Help with solder

[SithMaster]

yey another one of these topics.

okay trying to make a keyboard hack just for now and to practice.  i have 2 chips from my boards and they are both different.

the first had he mylar sheet connected directly into a connector block.  this one doesnt have teeth but rather metal contacts that are circles that are beneath the connector block.

the second has teeth.  it cannot solder anything to this one despite using sandpaper to scratch it a little.  the first would solder instantly.  however when i try and use keyhook with it nothing shows up.  so i tried sticking the wire into the block where mylar would dwell and that didnt work either.

so im either thinking i need flux----was going to get some but i just used the solder that came with my 30 watt iron since most newer solder has flux already.  any ideas on what to do?  i know its hard without video of me trying and all but if my description of the chips is confusing ill try and get some.  thanks.

[grantspain]

with the greatest respect-what the hell are you talking about ;Dhow about a lovely picture

[SithMaster]

heres the chip with the teeth.

and im looking for one with the connector block but it looks like something like an ide connector.

anyway what im wondering is if i need flux or if its something else that needs to be done to get the solder to stick to the teeth on one of the boards.

see on the other it had these circle metal contacts that were really easy to solder to.  the teeth are a problem since it wont stick despite some tips ive found.

and the part about me using wire to connect the contacts was just for a test to see of it would work before soldering.  but it didnt so either the board doesnt work or it did and i ruined it.

sorry if its a little confusing since i have problems wording things.  it seems fine when i write it but makes no sense.

[MaximRecoil]

That is a really tiny picture. What do you mean by "teeth"?

[Kevin Mullins]

The GOLD colored area?
(they LOOK like teeth?)
Or the silver soldered legs of the components in the green area?

And yeah, that pic showed up super tiny.....

[bvicarious]

I think he means the gold connectors on the card, called 'edge' or 'slot' connectors. I don't know why you would want to use a keyboard hack, but maybe you should look into getting a connector for it and soldering to those pins instead. A quick search brought up this, http://www.gadgettom.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=CARDEDGECON&Category_Code=WA

but you could probably just as easily desolder one from an old board.


I think thats what you're asking about anyway, correct me if i'm wrong.

[SithMaster]

yeah i got it off the controls part of the arcade site.

when i say teeth i mean the copper contacts that touch the mylar sheet in the keyboard.  i only use the term teeth because of spystyle's faq which you can only get through the internet archive.  heres a bigger pic



damn just about to post too.  yeah the pic is small first one i found.  i have problems with the gold part but i just read on extremetech i cant soler to them since it wont stick.  and they show that i can solder to the contacts above them.  so ill try to solder to the silver ones above the teeth.

someone will get confused by that.

[SithMaster]

yes i think you are right about what im trying to do.  i know i shouldnt use a hack when there are better options but for the time being and since i want to try to solder (ie practice) then why not.  this way if i get the keywiz i wont f it up.

i could get the connector but if im going to swap the hack out eventually why bother.

[crashwg]

First thing I would suggest is to get some flux.  It makes a WORLD of difference. 

Next would be to "tin" the wire.  "Tinning" is basically just applying a little bit of solder to the end of the bare wire.  Just twist it, dip it in the flux then hold the solder with one hand the wire with another and the iron with your other and bring them all together! 

Yes I realize I just listed three hands, that's why you'll need something to be held by something else whether that be a "third hand" type of device with an aligator clip and a weighted base or just sandwiching the wire between a couple books...

[SirPeale]

I've never had a problem soldering to the 'teeth'.  Even on the gold.

[SithMaster]

i was planning on gettng a third hand someone posted a link to for harborfreight.  but i did find out the board works only thing is the wires i did get soldered snapped off so i have to try again.

i did try tinning originally and when i did tin it worked however i wouldnt get a position key in keyhook.  im pretty sure the solder can conduct electricity?yes?  otherwise should i be trying to not get solder between the wire and the contact.

peale how many years have you been soldering?  like 11enty?  me like 4 days for like an hour each day.  jeez you just have to gloat in front of a beginner dont you.

[bvicarious]

http://homearcade.org/BBBB/conectas.html#edge

Might be easier to solder to those. Anyway, if you're just learning to solder, starting with something unconventional might not be the best way to learn.

[SithMaster]

i dont mean it has to be fully mapped and all i just it to allow a key to be viewed in keyhook.  as long as one shows up then thats fine otherwise the more the better.

[daywane]

good luck on your soldering.

just to let you know ( " i want to try to solder (IE practice) then why not.  this way if i get the keywiz i wont f it up. " )

I have the GP wiz
no soldering involved. Plug in a IDE cable, snip one end off. strip them, put wires in terminal block,
run more wires from terminal block to CP or 25 pin connectors like I am

I tried 3 key board hacks never got it right.
Game pad hacks work well. Side winder or PS1 gamepads are simple to solder
20 min. and you are done.

[Level42]

OK, being an electronics service repair man, here are my soldering tips:

1) NEVER use flux when soldering electronics !!!! Flux is for soldering water pipes !!!

2) The flux is inside of the solder. Because the solderings on that keyboard PCB are probably reasonably old, the flux on the outside of the soldering is gone. My pro tip that I learned at school: Take some solder and "re-solder" the old solderings. The flux in the new solder you hold to it will make the old solder go fluent. USE ONLY A TINY BIT OF SOLDER to do this !!!! Just enough to get it fluent, then remove the new solder immediatly, and remove soldering iron as soon as the old solder is completely fluent.

Work this way on all the solderings you want to make.

3) Pre-solder (don't know how to call it really in English) the wires you want to connect to the old solder spots. Your wires are stripped down WAY too long by the way, but actualy that is good now. First, twist the wires round with your thumb and indexfinger, so that you make it a "single" core. Next take some new solder and hold it to the wire, and hold the soldering iron to the wire (not the solder), You can "play" with this a bit if the solder doesn't start running, but the basic thing is that you let the solder do the work. Actualy it is a physical thing called "capular effect". Because of the air between the wires, the fluent solder gets drawn in "automaticaly". This is a basic thing you need to understand and apply, let the solder do the work, no smearing etc.

A good solder spot is never a ball, but always a "fuji" (yes like Atari's). So NOT like this:



You get these balls by using TOO much solder.

OK, when you prepaired all the wires this way, cut them with a good (sharp) pliers, and let the length be minimal, so minimal that they cannot short-circuit to eachother or the PCB's other solderings. I'd say 4 mm is ok.

Now WITHOUT using any new solder, hold the wires to the "old" solderings and use your soldering iron. Remember, don't solder too long, never more than 5 seconds.

Because you "renewed" the old solderings and because you pre-soldered the wires, it should now be easy to solder them together.
However, soldering wires in this way to a PCB it is very likely they get loose. Contrary to what a lot of people think, in electronics, a soldering is NOT a mechanical connection ! This is why a part is resting on a PCB, etc. SO you will have to fix the wires to the PCB in some way, so they won't move. A glue gun could be an option.

However, I'd still suggest to use a connector. My tips work with connectors too by the way, first solder the connector lip, then the wire, then without adding new solder, solder them together....



Jeeez, there's a lot of "solder" in this posting

More soldering info:
http://www.epemag.wimborne.co.uk/solderfaq.htm

[ChadTower]

3) Pre-solder (don't know how to call it really in English) the wires you want to connect to the old solder spots.

Great advice.  I had tons of trouble learning to solder at first.  Turned out my cheap Radio Shack 40W pencil iron, combined with some crappy solder, was working against me.  Learning is much easier with a decent tool (it's worth the investment if you want to learn for this hobby) and buy some fresh solder.

The English term he's searching for, I believe, is either tinning or wetting.  I've seen both.

Look here for a great explanation of soldering.

[SithMaster]

alright now youve worried me on the iron.  i got mine from radioshack for 8 dollars 30 watt i think.

i was tinning the wire but it still wouldnt stick to the copper.  o well i went back to the other keyboard chip and when i finished soldering the wires would generate a keypress.  i still need more practice but it was a good learning experience.

any recommendations on thickness of solder?  mainly electronics like wires to a pcb.  thanks for the tips.

[ChadTower]

alright now youve worried me on the iron.  i got mine from radioshack for 8 dollars 30 watt i think.

There is nothing wrong with the 30 watt pencil.  It will be harder to learn with, though, as you have no control over the temperature (nor does it).

any recommendations on thickness of solder?  mainly electronics like wires to a pcb.  thanks for the tips.

Yeah, use the thickness that allows you to easily make solder joints of the appropriate size.  When in doubt err on the thin side and just put a bit more on.

[Level42]

There you go: tinning is actualy exactly the same word we use here...(vertinnen)...but I thought it would look stupid HAHA 

Anyway, it's better to have a litlle more power on the iron. An iron with not enough power will take a long time to heat the part (and solder) enough to let it get fluent. Doing this heats up the part and can damage it. A more powerful iron takes less time to reach the fluent fase of the solder, so you can apply it in a shorter time.

I think the 30 W should be enough. What also is important is that your iron tip is in good condition. Clean it. And tin it !!! Put some solder on the tip and let it float. This is the one time you may use plenty of solder. Then, to get rid of the surplus either "slam"/shake it off but be carefull with this, aim at a direction that can take the hot bulbs of tin...guess this is not really a safe practice but it is the best way. Another way is using a very wet sponge, but the solder tends not to "let loose" of the tip when you use that method. Now you should end up with a nice shining tinned tip.
If you're not able to do this, get a new tip. By the way, your tip could be a bit thinner if your going to buy a new one anyway.

Personaly, I like my solder to be as thin as possible, especialy for PCB repairs. But generelay the thinner the solder, the easier it floats.

Of course, the best soldering iron is a soldering station. This has no real weight in the iron itself and has temperature control. But they are pretty expensive for the occasional use.

[shardian]

This is the one I got. Works great.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000BASSKI/sr=8-1/qid=1156449704/ref=pd_bbs_1/103-2127433-4255029?ie=UTF8

[ChadTower]

DANGER DANGER DANGER WILL ROBINSON DANGER LEARN TO SOLDER WILL ROBINSON

[daywane]

I use a 15w pencil iron and a 25w pencil iron
I found out I used to thick of solder before.
The first PS1, I moded came with a kit.
A few strips of VERY fine solder ( not much thicker than a piece of hair)
and a 15w pencil iron
I took the solder to radio shack and stucked up on it

tinning a tip is my hardest thing to do. (just have not got the hang of it yet)
soo... I keep a stack of tips handy 
I really do. i have 3, 15w tips and 4, 25w tips new in package right here in front of me

[Level42]

DANGER DANGER DANGER WILL ROBINSON DANGER LEARN TO SOLDER WILL ROBINSON

Black & Decker soldering irons ?? Now I've seen everything....

However, this is NOT a soldering station. This is simply a soldering iron with a stand.
Nothing wrong with that, but don't be conceived.

The best of the best in soldering is Weller. Expensive but they last a lifetime. I've personaly got a very simple station with a fixed temperature (controlled by a ferro magnet in the iron) and it works great. I guess the current version of that station is this:
http://www.cooperhandtools.com/brands/CF_Files/model_detail.cfm?upc=037103001146
Mine is over 20 years old. I also use their Pyropen WST2 gas iron profesionaly in the field.

http://www.cooperhandtools.com/brands/weller/index.cfm

[MaximRecoil]

The best of the best in soldering is Weller.

I'll take a Metcal MX-500 over any Weller any day of the week. Weller handpieces feel like a 2x4 compared to the Metcal handpiece. Our Wellers used to sit in boxes collecting dust while everyone used the Metcals.

Wellers are high quality to be sure, they just don't have the ergonomics of a Metcal, nor the ease of hot swapping the tips.

[SirPeale]

peale how many years have you been soldering?  like 11enty?  me like 4 days for like an hour each day.  jeez you just have to gloat in front of a beginner dont you.

Actually, not that long.  Only started getting good at it in the last year.

First time I tried soldering, it was for a keyboard hack.

I effectively cooked the PCB.  Luckily I didn't pay anything for the keyboard.

Did something similar with the next one.

Finally got some junk PCBs from stuff I was going to toss, started to practice.

One hint: solder flows UP. 

Okay, two hints: don't heat the solder, heat the part you're soldering.

*sigh* three hints...make sure your solder tip is CLEAN.  And HOT.  Even though most texts say keep the heat at low as possible, I've found that the hotter your tip is, the better luck I have.  That way you're in and out very quickly.

[daywane]

I agree with all above
from Peale
by the way Peale who is the girl in your PIC.?
I hope not your sister or anything like that. One hot girl 
don't want to google any members family here
Chad .... Your set up is better than mine.
was not to long ago I had a HUGE iron and a glass dinner plate and a wet rag
now I have a radio shack plastic plate, sponge, spring and 2 irons
11yr old girl to hold my work unless 7th heaven is on  then I am on my own

[NightGod]

That's Michelle Trachtenberg. Who obviously needs to star in more movies and TV shows.

[Level42]

The best of the best in soldering is Weller.

I'll take a Metcal MX-500 over any Weller any day of the week. Weller handpieces feel like a 2x4 compared to the Metcal handpiece. Our Wellers used to sit in boxes collecting dust while everyone used the Metcals.

Wellers are high quality to be sure, they just don't have the ergonomics of a Metcal, nor the ease of hot swapping the tips.

Sorry, I've never heared of that brand before. But they are about twice the price of a good Weller station. 500 bucks for a soldering station....I thought the 250 for a Weller was already very expensive....

[MaximRecoil]

Sorry, I've never heared of that brand before. But they are about twice the price of a good Weller station. 500 bucks for a soldering station....I thought the 250 for a Weller was already very expensive....

I worked for 2 years in a PCB factory inspecting and soldering about 1,000 boards a night; through-hole terminal blocks on every board and surface-mount rework if the SMT machines messed up. These were boards for elaborate fire alarm systems, like would go in a school or a hospital. The boards were classified as "life saving equipment" so they were pretty fussy about how things were done.

The Metcal is a joy to work with. The handpiece is slim and ergonomic, and it positions your hand down close to the tip, giving you far greater control than a typical handpiece that has your hand somewhere near the middle of the iron. To illustrate the difference in control to yourself, try to write with neat penmanship while grasping a pencil in the middle vs. holding it normally down near the tip of the pencil.

Also, Metcal's tip cartridges simply slide into the handpiece and snap in place, and can be easily changed in seconds even while hot. My favorite tip was what we called a "hockey stick" tip which was the perfect size, shape and angle for most everything, from typical through-hole to fine-pitch SMT. Imagine holding an iron down close to the tip much like a pencil, and when you rest your hand down against the board, similar to if you were going to do some writing, the way the tip is shaped and angled naturally positions it flat against the pad and the post that you are about to solder. They are very nice instruments. I only spent a fraction of a second to position the iron against the pad and post and push the solder in on each joint, with perfect fillets every time.

I tried a Weller one night; there were plenty of them kicking around from before they bought all the Metcals, and it drove me nuts. I know they are high quality stations but I couldn't imagine doing production work with one; they are so cumbersome in comparison to a Metcal.

It sounds like you are an experienced solderer; I'm willing to bet that you'd love a Metcal if you tried one. There are usually a few used ones on eBay at any given time, so you don't necessarily have to pay $500 for one. I wish I owned one, but I don't really do enough soldering at home to justify the cost of a Metcal. I make do with my $7 Radio Shack Special   .

[MonMotha]

For the record, there definately is flux suitable for electronics use.  Your solder has some in the middle (hence the rosin-core).  There's actually a whole bunch of different kinds.  It's mostly useful when doing some odder stuff (like soldering fine-pitch SMT packages or tinning large amounts of wire very quickly).  NEVER use acid flux or acid core solder for electronics work.  Your board will be gone in a few years.

I have a Weller WESD-51.  Fry's Electronics sells them for about $200.  For the price, it's very, very nice.  It has digital temp control (F/C), so you can just dial up the exact temp you want and it'll hold it (as well as it can).  It's a 50W iron, so it can hold temp even on fairly thermally "heavy" loads (I actually desoldered a heatsink with it earlier today).  It's not Metcal, but I like it a lot, and it didn't cost me $500+.  Metcal is pretty much the end-all, be-all name as far as general purpose soldering gear goes.  Some of their irons are so advanced that they'll detect when the solder actually melts and adjust heat immediately.

For casual use, the $7 Shadio Rack special will work fine.  They also sell a little stand that you'll find very useful.  I might also recommend getting an old floor tile and using that as a surface.  They're great thermally, solder doesn't (usually) stick to them, and aren't horrible from an ESD point of view.  If you don't have a stand with a sponge, get a sponge.  There are special soldering iron sponges, but a high-density kitchen sponge will work, too.  You don't want it soaking wet, just moist.  Use it to clean oxidation, flux residue, excess solder, and debris off your tip.  Use distilled water, if you've got it.

Oh, and remember that hotter isn't always better.  The big thing is that you're heating up a sometimes large thermal mass, so you'll cool everything down momentarily when you touch the work.  I usually keep my tip at 325-350C.  Some say that's a bit hot, but I find it works well.  If you go over 400C, you'll start scorching standard FR-4 boards, and that's never good.

EDIT: One more thing: use fairly new solder.  Nothing more than 5-8 years old.  The flux breaks down over time, and the old stuff usually just gets plain nasty.  Radio Shack solder is actually not bad stuff, and I've had good luck with Alpha Metals as well as of course Kester.

[MaximRecoil]

Radio Shack solder is actually not bad stuff, and I've had good luck with Alpha Metals as well as of course Kester.

Alpha Metals Cleanline SMT Core Plus in .025 and .015 diameters is what we used at work. Very good stuff. I still have a couple rolls of it here at home.

[danny_galaga]

That's Michelle Trachtenberg. Who obviously needs to star in more movies and TV shows.

she could be my friend 

[ChadTower]

One hint: solder flows UP. 

I keep reading that in all sorts of posts but I find it's not true.  Every time I've soldered, the solder doesn't flow *up*, it flows *towards the heat source*.  I  think it's just coincedental that the heat source is up most of the time when soldering.

That was one of my big difficulties.  Everyone kept telling me it always flows up but I had a bunch of coils I had to solder from the underside of the lug.  I could not get the solder to flow up the way I was told it would.  It just kept flowing down and falling off.  It was because it was flowing towards the heat source, which was down.  Putting the solder above the lug, with the heat source under it, caused it to flow smoothly across the lug, through the hole, towards the iron tip and make a good joint.

Daywayne... I do have a very nice station now.  It's a Weller, noncontrolled but it regulates very well, probably 30 years old.  Got it off Freecycle for free.

The last tip I can offer is to think about heat management.  That is the key.  You're not managing the iron, or the solder, or the joint.  Manage the heat.  Think about where the heat is, where it needs to go, and how you're putting it there.  When you get that you'll be a good solderer.

[MaximRecoil]

I keep reading that in all sorts of posts but I find it's not true.  Every time I've soldered, the solder doesn't flow *up*, it flows *towards the heat source*.

Well, not necessarily. It is true that directions such as "up" are irrelevant in soldering, but solder flows not only toward the heat source but evenly to all areas that are hot enough. The heat is key but it is not only the heat source that is hot enough to flow solder. For example, with a typical through-hole solder joint, you would press your iron to the pad and post on one side and press the solder in from the other side. The solder not only flows toward the heat source (the iron) but also flows on the other side where you are pressing the solder in, without having to move the iron. That is because the pad and post conducted enough heat from the iron to the other side that it is hot enough to flow solder. You could have the board oriented in any direction: up, down, sideways; it wouldn't change a thing other than where excess solder would go due to gravity if you used too much.

[ChadTower]

I always attributed that to the fact that some stays in the path it took.  You don't see liquids flowing without leaving a trail behind... makes sense, though.

[MaximRecoil]

I always attributed that to the fact that some stays in the path it took.  You don't see liquids flowing without leaving a trail behind... makes sense, though.

In order to illustrate it to yourself you could do some "backwards" soldering. Set up a typical through-hole joint and press your iron to the pad and post and wait a few seconds for the heat to conduct to all areas of the pad and post. Then press the solder in from the same side that the iron is touching. You will find that the solder will still flow around to the other side, which is away from the heat source (iron), but still keeping with the fact that solder will flow evenly to all solderable areas that are hot enough to flow solder.

[Level42]

Wow, I think we got enough info for a Wikipedia topic here

MaximRecoil: The Metcals look sweet. Every word you say about them must be true, indeed a very nice looking handle. When you're doing work like you described, you absolutely need a tool like that, no doubt ! I'm sure I would love the Metcals.

The funny thing is that (currently) I work as a Service Engineer in the Fire Alarm business. I come in when the installers are done, check everything, program the systems and test them. Also do inspections and service calls.(Mostly the tough ones).
So I recognize what you say about the importance of reliable solderings. I delivered a new system into service the other day, and everthing was fine when I left. Next day I get called that the fire brigade tested the system and the manual button for activating the slow whoops didn't work. I told them to push it for at least a second, still no go. Went back, and discovered there was a bad soldering at a connector on the PCB. It made contact when I was there, but not when the fire brigade tested. This could also have happened AFTER they tested, so everyone would think things were OK. Could have cost lives indeed.....

Anyway, I've had jobs where I did a lot of soldering (PC monitors repair) but now it's very little, only once in a while (like the situation above, fixed it with my Pyropen )
Privatly I rarely solder, only when doing some TV/Audio repairs f.i.. Haven't soldered anything on my cabs yet....no real need so far. But I do have a very old Weller station. Got it from a friend who didn't need it anymore. Else, I would be using a very simple iron too. But it is a joy to work with that station instead of a "regular" iron.

[ChadTower]

In order to illustrate it to yourself you could do some "backwards" soldering. Set up a typical through-hole joint and press your iron to the pad and post and wait a few seconds for the heat to conduct to all areas of the pad and post. Then press the solder in from the same side that the iron is touching. You will find that the solder will still flow around to the other side, which is away from the heat source (iron), but still keeping with the fact that solder will flow evenly to all solderable areas that are hot enough to flow solder.

A lot of it would flow back onto the iron's tip in that scenario, yes?  That is what used to happen to me when I did it that way.

[MaximRecoil]

A lot of it would flow back onto the iron's tip in that scenario, yes?  That is what used to happen to me when I did it that way.

Shouldn't have any more flowing onto the tip than usual assuming you have allowed enough time for the whole pad and post to heat up enough to flow the solder correctly.

[ChadTower]

I probably don't allow enough time fairly often.