Silent dedicated 4-way/8-way sticks?

[Boris the Spider]

I just wrote a long post then my session timed out and I lost it! So heres the short version:

I'm building a three sided cocktail cabinet with 11" control panels on the head-to-head sides. After months of reading forums and reviews, I'm still very in the dark since I haven't had experience with any joysticks yet at all myself.

1) The sticks must be silent, no miroswitches.

2) I want to play mostly older arcade games from the 80's using the most authentic controls possible. Example, I want to play pacman and achieve higher levels then ever before when I used to pump quarters into it.

Since space is an issue, I originally thought I'd use switchable 8-way/4-way joysticks all around the table (like the happp 360 or newer ultimarc 360). After reading so much debate on this forum, I'm not sure the gameplay experience will allow me to master games like paman since it's not a dedicated stick.  So now I'm thinking of both a dedicated 4-way and a dedicated 8-way joystick to go on each of the head-2-head sides of my cocktail cabinet. Can anyone suggest two silent dedictaed 4 & 8 way joysticks. I don't see any options out there other than tracking down some original wico leafs.

...and yes, that was the short version.

[Kremmit]

The Wico's sound like your best hope if you require silence and true 4-way restriction.

I can think of five other options that might fit the bill.  They are all either more expensive or more work.  They are:

1) Buy an Ultrastick 360 from Ultimarc, and buy the restrictor kit for it.  Attach the restrictor in the 4-way orientation.  Use another U360 for your 8-way stick, so they'll match.
 
2) Find an old Perfect360 adaptor for a Happ Super.  (*note- when shopping for these adaptors, you have to be very careful, most of the ones you'll see fit a Wico base, not a Super.  Be sure.)  These are not made anymore, but they show up on ebay from time to time, or somebody here might be willing to part with one.  Basically, it screws on in place of the microswitches, and uses beams of infrared light instead, just like a regular P360.  Since the (8-way) Super base is identical to the (4-way) Reunion, you could mount one of these adaptors on a Happ Reunion and get a silent 4-way.  Use a regular Super with a P360 adaptor for an 8-way that'll match perfectly, or use a standard P360 for one that's pretty darn close.  *note-  Supers, Reunions, and P360s don't come with matching handles.  Matching handles can be had from TornadoTerry, GroovyGameGear, or SlikStik.

3)  Modify a Super and a Reunion base to use leafswitches instead of microswitches.  I've never seen anybody do it, but I don't see why it couldn't be done. 

4)  Build your own 4-way restrictor plate for a Happ Perfect360 or 49-way joystick.

5)  Find some of Oscar's add-on restrictor plates and use them with Happ Perfect360s or 49-ways.  These plates are getting very, very scarce.

[Boris the Spider]

Kremmit:

Thanks for the ideas! I considerd using restrictor plates but was still worried that they woldn't work perfectly for trying to master games. I read some things on this forum about people having a harder time perfecting a game like fast pacman using restrictor plates vs using a dedicated 4-way.

If I don't use restrictor plates, and use a Wico for my 4-way, what could I use for a silent true dedicated 8-way? Or does that not exist?

[Kremmit]

A Wico 8-way, of course!   

Or a 49-way, Ultimarc 360, Perfect360, or Suzo Inductive.  The Wico would be the best match, but the 49-way or U360 would also allow you to play additional games that just don't work right with an 8-way, so you might be willing to give up the exact match for the added capabilities.  Best arguement for the P360 or Suzo is that they're still available new, so you won't have to hunt for them, and you won't have to buy used.  The P360 will take a Wico handle, so you can get a handle match with your 4-way Wico if you go that route.

[Boris the Spider]

Oh man! Just when I thought I had it figured out. I forgot to consider what you mentioned about games that don't play right with an 8-way. Your talking about games like time pilot right? Where you need to have full motion?

With that said, I guess I'm looking a dedicated wico 4-way for each player, and then a Ultra 360 for each also. On the third panel,  I'm going to try to fit two Ultra 360s and one wico 4-way in the middle.  I just picked up a box of 20 Wicos on ebay and am waiting for those to arrive.  The seller said the all need a cleaning but none of the grommetts felt blown out, and some need eclips and such.  Two are wico "style" but the rest look legit. I'll know better once those arrive what I'm going to do.  If I decide to go with the 4-way and 8-way for ech player instead...and if there aren't any 8-way Wicos in that box (seller is slow responding my email about that), maybe I can open a thread to see if anyone wants to trade a 4-way wico for an 8-way wico.

Are parts available for Wicos or swappable from other manufacturers?

Thanks for talking this out with me...it helps a lot.

[bvicarious]

What is the difference between a 'dedicated 4-way' and an 8-way with a restrictor plate, mechanically? I thought the only thing that defined a 4-way joystick was the physical restriction from hitting the corners.

I've played pacman with a T-stik plus in 8-way mode and couldn't play for ---steaming pile of meadow muffin---, switched it to 4-way and it played like a charm. Then I forgot it was in 4-way mode when I started playing Street Fighter 2, and it frustrated me greatly.

[Kremmit]

Oh man! Just when I thought I had it figured out. I forgot to consider what you mentioned about games that don't play right with an 8-way. Your talking about games like time pilot right? Where you need to have full motion?

Nope, Time Pilot uses an 8-way.  Specifically, a Monroe joystick, which is a round-restricted 8-way, so a Wico 8 should work fine, as it's also a round-restricted 8-way.  I was thinking of games like SiniStar, I Robot, Road Runner, Star Wars, Food Fight, etc- games that need the analog stick's higher resolution to play right. 

With that said, I guess I'm looking a dedicated wico 4-way for each player, and then a Ultra 360 for each also. On the third panel,  I'm going to try to fit two Ultra 360s and one wico 4-way in the middle.]With that said, I guess I'm looking a dedicated wico 4-way for each player, and then a Ultra 360 for each also. On the third panel,  I'm going to try to fit two Ultra 360s and one wico 4-way in the middle.

That should work fine.  There'll still be a (very limited) # of joystick games that won't play right, but there always are unless you build a giant frankenpanel with 20 different controllers on it, or get into swapable panels or modular setups.  For instance, you can't play 2-player Smash TV, Karate Champ, or Ikari Warriors on that setup.

I just picked up a box of 20 Wicos on ebay ... Are parts available for Wicos or swappable from other manufacturers?

None of the parts are interchangeable with any other sticks, except the handles, which will swap with a P360- but why would you want to put a p360 handle on a Wico?  Nobody makes parts for them anymore, either.  However, replacement handles, small springs, and actuators are available from Ponyboy dirt cheap.  Ponyboy also has nice new replacement grommets, they feel softer than the stock ones but a lot of people don't mind that.  E-clips can be had at any decent hardware store.  Empty 4-way bases turn up on ebay from time to time, and peope here have been known to do trades as well.  The leafswitches, those are the real buggers.  I'm not aware of any source for them. 

What is the difference between a 'dedicated 4-way' and an 8-way with a restrictor plate, mechanically? I thought the only thing that defined a 4-way joystick was the physical restriction from hitting the corners.

There's no difference really, except you can remove/rotate the restrictor plate and change it back to 8-way.  That's why a lot of people like the Prodigy/T-Stick/Mag-Stick options- you don't have to have a 4-way AND an 8-way on your panel.  Not everybody likes the feel on those sticks, though- they've got square restriction, clicky microswitches, stiff springs, and a very short throw.  Comes down to personal preference, in the end.

[bvicarious]

isn't there a restrictor plate for j-sticks/happ supers/competitions et c. that force the joystick to slide along diagonals instead of in a circle, achieving 4-way control with light action and long throw? I thought I saw something like this awhile ago, sort of like a q-bert joystick.

[Kremmit]

Oscar Controls used to sell those restrictor plates.  It's been years since they were available now.

[Boris the Spider]

A Wico 8-way, of course!  

Or a 49-way, Ultimarc 360, Perfect360, or Suzo Inductive.  The Wico would be the best match, but the 49-way or U360 would also allow you to play additional games that just don't work right with an 8-way, so you might be willing to give up the exact match for the added capabilities.  Best arguement for the P360 or Suzo is that they're still available new, so you won't have to hunt for them, and you won't have to buy used.  The P360 will take a Wico handle, so you can get a handle match with your 4-way Wico if you go that route.

I wanted to do a search on MAWS for all the vertical games that need full motion like the ones you metioned...Sinistar etc...but  can't find how to search for optical joystick games. The options are 2-way, 4-way, 8-way..etc but I don't see an option to search for the types of games your refering to. Any suggestions? Id like to see a list of the vertical games that need an optical joystick to decide if its needed on my head-to-head sides of the table.

[NoOne=NBA=]

What is the difference between a 'dedicated 4-way' and an 8-way with a restrictor plate, mechanically?

There is none.

The dedicated 4-way is just that...dedicated to playing only 4-way games.
An 8-way can function as an 8-way, or as a 4-way when using the restrictor, and is therefore not dedicated.

[Kremmit]

I wanted to do a search on MAWS for all the vertical games that need full motion like the ones you metioned...Sinistar etc...but  can't find how to search for optical joystick games. The options are 2-way, 4-way, 8-way..etc but I don't see an option to search for the types of games your refering to. Any suggestions? Id like to see a list of the vertical games that need an optical joystick to decide if its needed on my head-to-head sides of the table.

I'm no MAWS expert, but a quick peek doesn't show me any good way to do that. 

There is a good list of 49-way games on the BYOAC Wiki, and a partial list of analog games as well.  It doesn't break them down by vertical/horizontal, so you'll have to look up any you don't know on KLOV or something.  Off the top of my head, I can' t think of a single vertical title that needs analog control, but that doesn't mean one doesn't exist. 

[Tiger-Heli]

What is the difference between a 'dedicated 4-way' and an 8-way with a restrictor plate, mechanically? I thought the only thing that defined a 4-way joystick was the physical restriction from hitting the corners.

Just to muddy the waters - there is no difference if we are talking about microswitch or P360 joysticks - Although sometimes it is a physical restrictor that prevents the stick from moving to the diagonals, and sometimes it is a smaller actuator that prevents this.

There are also options like the 49-way sticks with GPWiz49 DRS or the new Ultimarc U360 sticks which are basically analog sticks and use software/firmware to define 4-way modes, but don't have the physical restriction.

Basically, you could say there are three types of 4-way sticks

1)  Wico, Prodigies, Suzo 500s, Mag sticks, J-sticks - Where a physical diamond restrictor is used to limit motion, producing true 4-way feel.

2) Happ Supers, P360's in 4-way mode - Here a smaller actuator is used to keep the stick from registering two directions - however, there is no true restriction (changes the feel of the stick) and for Supers, it doesn't work very well

3) 49-ways, U360's - Again, no physical restriction, but software/firmware is very accurate in preventing accidental diagonals from registering.

[destructor]

Tiger-Heli, you can install restrictor plates (circle and square/diamond) for U360 as for J-Stik. U360 base is from J-Stik. Andy sell kit for it (I have one).

[Tiger-Heli]

Tiger-Heli, you can install restrictor plates (circle and square/diamond) for U360 as for J-Stik. U360 base is from J-Stik. Andy sell kit for it (I have one).

True, I forgot about that.

[Boris the Spider]

There is a good list of 49-way games on the BYOAC Wiki, and a partial list of analog games as well.  It doesn't break them down by vertical/horizontal, so you'll have to look up any you don't know on KLOV or something.  Off the top of my head, I can' t think of a single vertical title that needs analog control, but that doesn't mean one doesn't exist. 

I checked the Wiki listing. Pretty small list and all I can see is Sinistar for vertical games. I can do without that flying devil taunting me anyway. I guess I could always remove the restrictor plate from a U360 if I needed full motion.

1)  Wico, Prodigies, Suzo 500s, Mag sticks, J-sticks - Where a physical diamond restrictor is used to limit motion, producing true 4-way feel.

I recieved my box of Wicos the other day. It turns out they are almost all 8-ways...and only one 4-way.  So just to clear my confusion...Are there any third party restrcitor plates available to turn a 8-way wico into a 4-way. From what I've read, there doesn't seem to be...but now that I actually have these joysticks, I can see how they work. It seems to me that a strong thin piece of metal (with a diamond hole) could be fashioned to fit between the grommett and the mounting plate (instead of that plastic washer that's there now). Maybe that would be to far down the stick to restrcit movement??...just trying to think about this...has anyone fashioned their own restrictor plate for a Wico 8?

[Kremmit]

I've never seen anybody make one, but I don't see any reason why it couldn't be done.  I don't know if it would work in the position you describe, it might have to mount on top of the joystick if you find that it interferes in that spot.

[Boris the Spider]

The only thing is then I have to find a way to secure it on top...and I'm already pushing it by thinking I'll actually create something like this in the first place.  If mounted underneath, it would be self-securing if it sat between the mounting plate and the Grommet.

Here's another thought, I received two 4-way Wico "style" (those grey ones on ebay all the time) joysticks along with the rest of original 8-way Wicos. I was thinking of getting rid of those because I've read such bad things about them on this forum.  Then after I found out that the only difference between an 8-way and a 4-way Wico is the shape of the hole on the mounting plate, it occurred to me that maybe I could just use the mounting plate from the Wico "Style" stick and put it on the original Wico. I haven't taken those apart yet but they seem to be the same dimensions. Anyone ever done this? Does it effect the feel of the Wico?

[Searcher7]

The only thing is then I have to find a way to secure it on top...and I'm already pushing it by thinking I'll actually create something like this in the first place.  If mounted underneath, it would be self-securing if it sat between the mounting plate and the Grommet.

Here's another thought, I received two 4-way Wico "style" (those grey ones on ebay all the time) joysticks along with the rest of original 8-way Wicos. I was thinking of getting rid of those because I've read such bad things about them on this forum.  Then after I found out that the only difference between an 8-way and a 4-way Wico is the shape of the hole on the mounting plate, it occurred to me that maybe I could just use the mounting plate from the Wico "Style" stick and put it on the original Wico. I haven't taken those apart yet but they seem to be the same dimensions. Anyone ever done this? Does it effect the feel of the Wico?

What bad things have you read about the 4-way Wicos that are commonly sold on eBay?(Because I was about to pick some up).

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=002&item=120028966037

Thanks.

Darren

[Texasmame]

There was a thread recently on here about them.  I forget which forum.  Anyway, the reviews were negative.  Still, I'll probably try a pair for that price and do the duct tape trick or whatnot.

[Kremmit]

What bad things have you read about the 4-way Wicos that are commonly sold on eBay?(Because I was about to pick some up).

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=002&item=120028966037

Those aren't Wicos at all, they are Chinese knockoffs.  The screw-on leafswitches on the bottom are a dead giveaway, as is the round shape to the bottom portion of the base.  Interestingly, original Taito machines from around the Elevator Action era used a stick with a base that appears to be identical, but a much smaller balltop mounted on a shorter handle, and a cone-shaped actuator.  That may be the source of the molds the knockoff manufacturers use to make these.

The complaints about the knockoff are that the base has a diamond-shaped restrictor hole on bottom, and a round hole on top, which obviously isn't right; and that the handle fits loosely in the grommet, allowing some stick wobble. 

[Searcher7]

What bad things have you read about the 4-way Wicos that are commonly sold on eBay?(Because I was about to pick some up).

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=002&item=120028966037

Those aren't Wicos at all, they are Chinese knockoffs.  The screw-on leafswitches on the bottom are a dead giveaway, as is the round shape to the bottom portion of the base.  Interestingly, original Taito machines from around the Elevator Action era used a stick with a base that appears to be identical, but a much smaller balltop mounted on a shorter handle, and a cone-shaped actuator.  That may be the source of the molds the knockoff manufacturers use to make these.

The complaints about the knockoff are that the base has a diamond-shaped restrictor hole on bottom, and a round hole on top, which obviously isn't right; and that the handle fits loosely in the grommet, allowing some stick wobble. 

Ok.

I guess the hole can be corrected.(Especially if you're going to make it an 8-way). But is the loose joystick a result of the stick being under diameter or the grommet hole being too big?

Thanks a lot.

Darren

[Boris the Spider]

The balls on the knockoffs are plastic also...They are on the ones I have anyway...they look and feel horrible.

Well I guess since the complaints are mostly about the mounting plate holes, then I won't try to swap the plates.

[Kremmit]

I guess the hole can be corrected.(Especially if you're going to make it an 8-way). But is the loose joystick a result of the stick being under diameter or the grommet hole being too big?

I believe someone (RandyT??) said that the knockoff handles would fit a true Wico just fine, it was the grommet holes that were oversized.  A few wrappings of foil tape or somesuch could probably tighten them up, I guess.

But Darren, your posts make you look like somebody who's really concerned with getting the most exact reproduction of the original games and controls you can.  Why muck about with trying to fix a low-grade knockoff when you can pick up a real Wico on ebay or these boards?

[Searcher7]

I guess the hole can be corrected.(Especially if you're going to make it an 8-way). But is the loose joystick a result of the stick being under diameter or the grommet hole being too big?

I believe someone (RandyT??) said that the knockoff handles would fit a true Wico just fine, it was the grommet holes that were oversized.  A few wrappings of foil tape or somesuch could probably tighten them up, I guess.

But Darren, your posts make you look like somebody who's really concerned with getting the most exact reproduction of the original games and controls you can.  Why muck about with trying to fix a low-grade knockoff when you can pick up a real Wico on ebay or these boards?

The most exact feel, which doesn't necessarily mean exact replicas of the original.

And joystick controls are relatively easy to adjust and change to get the correct feel. And even when they don't have the original feel they almost always play the same way.

That doesn't apply to trackballs, spinners, or the Star Wars steering assembly I'm still looking to get.

Darren

[Boris the Spider]

I think I'm set on my joys. I'm going to use either two U360's or one U360 and a dedicated Wico. They will be mounted horizontally. I'm worried they may be too close together. Does anyone who uses two sticks like this find it difficult or find themselves banging their knuckles on the adjacent stick?

As for the buttons, I'd like to use Ponyboy's leaf switches on Ice buttons. The leaf switches are indicated in green in the image. The player 1 & 2 will be microswicthes. Does anyone else use leaf switches on their cocktail cabs? I'd be intersted to see how you handled the space. I got the measurements of the switches from one of Ponyboy's threads last year. The swicth sticks out 1 5/8" past the plunger...and the contacts add another 1/2". I don't know how wide they are though. Can someone tell me the width of these switches?... because one of my swicthes will have to fit in between the player 1 and player 2 buttons.

Anyone see a problem with this layout? I've considered moving the player 1 & 2 buttons, if space becomes an issue, and building them into the cabinet as I've seen done on other examples....so they won't have to be on the cp. I'm also not sure if the height of this cp is correct. I retraced the template from arcadedepot.com in photoshop and then scaled it (maintained aspect ratio) to the correct size in inches. There seems to be way to much space above the joysticks compared to pictures I've seen of these panels. Can someone tell me the height of the 11" panels from arcadedepot.com?

Thanks