A Tale of Two Graphics Cards

[gamecreature]

I've been tearing my hair out over this problem and I'm hoping someone here might have some insight.

The computer I'm using to run Mame has an onboard Intel Graphics chip that does a great job of displaying the games. All but the most sophisticated games play at full speed. The only problem is that some of the vertical games get distorted on the horizontal display. The vertical is squeezed down and the horizontal is stretched out. It doesn't happen on all of the games - Dig Dug is affected while Astro Blaster appears to be normal. At any rate, I've tried tweaking Mame's settings, but haven't seemed to find anything that makes a difference.

So I tried a different graphics card, an ATI Rage 128. The ATI card had no problem displaying the vertical games at their proper aspect ratio, but the frame rate was terrible. Mame froze repeatedly as it would squeeze out a few frames every few seconds.

So what do I do? All I want is to get my vertical games back the way they're supposed to be. Is there a way to get the Intel graphics to do the job? Is this motherboard just too anal to accept an advanced graphics card? Any help would be appreciated.

[jimmy_bored]

Your best bet would be to post your question here: http://www.clrmame.com/cgi-bin/wwwthreads/wwwthreads.pl?action=list&Board=mamegeneral

They are mame pros.

[ahofle]

You should start by listing the version of MAME you are using, as well as the video settings you are currently using.  Are you absolutely sure you used the same settings with the new card as the old card?  For example, the game that "stuttered" with the new card...how did it run under the old card, and are you sure the MAME settings were the EXACT same for both?  The video card shouldn't have much effect at all on the speed of MAME, so something doesn't sound right here.

[gamecreature]

I'm using Mame 106. The cards are different, so the video settings are not exactly the same. But the Mame settings that worked on one card do not work on the other. One other possibility is that the motherboard is not capable of supporting the card. That's why I'm asking. Let me know what to check and I'll give you the results.

[_Iz-]

The rage 128 card is quite ancient...   Try something newer...

[ahofle]

Sorry, by 'video settings' I meant the MAME video settings.  It sounds like they are the same for both cards though, so I'm at a loss as to why they behave so differently.  Two MAME video settings that you may want to play around with are 'enforce aspect ratio' and 'clean stretch' (sorry I can't remember what the corresponding mame.ini properties are named). 

[gamecreature]

The rage 128 card is quite ancient...   Try something newer...

I tried it with a geForce 5200. Same results.

[gamecreature]

Okay, I think I've got it fixed. The Intel graphics card doesn't support 32-bit graphics and Mame doesn't like 24-bit graphics. By setting the Intel to 16-bit, everything showed up like it should. Now I just need to try and remember the proper settings to get rid of the blurry display (or download an earlier version of Mame) and I'm all set!

[Hoopz]

Now I just need to try and remember the proper settings to get rid of the blurry display

Don't drink as much.  Or drink more!   

[ahofle]

Okay, I think I've got it fixed. The Intel graphics card doesn't support 32-bit graphics and Mame doesn't like 24-bit graphics. By setting the Intel to 16-bit, everything showed up like it should. Now I just need to try and remember the proper settings to get rid of the blurry display (or download an earlier version of Mame) and I'm all set!

Turn off hardware stretch.

[krick]

So I tried a different graphics card, an ATI Rage 128. The ATI card had no problem displaying the vertical games at their proper aspect ratio, but the frame rate was terrible. Mame froze repeatedly as it would squeeze out a few frames every few seconds.

So what do I do? All I want is to get my vertical games back the way they're supposed to be. Is there a way to get the Intel graphics to do the job? Is this motherboard just too anal to accept an advanced graphics card? Any help would be appreciated.

An ATI Rage 128 is far from an advanced graphics card.  The onboard is probably more advanced.


If your computer has a AGP slot, I found a fairly decent *cheap* video card on eWiz.com:

If you use this link, you get the "Froogle" discount and the card is $35.

http://www.ewiz.com/detail.php?p=XFX-6200_1&c=fr

XFX nVidia GeForce 6200 128MB DVI/TV-out AGP
Part Number: PV-T44A-RAMG
Chipset: GeForce 6200
Video Memory: 128MB DDR
Memory Interface: 64-bit
Bus: AGP 8X
Connectors: VGA; DVI; TV-out
Thermal: Fanless

Pros:
It has 128MB of actual memory (none of that TurboCache crap).
It's a GeForce 6 series so it's fully DX9 compliant unlike most budget cards.
It's fanless. No noise, and no crappy fan to fail in a year.
Being DX9 compliant, it will work with Vista if it ever comes out.

Cons:
The 6200 is one of the weakest of the Geforce 6 series.
the 64-bit memory interface hurts the performance in really modern games.

Overall though, it's a pretty decent card, and more than capable of handling anything MAME throws at it. I bought three of them for the computers in my house because I *HATE* the piercing noise from crappy video card fans.

[gamecreature]

An ATI Rage 128 is far from an advanced graphics card.  The onboard is probably more advanced.

I tried it with a new FX5200 with the same results. The video would play briefly and then freeze while I got a high-pitched whine from the speakers. The whine would stop, the video would resume until it was time for another whine. Perhaps the SB Audigy card is the culprit...

[krick]

An ATI Rage 128 is far from an advanced graphics card.  The onboard is probably more advanced.

I tried it with a new FX5200 with the same results. The video would play briefly and then freeze while I got a high-pitched whine from the speakers. The whine would stop, the video would resume until it was time for another whine. Perhaps the SB Audigy card is the culprit...

That's almost certainly the problem.  What motherboard do you have?  How many PCI slots?

The soundblaster cards do *NOT* like to share IRQs with anything.  In modern motherboards with all the onboard devices fighting for IRQs, it's very hard to avoid sharing an IRQ.

If your motherboard is a full sized ATX, usually slot #2 or #3 are the best location for a sound blaster.  PCI slot #1 (the one closest to the CPU) almost always (99% of the time) shares with the AGP slot.  Does your motherboard report the IRQ assignments while booting?  If so, we can use that to resolve the conflict.

Make sure that you go into the BIOS and disable any features on your board that you aren't using like onboard sound and RAID.

[gamecreature]

That's almost certainly the problem.  What motherboard do you have?  How many PCI slots?

The soundblaster cards do *NOT* like to share IRQs with anything.  In modern motherboards with all the onboard devices fighting for IRQs, it's very hard to avoid sharing an IRQ.

If your motherboard is a full sized ATX, usually slot #2 or #3 are the best location for a sound blaster.  PCI slot #1 (the one closest to the CPU) almost always (99% of the time) shares with the AGP slot.  Does your motherboard report the IRQ assignments while booting?  If so, we can use that to resolve the conflict.

Make sure that you go into the BIOS and disable any features on your board that you aren't using like onboard sound and RAID.

The best that I can tell you right now is that it's a Dell office computer with only four PCI slots and no AGP. Can't say if it's reporting anything during boot. The device manager wasn't reporting anything. There's no onboard sound that I can tell (no built in sound jacks) but I'll see if I can find anything else I feel brave enough to disable. I did have the sound card in the first slot. I'll move it and see what happens.

[gamecreature]

The SB card wants to use IRQ 3 and the Video card wants to use IRQ 11. The Intel chip, oddly enough, doesn't use any IRQ. If I could find an newer card like that, I think I'd be set.

[loadman]

The SB card wants to use IRQ 3 and the Video card wants to use IRQ 11. The Intel chip, oddly enough, doesn't use any IRQ. If I could find an newer card like that, I think I'd be set.

I have two SB differnt souncards sitting here doing nothing, A sound blaster LIVE! and a SB16. 

Do you want me to send you one ?

[krick]

The SB card wants to use IRQ 3 and the Video card wants to use IRQ 11. The Intel chip, oddly enough, doesn't use any IRQ. If I could find an newer card like that, I think I'd be set.

Did you try juggling video and sound card around into different slots?  The IRQ is tied to the slot, not the device.

Did you make sure that the onboard video is disabled (if possible).

Does the board have any other onboard beasties that you're not using?  Modem, RAID, etc?  If so, make sure they're disabled in the BIOS if possible.

Are you using a PS/2 mouse? Using a USB mouse will free up another IRQ that the PCI slots can use.

[gamecreature]

The SB card wants to use IRQ 3 and the Video card wants to use IRQ 11. The Intel chip, oddly enough, doesn't use any IRQ. If I could find an newer card like that, I think I'd be set.

Did you try juggling video and sound card around into different slots?  The IRQ is tied to the slot, not the device.

Did you make sure that the onboard video is disabled (if possible).

Loadman - I've got an SB Live sitting around here myself, but it's not a PCI card.

Does the board have any other onboard beasties that you're not using?  Modem, RAID, etc?  If so, make sure they're disabled in the BIOS if possible.

Are you using a PS/2 mouse? Using a USB mouse will free up another IRQ that the PCI slots can use.

Yep, I moved the sound card from slot 1 to slot 3. I put video in slot 1. I disabled the Intel chip in the device manager. I'm not seeing any other onboard devices.

[krick]

The SB card wants to use IRQ 3 and the Video card wants to use IRQ 11. The Intel chip, oddly enough, doesn't use any IRQ. If I could find an newer card like that, I think I'd be set.

Did you try juggling video and sound card around into different slots?  The IRQ is tied to the slot, not the device.

Did you make sure that the onboard video is disabled (if possible).

Loadman - I've got an SB Live sitting around here myself, but it's not a PCI card.

Does the board have any other onboard beasties that you're not using?  Modem, RAID, etc?  If so, make sure they're disabled in the BIOS if possible.

Are you using a PS/2 mouse? Using a USB mouse will free up another IRQ that the PCI slots can use.

Yep, I moved the sound card from slot 1 to slot 3. I put video in slot 1. I disabled the Intel chip in the device manager. I'm not seeing any other onboard devices.

Hmmm... what is the exact model number of your computer?  There's usually a number on the front of the case, then there's another number on the back. There's also sometimes a "service tag" that's the most useful of all.  With that, I can look up the exact hardware specs on the Dell site.

[gamecreature]

Dell Dimension 2100. Service Tag 710NX01.

[krick]

According to this page...

http://support.dell.com/support/edocs/systems/dim2100/specs.htm#default_dell_installed_expansion_card_placement

...the sound card should be in slot 2.

The video card should probably be in slot 1.

Are you using any other PCI devices?  NIC, modem?

I'd try pulling all the cards out, putting the sound card in slot 2 and then try the video card in each of the other open slots in turn to see if the video problems go away.


Also, if you're feeling adventurous, you can make a DOS boot disk...

http://www.bootdisk.com/  (the "driver free disk for BIOS flashing" is probably the best)

...slap a copy of PCI (not PCI32) and the latest PCIDEVS.TXT on it...

http://members.datafast.net.au/dft0802/downloads.htm

... and try booting your computer with the disk and running PCI.exe to see where the IRQ conflicts are.  If you see some sharing, you can try juggling cards to resolve it.

[elvis]

Intel cards are known for their issues with rotation.  There's a mention in the MAME FAQ, which should always be your first port of call for MAME related issues (this is a friendly way of saying "RTFM"):
http://www.mame.net/mamefaq.html#w05

And there's certainly a lot of talk about it on the MAME.net forums and developer blogs.

Long story short: don't use intel cards when playing MAME.

For the best blur-free gaming, get a Direct3D capable card (doesn't have to be fast - any D3D capable card with 16MB of video memory will do).  Load up your game and tell it to remove all filtering.  You will have a 100% "point sample" scaled game with absolutely no filtering.  Simple as that.

And remember MAME doesn't actually use the 3D processing of your card.  Don't be fooled when using the D3D blitter that you need some sort of 3D powerhouse - most 16MB D3D capable cards will handle the load just fine.

[krick]

For the best blur-free gaming, get a Direct3D capable card (doesn't have to be fast - any D3D capable card with 16MB of video memory will do).  Load up your game and tell it to remove all filtering.  You will have a 100% "point sample" scaled game with absolutely no filtering.  Simple as that.

And remember MAME doesn't actually use the 3D processing of your card.  Don't be fooled when using the D3D blitter that you need some sort of 3D powerhouse - most 16MB D3D capable cards will handle the load just fine.

16MB is definitely the minimum I'd go with.

If you want to run the new hi-res artwork with the new renderer in 107+, you need a lot more video memory than you used to, especially if you intend to run at a high resolution. Some of the uncompressed bezels are over 60MB at their full resolution so I'd set 64MB as a recommended amount of video memory.

Also, the new mame renderer requires DX8 or DX9 to be installed.  I'm not sure what it does if your card only supports DX7.

[gamecreature]

Elvis, I don't WANT to use the Intel card. The problem I'm having is that every other card I put in is fighting with the sound card and giving me a frame rate of less than 1 fps. After struggling with all of these  cards and device settings, the last thing I need is someone telling me that I don't want to use the graphics card that I'm trying to replace. Talk about doing some reading...

Sigh...