardware modding.  I like it, makes sense.  I see intoducing an image file equals to getting torc screws out of plastic.  Yep see your point.

No got the roms of mame.dk years ago and compared it to my boardset.  If the cops want to come around and do some CSI - I'm game.

You don't load viruses in windows ever?  Gee need to get some norton on your machine and have a check up.  You can see where I'm going with this.

Thanks for the medal - its a loveless industry.

Discussing the process?  Could like this to stealing a car.  You are not STEALING a car but talking about it.  Makes sense.  Hope there isn't any forums on nuclear weapons with that attitude.  You never know whos reading....

Ok using a modchip is not illegal.  Ok I will shut up now and apologise to all concerned if you can link me with some official site of Microsoft, Sony or whoever make the console that endorses modchips.  I want something to make your case crystal clear.   And I not talking about a clear xbox case mod 

I want some site that is not modchip paid for, that will be legal proof to all concerned that your points and statements made are true and accurate.

I want this.  Lets see if your ego on the subject is as good as your facts that you are representing.  Show me I don't know what I'm typing.

Please PM me on other facts as I'm sure we all had enough of this subject.  I will respond honestly and without sarcasm.

Apologies to others regarding true honest mods like fans, cases, etc. - I'm not including you into this debate, just the modchippers. 

I don't see the reason to replace the hard drive.  has it failed in some way?

[shmokes]

The judgement on this moot - you hacked to run linux but nothing stops you to play pirated games right? 

I physically own all my games I play on mame, and I can play the backups on mame

Are you too daft to see the incompatibility of these two arguments?  You installed MAME to play games for which you own all the PCBs for, "but nothing stops you to play pirated games right?"

Well, I'll tell you what, mate, I have seen MAME in action and guess what:  You can launch pirated games from its interface. 

For that matter you can murder people with knives, yet owning and using knives for non-murdery purposes is legal.  You can pirate movies with a VCR or a DVD Burner, yet owning and using those products for non-piratey purposes is legal.  You can drive drunk, yet drinking is legal and so is driving.  And you can pirate games with a modchip, yet owning and using mod-chips for non-piratey purposes is legal.

The gaping holes in your logic are ---smurfing--- hilarious. 

[shmokes]

Ok I will shut up now and apologise to all concerned if you can link me with some official site of Microsoft, Sony or whoever make the console that endorses modchips. 

Microsoft and Sony don't make the law.  They sell products.  Microsoft doesn't have to like what I do with my Xbox (operative word here being "my"). 

edit:  that should read: Microsoft doesn't have to like what I do with my Xbox as long as I am not breaking the law, which I'm not so long as I'm not pirating or using illegal software (which I do, just like I use MAME to play illegal ROMs, but that's irrelevant to the argument)

[lloydcom]

For that matter you can murder people with knives, yet owning and using knives for non-murdery purposes is legal.  You can pirate movies with a VCR or a DVD Burner, yet owning and using those products for non-piratey purposes is legal.  You can drive drunk, yet drinking is legal and so is driving.  And you can pirate games with a modchip, yet owning and using mod-chips for non-piratey purposes is legal.

That last sentence needs backing up like I said before - if you make such a statement then I would like to see proof of where you got your facts from.  You can use a tall building to throw yourself off to kill yourself or someone else for that matter. But its your brain that tells you not to, because I think you are kind and honest and truthful and respect life as much as your own. And hopefully that will be enough to stop you, unless you are acting in self defense.

Before you go into that Sony don't make the law.  Well the DMCA is still floating around.  Please let us not go around in circles.  Show the proof of your argument.

Yes using a DVD to burn files is ok.  -  You install the drive and away you go.
Murder with knives yep.  - Find a pointy one, and one two three....ouch.
Drinking alcohol is Legal - Yep.  You have to be over 21 years old, or 18 in the UK. Otherwise - no.
Driving a car is legal as long as you have a license and insurance.  Yep
Drinking while intoxicated - uh no.  Thats illegal.
You can pirate games with a mod chip.  Really?  Are you sure?  I don't know....
Owning and Using Modchips is legal ? On your wall right?   

[JoyMonkey]

I think I speak for a lot of people here when I say

[pointdablame]

Apples and oranges.

Butter knife again?  We could use lead pipe - a rope, some poison like draino.  Ever played Cludeo?

You're agreeing with me then?  None of those items are illegal, yet they can facilitate illegal acts.  You don't want to outlaw them though, do ya?

Ok comparing Tiff exploit for hardware modding.  I like it, makes sense.  I see intoducing an image file equals to getting torc screws out of plastic.  Yep see your point.

Wow... reading comprehension maybe?  You denounced DevHook but then said the TIFF exploit was fine.  DevHook isn't a hardware mod there killer.

No got the roms of mame.dk years ago and compared it to my boardset.  If the cops want to come around and do some CSI - I'm game.

Sounds a lot like how I'd say let MS come to my house and PROVE I was pirating games instead of using XBMC for media center purposes.  But I suppose you are right again, and I am wrong.

You don't load viruses in windows ever?  Gee need to get some norton on your machine and have a check up.  You can see where I'm going with this.

I'm not even sure what you mean here, but NO, I don't load viruses on Windows.  With 20+ years of PC experience, I'd hope you don't either.

Discussing the process?  Could like this to stealing a car.  You are not STEALING a car but talking about it.  Makes sense.  Hope there isn't any forums on nuclear weapons with that attitude.  You never know whos reading....

This is retarded, sorry.  Stealing and taking.... that's semantics.  Actually loading a game in XBMC as opposed to just having the functionality there is completely different.

Ok using a modchip is not illegal.  Ok I will shut up now and apologise to all concerned if you can link me with some official site of Microsoft, Sony or whoever make the console that endorses modchips.  I want something to make your case crystal clear.   And I not talking about a clear xbox case mod 

I want some site that is not modchip paid for, that will be legal proof to all concerned that your points and statements made are true and accurate.

I want this.  Lets see if your ego on the subject is as good as your facts that you are representing.  Show me I don't know what I'm typing.

You're not going to find a site where MS or Sony condone this... that's pretty obvious.  Why would they condone it?  It can destroy systems and hurt customer service and customer reactions.  Its beyond the scope of what the system was meant to do.  That doesn't make it illegal.  You void the warranty.. that's about it.

Again, will you find a site that Chevy endorses where they put a 1000hp engine in a Chevy Cobalt without any other modifications?  No.  That doesn't mean its illegal, it only means the manufacturer doesn't like the idea.

I don't see the reason to replace the hard drive.  has it failed in some way?

Media center functionality.  Hold your music and video locally as opposed to across a network.

[JackTucky]

I think I speak for a lot of people here when I say

JM:

Unless you tell lloydbraun to STFU, you don't speak for all of us.

-J

[shmokes]

There have not been any cases in the U.S. testing the DMCA in that respect.  The only case I can point you to is one involving Australia's version of the DMCA which has a nearly identical provision about circumventing copy protection methods.  In that case mod chips were ruled legal on the basis of all their legitimate uses.  Australian case law doesn't set precedent for U.S. courts, but it does show that there is more than one way to interpret DMCA. 

MAME is as illegal as mod chips.  It allows you to play copyrighted materials that you don't own.  It circumvents the need to own a PCB in order to play the game. 

In the end, I don't give a ---steaming pile of meadow muffin---, of course.  Pirating games (which I do) is wrong.  However, converting my DVDs to DIVX files for use on my media server and modifying my Xbox for use as a media streamer are not wrong, neither, for that matter, is copying a game for backup purposes.  If MS implemented a system where you could send them a damaged disc to which they would replace at no charge I'd change my stance on that, until then backups are fair use.  They might be illegal, but it's bad law.   

[lloydcom]

Actually the laws have changed to reflect the sale of knives to certain age groups.  The same as filling up a can of petrol there is some truth in that.

I want proof that someone in standing in law says it is LEGAL TO USE MODCHIPS.

Cant make it clearer than that eh?

But you cannot - you are full of  

So for a laugh I will contact my friend that works for a certain company and ask for an offical statement on the subject.  You can read about it here too:

www.copyright.gov/legislation/dmca.pdf

The Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA) cites that circumvention devices, including, but not limited to mod-chips, are illegal, because the device circumvents the copy-protection features of their host systems.

Mame is illegal? I'll email Aaron today, to ask his response.

The land of Oz has until 2007 to come up with an alternative in relation to trade treaties.  The net is closing down under.

 

[ChadTower]

To go back on topic:

SHMOKES

Now that I've got your attention, I took the HD and DVD out, left them connected, and powered the thing up.  No 3.3v LED.  Pulled the motherboard.  Wouldn't you know it, that one solder point you mention, I missed.  I reviewed the documentation, it's never directly referenced in the LPC PCB steps.  The pic shows a terrible angle where it may or may not be soldered.  The v3 tutorial, which doesn't have the rebuild PCB, shows it clearly.

Awesome call.  I owe you one.   

[Silver]

Good work. Hopefully get mine up and running in the next couple of days...

Amazing what some people do mod-wise. Been reading about people adding 64meg ram (requires lots of SMD soldering all the pins) to double the memory, and even de-soldering the CPU to replace with a twice-as-fast 1.4Gig  PIII - this is no Zif-socket swap either...

[ChadTower]

Geesh.  At that point, just use a more powerful PC with the linux version.

EDIT:  Hit that solder point, put it back together... still no 3.3v LED.  For giggles I wiggled the mod PCB just a tiny bit... the 3.3v LED came on strong.  Wiggle it again, goes off, comes back on... I guess the pins are just a tad too short.  Any wiggling of the PCB makes connection to one or more pins intermittent.  I'll have to figure out a solution for that tomorrow.

Hit the power button, still red LED on external switch.  Then I hit the eject button to power up and it went blue.  This is all with no TV hooked up so I'll do that tomorrow too to see if I get the FlashBIOS screen.  This is what I was hoping for tonight, though.   

[pointdablame]

you'll get a Flashing Red and Green if there are no video cables connected to the Xbox, just in case you weren't aware of that.

[shmokes]

Awesome call. 

Sweet.  Don't mention it.

[shmokes]

you'll get a Flashing Red and Green if there are no video cables connected to the Xbox, just in case you weren't aware of that.

BTW, pointdablaame, you probably wouldn't know this if you haven't specifically used an X3 modchip, but when Chad refers to the LED being red he's talking about this one.  That logo lights up different colors depending on whether the mod is successful and what mode you boot up into.  He talked about FRAGing earlier, but I think right now he's talking about this thing.  You want it to be blue or purple, I can't remember.  If it's red there's a problem with the install, or maybe the bank-selection dip switches there are configured wrong.  I can't remember exactly, it's been about a year since the last (and only) time I installed an X3.

[ChadTower]

you'll get a Flashing Red and Green if there are no video cables connected to the Xbox, just in case you weren't aware of that.

That may explain what I saw... though I think it was orange and green.

[pointdablame]

you'll get a Flashing Red and Green if there are no video cables connected to the Xbox, just in case you weren't aware of that.

BTW, pointdablaame, you probably wouldn't know this if you haven't specifically used an X3 modchip, but when Chad refers to the LED being red he's talking about this one.  That logo lights up different colors depending on whether the mod is successful and what mode you boot up into.  He talked about FRAGing earlier, but I think right now he's talking about this thing.  You want it to be blue or purple, I can't remember.  If it's red there's a problem with the install, or maybe the bank-selection dip switches there are configured wrong.  I can't remember exactly, it's been about a year since the last (and only) time I installed an X3.

Yup... never used those before.  Now that you say it, I know what you're talking about, but I wouldn't have thought of it otherwise.  Good call.

[ChadTower]

To clarify, shmokes was right about what I was saying... though pointdablame was right about the flashing eject button LED (though IIRC it was orange and green). 

The LED on the external switch goes blue if it is enabled, red if disabled, and purple if set to use the backup BIOS (which is recommended to be FlashBIOS but doesn't have to be).

BTW, the stupid plastic switch on the PCB level hardware protection circuit snapped off.  It didn't damage the circuit or the switch housing but the lever is gone.  I have to switch it with a tiny screwdriver now.  Took nearly zero force to break it.

[shmokes]

Oh yeah . . . did anyone ever answer you about that pot on the corner of the chip?  It controls brightness of an LCD screen, if you decide to install one, which you don't because they cost money and are useless.

[pointdablame]

which you don't because they cost money and are useless.

I thought I was the only one who felt that way.  I just don't see the point.

[ChadTower]

No one had answered it, actually, but I happened upon it about an hour ago while reading the flash tutorials.

Next step is to figure out how to resolve the loose connection issue.

[shmokes]

I can kind of see the point if you get a vacuum florescent display, but you can't even read an LCD screen from more than five feet away from the thing.  I have one in my Xbox.  Or had one, anyway (long story).  Useless.

Chad, do you just need downward pressure on a chip?  I had a box that I had done a solderless install in that had a tendency to come unaligned.  I put a small chunk of Styrofoam between the chip and the DVD tray, so that when the Xbox was all put back together the DVD was constantly pushing down on the mod chip.  Maybe something like this would work.  It's been about a year and a half or two years since I put that chunk of Styrofoam in and it's run perfectly ever since.

[ChadTower]

I haven't worked out which exact direction the pressure needs to be in yet.  I was considering a more permanent solution like adding a tiny bit of solder to each of the pins to increase their thickness.  Barring that I was thinking a bit of wood to hold it in place like you describe.  Styrofoam makes me nervous as IIRC it carries a bit of charge and I'm not sure about its conductivity.

[clanggedin]

FYI... Here's a tidbit on the MODCHIP legality issue.

http://australianit.news.com.au/articles/0,7204,20870905%5E15317%5E%5Enbv%5E15306,00.html

[ChadTower]

In Australia.

[clanggedin]

Here's a quote from the Modchip Wiki

"Many companies are now selling modchips without any possibly DMCA-infringing BIOS code loaded onto the EEPROM portion of the chip module, or loading it with a totally legal BIOS containing none of the manufacturer's copyrighted code (for example the Cromwell BIOS developed by the Xbox Linux Project). It is then up to the customer to separately obtain a copy of their desired (possibly illegal) firmware and then to flash it into EEPROM."

So in essence modchips aren't illegal. It's what you install on them that makes them illegal. If you use them in a way that doesn't circumvent the DMCA copy-protecction then you are in your legal right to do so.

OK BACK ON TOPIC.....

[ChadTower]

That's where it becomes grey.  In the past, devices that serve no other purpose than to circumvent security measures have been considered also illegal whether they in and of themselves fit that definition or not.  DirecTV used that law to go after thousands of signal hackers and won a lot of cases where the hackers were buying boards with empty eeproms and loading the hacked software themselves.  Those boards, however, had no possible other use.  The Xbox modchips aren't quite so cut and dry as to which ones can have uses other than loading up an XDK compiled BIOS.

It comes down to this:

1)  Is it free of anything illegal as sold?

2)  Does it have any legitimate use that does not require loading illegal software?

If you can't answer yes to both questions, many localities consider the device itself to be an illegal trade tool and thus illegal itself.

[shmokes]

Shouldn't the answers to those questions be no for localities to consider them illegal? 

[ChadTower]

If you can't answer yes to both questions

If you can't answer yes, the answer is no...   

[ChadTower]

Got a chance to think on this this afternoon while I sat in a 90 minute meeting for which I had no input.

I figure the real problem is that the pins are just slightly short.  I did make sure that they are all just about exactly the same length before soldering in.  So, I can do one of two things rather than just brace the chip (which seems wonky to me).

I can make the pins "longer".  When I insert the chip, the plastic base of the pins meets up with the plastic housing of the female end.  If I were to slightly reduce the amount of plastic on the pin base, maybe a 16th or 32nd of an inch, the pins would be "longer".  Seems like a good solution on its surface but risky given how many fragile solder points are under those pins.

I can bend the pins outward just slightly.  That could provide enough tension within the female end to keep the chip in place.  It would reduce the lifespan of the socket/pin combo but I can't imagine I'm going to be cycling this much at all once I get it working.  I'd have to be very careful not to crack any of those new solder joints when bending the pins, probably doing it with two pairs of needlenose pliers (one to hold it steady, one to bend the upper part of the pin).

[Silver]

Well, after some busy soldering, I've got mine up and running. Not too impressed with the sturdyness of the header with the chip on it - fine stationary, but its going to come loose in transport - but otherwise quite straightforward...

Boots up either the Cromwell bios (linux), flashbios, or the Xbox original no problems.

Not tried anything beyond booting, or changed the HD.

Anyone tell about flashing - do I need to boot to Flashbios, then move the dip switch to cromwell to flash the cromwell bios? Or can I flash either bios anytime?

[ChadTower]

I think it depends on which chip you have.  I don't remember which one you have.

[NickG]

booting to Flashbios and using an bios cd works, certainly.  I think you can update the bios afterward via some installer cd's tools.

[Silver]

I've got a DuoX 2 chip - it has 2 banks (cromwell and flashbios currently).

Am wondering that when I flash, do I have to move the dip switch while the system is on?

[shmokes]

I've never used a DuoX chip, but my experience is that you have access to all of the different banks when your flashing.  I would think that you would want to boot into Flashbios and then open up a web browser and type in the IP address of the Xbox.  At that point I think you'll have access to both of the banks and can flash over Cromwell with a hacked bios.  Then, I guess you would adjust the dip switches to tell it to boot to the bank holding the hacked bios automatically.

I'm not really sure on this because I've always worked with chips that had a built-in OS so I haven't had to deal much with dip switches, etc., and the OS on the chips have a built-in web server so Flashbios isn't needed for the most part.

Maybe you should PM SNAAKE.  He's installed something like a hundred and fifty kajillion DuoX chips.

[ChadTower]

The X3 works with dips too.

[shmokes]

Yeah, but once it's all going the switches are completely superfluous.  I don't remember if I pulled that thing off or if I just stuffed it somewhere inside the box.  You don't need it at all.  Once you're able to boot into the chip's OS you can control what bank it boots to in software (as well as a ton of other stuff).

I have only a vague memory of dealing with the X3 dips.  I seem to remember I just had to have them in a default position which gave me Flashbios and then I was able to flash the banks from my web browser and that was the last time I ever had to do anything with them.  They're nice to have for recovery purposes if the OS becomes corrupt or something, but otherwise you don't need to fool with them.

[ChadTower]

Good to know.  I suppose the switchboard would be more valuable if a person were going onto Xbox Live a lot.  It's a clear indicator of which BIOS you're booted with.

[ChadTower]

Well that was a failure.  Tried the bend the pins a bit method... now no LEDs, eventually got intermittent 5v but no 3.3v.  Probably broke a solder joint or two underneath.  Crap.     Now to pull the thing out and retouch them all again.

[markrvp]

I've got a DuoX 2 chip - it has 2 banks (cromwell and flashbios currently).

Am wondering that when I flash, do I have to move the dip switch while the system is on?

Yes, boot it on the Flash Bios side and then flip the switch to the other bank before flashing the new Bios.  That way if you mess it up, you still have the Flash Bios side working to boot it up again.

[Samstag]

Chad, you got an Xecuter, right?

My experience with older (2.3) Xecuter chips was they had very poor quality control on the cables.  Check that the wires aren't loose in the connectors or even pulling out.  I ended up soldering most of the wires directly to the boards before I eventually tossed all 3 chips.

[ChadTower]

I definitely cracked a solder joint on a pin.  When I pressed on it it went down.  I'm fixing it now.

[Silver]

Yes, boot it on the Flash Bios side and then flip the switch to the other bank before flashing the new Bios.  That way if you mess it up, you still have the Flash Bios side working to boot it up again.

Nice one thanks - I take that the DIP restricts access? ie so once I've booted in flash bios and flip the switch, then I can only write to the other (cromwell) bios?

[Silver]

I definitely cracked a solder joint on a pin.  When I pressed on it it went down.  I'm fixing it now.

I was right - looks like my box did not survive the journey back home. Probably (hopefully) just the chip coming loose off the pinheader but we shall see! Otherwise could be a re-soldering job for me too - D0 looked iffy, but didn't want to tug-test that one with just 30AWG wire...

[ChadTower]

Now I get 5v lit again, but no 3.3v lit, and the switch PCB is out now.  This is dumb.

I need an LPC pinout so I can start using the DMM instead of those LEDs.

EDIT:  here

EDIT2:  If that stupid chart is right, I get 3.28v on the 5v pin and almost nothing on the 3.3v pins.

[ChadTower]

That effing pinout can't be right.  Maybe it's not for 1.6.

[ChadTower]

I think it is... but for 1.6 5v is coming in externally.  Pin 9 should pull 3.3v from pin 15 which pulls it from C702 nearby.  I'm getting buzz from 9 to 15 but not from 15 to C702.  A bit of solder touchup and now I get buzz from 15 to C702 and from C702 thru to 9.  So if I put this thing back in I should have 3.3v back.

I looked at the header pins for the switch connector and sure enough one of those hair thin pins was bent.  So that explains the suddenly dead switch.

 

[ChadTower]

Put the chip back in, now I have LEDs for 5v and 3.3v.  I get red switch LED if I power up quick press from power button.  I get blue switch LED if I power up quick press from eject button.  I get purple switch LED if I power up pressing both.

Something tells me the power/eject scenarios are reversed.  I have to look into that.

What I ended up having to do to solve the connectivity issue is find about 5 different partially labeled LPC rebuild images from either side of the board.  I pieced them together so I could buzz out the entire set of connections on both sides, found the ones that didn't buzz, and fixed them.  There's a lot of info out there but few places where there is enough in one place.

EDIT:  I do sorta have the power/eject button wrong.  Apparently if you push the power button "long press" it will automatically boot to the factory bios and the red LED means "chip disabled".  Its definition of "long press" is about .3 seconds, though.  You have to really tap the power button to get the chip enabled with it. 

[shmokes]

Yeah . . . that's one thing I find irritating about the Xecuter chip that I'm using now, compared with the SmartXX chip I was using up until a year ago (was forced to switch . . . didn't want to).  The SmartXX chip booted to the hacked bios with the eject button (which is a much nicer button for power than the one meant for power due to it being so much more prominent).  The long press on the Xecuter chip, like you said, is ridiculous.  Pressing it without triggering the factory bios is almost a videogame in itself.

Anyway, sounds like a saga.  I'm glad I didn't run into all that stuff cos I don't know much about circuit boards and multimeteres and soldering and pinouts.  I'd like to say that the hard part is done, but for you the hard part may be setting up XBMC.  It can sometimes be a pain setting up the shares and getting XBMC to see them, but the new 2.0 version of XBMC actually seems to make it much more user friendly.

[Silver]

Now I get 5v lit again, but no 3.3v lit, and the switch PCB is out now.  This is dumb.

I need an LPC pinout so I can start using the DMM instead of those LEDs.

EDIT:  here

EDIT2:  If that stupid chart is right, I get 3.28v on the 5v pin and almost nothing on the 3.3v pins.

Thats the exact pic I used, but I'm on a 1.3 so did not have to do the rebuild.

I know what you mean about the info being spread - the DuoX2 comes with 1 pic, and the install guide on the forums in Xbox Scene is actually wrong - or at least misses out several pics, making it very confusing at first...

[ChadTower]

Just downloaded the "Xbins Auto Tool" from the official X3 forum.  It set off my AV alarms like the house was coming down.  How crappy is that?  FYI. 

[crashwg]

Just downloaded the "Xbins Auto Tool" from the official X3 forum.  It set off my AV alarms like the house was coming down.  How crappy is that?  FYI. 

If you're even the slightest bit familiar with IRC and FTP it's easy to get stuff from XBINS without the "auto tool"

All you have to do is go to #xbins on efnet type "/msg xbins !list" (which it tells you in the chat room btw) and use the screen name and password it provides you (most likely going to be Login"chadtower" Password "emulation" )to log into the FTP server "distribution.xbins.org"

Simple really...

[ChadTower]

Yeah, I was trying to do it without downloading mIRC.  Turned out that was the best way to do it.  Got in via GAIM too.

[ChadTower]

SONOFABITCH.   

I just spent the last 90 minutes trying to flash this thing.  Won't work no matter what I do.  Finally I go check the forums and search on my error messages.

Turns out many of the PCBs are labeled incorrectly and have the flash protect setting reversed in the silkscreen.   

EDIT:   Yep.  File that away as a datapoint.  Some Xecutor 3 PCBs have the one setting that is silkscreened on the PCB, the really fundamentally important one, reversed.  For future reference:  Green LED = protected.  Red LED = flashable.  Not what it says on the PCB.

[lloydcom]

SONOFABITCH.   

I just spent the last 90 minutes trying to flash this thing.  Won't work no matter what I do.  Finally I go check the forums and search on my error messages.

Turns out many of the PCBs are labeled incorrectly and have the flash protect setting reversed in the silkscreen.   

EDIT:   Yep.  File that away as a datapoint.  Some Xecutor 3 PCBs have the one setting that is silkscreened on the PCB, the really fundamentally important one, reversed.  For future reference:  Green LED = protected.  Red LED = flashable.  Not what it says on the PCB.

I'm a bit confused.

You posted that if you install a modchip without flashing the bios then its ok to do so, but now you are flashing the bios.  So its not ok is it?

* Saint if you are reading this, please delete this thread*

[crashwg]

I'm a bit confused.

You posted that if you install a modchip without flashing the bios then its ok to do so, but now you are flashing the bios.  So its not ok is it?

* Saint if you are reading this, please delete this thread*

I didn't read anywhere that he was using an illegal bios.  Did you?   

I do agree with you though that this thread should be at least closed if not sent to PH.

I realize this is the "console" part of the boards but xbox-scene is really the place this type of discussion should be happening.

And in regards to the text directed at Saint...  There is a "Report to moderator" link at the bottom of every post on these boards.  If you really think a thread should be shut down, click that and let the appropriate persons take care of it!

[ChadTower]

I'm a bit confused.

You posted that if you install a modchip without flashing the bios then its ok to do so, but now you are flashing the bios.  So its not ok is it?

It all depends on what I flashed it with. 

You're awfully adamant for someone who can't be bothered to use the proper channels for such a complaint.

[JackTucky]

I'm a bit confused.

WhY?  It's ok in everyone's mind except yours.  Why don't you go to some forum where people listen to you? 

How did the responses from micrsoft go?  I bet they jumped right on your email when they found out someone might be hacking an xbox.  Amazing how Chad isn't in jail yet with your diligence.

-J

[pointdablame]

I'm a bit confused.

You posted that if you install a modchip without flashing the bios then its ok to do so, but now you are flashing the bios.  So its not ok is it?

* Saint if you are reading this, please delete this thread*

There you go making assumptions again.  Give it a rest, you've already proven to all that have read this thread that you are a bit ignorant and unable to comprehend simple facts.

The process of flashing a modchip is not illegal either.  You have no idea what Chad flashed to his chip and Saint has no reason to close the thread.

Go troll elsewhere.

[pointdablame]

Yeah . . . that's one thing I find irritating about the Xecuter chip that I'm using now, compared with the SmartXX chip I was using up until a year ago (was forced to switch . . . didn't want to).  The SmartXX chip booted to the hacked bios with the eject button (which is a much nicer button for power than the one meant for power due to it being so much more prominent).  The long press on the Xecuter chip, like you said, is ridiculous.  Pressing it without triggering the factory bios is almost a videogame in itself.

That's one of the nice points to the Aladdin chip I have in one of my Xboxes.  It's the opposite of the Xecuter in that the short push will load the normal bios and a long press will load the flashed bios.  It's much easier to hold the button for a split second than it is to tap it as quick as you possibly can.

[lloydcom]

I'm a bit confused.

You posted that if you install a modchip without flashing the bios then its ok to do so, but now you are flashing the bios.  So its not ok is it?

* Saint if you are reading this, please delete this thread*

There you go making assumptions again.  Give it a rest, you've already proven to all that have read this thread that you are a bit ignorant and unable to comprehend simple facts.

The process of flashing a modchip is not illegal either.  You have no idea what Chad flashed to his chip and Saint has no reason to close the thread.

Go troll elsewhere.

I'm sorry. Silly me and I thought you had to install the mod first before you could flash the bios.  Thanks for clearing that up.  I stand corrected.

[NinjaEpisode]

I'm sorry. Silly me and I thought you had to install the mod first before you could flash the bios.  Thanks for clearing that up.  I stand corrected.

There you go thinking again. 

There are chips available with a usb interface, that basically become thumb drives that you can then plug into a PC and flash without ever having to open up your console.  You would be well advised to at least make an attempt to research this topic before you condemn everyone for performing a deed that you deem "illegal."

[Silver]

Right well I've manged to flash my bios and that seems to work.

My xbox appears unable to read anything (I've been trying installer discs so far) I burn to dvd+r's, burnt at any speed, by any of 3 different burners. Reads cdrw fine though. It has a samsung drive inside. Is this just luck of the draw?

[JoyMonkey]

AFAIK Xbox drives have a hard time reading DVR+R's. I've only ever used CD-RWs and DVD-R's.

[Silver]

Aha - especially the samsung... "as far as I know samsung drive will not read +R or +RW unless your burner is setup the correct way with bitsetting and booktype adjusted. "

Luckily:

"Here are directions on how to Bitset or Change the BookType on Plextor, NEC, BenQ, LG, LITE-ON, Nu Tech/QSI and Ricoh Burners....."

we shall see...

EDIT: Yep, works a treat.

[ChadTower]

It's much easier to flash via HTTP if your chip has that built in.  I had no issues with that, just with the flash protection on my chip. 

[Silver]

It's much easier to flash via HTTP if your chip has that built in.  I had no issues with that, just with the flash protection on my chip. 

Yeh, I've just not hooked up the network yet. It's going to have to go through a wireless adapter which I have not got round to configuring. Once done, hopefully I'll start playing with the config files of xmbc etc... via ftp.

Anyway, just installed xbmc to take a look - very nice...

On a side note - what sort of temperature should the xbox cpu be running at? Mine appears to fly up to 60 degrees C (140F) just idling at the dashboard. Is that normal?

[ChadTower]

If it is normal for an Xbox it's high for this type of device.  My Tivos generally run in the low 40s.  If they approach 50 they start to show performance issues.

If you have a larger HD, especially a 7200RPM drive, that will increase the heat some.

[clanggedin]

Some chips can can install a Bios from a flash drive if you have the adapter that converts a controller port to USB.

I believe the Xenium has that capability, but I'm not sure which others do too.

[lloydcom]

Some chips can can install a Bios from a flash drive if you have the adapter that converts a controller port to USB.

I believe the Xenium has that capability, but I'm not sure which others do too.

So how does the mod unit get its power from, if it was used with a flash drive?

I'm curious now. 

You make a usb cable from one of the xbox's controller port (I figured that part out), then you hook up the mod chip to the usb cable and then the xbox is modded, right? 

That's great, so now you never have to open the xbox and hardwire the modchip - like in the earlier examples already posted in this thread- so one could say its like a softmod?  So the mod chip is portable too?

I don't see anything wrong with that.  Heck you can unplug it and the xbox would be as normal as before.  That's cool.  My guess you could store XBMC in a spare partition or on DVD, when you have this dongle-type modchip attached, right?

That sounds better than opening up a xbox and changing its architecture

[shmokes]

My god, Lloyd, you're obnoxious. 

I said it once, but here it goes again.  This thread is named "Xbox mod"  That's the title of the thread.  That means it's what shows up in the list of threads in the console section.  It's six pages long.  Does it occur to you that maybe . . . just maybe . . . Saint and all the mods are perfectly aware of the existence of a thread that might have something to do with *gasp* modding xboxes?  Give it a ---smurfing--- rest. 

Guess what?  There's a thread in EE right this very second that is all about Chad getting a ticket for speeding.  What?  A thread about illegal activity?  Call in the mods!!!

Even if modding an Xbox turns out to be technically illegal you have to be a ---smurfing--- ignoramus to not be able to wrap your head around the difference between modding an Xbox compared with modding a Gamecube or PS2.  And, frankly, there are perfectly legitimate reasons to mod those consoles too, such as backups and defeating region lockouts.

[ChadTower]

You make a usb cable from one of the xbox's controller port (I figured that part out), then you hook up the mod chip to the usb cable and then the xbox is modded, right?

No.  That is not correct.


BTW, that speeding ticket was for going 25mph.  I'm such a badass.   

[JackTucky]

Mods please leave this open but ban lloydboring.

-J

[lloydcom]

My god, Lloyd, you're obnoxious. 

I said it once, but here it goes again.  This thread is named "Xbox mod"  That's the title of the thread.  That means it's what shows up in the list of threads in the console section.  It's six pages long.  Does it occur to you that maybe . . . just maybe . . . Saint and all the mods are perfectly aware of the existence of a thread that might have something to do with *gasp* modding xboxes?  Give it a ---smurfing--- rest. 

Guess what?  There's a thread in EE right this very second that is all about Chad getting a ticket for speeding.  What?  A thread about illegal activity?  Call in the mods!!!

Even if modding an Xbox turns out to be technically illegal you have to be a ---smurfing--- ignoramus to not be able to wrap your head around the difference between modding an Xbox compared with modding a Gamecube or PS2.  And, frankly, there are perfectly legitimate reasons to mod those consoles too, such as backups and defeating region lockouts.

The whole thread is called Xbox Mod.  To my mind xbox mod means to modify the xbox than it was originally intended.  We are good with that right?

What I call a xbox mod is different to what you guys are suggesting.  My xbox mods are new cases, changing the controller ports to utilise USB connections.  Adding lights like case mods, putting in a fan that sounds a lot quieter than the current vacum cleaner sounding types.

That is modding a xbox.

The other "mod" is chipping the xbox to play homebrew and pirated games.  Its well documented was on TechTV, have lots of sites dedicated to adding larger drives, XBMC, and the emulators etc.

But you have to understand that this site forbids such topics, so like we all do when we visit the site, we behave ourselves and follow the rules.  If you want to mod a xbox go to those sites that cater for it.  I shouldn't have to explain it to you guys time and time again.

It just ticks me off when you guys promote activity which breaks the law.  You always say before a sentence: "it probably is" or "most likely does" but never a link or a factual statement.  Its always from your point of view which cannot be justfied "illegal".  It sounds so childish.

When you guys argue without facts - you just look dumb. 

Geez

[ChadTower]

Well, from a technical user's standpoint - and this is a technical user's forum - you've just described a bunch of mostly useless m0dz.  You're ricing out your Xbox with lights and a pretty case and various other things that don't make it any more useful than it was when you took it out of the box.  The USB mod is useful in some ways but not all that many.

Given the nature of this forum, which is to build things, open things up and change them functionally, repair things from a broken state, or to restore things from a diminished state, an Xbox mod thread can be expected to include modchips and other such functional changes (the USB port changes would apply here).

The social onus is on you to digest the culture of this forum and integrate.  It is not the other way around.

[clanggedin]

YeahLLOYD.... Technically you can install a mod chip inside an Xbox without having to solder it to the mainboard. Then you can remove it whenever you want without any evidence of the Xbox ever having a modchip inside. It's called a SOLDERLESS ADAPTER.

The only thing you you break by opening up your Xbox case is the warranty. With my mod chip and without having to install any hacked bios I can FTP data to and from my Xbox. I can move MP3s my save files. I can back up my EEPROM and hard drive data I can even install a new hard drive if I run our of space on the stock 4GB drive the microsoft provides. All of that can be done without removing or changing the existing XBOX bios at all. It's when you install another bios that you may be crossing the line in certain countries.

My PS2 plays games off an external harddrive and all I needed was a CD that I put in that lets me do this. The CD only lets me copy and play games stored on the harddrive and does nothing else. Even though I am not altering the arcitecture of the PS2 I can play "backups". To me that CD is more illegal than any modchip is because its sole purpose is to make copies of games, but by your logic ,(unless I misunderstood), it's OK to use because I didn't have to crack open the case and install it.

[shmokes]

When you guys argue without facts - you just look dumb. 

Geez

STFU.  I linked you to an Australian court case in which Sony tried to shut down mod chips (the court felt the same way as us, btw), and pointed out that no games companies have attempted to use the provision of DMCA that you incessantly refer to.  Your dismal reading comprehension skills do not amount to us refusing to back up our opinions with fact.  And your dismal attempts to talk in legal language do not make you a lawyer ("I want proof that someone in standing in law says it is LEGAL TO USE MODCHIPS.").

[ChadTower]

Man those solderless adapters look sketchy.  Like if you picked up the Xbox and Etch a Sketched it the modchip would fly off and short out a bunch of random stuff.

[lloydcom]

When you guys argue without facts - you just look dumb. 

Geez

STFU.  I linked you to an Australian court case in which Sony tried to shut down mod chips (the court felt the same way as us, btw), and pointed out that no games companies have attempted to use the provision of DMCA that you incessantly refer to.  Your dismal reading comprehension skills do not amount to us refusing to back up our opinions with fact.  And your dismal attempts to talk in legal language do not make you a lawyer ("I want proof that someone in standing in law says it is LEGAL TO USE MODCHIPS.").

[

Its legal in Austrailia.  Get caught by cops over there and you are free from procecution, well until 2007 when they have to change that law to be in line with new trade agreements.  My apologies to the  Austrailian posters on this site.   Its not legal here in the UK or in the US where this site is hosted.

Coming back to what Shmokes was saying, well...what were you saying?  You need to take some advice from your quotation from your post.  Yes for  sake shmokes, get a grip.

Well, from a technical user's standpoint - and this is a technical user's forum - you've just described a bunch of mostly useless m0dz.  You're ricing out your Xbox with lights and a pretty case and various other things that don't make it any more useful than it was when you took it out of the box.  The USB mod is useful in some ways but not all that many.

Given the nature of this forum, which is to build things, open things up and change them functionally, repair things from a broken state, or to restore things from a diminished state, an Xbox mod thread can be expected to include modchips and other such functional changes (the USB port changes would apply here).

The social onus is on you to digest the culture of this forum and integrate.  It is not the other way around.

To be totally honest I wish I could mod the xbox I have, but I cannot.  Yes I would love to have a cheap media centre and play music and movies.  In another earlier post - I noted that there was a good deal going for xbox and 4 games for £50.  £50 for a media centre PC would be a dream come true.  And I have seen XBMC and it is really wonderful.  It's all very tempting, and if I am in my own home - who's right is it to tell me what to do?

Well I have a little voice in my head that says I cannot.  Its the little voice of reason.  Even if I can do a thing, it has to be the right, honest and just thing.  That is why I try to walk the straight line.  I'm not a paragon of virtue, who isn't? 

I changed the leads to my xbox so I can charge my USB devices.  Every time I hook my Ipod shuffle to the PC it wipes the tracks off.  Quite annoying.  But with the USB from the xbox I don't have that problem.  I play a lot of Soul Calibre on my cab, so the USB on port 4 does a lot of work too.

Works great with the X Arcade, but its a cable mod and a worthy inclusion in this thread as it is a Xbox Mod.  No great harm done.

From a technical standpoint - this site and Saint's Book is about modifying arcade controls and building cabinets, not chipping xboxes.   This is not my site.  And when I visit other peoples site, I try to observe the rules.

Someone mentioned you got a ticket for speeding.  Going 25mph.  Not so fast that you could kill someone, but fast enough if you were going 25mph in a 10mph school zone.  What is it $100 each mile an hour you go over?  Or perhaps you were going too slow, becoming a hazard.  Whatever - you got caught and you have to pay a fine, pay higher insurance or go to drivers school.

But you got caught doing something you are not allowed to do by law.  I always remember the driving handbook slogan "Driving is a privilege not a right".  I remember it to this day.  It reminds me of this site.  Its always a privilege to post here, not a right.  If you get caught with your xbox mod, who knows which book they thow at you.

Technically speaking I love a great joypad hack, or building a star wars yoke or finding ways to hook up light guns to PCs and xboxes.  So finally on a technical standpoint this post/argument is over, because a xbox chipping mod is Illegal by the DMCA. No Ifs buts or maybes.

At least I tried to give a good argument against this thread, even though it means alot to you guys.  I bet the past 5 years has been like candyland.  Free Mp3s, Torrents, Roms, etc.  Never worrying about those people who invest in games or hardware that try to make a living. No.

Who cares right?

Its Finito Bandito. For me on this subject.  Goodnight.   

[NinjaEpisode]

Perhaps if we approach this in a different direction, i.e. Reverse Engineering:

Reverse engineering as a fair use is firmly established. See Bowers v. Baystate Tech., Inc., 320 F.3d 1317, 1325 (Fed. Cir. 2003) (reverse engineering is a fair use under 17 U.S.C. § 107); Sony Computer Entm't, Inc. v. Connectix Corp., 203 F.3d 956, 602 (9th Cir. 2000) (reverse engineering was fair use for the purpose of gaining access to the unprotected elements of software).

It could be argued, that those of us who chose to mod our xboxs, or other consoles are doing so for the purpose of reverse engineering.  I doubt anyone here disputes the fact that the same mods can lead to illegal activities, however, as shown above, the actual act of modding or 'reverse engineering' is NOT illegal.

[MameMaster!]

HOLY COW THIS THREAD IS EXHAUSTING.

....and on top of it all there's no bacon.

I was promised Bacon.



 

[boykster]

HOLY COW THIS THREAD IS EXHAUSTING.

....and on top of it all there's no bacon.

I was promised Bacon.



 

[clanggedin]

Man those solderless adapters look sketchy.  Like if you picked up the Xbox and Etch a Sketched it the modchip would fly off and short out a bunch of random stuff.

If the adapter is installed correctly then it is extremely difficult to get it tocome off. My Xbox has been dropped twice. Been in the car numerous times and my 8 year old son has it in his bedroom on the floor where it is constantly getting smacked and I have never had to reseat the adapter once. Whereas my brother has had to reseat his adapter twice since he bought his.

[Silver]

Yes, but soldering direct (especially to d0) makes you look like real man.....  (well, almost....)

Definately running on the warm side. Running xbmc with auto-temp control of the fan makes it sound like a tornado... (I hooked up a 80mm fan with a sensor wire to the xbox mb header, but no 12V fan speed mod.) Clearly should have got a quieter fan, although now I've read that replacing the white gunk thermal compound under the cpu/gpu and reduce temps a lot.

All the software reports my xbox as a 1.1 not a 1.3, despite the physical check guides saying its a 1.3. Not sure there is much difference. The internal cooling looks pretty basic though.

[JackTucky]

I was going to offer bacon, but Lloyddork's rants make me think I shouldn't mod the bacon by cooking it.  After all, Bill gates doesn't want me cooking the bacon.

-J

[SirPoonga]

ok, I am locking this for now.  You guys did have a rational discussion but then it did turn for the worse.  We are discussing the issue in  he moderators forums.  Thanks.

[SirPeale]

Yeah...what SirP said.